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Hey guys I don't want to come across as a complainer, but I got tabled before my first turn and it just seems like something is going wrong. All I did was drive 20 minutes, set up for 30 or whatever, and then he got 1st turn and killed everything with a charge I couldn't stop.


I used my Eldar, we played 1250 points.
Jason's list was something very like this:

Maelific Lord
Maelific Lord
Edit: not MLords sorry, Chaos Lord and Apostle
10 Chaos Culties
10 Chaos Culties
13 Korn Beserkers with Chainswor and Chainaxe, plus a Sergeant with Power fist
13 Korn Beserkers with Chainswor and Chainaxe, plus a Sergeant with Power fist
13 Korn Beserkers with Chainswor and Chainaxe, plus a Sergeant with Power fist
3 Obliterators

Front line assault, big guns never tire.
So I guess you can see how it went already, the lords and culties started on the table and the korns went to reserve with that Alpha strategem. Then they came out 9" away and moved up 6 so they can charge everything in my army. The oblitorators put just 8 damage on the wave serpent because I had serpent stones, and then the beserkers charged.
Not just the guardians but declared the charge on everyone behind them, and did a 3' charge and killed everthing then consolidated and piled in and killed everything else with a second attack. The wave serpent died last but then it was gg.

it left me feeling like I am not very good at 40k but I dunno. 3 inch charges are not hard to make.




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ps Jason didn't enjoy it very much. he did for the first part when he was rolling D and killing, but didnt enjoy actually winning like that.
Just sayin

I am confused. How did he deepstike 9" away and then move 6"?

yeah he brought a tourney list. One of the top two basic list types.

Had same experience vs IG. It wasn't complete tabling but it would be turn 2.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729779.page

Happened some time ago. Now scions are a bit more expensive but it can still happen as they're not THAT much more expensive.

Yep, that's what Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers can do. I guess being a frenzied, bloodthirsty brute doesn't hinder your ability to sneak up on just about anyone.

Khorne commandoes.

Anywayz, keep in mind that this trick is only so devastating if he gets 1-st turn. You can only counter it with cheap bauble wrap or your own mass deepstrikers. So, you basically need ig allies to spam conscripts.

If those were actually 'Malefic Lords', the ones from the Forgeworld Index, then it shouldn't have been possible, as I believe a CSM HQ is needed for most detachments, in order for the detachment to be fully Alpha Legion and thus use the Forward Operatives stratagem.

Yet, I do recognize it is a powerful tactic.

I guess the best thing to do is in the future is spread your units out more, so that each Berserker squad can only attack one thing at a time. Also put squishier and/or more valuable units behind [like, 5 or more inches behind] expendable or tough units so that they can deal with the Berserkers afterwards.

Maybe try out some Wraithguard with those special flamers? They'd punish the Berserkers for getting too close.

Malefic lord is Renegades and Heretic not CSM i thought.

Can you use cheap Malefic lords (30ppm) instead of the cheapest hq for csm (76+ppm)?

Well, he played wrong. When he charged, he can´t attack the units, which he consolidated in, even with the special rule of the berserkers. After a charge you can only hit the units you declared a charge against.

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
Well, he played wrong. When he charged, he can´t attack the units, which he consolidated in, even with the special rule of the berserkers. After a charge you can only hit the units you declared a charge against.

You can declare a multicharge, and if you can get within 1" of any of your targets the charge is successful and you'll be able to consolidate/attack any of your targets. That's probably how he destroyed a first unit, then used consolidate + pile in to move within 1" of a second and attack it. As long as he declared a charge against both units it's valid.

You got chumped. He brought an illegal version of a top tier tournament list. With no CSM HQ there's no way for his zerkers to have access to stratagems.

I'd really like too know how he moved after arriving from deepstrike and still charged. There's apsychic power that does that, but do Malefic have it?

There are some things really iffy about the game you're describing.

Earth127 wrote:
I'd really like too know how he moved after arriving from deepstrike and still charged. There's apsychic power that does that, but do Malefic have it?

There are some things really iffy about the game you're describing.

Alpha legion strategem, which is identical to ravenguard strategem. It allows to deploy a unit anywhere not closer than 9" from the opponent before the game starts.

Earth127 wrote:
I'd really like too know how he moved after arriving from deepstrike and still charged. There's apsychic power that does that, but do Malefic have it?

There are some things really iffy about the game you're describing.

What the Zerkers did was infiltrate, not deep strike; Alpha Legion have a stratagem that lets you place a unit 9" away before the first turn begins, which means that when your turn starts you can move as normal. It's an incredibly powerful ability, though with the downside of leaving your models out to dry if you get second turn.

Nevertheless, without a pure CSM detachment he should not have been able to use the stratagem. The Malefic Lord HQ's make it a Chaos detachment, which means no stratagems.

Is the stratagem allowed to be used 3 times just because it's outside of normal "phases?"

I would have assumed that the intent would be for it to be only used once.

Hmm I tought that stratagem didn't let you move, well it just became a lot more powerfull.

Your friend is a dink for playing that kind of cheese outside of a tourny. Give them a smack.

 Purifier wrote:
Is the stratagem allowed to be used 3 times just because it's outside of normal "phases?"

I would have assumed that the intent would be for it to be only used once.

You can, yes. Have to pay for each use individually, of course.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Your friend is a dink for playing that kind of cheese outside of a tourny. Give them a smack.

Pretty sure this is band at most tournaments so he would also be a dink there.

Unless you missed an HQ option it's not a legal 'Alpha Legion' list: taking Malefic Lords makes the detachment ineligible for Legion Tactics as they're non-Legion keyword. So as written he should not have been able to use the Alpha Legion Stratagem.

And iirc the discussion properly in regards to the timing of the stratagem with the stratagem he has to set them up BEFORE you guys have determined who gets first turn with the trade off that they don't count as having conducted a 'deep strike' as they arrived outside of the turn structure. But I could be wrong - this Stratagem (shared with Raven Guard for SM) is still one that GW hasn't clarified effectively yet.

Still, other than that this is one of the flavors of Chaos list that have been in the top 10 of recent tourneys next to Imperial Soup lists.

Apart from the fact that your opponent list is illegal and surely not suited for casual play even if corrected, you also are at fault for what happened. You probably didn't know how forward operatives works and how zerkers work.

Zerkers cannot hurt anything that is further than 12" at the start of the charge phase, so you just put a line of troops on the edge of your deployment and everything else further than 9" from there. This way you will lose your troops, but you will have a chance to fight back.

To those saying its illegal... It depends on the way he arranged his detachments....

If one of his units was in an auxiliary support detachment, that would be a pure legion detachment, and therefore unlock the required strategems.

secretForge wrote:
To those saying its illegal... It depends on the way he arranged his detachments....

If one of his units was in an auxiliary support detachment, that would be a pure legion detachment, and therefore unlock the required strategems.

No, this doesn't work -- you may want to reread the rules for unlocking the stratagems.


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But anyway, as others have said this is a very cheesy sort of list and you should really just refuse to play it. The Alpha Legion stratagem is a bizarre mechanic that takes the existing first turn advantage and cranks it up to 11.

secretForge wrote:
To those saying its illegal... It depends on the way he arranged his detachments....

If one of his units was in an auxiliary support detachment, that would be a pure legion detachment, and therefore unlock the required strategems.

The Stratagem itself only works on 'Alpha Legion Infantry' so all three squads would need to be Alpha Legion in order to have been eligible for the stratagem. And as Dionysodorus pointed out - Auxiliary Support detachments don't unlock stratagems.

Yep, that's filthy strong.

Remember also - Eldar are incredibly weak right now. I can't think of an army I could take which could cope with that at the moment (and I own models to run basically anything). At 1250 you don't even have much to sacrifice or hide behind.

That being said, this is why I don't play spammy tournament lists like that - where's the fun in that?

Your opponent's list is illegal and he potentially assaulted illegally too, and you apparently deployed poorly. It's hardly surprising that you got an extreme result out of it.

fake news

When playing a game it should be fun for both sides, at least that's how I see it.

I had to make an edit, it was the chaos lord and apostle, not Maelfic lords.
The game wasn't long enough for the HQ choice to really be a factor if you know what I mean.

Spoletta wrote:

Zerkers cannot hurt anything that is further than 12" at the start of the charge phase, so you just put a line of troops on the edge of your deployment and everything else further than 9" from there. This way you will lose your troops, but you will have a chance to fight back.

that sounds like a good tip thanks but I don't really know what to do with it in a game like this Front Line Assault deployment. Same as with Dawn of war, I just don't know where the space is supposed to be and those are common maps?

Interesting. I was also under the impression you could use the infiltrate-stratagem only once.

Inversely, if you can use stratagems multiple times before the actual game ("outside a phase"), couldn't counter it by re-rolling the seize initiative roll for as long as you have command points?