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wuestenfux wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:

barlw wrote:I've run the aforementioned webway strike 20 Guardian blob with 2x shuriken cannons in 2 games so far and it is incredible. A farseer skyrunner with guide and doom zooms up to support the guardians and whatever they sneeze at usually dies.

What craftworld do you run? Also have you been using any psychic buffs to protect your guardians? And have your opponents managed to deal with them?

Unless you bolster the Guardians, they are a one-hit wonder. Moreover they need to pick their target well.
I hesitate using them in this role.

Khaine wrote:I can't justify spending points on troops beyond the minimum required for Battalion/Brigade detachments, and 20 Guardians is only one slot. Our troops are not as terrible as they used to be, but when we've got such strong Elites/Heavy Support/Flyers, 5-man Ranger & Dire Avenger squads for 60/64 pts seem to me the way to go.

honestly the 20man guardian squad isn't so bad. Remember fire and fade exist in our book allowing you to get into range and back up further than most other enemy unit's normally can move. This puts you well out of flamer range and also out of rapid fire range of most weapon's if you deploy and use this right. Also i'd argue to make a competitive list these days it is important your just as good at punching up at hordes or high T multi wound stuff. Elite middle of the road models usually can die as bi-product of either.

I am of the line of thinking that it's either you take the hemlock to allow your heavies/elites to convert better when punch multiple horde units thanks to our exarch spamming practices. Or, you bring the one guardian squad and invest the 1 command point in web way striking them, and maybe a second to fire and fade to protect them if you want them to be a longer term unit. Otherwise, i think you're definitely gonna struggle.

That said it is just one unit and even in ulthwe it can only go so far. So i can see how it would definitely feel like ti's just a drop in the bucket.

Edit:

FarseerReborn wrote:
So, what is the best combo for dealing with hordes? (orks, tyranids in particular)

Best bets are a hemlock to bolster your anti GEQ killing power. Nids are harder because they are immune to morale, and i highly suspect for a ltitle while termagants are gonna be the next conscripts if they get a points drop. Right now with jsut a 6+ save that are managable and aren't the level of bullet sponge that guard concripts of infantry squads are.

Scoprions are by far our best GEQ unit for straight up wounds, and termagaunt die a twice the rate to most weapons. The corps are also the least realistic. Getting one squad to hit in bial-tan without avatar is a 58% chance assuming no scouts. Plus these in my opinion really require biel-tan

Then we have guardian defenders who are already second best, but who can do signigantly more in ulthwe with strategem, can get in position with web way, get out of the way with fire and faid

Then swooping hawks who come slightly ahead of dire avengers and windriders with shurikan catapults.

All of the above do better with autarch, and shurikans better in biel-tan.

Orcs can be dealt with by comboing up with the hemlock as they don't tend to leadership perect, as it's easier to turn off any morale ignoring mechanics they might have. unlike synapse that can be hidden in a unit on a brood lord.

Shadow spectres seem pretty solid at dealing with hordes. Those diffuse-mode heavy flamers (Assault! Make good use of that Battle Focus!) are strapped to (hard to hit) jump packs for the mobility they need to get in for the job done where other units would waste them as footslogging fodder. The leadership modifier they provide (which stacks with the modifier they give when their Phoenix Lord is on the table) helps a bit as well (effectively 3d6 pick the highest).

Better yet, that sweet coherent-mode allows them to function as potent medium and heavy infantry blasters as well, making them a great swiss-army knife unit that can put in work in any TAC list.

They are pretty pricey for a unit of single-wound models, and even with their built in -1 to be hit (in shooting and close combat) their relatively short range means they'll be more vulnerable on the front line than your Dark Reapers would be shooting freely from the rear, but they should be able to give you solid results thanks to more forward pressure if you support them well.

mmimzie wrote:

So we most of the eldar's current forces for low anti infantry damage. For example when you have swooping hawks and dire avengers both attacking GEQ or MEQ models you get the same average damage per point. The different being that dire avengers are troops, and swooping hawks are exceedingly mobile. Though this is pretty much the same with all of eldar, and the only models that really get high marks on thier GEQ kills would be the standard guardian squad. The only way in my mind to combat this within eldar is to bring a hemlock and use taht to really help you cash in on those kills in the morale phase.

here's the math to compare: Vs GEQ (all 5man with exarch)
Dire avengers 64pt squad kills 4 GEQ .0625 wounds/pts
Swooping hawks 68pt squad kills 4.7 .0697 wounds/pts (didn't count the grenade but would be .83 more kills and would push them quite away over)

Neither of these are very good, is my point. There are a bunch of things in Eldar that are better anti-horde. Dire Avengers are almost never the right Troops pick and Swooping Hawks are rarely the right FA pick.

You bring up Guardians, and these are pretty good. 20 in the Webway work well, but also just 10-man squads in Serpents, since Serpents themselves are quite good (they're not all that shooty but they're incredibly disruptive).

But even Dark Reapers do about as well against GEQs as Hawks, while being far better against everything else. The Exarch's tempest launcher is a very efficient gun and makes up for the regular reaper launcher's overkill.

Fafnir brings up Shadow Spectres, which do significantly better than Hawks against GEQs (while again being much better against everything else). Granted they have to be in flamer range to be good anti-horde. And they're comparably durable since they're typically going to have 2+ saves with a -1 to hit.

Scorpions do about as well as Spectres if they can pull off a charge, but this is generally not worth risking.

One unit you didn't mention but which I've been pushing on here for a few days now is Shining Spears. A Spear that shoots and charges GEQs does better for its cost than anything else mentioned so far. It's actually not close. They're 24% more efficient than Scorpions against GEQs and 15% more efficient than Spectres inside 8", it's generally pretty easy to get them into CC, and they're also ridiculously good against everything else.

I definitely agree that Hemlock help a lot. I had a game the other day where Hemlocks contributed an additional 2 casualties to each of about 6 squads that I'd softened up with other units.

I have been giving the Dark Reapers some serious revisiting following the Codex.

It’s a big choice between Alaitoc or Ynarri for them. On the one hand SfD is awesome, however, you are only likely to get 1 turn off with them as they are a lot more fragile than Alaitoc version. Over 2-3 turns of them surviving in Alaitoc, you should pull ahead is what I am thinking.

Consider the following:

Alaitoc -1, Conceal -1, Stratagem -1. That means anything less than a Marine cannot hit Alaitoc at all, and Marines are half as likely to hit Alaitoc Reapers than Ynarri Reapers. That extra -1 from Alaitoc makes a huge difference.

Factor in things like sticking them behind LOS terrain, moving out to shoot and then Fire and Fade back behind the LOS terrain (where available of course) you can really get a lot of mileage out of them, without any potential need to pull them forward to keep within WotP range from Yvraine ( which if they ever do survive past turn 3 can be a pull).

I really like SfD but on balance I feel the Alaitoc -1 to hit on everything is a real competition for army choice vs SfD on what is a limite number of units in your army that will really make any substantial gain from the rule.

SfD is without doubt very powerful, and I am torn between having mono Alaitoc vs Ynarri and Alaitoc mix, just struggling to get more than 4 units in my army that truly make most of SfD whilst still making Brigade for all the Stratagems I want to be able to use.

My thoughts and observations anyway so far

 Karhedron wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Vyper costs 70 wthi 2x SC
5 Swooping hawks costs64

I think these are our best fast attack options.

I have squadron of 3 dual Shuricannon Vypers I converted so long ago the cannons are the old metal jetbike versions (that was some hack-job ). Nice to know they seem to be worth using now.

For giggles, I compared one to a Primaris Inceptor which is only 10 points less. Both get 6 shots and are Flyers. Inceptor shoots at S5 AP-1, Vyper shoots at S6 Ap- but 6s to wound become AP-3 so Vypers have a slight edge. Durability is where is gets crazy though as both units have T5 and a 3+ save but the Vyper gets 6 wounds to the Inceptor's 2. Vypers also have 24" range to the Inceptor's 18". Vypers are looking quite tidy!

Playing very frequently with Vypers I feel they are used in a wrong way when just comparing their output/toughness vs others units.

They can fulfill so many different jobs beside their shooting capabilities. Shoot something and charge a heavy weapon team/vehicle to stop it from shooting next round/have it fallback/stop it’s movement for a round. Hide a character for a while (e.g. Farseer Skyrunner).

Their toughness, save and being flying (fallback and still shoot next round) puts them in a sweet spot where a lot of other units just can’t do the same without being punished afterwards. Windriders are too fragile, Serpents can copy parts of it but when still transporting units you might move them somewhere else instead of blocking the enemy. Also Serpents have a larger frame which can be a problem. Walkers will probably stop themself from shooting next round when they go fighting. Vypers are bikes! Thinking of Protect is just one example.

Playing them on one flank often they are surprisingly resilient and if your opponent starts assigning anti-tank/multiwound damage he’s not using it for other parts of your army.

How do you feel they compare against Swooping Hawks? Only 5 points difference to a 5 man Hawk squad. Hawks more shots but more fragile.

FarseerReborn wrote:
So, what is the best combo for dealing with hordes? (orks, tyranids in particular)

Against Orks you need to take first care of the trukks and the battle wagons. Destroy them and the Orks have to take a walk.
Against Nids, this is more involved. They have fast moving small bugs which need to be taken on with small arms fire, and larger bugs which are lacking behind.
Here you need to take on the hive minds first with high-strength multi-damage weapons. Lascannons are now more effective than they were before as they inflict D6 wounds and not just one.

 Bego wrote:

Playing them on one flank often they are surprisingly resilient and if your opponent starts assigning anti-tank/multiwound damage he’s not using it for other parts of your army.

I don't understand why this is an advantage. Like, "I'm happy you're shooting X and not Y" makes sense only if shooting Y would actually be a better use of firepower. But Vypers are quite fragile for their firepower and cost compared to the things they're drawing fire from. Even a 70 point Vyper is paying 11.67 ppw, compared to a cheap Serpent at 10.3 or a Hemlock at 16.7. A BS3+ lascannon therefore expects to do ~15 points' worth of damage to a Vyper, compared to 10.2 for a Serpent and 13.5 for a Hemlock. War Walkers cost the same as a Vyper but get a 5++, so are more durable. Even scytheguard are more durable in the face of lascannon fire than Vypers. What this means is that instead of bringing Vypers to draw fire from your actually-more-durable other units, you should probably instead just bring more of the other units. The only plausible units that you're particularly happy to be drawing fire from on a cost basis would be Wraithlords/knights and Fire Prisms, and it's not like any of these are particularly great and Fire Prisms would generally be hiding way in the back anyway. Now, you might argue that even though Vypers are more fragile than your other units, the other units are also sufficiently more valuable on offense that you still want to draw fire from them. But this is actually just an argument that Vypers are bad -- it's an argument that Vypers are both more fragile and less shooty than other units.

This sort of argument is a good reason to bring durable stuff that threatens to be really annoying. Like Wave Serpents -- you either deal with the Serpent or get a bunch of your stuff tied up in CC the whole game. It's not a good reason to bring fragile stuff that your opponent wants to shoot anyway.

I'm not sure which Runes of Battle powers you'd particularly want to cast on Vypers. Conceal, I guess, to make up for their fragility, though of course the cheapest RoB psyker is a 35 point Warlock, so you're really cutting into their firepower efficiency (a Serpent is still much more durable for cost while now having almost as much firepower). Probably never Embolden, Enhance, or Empower. Quicken has some weird uses but it's mostly wasted on 24" guns. Protect doesn't make much sense since Vypers are primarily vulnerable to multi-damage weapons -- you're casting Protect to upgrade a 6+ save vs lascannon fire to a 5+.

Can someone clarify something for me regarding the star hawk missile?

"Star hawk Missile Craftworlds Stratagem
Some Aeldari missile launchers are equipped with star hawk missiles, which are specifically designed to target enemy flyers. You can use this Stratagem just before an ASURYANI Infantry model from your army attacks a unit that can Fly with an Aeldari missile launchers. You only make a single hit roll with the weapon this phase; however, add 1 to the hit roll and, if it hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds."

Now is this in addition to its normal shot or replacing it? For 1CP to deal 1-3 mortal wounds instead of firing at S8 -2 save D6 damage/D6 shots S4 -1 save 1 damage seems rather underwhelming.

 wuestenfux wrote:

FarseerReborn wrote:
So, what is the best combo for dealing with hordes? (orks, tyranids in particular)

Against Orks you need to take first care of the trukks and the battle wagons. Destroy them and the Orks have to take a walk.
Against Nids, this is more involved. They have fast moving small bugs which need to be taken on with small arms fire, and larger bugs which are lacking behind.
Here you need to take on the hive minds first with high-strength multi-damage weapons. Lascannons are now more effective than they were before as they inflict D6 wounds and not just one.

For dealing with hordes, would Saim Hann Scatterbikes be good? What is the go-to anti-horde tool for Eldar?

What would you guys feel be better against a regular tank with T7-8 and say 3+ save when crossing beams with 2 Prisms - the S9 or S12 shot? What if it has invul?

Also, what do you think about the difference in points cost and abilities of Spiritseer compared to Warlock?

Saim Hann Scatterbikes

I'd argue Saim Hann bonus is actually the worst thing to put on Scatbikes. I think best thing for bikes is Alaitoc & Alaitoc commander with Puritant trait - at least morale immunity means fielding bigger squads meaning losing less deploys to the enemy. Biel-Tan might be ok with catapults/cannons but it can be replicated.
I guess you could just use your Webway point but there are a lot of cool things you can use with that instead of spending it on bikes.

I don't feel like Craftworld bonuses make a lot of sense in general though. Ulthwe bonus would be more useful for Yanden (together with some +speed bonus maybe), -1 to hit for all BIKER and SKIMMER units would fit more and be more useful for Saim-Hann, the ignore penalty for heavy weapons for tanks and charge bonus would benefit more Biel Tan with 3 melee aspects we have, and so on.

Playing very frequently with Vypers I feel they are used in a wrong way when just comparing their output/toughness vs others units.

I think using them in a wedge with jetbike character with lance or mind war inside, with some durability bonus slapped on top is best you can do with them. You can use serpents in a similar fashion (I do all the time) but they need to spread out eventually to disembark and ram enemy shooty units without Fly. Drawing fire to Vypers makes little sense since they won't be most threating thing in the list. So it's just a fire support/screening unit. With Ynnari it can potentially be more dangerous tho, but I've yet to try that and see what kind of sacrifical lambs I can use to proc them and how tactically viable it would be.

Drake003 wrote:
I have been giving the Dark Reapers some serious revisiting following the Codex.

It’s a big choice between Alaitoc or Ynarri for them. On the one hand SfD is awesome, however, you are only likely to get 1 turn off with them as they are a lot more fragile than Alaitoc version. Over 2-3 turns of them surviving in Alaitoc, you should pull ahead is what I am thinking.

Consider the following:

Alaitoc -1, Conceal -1, Stratagem -1. That means anything less than a Marine cannot hit Alaitoc at all, and Marines are half as likely to hit Alaitoc Reapers than Ynarri Reapers. That extra -1 from Alaitoc makes a huge difference.

Factor in things like sticking them behind LOS terrain, moving out to shoot and then Fire and Fade back behind the LOS terrain (where available of course) you can really get a lot of mileage out of them, without any potential need to pull them forward to keep within WotP range from Yvraine ( which if they ever do survive past turn 3 can be a pull).

I really like SfD but on balance I feel the Alaitoc -1 to hit on everything is a real competition for army choice vs SfD on what is a limite number of units in your army that will really make any substantial gain from the rule.

SfD is without doubt very powerful, and I am torn between having mono Alaitoc vs Ynarri and Alaitoc mix, just struggling to get more than 4 units in my army that truly make most of SfD whilst still making Brigade for all the Stratagems I want to be able to use.

My thoughts and observations anyway so far

Can always fire and fade the reapers back into their wave serpent as well. Provided they didn’t disembark that turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In regards to the fire prism I think the Str 9 shots would be better due to the potential of more shots. They still will be wounding on 3s but then the different damage dice balances it a bit.
Against fliers it might be closer where the T6 means 2s to wound. But even still more shots means a better chance of something getting through, rather than whiffing completely.

 Shadenuat wrote:

Saim Hann Scatterbikes

I'd argue Saim Hann bonus is actually the worst thing to put on Scatbikes. I think best thing for bikes is Alaitoc & Alaitoc commander with Puritant trait - at least morale immunity means fielding bigger squads meaning losing less deploys to the enemy. Biel-Tan might be ok with catapults/cannons but it can be replicated.
I guess you could just use your Webway point but there are a lot of cool things you can use with that instead of spending it on bikes.

Really? Moving and shooting without penalty sounds pretty great to me. The -1 to-hit is good, but then you are locked into shorter range guns or a penalty to-hit. You could also just go for a lot of 3-man units that way you don't eat too many casualties to morale. I am used to doing that with Skitarii, where a 10-man unit is a liability, vs a 5-man unit is preferable.

 Shadenuat wrote:
What would you guys feel be better against a regular tank with T7-8 and say 3+ save when crossing beams with 2 Prisms - the S9 or S12 shot? What if it has invul?

Also, what do you think about the difference in points cost and abilities of Spiritseer compared to Warlock?

The S9 mode is better in that case. 2x D3 damage is slightly better than D6 damage, so in every case where they're wounding on the same number and there's no difference between AP-4 and AP-5, you want the S9 mode. S12 is better against T5 and T6 with lots of wounds (light vehicles) if you're not re-rolling wounds, but if you are then S9 is better. And then S12 is better against T9+, though if you're re-rolling wounds it's pretty close.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:

Saim Hann Scatterbikes

I'd argue Saim Hann bonus is actually the worst thing to put on Scatbikes. I think best thing for bikes is Alaitoc & Alaitoc commander with Puritant trait - at least morale immunity means fielding bigger squads meaning losing less deploys to the enemy. Biel-Tan might be ok with catapults/cannons but it can be replicated.
I guess you could just use your Webway point but there are a lot of cool things you can use with that instead of spending it on bikes.

Really? Moving and shooting without penalty sounds pretty great to me. The -1 to-hit is good, but then you are locked into shorter range guns or a penalty to-hit. You could also just go for a lot of 3-man units that way you don't eat too many casualties to morale. I am used to doing that with Skitarii, where a 10-man unit is a liability, vs a 5-man unit is preferable.

I'd add to this that Scatterbikes in general are the inferior choice, demanding that they be Saim-Hann just to be functional. Shuricannon bikes, otoh, do not need the Saim-hann attribute and are thus free to use the superior Alaitoc or Biel-tan attributes to great affect.

Remember that Scatter lasers were only good in 7th because they were versatile enough to target hordes and strip hull points. Even in 7th, the Shuricannon was better at taking on high T, decent save units, but because those targets were not common (and Bladestorm meant nothing due to cover saves), the Scatter laser was the clear choice. Since vehicles no longer have HPs and suddenly fall into the category of ideal target for Shuricannons, they become the clear choice.
Shuricannons are even better against hordes since even hordes get armour saves + cover now. So that occasional AP -3 (which now affects that cover save bonus) statistically makes Shuricannon about as effective as Scatter lasers against even horde units, maybe even moreso

Next we need to address the range difference. In 7th, being able to stay 36" away was great, especially since you could pop back behind LoS blocking terrain. In 8th, units can literally pop up outside 9" of you, so the difference between 24" and 36" range could mean literally nothing. Add to that Scatterbikes can only move 16" and shoot, while Shuricannon bikes can move 22" and shoot at full BS thanks to Battle focus and being Assault.
That makes the threat range 52" or 46". Only 6" of difference

I'm sorry for those of you that glued all those Scatter lasers to your Windriders, but you are handicapping yourself by thinking they are any way on the same level as Shuricannons.

-

A few observations from my first game with the new book:

I took a Biel-Tan list with one of each aspect except Reapers and Crimson Hunters. 5 psykers, 3 Serpents and 2 Fire Prisms.

Fire Prisms are great. I took two and used the linked fire strat to drop the Swarmlord in one shooting phase. Always use the S9 version vs big things, maths wise it's sadly always better than the S12 shot.

The amount of buffs/debuffs we can stack is crazy.

A unit of banshees with quicken, empower, enhance, supreme disdain and doom shot across the board and did 17 wounds to a Trygon. 17!

I put doom, restrain and enervate on a unit of Stealers and screened them with 5 dire avengers. There were 8 left by my opponents turn, their reduced speed meant they could only charge the avengers who got to overwatch on 5+ (rerolling 1's for Biel-tan) and rerolling to wound. The Stealers failed to kill them.

A unit of Fire dragons got tied up in combat (which they survived thanks to protect) so I used feigned retreat to escape, then quicken to jog into range of their next target.

I don't know about it's power level but the book is so much fun to use!


Also:

In this list I made a Spirit seer my warlord and took the generic trait that allows him to reroll psy tests. I had another Spirit Seer with the Biel-Tan relic to also reroll tests. I gave them Protect/Jinx and Quicken/Restrain as these powers are so powerful but not easy to cast. I now find it very hard not to include this pair in all lists which necessitates a Biel-Tan deatchment.

 Galef wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:

Saim Hann Scatterbikes

I'd argue Saim Hann bonus is actually the worst thing to put on Scatbikes. I think best thing for bikes is Alaitoc & Alaitoc commander with Puritant trait - at least morale immunity means fielding bigger squads meaning losing less deploys to the enemy. Biel-Tan might be ok with catapults/cannons but it can be replicated.
I guess you could just use your Webway point but there are a lot of cool things you can use with that instead of spending it on bikes.

Really? Moving and shooting without penalty sounds pretty great to me. The -1 to-hit is good, but then you are locked into shorter range guns or a penalty to-hit. You could also just go for a lot of 3-man units that way you don't eat too many casualties to morale. I am used to doing that with Skitarii, where a 10-man unit is a liability, vs a 5-man unit is preferable.

I'd add to this that Scatterbikes in general are the inferior choice, demanding that they be Saim-Hann just to be functional. Shuricannon bikes, otoh, do not need the Saim-hann attribute and are thus free to use the superior Alaitoc or Biel-tan attributes to great affect.

Remember that Scatter lasers were only good in 7th because they were versatile enough to target hordes and strip hull points. Even in 7th, the Shuricannon was better at taking on high T, decent save units, but because those targets were no common (and Bladestorm meant nothing due to cover saves), the Scatter laser was the clear choice. Since vehicles no longer have HPs and suddenly fall into the category of ideal target for Shuricannons, they become the clear choice.
Shuricannons are even better against hordes since even hordes get armour saves + cover now. So that occasional AP -3 (which now affects that cover save bonus) statistically makes Shuricannon about as effective as Scatter lasers against even horde units, maybe even moreso

Next we need to address the range difference. In 7th, being able to stay 36" away was great, especially since you could pop back behind LoS blocking terrain. In 8th, units can literally pop up outside 9" of you, so the difference between 24" and 36" range could mean literally nothing. Add to that Scatterbikes can only move 16" and shoot, while Shuricannon bikes can move 22" and shoot thanks to Battle focus.
That makes the threat range 52" or 46". Only 6" of difference

I'm sorry for those of you that glued all those Scatter lasers to your Windriders, but you are handicapping yourself by thinking they are any way on the same level as Shuricannons.

-

I don't even own an Eldar Jetbike. I'm not coming from 7th Ed. So really none of that applies to me! I did appreciate the parts where you explained why the Shuriken cannons are better. As I haven't played any 8th outside of AdMech, not everything Eldar is obvious at first glance.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I don't even own an Eldar Jetbike. I'm not coming from 7th Ed. So really none of that applies to me! I did appreciate the parts where you explained why the Shuriken cannons are better. As I haven't played any 8th outside of AdMech, not everything Eldar is obvious at first glance.

My apologies, no personal offense was intended. I may have responded to your post, but I was making a more general statement to the community. Sorry if it came off poorly.
I have a friend who is intent on running Scatterbikes because he got into Eldar in 7th ed, so I see the "but Scatterbikes!" argument come up often.
I am very pleased that the Shuricannon is the better choice now as they have always been my favorite weapon for Windriders, even when I strated playing back when they were called Guardian Jetbikes and could only take 1 Shuriicannon per 3 models.

-

They still kinda work when just set up the hell away from the enemy and shooting from '36, which is why I'd prefer them doing that and also not dying instead of moving (unless it's Mael) - which makes other bonuses but actual Saim-Hann one better.

I agree with lots what Galef said tho.

Honestly I'm leaning towards the idea that Shining Spears are just all round much more cost effective option than Windriders, epecially in Saim-Hann with that trait & stratagem. The fact that they are the same base cost despite the fact that Spears come with a 3+/4++, an extra attack, a point of ld and a free exarch is quite ridiculous.

They are. They were already one of hardest hitting units in the codex, grinding many things better than specialists due to twin catapults-lances-charge combo, and now they're probably the most One Punch aspect of Them All, while also being durable and only a fraction more expensive than regular bikes.

And now I finally don't need to survive "that one turn" when enemy shoots their whole army at them. Because Quicken. I wonder if I will even need those charge after advance things, probably not and Quicken will suffice.

 Khaine wrote:
Honestly I'm leaning towards the idea that Shining Spears are just all round much more cost effective option than Windriders, epecially in Saim-Hann with that trait & stratagem. The fact that they are the same base cost despite the fact that Spears come with a 3+/4++, an extra attack, a point of ld and a free exarch is quite ridiculous.

Yes, Windriders are still way too expensive. Consider that Marines get Scout bikers for 25 points, which have a twin bolter instead of a twin catapult, and also get a 12" Assault 2 shotgun which is S5 inside 6". They're also S4, T5, Ld8, and get 2 attacks in CC (3 for the sergeant). And I've actually never seen anyone use them, which suggests they're not good enough.

Dionysodorus wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

Neither of these are very good, is my point. There are a bunch of things in Eldar that are better anti-horde. Dire Avengers are almost never the right Troops pick and Swooping Hawks are rarely the right FA pick.

what.... it literally presented you with the math on the damage these models do <.< per point... what do you base any of this one??? I've done the math on the whole are, but look i'll math it out again, and give some more explanation to thought processes.

Dionysodorus wrote:


but also just 10-man squads in Serpents, since Serpents themselves are quite good (they're not all that shooty but they're incredibly disruptive).

no???

First this is soooooo slow. You do nothing on turn 1. You sit around in your wave serpent for a turn letting your opponent elysian drop troop or turn one cahrge you're stuff. Even if you don't want you're army to be alpha striked... you have to consider the amazing damage opponents can do to you turn 1. Also wave serpent good at anti tank?? here's the math on that idea...

Note i'm gonna give the wave serpent a twin catapult (twin catapult does more GEQ/MEQ and almsot more damage per point than surikan cannons and scatter laser all almsot all targets. Now range is thing, but again i'm doing best damage possible for the models). Also AML's are a joke weapon. if you think they do more GEQ damage than anything... maybe you should use a bright lance instead.... math for that later it's literally better for the points...

Wave serpent.... vs GEQ: no vehicle equipment used
W/ 2 twin shurikan catapults 117pts: 2.667 wounds .0228wounds/pt
W/ 2 shurican cannons 127: 2.44 wounds .0192 wounds/pt..... (this is just to show why i don't put shurican cannons on these math hammers, i know you can't take two)
W/ TSC & T.AML 162:3.277 wounds .0202 wound/pt (AMLs are the worst weapon to put on anything ever period end of story, your a sneeze away from just shooting the dudes with bright lances who i think would win if we were looking at MEQ lmao)
W/ TSC & T.Lance 152: 2.44 wounds .0161 wounds/.pt
W/ TSC & TSC 140: 3.555 wounds .0253 wound/pt

Now comparing to a squad of dire averenger that are never the right choice <.<
Dire avengers 64pt squad kills 4 GEQ .0625 wounds/pts interesting...

Dionysodorus wrote:



But even Dark Reapers do about as well against GEQs as Hawks, while being far better against everything else. The Exarch's tempest launcher is a very efficient gun and makes up for the regular reaper launcher's overkill.

What is the logic??? What do they do more than hawks????

Let's pretend we can spam repears exarchs with AML's without having to bring 2 more reapers

Exatrch w/ AML 30pts: 1.296 wounds .0432 wounds/pt

Well atleast we beat the waveserpent ^.^..... But the hawks...

swooping hawks 68pt squad kills 4.7 .0697 wounds/pts (with the grenade that's 5.53 wounds and .081 wound/pt)

The exarch didn't stand a chance. Plus we already can look at it it with out math to know it would be worse if we did the repear death launchers and counted thier points in as well. So lets not shame our boys in black too much.... Really AMLs such and are only good on the repear beacuse it's a 5 point model equipping a tank level weapon. However they'd do better if they could equip almsot anything else oh the exarch can equip anything else thank good need....

edit for more dark repear math


So when you look at that actualy dark reaper tempest launchers are the best GEQ thing we have. If you take the repeaper launchers for anti tank, and upgrade the exarchs for tempest launchers for anti GEQ your actually not making to bad a choice thier.

Dionysodorus wrote:




Fafnir brings up Shadow Spectres, which do significantly better than Hawks against GEQs (while again being much better against everything else). Granted they have to be in flamer range to be good anti-horde. And they're comparably durable since they're typically going to have 2+ saves with a -1 to hit.

Again you need 2 turns or to cast quicken to get your flamer spectre's into range. However if you can get them in range i don't imagine that'd do so bad. I have math them before because i ignore the existance of forge world despite myself.

So let's see i'm using the battle scribe points for these so if they are wrong for give me:

3 spectres 69pts in flamer range: 5.83 wounds .085 wounds/pt

Hey that's pretty good. Problem is getting that thier the swooping hawks could ahve shot twice from more than twice as far away. if you want to take a big squad and cast quicken on them to get them into melee turn 1. That'd work out nicely, but swooping hawks with no fuss will do the same thing every time if they also use thier grenade on thier target... and they don't need outside help.... So let's leave our boys in blue alone.

Dionysodorus wrote:



Scorpions do about as well as Spectres if they can pull off a charge, but this is generally not worth risking.

Why not??? models in your army are gonna die. That's the point of the game... plus if you can quicken spectres to get them in turn one.... i'd quicken scorps who deep strike on thier own to make sure they can get thier charge off.... Also you can spend a command point to give the scorps supreme disdain.

Dionysodorus wrote:



One unit you didn't mention but which I've been pushing on here for a few days now is Shining Spears. A Spear that shoots and charges GEQs does better for its cost than anything else mentioned so far. It's actually not close. They're 24% more efficient than Scorpions against GEQs and 15% more efficient than Spectres inside 8", it's generally pretty easy to get them into CC, and they're also ridiculously good against everything else.

I love shining spears and i'd agree they are amazing. I've said as much before. I even made a list with them available here if any one wants to check it out. THey are rivaled by the tempest launcher exarch though.

BAsicly except for the shining spear things. I'd honestly have to say looking at the math your mistaken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadenuat wrote:
They are. They were already one of hardest hitting units in the codex, grinding many things better than specialists due to twin catapults-lances-charge combo, and now they're probably the most One Punch aspect of Them All, while also being durable and only a fraction more expensive than regular bikes.

And now I finally don't need to survive "that one turn" when enemy shoots their whole army at them. Because Quicken. I wonder if I will even need those charge after advance things, probably not and Quicken will suffice.

If you ahve more than 1 unit of spears. you can Quicken 1 unit and charge after advance the other unit. Then the others can potential try out long bomb charges rerolling with the saim-hann attribute.

I agree that Shining spears are by far the most versatile choice. My only hang-up about them is that they have to get right up close to the enemy meaning you really need to build your list around them (needing 1-2 Quicken and Protect platforms, other units to be up close to distract fire, etc)

This funny thing about Shining Spears, Windriders and Vypers is that while the Saim-Hann attribute can be helpful for them all (to varying degrees) being Alaitoc or Biel-tan could actually be better defensively or offensively depending on your loadout.
An added bonus for being Alaitoc has already been mentioned: The WL trait makes a Skyrunner Autarch and ideal HQ for bike. Being immune to Morale means being able to have larger Windrider untis (and thus less deployment drops) while also getting reroll 1s to hit from the same Autarch.

Competitively, I'd say a list full of Shining Spears will likely do better than Windriders, but an Alaitoc Autarch at least makes Windriders an appealing choice.

12S Fire Prism shot has it's uses. A cp reroll is more effective on it. If a high wound target has a 2+ (particularly T5/6), then Lance may be the way to go.

Nids, for instance.

mmizie, I feel like you didn't actually read my post. You're responding to a lot of things I didn't say.

I specifically said that Wave Serpents don't shoot well, but then you act like you're refuting what I said by doing a bunch of math for Serpents shooting stuff. Serpents are primarily good for reasons besides their shooting output. For example, they can charge stuff and tie it up. That said, it's interesting that Guardians in cheap Serpents are all together actually just about as good against GEQs as Dire Avengers, per point, which makes them a much better deal overall since you're getting a Serpent body along with all that shooting.

I've also never really found it to be a problem that the Guardians sit inside the Serpents for a turn. I mean, you'll generally be doing this with Dire Avengers too so I'm not sure that it's making a difference, but, especially now, Eldar armies can be incredibly durable in the face of a turn 1 alpha strike.

You do a bunch of irrelevant math for a Dark Reaper Exarch with an AML when I clearly said "tempest launcher". Maybe you should try the math again but with the weapon that's actually good at horde killing.

For the rest, I think you're missing an important point that I mentioned a few times -- things like Spectres and Shining Spears are also great against things other than GEQs. Swooping Hawks aren't. They only look at all comparable to other units if you're solely concerned with GEQ-killing, and even then they're not the best at it. Meanwhile the Spectres can move 12", advance, and shoot 18" at something else on turn 1.

This is also the problem with Scorpions. They do okay against GEQs, if you can make the charge. That's not likely if you're just deep-striking them. And then they're just crap in every other situation, where you don't need to quickly get through a GEQ screen.

 Galef wrote:
I agree that Shining spears are by far the most versatile choice. My only hang-up about them is that they have to get right up close to the enemy meaning you really need to build your list around them (needing 1-2 Quicken and Protect platforms, other units to be up close to distract fire, etc)

This funny thing about Shining Spears, Windriders and Vypers is that while the Saim-Hann attribute can be helpful for them all (to varying degrees) being Alaitoc or Biel-tan could actually be better defensively or offensively depending on your loadout.
An added bonus for being Alaitoc has already been mentioned: The WL trait makes a Skyrunner Autarch and ideal HQ for bike. Being immune to Morale means being able to have larger Windrider untis (and thus less deployment drops) while also getting reroll 1s to hit from the same Autarch.

Competitively, I'd say a list full of Shining Spears will likely do better than Windriders, but an Alaitoc Autarch at least makes Windriders an appealing choice.

Yeah definitly agree spears are amazing. One thing for saim-hann is that strategem is pretty good. It give you some good support for multiple spear units as the advance and charge on a second unit can let you pull off 2 turn 1 charges.

I'd either go one full size squad of shining spears (yes the exarchs really good, but his none exarch buddies are all pretty good and multiple well with buff) and nothing else if i go aliatoc or Biel-tan each providing more protection or more damage specificly for your shining spears. (biel tan also has the court of the young king strategem, but i dontk now it's worth it only +2 to charge with out the avatar and 2 cp).

Or i'd go saim-han with 1 full size squads in the web way ( to charge with quicken) and multiple smaller squads who can be allowed to turn 1 charge with the saim-hann strategem. Also in saim-hann you can protect your spears from over watch by using the stratagem on an autarch on jet bike with the eye for distant events strategem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:
mmizie, I feel like you didn't actually read my post. You're responding to a lot of things I didn't say.

I specifically said that Wave Serpents don't shoot well, but then you act like you're refuting what I said by doing a bunch of math for Serpents shooting stuff. Serpents are primarily good for reasons besides their shooting output. For example, they can charge stuff and tie it up. That said, it's interesting that Guardians in cheap Serpents are all together actually just about as good against GEQs as Dire Avengers, per point, which makes them a much better deal overall since you're getting a Serpent body along with all that shooting.

I've also never really found it to be a problem that the Guardians sit inside the Serpents for a turn. I mean, you'll generally be doing this with Dire Avengers too so I'm not sure that it's making a difference, but, especially now, Eldar armies can be incredibly durable in the face of a turn 1 alpha strike.

You do a bunch of irrelevant math for a Dark Reaper Exarch with an AML when I clearly said "tempest launcher". Maybe you should try the math again but with the weapon that's actually good at horde killing.

For the rest, I think you're missing an important point that I mentioned a few times -- things like Spectres and Shining Spears are also great against things other than GEQs. Swooping Hawks aren't. They only look at all comparable to other units if you're solely concerned with GEQ-killing, and even then they're not the best at it. Meanwhile the Spectres can move 12", advance, and shoot 18" at something else on turn 1.

This is also the problem with Scorpions. They do okay against GEQs, if you can make the charge. That's not likely if you're just deep-striking them. And then they're just crap in every other situation, where you don't need to quickly get through a GEQ screen.

Yeah i did reread it after and say the tempest launcher bit. I brain farted abit thier, and actually added it alittle bit ago in the spoiler section. So your right i did piggeon whole you on the AML. So sorry for putting my foot in your mouth ^.~.

The wave serpent bit. if your putting the guard in the serpents to use thier shooting, the serpents cost is now tacked onto the guard. Why not just bring multiple units of guard instead of the serpent. Or again the webway strike guardians who onlyn eed webway strike to be effective which is a small cost for what they do in my opinion.

I do mention your need to deep strike them and support them and i equate that to spectres. Honestly if you can chilout moving and advance for a turn with spectres, you can drop a unit of scorpions and move them up into charge range the next turn.

SO aside from the Dark reaper exarch. Who is good <.< but the tacked on reapers who aren't. i really disagree with the rest of what you say because it's slow or the damage isn't thier.

xmbk wrote:
12S Fire Prism shot has it's uses. A cp reroll is more effective on it. If a high wound target has a 2+ (particularly T5/6), then Lance may be the way to go.

I think the point of using the S9 D3 shots is that you get more hits on average and using the Linked Fire stratagem gets you rerolls to ALL hits and wounds, not just 1 reroll.
The only "real" reason to use the S12 shot is if you really need the D6 damage, but arguable 2D3 is better and that's the average you get with the S9 version.

-

 Galef wrote:

xmbk wrote:
12S Fire Prism shot has it's uses. A cp reroll is more effective on it. If a high wound target has a 2+ (particularly T5/6), then Lance may be the way to go.

I think the point of using the S9 D3 shots is that you get more hits on average and using the Linked Fire stratagem gets you rerolls to ALL hits and wounds, not just 1 reroll.
The only "real" reason to use the S12 shot is if you really need the D6 damage, but arguable 2D3 is better and that's the average you get with the S9 version.

-

Correct, using the linked stratagem improves Focused more than Lance. But the cp is still relevant for the d6 dam roll, and with the extra AP vs 2+ Lance will average higher damage. #of hits isn't really important, it's all about the damage.

But this is a very specialized case, so in general just defaulting to Focused is fine. I think the OP mentioned Nids though, and Lance has it's uses against the big bugs you really want dead.

How about the Nightspinner?
It has an interesting main weapon with 2D6 shots of high strength requiring no LOS.
I have one at home and I may use it. Or would a conversion to a Fire Prism be better?