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Making jacks an actual part of the game makes MK3 a huge step forward regardless of anything else for me. In a lot of ways, I see MK3 as the game I wanted when I bought MK2 even if that's at the cost of the game I learned to love despite not being what I expected.

As much as a lot of the business changes have been disappointing, I can't really fault PP for them as they've been pretty industry wide. For any reasonably large company we lost the volunteer programs and its been a concerted effort to limit online discounting. I'm not sure exactly why PP seems to have taken most of the tar from those actions (though I think MK2's growth was more reliant on those things than other games) but they've definitely lost more face than Steamforge or FFG when they put in place the same policies.

Personally, I'm finding the game more fun than ever when I put models on the table and play, but ultimately I'm finding myself driven elsewhere by a community that's become pretty dedicated to ensuring its own destruction, regardless of what PP does at this point.


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 Kalamadea wrote:
Oh, I agree that PP has done little to appease players the last few years. I'm just pointing out that that this isn't the end of the world announcement that people are screaming about, there's no mention of changes to currently produced models whatsoever, and it makes total sense to put these types of models direct only, just like the Extreme sculpts and IF they sell well, move them over to regular production.

FYI, they already clarified that existing products available at retail will remain available to retail and anything made out of HIPS will also be released through normal distribution and not via Black Anchor.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Kalamadea wrote:
...it makes total sense to put these types of models direct only, just like the Extreme sculpts and IF they sell well, move them over to regular production.

FYI, they already clarified that existing products available at retail will remain available to retail and anything made out of HIPS will also be released through normal distribution and not via Black Anchor.

Excellent, just proves my point that the announcement was only about new products going forward (I wasn't clear in that quote but I had meant that it makes sense for these new niche models, not current colossals). People had been losing their minds over this and I'm not sure a lot were actually reading the announcement for what it was and instead reading a lot more into it, like the misleading title of this thread, for instance. PP hasn't "moved" anything over to direct only, they're coming out with new products in a new line as direct only, quite a difference and despite all the many glaring issues with the game and with the company, this one ain't so bad.

 LunarSol wrote:
I see a lot of vitriol at their behavior but honestly its just been constant overreactions to change of any sort. At least half the changes have been direct responses to the cries of the community before MK3 that turned around and spit when they got what they asked for.

I've been playing since the start of MK2 and while there's been changes, none of them have fundamentally changed the game itself afaic. The community, on the other hand, has just become kind of spoiled and toxic. I can honestly say I hang out a lot more on Dakka these days in a large part because there isn't a lot of Warmachine talk here and I know whatever PP does these days, the community is going to react in the most miserable way I can imagine.

Would you say they complain like they have a pair?


I always had the impression that PP fostered a competitive atmosphere bordering on the toxic since the beginning. Much of their early success was due to their position as The Opposition in the HHhobby, wasn't it? Now they are everything they've brought their customers to resent and it's biting them in the pair.


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Ninja'ed by Thanatos. Oh well.

Seems like a good business move, honestly. You cannot expect stores to stock lots of $100+ kits for which players only ever really need to buy 1 of. Makes no sense to stuff FLGSes with boxes that will not sell on the regular.

Don't get me wrong; I actually love the competitive environment and find it a healthier approach to gaming in general. I'm definitely not someone who finds powerful lists and pushing the rules to their limits to win inherently toxic.

What I have found self destructive is a preoccupation with optimal matchups and the inability to appreciate that the system is dynamic enough that you can make a game out of a 40:60 if you just put a little faith in the game beyond list building.

PP definitely hasn't always helped this with the existence of some degeneratively oppressive warcasters, but their efforts to clean that up have been just another way the community has decided to throw tantrums. I was quite enjoying the direction the game was headed, but the rest of the crowd seems much happier now that they've massively overbuffed Cryx and warped the meta around them again. My gut tells me that has something to say about the community all on its own.

Well... The Dragodille looks nice. Not sure that I'd get it for my skorne, but, it's an impressive model. I was very excited about MK3, and when it came out I enjoyed playing it. I felt like they had improved a lot, but, I"m not a consistent player, so, I don't really see the flaws as easily. I liked MK2 as well, but I didn't think it was that much in need of an update.

I like the concept of this 'sub-company', but, it feels like the wrong direction for them. They need to re-engage their fans, and start getting people excited in their world again. The rules issues in MK3 definitely has hurt them. And the forum issues, and release of the very out of context 'Grymkin', certainly didn't help things.

I would hope they can rectify things a bit, and really figure out what makes people love their games again. I just hope we don't see more '1-off' board games, card games, and other things that don't seem to work for them in the near future.

I've updated the thread title to more accurately reflect the link posted in the OP (which folks should read if they haven't yet). Thanks for the discussion along those lines here!

The only bummer regarding the Dracodile is that it looks designed for injection molding, like the gatorman unit, but is being done in resin. As a resin model I think they could've done things differently (and likely with more detail). Of course, that's just my opinion / speculation, though!

 LunarSol wrote:
I see a lot of vitriol at their behavior but honestly its just been constant overreactions to change of any sort. At least half the changes have been direct responses to the cries of the community before MK3 that turned around and spit when they got what they asked for.

I've been playing since the start of MK2 and while there's been changes, none of them have fundamentally changed the game itself afaic. The community, on the other hand, has just become kind of spoiled and toxic. I can honestly say I hang out a lot more on Dakka these days in a large part because there isn't a lot of Warmachine talk here and I know whatever PP does these days, the community is going to react in the most miserable way I can imagine.

I think a lot of it is buyer's remorse of a sort. Many people got into Warmahordes for their disdain with Games Workshop. Once people began hyping Kirby's departure and things (apparently) improved, the hyped for 8th, and it didn't turn out horrible, people felt like they had to distance 'emselves from PP as hard as possible. So of course they aim to gak on them as much as possible, laughing off the idea they could ever love anybody but GW and going "h-haha, see! s-see! I knew it would fail!"

Despite their faults, I still feel PP have managed to create a very good game in MkIII, significantly better than MkII. I'm honestly a bit surprised at all the negativity.

7th edition 40k was a train wreck, 8th is better but still not anywhere near WMH quality as a game. GW have nice models and more room for creativity, but that's basically it. I don't find either WMH or 40k to have especially engaging fluff, but I'm not really into fiction anyway.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I see a lot of vitriol at their behavior but honestly its just been constant overreactions to change of any sort. At least half the changes have been direct responses to the cries of the community before MK3 that turned around and spit when they got what they asked for.

I've been playing since the start of MK2 and while there's been changes, none of them have fundamentally changed the game itself afaic. The community, on the other hand, has just become kind of spoiled and toxic. I can honestly say I hang out a lot more on Dakka these days in a large part because there isn't a lot of Warmachine talk here and I know whatever PP does these days, the community is going to react in the most miserable way I can imagine.

I think a lot of it is buyer's remorse of a sort. Many people got into Warmahordes for their disdain with Games Workshop. Once people began hyping Kirby's departure and things (apparently) improved, the hyped for 8th, and it didn't turn out horrible, people felt like they had to distance 'emselves from PP as hard as possible. So of course they aim to gak on them as much as possible, laughing off the idea they could ever love anybody but GW and going "h-haha, see! s-see! I knew it would fail!"

Yes, yes. Honest criticism can never actually be honest criticism. It has to be weird nonsensical tribalism.

+1 Voss, yeah. I totally am with "people moved to PP to get away from GW," but I think that GW's revival of fan interest is more coincidence than anything (though I'm sure it hurts PP's sales because fans of both, with finite spending money, are probably going to go with revived excitement in a game that's gaining traction than one that's going poorly).

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
+1 Voss, yeah. I totally am with "people moved to PP to get away from GW," but I think that GW's revival of fan interest is more coincidence than anything (though I'm sure it hurts PP's sales because fans of both, with finite spending money, are probably going to go with revived excitement in a game that's gaining traction than one that's going poorly).

Things would be better if Mk III has rolled out better. I feel like PP really shot themselves in the foot last year.

Mk3 was released with little coordination, and then quickly revised under the ridicule of the playerbase, before vast arrays of errata being needed to fix the factions, ultimately forcing PP to discontinue the cards as the mainstay format, and then switched the design format over to a player based system.

I'd hardly call that a succesful launch. Despite this, people seem to be in agreement that MK 3 is better than 2. For the most part, at launch MK 3 seemed to be a series of Quality of Life fixes rather than a 3rd edition.
After all the erratas and what not, it looks like a 4th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

...
What I have found self destructive is a preoccupation with optimal matchups and the inability to appreciate that the system is dynamic enough that you can make a game out of a 40:60 if you just put a little faith in the game beyond list building.

PP definitely hasn't always helped this with the existence of some degeneratively oppressive warcasters, but their efforts to clean that up have been just another way the community has decided to throw tantrums. I was quite enjoying the direction the game was headed, but the rest of the crowd seems much happier now that they've massively overbuffed Cryx and warped the meta around them again. My gut tells me that has something to say about the community all on its own.

This is everything wrong with my local community, and ultimately why my friends and I no longer play the game.
Nothing kills the fun-boner like pulling out your army and your opponent packing up his.

I laugh at the idea of overbuffing Cryx. Their big boogeyman list is made of the stuff that everyone said was bad, and which hasn't really been buffed. Just a couple extra Pirates back per turn is all. Good yes, but not what makes the list great. They need to nerf Deneghra, especially now that they've nerfed the Haleys. And yes, Cryx is my main faction and I'm saying that.

But yeah, not a fan of Black Anchor. It's just another step where they've been pushing more and more stuff to their own webstore, which feels especially bad after their recent free rider stuff about supporting brick and mortars.

Not to start another balance argument about the game, but I actually think the big problem is the wraith engine and particularly how it interacts with SR17. Granted, I don't think Cryx is alone in getting a little too much from CID, but its not just Ghost Fleet that's made them the big bogeyman of the game again.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I see a lot of vitriol at their behavior but honestly its just been constant overreactions to change of any sort. At least half the changes have been direct responses to the cries of the community before MK3 that turned around and spit when they got what they asked for.

I've been playing since the start of MK2 and while there's been changes, none of them have fundamentally changed the game itself afaic. The community, on the other hand, has just become kind of spoiled and toxic. I can honestly say I hang out a lot more on Dakka these days in a large part because there isn't a lot of Warmachine talk here and I know whatever PP does these days, the community is going to react in the most miserable way I can imagine.

Would you say they complain like they have a pair?


I always had the impression that PP fostered a competitive atmosphere bordering on the toxic since the beginning. Much of their early success was due to their position as The Opposition in the HHhobby, wasn't it? Now they are everything they've brought their customers to resent and it's biting them in the pair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Ninja'ed by Thanatos. Oh well.

I am so glad they have abandoned that advertising. Never understood the idea that players "went to PP from GW" considering how radical different the gameplay is. I love GW for the world and hobby, I love PP for the world and hobby. I appreciate the games as a Beer and pretzels narrative event for GW and a tight and unforgiving chess-like experience from PP. I'll admit, I am only into the local community and not the larger community....the idea of playing a tournament makes me sick to my stomach lol

Warmachine game and RPG on Humble Bundle! : https://www.humblebundle.com/books/warmachine-hordes-iron-kingdom-rpg-books

ced1106 wrote:
Warmachine game and RPG on Humble Bundle! : https://www.humblebundle.com/books/warmachine-hordes-iron-kingdom-rpg-books

Please take that discussion to the dedicated thread here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/743006.page

Thanks!