Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I would really use a spirit seer with a wing in place of one of the autarchs. I think autarchs are pretty far from amazing, the spirit seer can give your skat wraith knight his 4++ (which can then go to a 3+++) and is a decent candidate to hold the rock. Might even be able to squeeze in a min sized unit of wraithguard to DS in.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
People's opinions on the Shining Spears +3pts? Seems pretty fair to me, and won't stop me from taking my newly-converted spears, personally.

IMO they still are cheaper than they should be, only a 3pt increase is 100% ok with me

Yeah, this is the only unit I use that went up, but so many other units went down for me, that I was able to readjust my lists to add more of the stuff I want

drakerocket wrote:
I would really use a spirit seer with a wing in place of one of the autarchs. I think autarchs are pretty far from amazing, the spirit seer can give your skat wraith knight his 4++ (which can then go to a 3+++) and is a decent candidate to hold the rock. Might even be able to squeeze in a min sized unit of wraithguard to DS in.

Protect only works on Infantry or Bikes, with the WK is neither. So I'm not sure how you are using a Spiritseer to buff a WK's ++ save.
Plus, Autarchs with Laser Lance and Reaper Launchers are good on their own, whereas a Spiritseer does jack-all if it fails a Psychic test. I've won games by properly using my Autarchs to plink wound off units before charging them in an nearly wiping the rest.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
People's opinions on the Shining Spears +3pts? Seems pretty fair to me, and won't stop me from taking my newly-converted spears, personally.

IMO they still are cheaper than they should be, only a 3pt increase is 100% ok with me

Yeah, this is the only unit I use that went up, but so many other units went down for me, that I was able to readjust my lists to add more of the stuff I want

drakerocket wrote:
I would really use a spirit seer with a wing in place of one of the autarchs. I think autarchs are pretty far from amazing, the spirit seer can give your skat wraith knight his 4++ (which can then go to a 3+++) and is a decent candidate to hold the rock. Might even be able to squeeze in a min sized unit of wraithguard to DS in.

Protect only works on Infantry or Bikes, with the WK is neither. So I'm not sure how you are using a Spiritseer to buff a WK's ++ save.
Plus, Autarchs with Laser Lance and Reaper Launchers are good on their own, whereas a Spiritseer does jack-all if it fails a Psychic test. I've won games by properly using my Autarchs to plink wound off units before charging them in an nearly wiping the rest.

-

There is a stratagem (relic ? something) in the vigilus specialist detachment to pass your spiritseer's invul to one wraith unit I think. So you could use the HWC load out and use your spiritseer to provide an invul save to the WK (dunno how you would get to 3++ though).

Holy crap, that's actually a possibility – cast Protect on the Spiritseer, and trigger the strat. The WK inherits a 3++. Depends on the wording, but if it works, that's serious biz.

 grouchoben wrote:
Holy crap, that's actually a possibility – cast Protect on the Spiritseer, and trigger the strat. The WK inherits a 3++. Depends on the wording, but if it works, that's serious biz.

If i'm not mistaken that stratagem is wording as the Wraithknight using the spiritseer rune armor save ( wich is a fixed 4++) while the psy power boost the unit save wich only applies to the model not the armor per se.

 grouchoben wrote:
Holy crap, that's actually a possibility – cast Protect on the Spiritseer, and trigger the strat. The WK inherits a 3++. Depends on the wording, but if it works, that's serious biz.

It can't inherit a 3++ because the spiritseer never had a 3++, it had a 4++ with a +1 to whatever it rolls on the dice.

Same with any modifiers. We just get lazy and say that 3+ save is notw2+ but really it is still 3+ with a modifier.

Ah, yes. I had in fact assumed you could Protect the Spirit Seer and transfer it to the wraithknight. Even so, 4++ is spicy.

Same goes for cover saves, cameloline cloaks, and the new army trait for alaitoc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so Iyanden is still about the best for mech lists.
Biel-tan is still best for windrider lists with shurikens
Ulthwe is the best for ??? Wraith units or black guardians?

Alaitoc is good for Reapers? now with a modified 2+ save...what about Wraithlords, Knights, or any other base 3+ save units. So Warp Spiders are -1 to hit and 2+ modified saves....is that right?

And Saim Han is good for vypers and scat bikes with charging assault units from Wave Serpents.


Does that sound like a broad synopsis?

Alaitoc did not change, it's still -1 to hit and still probably the best overall (unless something else was announced).

I know they've been brought up briefly, but with the points drops shadow-weavers and night spinners seem a lot more appealing. Are they finally worth it? Indirect fire is strong, especially with ITC terrain rules.

3 support platforms is just about one night spinner. That's 3d6 s6 d1 vs 2d6 s7 d2 - both with the rend. I tend to favor the spinner for the d2 but I wonder if the platforms don't outperform vs 1 wound infantry. What are your thoughts?

What do people think about the nerf to Wave Serpents?

Specifically, the old "go-to" Wave Serpent build of 3 Shuriken Cannons got bumped up in price by 10% from 134 to 147 (13pts)

Do you think the new price is worth running triple cannons? Or will the "budget version" of the shuriken serpent with the twin catapults at 139pts be the better option? (Only 5 more than before.)

 Kouzuki wrote:
What do people think about the nerf to Wave Serpents?

Specifically, the old "go-to" Wave Serpent build of 3 Shuriken Cannons got bumped up in price by 10% from 134 to 147 (13pts)

Do you think the new price is worth running triple cannons? Or will the "budget version" of the shuriken serpent with the twin catapults at 139pts be the better option? (Only 5 more than before.)

I think it's still worth it. With the various reductions in the other locations, I don't think in the end the price hike on them will be noticed.

Though in my lists I only run three of them, so the cost difference it easily outweighed elsewhere. I suppose if you were running more of them, it might be more difficult to compensate for.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

I think it's still worth it. With the various reductions in the other locations, I don't think in the end the price hike on them will be noticed.

Though in my lists I only run three of them, so the cost difference it easily outweighed elsewhere. I suppose if you were running more of them, it might be more difficult to compensate for.

Unfortunately all the units in my list didn't get any major points reductions forcing me to either cut a wave serpent, or change it out for something else.

Do you think he triple cannon serpent is still the way to go at 147 points now?

Better question I think is with the Falcon being a fair bit cheaper than a Serpent now with more guns, are Falcons now worth it again?

Lithanial wrote:
Better question I think is with the Falcon being a fair bit cheaper than a Serpent now with more guns, are Falcons now worth it again?

Falcons might be interesting to look at, but, you always have to remember that the Serpent gets its shield whereas the Falcon doesn’t have the same level of protection.

I did make a Windrider + Hornet list pages and pages ago that was interesting at the time, but is now substantially cheaper. I also agree that I think the Shuriken cannons are still better than the Scatter Lasers on Windriders. Sure the extra shot is nice, but, you have to 100% go Saim-Hann (which isn’t bad now that Vypers are looking interesting) but, the -3 AP on 6’s, especially when paired with Doom on things like Knights and Tanks, is by far more important than the additional shot.

The serpent is still a better transport, the falcon is still a better tank. I'd run a serpent with the twin catapult and use the spare pts for vectored engines rather than a third cannon.
Falcons look good now, with a bright lance and shuriken cannon for 140 pts it outperforms a fire prism against tank types unless the prisms use linked fire. Handy if you need to use CP for other tricks.

Colgado wrote:
Alaitoc did not change, it's still -1 to hit and still probably the best overall (unless something else was announced).

I know they've been brought up briefly, but with the points drops shadow-weavers and night spinners seem a lot more appealing. Are they finally worth it? Indirect fire is strong, especially with ITC terrain rules.

3 support platforms is just about one night spinner. That's 3d6 s6 d1 vs 2d6 s7 d2 - both with the rend. I tend to favor the spinner for the d2 but I wonder if the platforms don't outperform vs 1 wound infantry. What are your thoughts?

At 112 points base Spinners are absolutely beastly. 125 for their direct combat configuration (Shuricannon + CTM so they can scoot and shoot directly).

Vaul weapon plattforms are now very good backfield objektive holders. Cheap, pretty durable, long range without needing los and not threatening enough to be a prime target.

The Night Spinner has a slightly different role, even thought their weapons Arme very similar.

Should we brigade now? Or rather double battalion with cheap troops like DA and rangers? I find myself starved of CP regularly by turn 2/3 running battalion+spearhead and Ulthwe Autarch as warlord, that beimg at 1500 - 1750 pts. And that won't get better with the wraithhost i'm plann7ng to build...

I am looking at double battalion as a serious option at 1500. Anything above that and it is probably a no-brainer.

3 squads of Rangers, and the newly cheaper Storm Guardians with the newly cheaper Fusion Guns will only go to 180 + 228. That is taking it just above 400. Along with a Farseer, Warlock & Spiritseer that I would want anyway, I could take an extra Spiritseer for buffing and runes purposes and still have points to spend on things to take advantage of the buffs.

It's all gonna come down to how many Heavy Support slots you want. Since CWE can't vehicle squad their heavy armor it's a damn crowded role.

Well you can take twin linked scatter lasers on the wave serpent now to keep costs down. Not quite as good....but still a useful piece.

I like the Night Spinner as it can move and escape. It cannot hide as well....but the degrading stats vs removing models as the vaul unit takes hits is a wash more or less.

I am in the process prior to the CA 2019 of painting a 2 WS + 2 Falcon +1 night spinner list. The Wave Serpents will have the dangerous cargo but will be outfitted with the cheaper weapons. The falcons will have things like Banshees so if shot down they could still make a next turn charge. Night Spinner moving up from behind the convoy.

Now my opponent will have to choose if he wants to take out the Wraith Guard/Fire Dragon transport or go after the heavier guns on the falcons with less cargo threat.

I should have ample points for crimson hunters, vypers and some scat bikes plus a couple characters on bikes to keep up. Between Cloudstrike and Phantasm I hope to have very little drops for the enemy to prepare for.


Does Prepared Position work on Vehilcles like the Falcon and Wave Serpent? That stratagem is starting to look more favorable.

Sterling191 wrote:
It's all gonna come down to how many Heavy Support slots you want. Since CWE can't vehicle squad their heavy armor it's a damn crowded role.

I never find I'm running out of slots, if you need more you can just add a warlock/ spiritseer and create a spearhead detachment for +1 cp and 6 more heavy slots.

If you're looking to minimize drops, you can get two squads that fit in Falcons into each Wave Serpent. And Twin BL Serpents aren't as much worse than Falcons as they should be. That said, the Falcon may have a place, now.

As for Vaul's Wrath, I'd imagine you wouldn't want to mix profiles if not doing so is cheap. So if you're already bringing lots of Grav Tanks, a Night Spinner might be a better option than a Vaul's Wrath. But if you're already going to have a bunch of lighter targets, Vaul's Wrath might make more sense.

BL Serpents are starting at 162 now, and will go into the 170s easily if you want to make them mobile. That's Prism/CHE territory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, as I'm sitting here doing the math, the Starcannon CHE drops in at 161 points now, while the baseline Prism is at 162.

Interesting...

In regards to drops, remember, the new CA missions don't care about drop count, so it'll only affect old missions/ITC events.

I'm really looking forward to looking at the new points this weekend and tweaking some lists. I know I can pretty much see them now, but I prefer in hand to better absorb.

So let me get this straight, I can have a 4++ HWC WK if I...
...take 5 HQs (3 for the Command detachment for the WK to be in, 2 for the mandatory Battalion I need for CPs), spend 1 CP to give it the keyword and another CP PER TURN to transfer the Spiritseer's Invul to the WK?

Yeah, no. I think I'll pass on that. It'd be far better to just take a Skathach WK with Inferno Lance and Shield if I really want an anti-Knight shooting WK with an Invul. It may be about 100pts more, but I don't need to bleed CPs to make it work. Added bonus that it can either leave the table if needed and/or drop in on turn 2

-

 Galef wrote:
So let me get this straight, I can have a 4++ HWC WK if I...
...take 5 HQs (3 for the Command detachment for the WK to be in, 2 for the mandatory Battalion I need for CPs), spend 1 CP to give it the keyword and another CP PER TURN to transfer the Spiritseer's Invul to the WK?

Yeah, no. I think I'll pass on that. It'd be far better to just take a Skathach WK with Inferno Lance and Shield if I really want an anti-Knight shooting WK with an Invul. It may be about 100pts more, but I don't need to bleed CPs to make it work. Added bonus that it can either leave the table if needed and/or drop in on turn 2

-

To be fair, the Supreme Command of 2 Spiritseers, 1 Farseer Skyrunner, 5 Wraithblades/Guard, 1 Wave Serpent and 1 Wraithknight, in addition to (imo) Eldrad + 1 Warlock Skyrunner and 3 troops is a really nice base to start with, and will give you around 600 points to play with. Not a great deal, but, certainly enough to start adding in some other units of potential.

Kdash wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So let me get this straight, I can have a 4++ HWC WK if I...
...take 5 HQs (3 for the Command detachment for the WK to be in, 2 for the mandatory Battalion I need for CPs), spend 1 CP to give it the keyword and another CP PER TURN to transfer the Spiritseer's Invul to the WK?

Yeah, no. I think I'll pass on that. It'd be far better to just take a Skathach WK with Inferno Lance and Shield if I really want an anti-Knight shooting WK with an Invul. It may be about 100pts more, but I don't need to bleed CPs to make it work. Added bonus that it can either leave the table if needed and/or drop in on turn 2

-

To be fair, the Supreme Command of 2 Spiritseers, 1 Farseer Skyrunner, 5 Wraithblades/Guard, 1 Wave Serpent and 1 Wraithknight, in addition to (imo) Eldrad + 1 Warlock Skyrunner and 3 troops is a really nice base to start with, and will give you around 600 points to play with. Not a great deal, but, certainly enough to start adding in some other units of potential.

I guess my issue is that I rarely have more than 10CPs to spend, and blow through them by turn 3 on stuff like Linked Fire, Fire and Fade, Lightning reflexes, etc. All strats I have found to be mandatory, not to mention the Command point reroll for the odd roll of 1 or 2 on something that only needed a 3+

In order to do this combo, it would require me to:
A) intentionally take detachments that yield slightly less CPs than my typical lists (although still 9 as you described instead of the 10 I usually get)
B) use those fewer CPs before the game starts for the Wraithhost Keyword (now down to only 8CPs) and each turn for the Stratagem (7,6,5)

So order to get a WK a 4++, I look at it as a 5+CP investment. Is 5 or more CPs worth it? Not to me, and not when other WKs can get a 5++

-