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stratigo wrote:

Lithanial wrote:
Now people have had a chance to think about the FAQ a little, how are peoples thoughts coming together on Asuryani Battalion configurations when ranger spam to protect against deep-strike isn't necessary?

I think the meta will swing back to serpent spam, maintaining a power squad of reapers with word of the pheonix. It's entirely possible that the eldar army will still look roughly like the LVO's lists did with a few models trimmed off due to point increases as well.

this is true, but also charging two units of shining spears is also quite possible on turn one, and with few potential screening units shining spears might also become more popular.

I think the meta will swing back to serpent spam, maintaining a power squad of reapers with word of the pheonix.

I have to agree with this. I have been playing Serpents and Reapers(no Ynnari though) before and after the FAQ and they are still working for me as intended. Might try out Spears soon since they haven't seen any changes.

So a friend of mine is new to 40k and is building a Wraith-themed army, with Wraithblades, Wraithguard and Wraithlords as the theme of his list. I'm aware that outside Wraithguard these units aren't exactly considered the best units ever, but we've got a bunch of people with similarly (un)powerful lists so it ought to be fine. The question is, what goes well in a list themed around Wraith constructs? Is the ForgeWorld Wraithseer still a thing, and is it cripplingly bad or would it have a place in a Wraith construct list?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So a friend of mine is new to 40k and is building a Wraith-themed army, with Wraithblades, Wraithguard and Wraithlords as the theme of his list. I'm aware that outside Wraithguard these units aren't exactly considered the best units ever, but we've got a bunch of people with similarly (un)powerful lists so it ought to be fine. The question is, what goes well in a list themed around Wraith constructs? Is the ForgeWorld Wraithseer still a thing, and is it cripplingly bad or would it have a place in a Wraith construct list?

Thematically, wraithseers are awesome and are a perfect fit for a wraith army. I can't comment on how good they are as I've never used one.

Spiritseers are once again thematically right on point, and are great cheap and effective psykers. (slightly less so with the pts increase, but still great).

Hemlocks are also on theme and very very strong.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So a friend of mine is new to 40k and is building a Wraith-themed army, with Wraithblades, Wraithguard and Wraithlords as the theme of his list. I'm aware that outside Wraithguard these units aren't exactly considered the best units ever, but we've got a bunch of people with similarly (un)powerful lists so it ought to be fine. The question is, what goes well in a list themed around Wraith constructs? Is the ForgeWorld Wraithseer still a thing, and is it cripplingly bad or would it have a place in a Wraith construct list?

I run mine with a wraithcannon along with two lords*, it does ok. Its cc weapon is decent and it allows me to fire an anti-tank shot while advancing. I find its psychic powers barely worth the risk of a perils. A 5++ and 2 wounds sort of makes up for not having T8 in my meta, so I think it's ok for casual play.

Do not make it your warlord tho, and never give it the resurrection gem. That'll just make it a very tempting target for your opponent, and it isn't that hard to kill. I've also never given it a d-cannon for this reason, though I still want to try a d-cannon sniper warlord wraithseer one day...


* shuricannon + sword lords, flamers if I'm in the mood. They're essentially sm dreads with a customisable gun arm and a locked in power fist, you need to get them in cc to be remotely effective. I also repeatedly tried a twin bright lance counterassault role, but I just end up moving it to get in melee.

Wraithseers are fantastic, I've converted two and have yet to regret doing so. The invuln alone makes them considerably more durable than wraithlords, and they generally see use two ways: either as a running vehicle demolisher with a shuricannon wraithlord, or as an excellent heavy support element.

The use of one as a D-cannon platform cannot be understated, as unlike the regular support weapons it can actually take a decent hit of firepower and keep on giving out, while moving faster than the support weapons, and while supporting other units as well.

A conversion tutorial I put together for a friend on another board: https://imgur.com/gallery/4eTEv

 WindstormSCR wrote:
Wraithseers are fantastic, I've converted two and have yet to regret doing so. The invuln alone makes them considerably more durable than wraithlords, and they generally see use two ways: either as a running vehicle demolisher with a shuricannon wraithlord, or as an excellent heavy support element.

The use of one as a D-cannon platform cannot be understated, as unlike the regular support weapons it can actually take a decent hit of firepower and keep on giving out, while moving faster than the support weapons, and while supporting other units as well.

A conversion tutorial I put together for a friend on another board: https://imgur.com/gallery/4eTEv

Nice thats a good idea, I have an old Metal WL that I was gonna restore at some stage, might as well do this and make him a Wraithseer.

Just checking, that tutorial seems to end at the mounting of the force shield to the left arm, there's no description of how you made the staff/glaive. Is it supposed to end where it does or am I missing something?

Also, what'd be a good way to kitbash a D-cannon? The other bits are kinda self-explanatory, but the cannon's quite a bit bigger than the other weapons.

shortymcnostrill wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So a friend of mine is new to 40k and is building a Wraith-themed army, with Wraithblades, Wraithguard and Wraithlords as the theme of his list. I'm aware that outside Wraithguard these units aren't exactly considered the best units ever, but we've got a bunch of people with similarly (un)powerful lists so it ought to be fine. The question is, what goes well in a list themed around Wraith constructs? Is the ForgeWorld Wraithseer still a thing, and is it cripplingly bad or would it have a place in a Wraith construct list?

I run mine with a wraithcannon along with two lords*, it does ok. Its cc weapon is decent and it allows me to fire an anti-tank shot while advancing. I find its psychic powers barely worth the risk of a perils. A 5++ and 2 wounds sort of makes up for not having T8 in my meta, so I think it's ok for casual play.

Do not make it your warlord tho, and never give it the resurrection gem. That'll just make it a very tempting target for your opponent, and it isn't that hard to kill. I've also never given it a d-cannon for this reason, though I still want to try a d-cannon sniper warlord wraithseer one day...


* shuricannon + sword lords, flamers if I'm in the mood. They're essentially sm dreads with a customisable gun arm and a locked in power fist, you need to get them in cc to be remotely effective. I also repeatedly tried a twin bright lance counterassault role, but I just end up moving it to get in melee.

I've been trying to make a Wraith-themed list work for awhile now. It's really demoralizing that the FAQ didn't do anything to address the general suckiness of elite armies in 8th. :/

I have tried the Wraith-Sniper, though! It's honestly more effective for the sheer psychological effect. Since the D-Cannon can now fire without LoS, you can just park the Wraithseer behind a tall building and create a 24" bubble your opponent REALLY doesn't want to bring any HQ inside. Both times I've used it, my opponents said they were psyched out by it- but then found that it wasn't really as bad as they'd feared. (Turns out d3 / 3+ / 2+ d6W probably won't one-shot anything really important.)

 Dageran wrote:

shortymcnostrill wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So a friend of mine is new to 40k and is building a Wraith-themed army, with Wraithblades, Wraithguard and Wraithlords as the theme of his list. I'm aware that outside Wraithguard these units aren't exactly considered the best units ever, but we've got a bunch of people with similarly (un)powerful lists so it ought to be fine. The question is, what goes well in a list themed around Wraith constructs? Is the ForgeWorld Wraithseer still a thing, and is it cripplingly bad or would it have a place in a Wraith construct list?

I run mine with a wraithcannon along with two lords*, it does ok. Its cc weapon is decent and it allows me to fire an anti-tank shot while advancing. I find its psychic powers barely worth the risk of a perils. A 5++ and 2 wounds sort of makes up for not having T8 in my meta, so I think it's ok for casual play.

Do not make it your warlord tho, and never give it the resurrection gem. That'll just make it a very tempting target for your opponent, and it isn't that hard to kill. I've also never given it a d-cannon for this reason, though I still want to try a d-cannon sniper warlord wraithseer one day...


* shuricannon + sword lords, flamers if I'm in the mood. They're essentially sm dreads with a customisable gun arm and a locked in power fist, you need to get them in cc to be remotely effective. I also repeatedly tried a twin bright lance counterassault role, but I just end up moving it to get in melee.

I've been trying to make a Wraith-themed list work for awhile now. It's really demoralizing that the FAQ didn't do anything to address the general suckiness of elite armies in 8th. :/

I have tried the Wraith-Sniper, though! It's honestly more effective for the sheer psychological effect. Since the D-Cannon can now fire without LoS, you can just park the Wraithseer behind a tall building and create a 24" bubble your opponent REALLY doesn't want to bring any HQ inside. Both times I've used it, my opponents said they were psyched out by it- but then found that it wasn't really as bad as they'd feared. (Turns out d3 / 3+ / 2+ d6W probably won't one-shot anything really important.)

I find that the sniper D-cannon, like most things this edition, is more effective vs marines that are very heavily character reliant than any other target type.

 WindstormSCR wrote:

I find that the sniper D-cannon, like most things this edition, is more effective vs marines that are very heavily character reliant than any other target type.

Yeah, I'd definitely believe that. My local meta doesn't have any marines players, though, so I haven't really been able to judge if it's worth it. In my store / area it's generally accepted that model count / horde armies are more competitive.

Because of that, most of my wargear points goes into figuring out how to make a Wraith army usable against tyranids / IG / Nurgle cultist/poxwalker spam, and the D-Cannon doesn't see much play.
(Though, again, against smaller Death-guard HQs and Old-One-Eye the D-Cannon has still been situationally useful. )

I haven't used my Wraithseer since 8th ed. started. I'm reaally annoyed that he has "only" T7, while the Wraithlords are T8. It just... doesn't fit.
Also the Wraithseer is probably the only psycher without the smite power. His powers are not that strong, but smite could really be nice when you throw him against other characters.

I love my Wraithseer and my Wraithlords, I converted two of mine into awesome looking battlestances, but they sadly aren't that hot on the battlefield.

Although in my last game using one Wraithlord he really did some work against an chaos knight in melee. That S9 with the sword can really hurt big things.

With all the talk of big Wraith's i'm presently giggling to myself at the thought of crazy Iyanden lists.

469 points left for ranged weaponry and maybe throw in a Hemlock while you are at it.

Just updating my eldar tournament list and im 50/50 to keep the Ynari detachment in, with the points increases weve had and the deesptrike rules which dont really affect us, do max squads of reapers still work? Im thinking of putting min squads of 3 with tempest launchers in serpents along with dire avengers for cheap battalions as now we cant take kabalite warriors to fill the ynari detachment.

Think i will keep the big blob of guardians as a turn 2 option. Also playtesting 3 hemlocks as they can move 80' and still alpha units off the board.

Hey guys, I've heard a lot of people say the Wraithknight is pretty poor, but how bad is it? Is it to the point of being garbage or is it pretty good (especially with dem wraithcannons tho) just slightly over costed?

I got the model as a gift and am super psyched to build it, but interested to see if it truely is worthless or if I'm going to stand a chance with it in my army. Obviously I'll add it regardless for rule of cool though.

Cheers

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Hey guys, I've heard a lot of people say the Wraithknight is pretty poor, but how bad is it? Is it to the point of being garbage or is it pretty good (especially with dem wraithcannons tho) just slightly over costed?

I got the model as a gift and am super psyched to build it, but interested to see if it truely is worthless or if I'm going to stand a chance with it in my army. Obviously I'll add it regardless for rule of cool though.

Cheers

They're absolutely awful for all the reasons that IKs and Landraiders are, except even more costly for less effect.

consider this: for the ~450 a no-shooting glaiveknight would cost you, that is about the same cost as a knight warden that can do everything the wraithknight can, while also packing 3 guns and having a stratagem to improve its survivability, and you don't see wardens used much anywhere.

also to consider: for the price of a dual-cannon WK, you could take three Fire Prisms, which even unlinked will do average of 10 unsaved wounds to any T8 3+ target, compared to the average of 5.10 unsaved for a dual-cannon WK.

those same comparisons? Warden has about the same defenses, never has to give up its invuln, and can improve that invuln. the three fire prisms have 50% more wounds spread across three targets.

also to consider: for the price of a dual-cannon WK, you could take three Fire Prisms, which even unlinked will do average of 10 unsaved wounds to any T8 3+ target, compared to the average of 5.10 unsaved for a dual-cannon WK.

this.

 WindstormSCR wrote:
also to consider: for the price of a dual-cannon WK, you could take three Fire Prisms, which even unlinked will do average of 10 unsaved wounds to any T8 3+ target, compared to the average of 5.10 unsaved for a dual-cannon WK.

Ok that damage math for the Heavy Wraith Cannons doesn't stack up.... remotely. Even completely unbuffed I make its damage output at 7.78, considering its cost you should be giving it some sort of accuracy buff, either by getting spiritseers in close, using your Autarch or even Guide, then given that its your strongest anti-tank gun you should be using a CP re-roll in there somewhere and you can expect a dual-cannon WK to be popping a heavy vehicle every turn - especially with its Star Cannons on top.

Sure it needs support, but it's not as bad as you are making out.

The key point on a Wraith Knight is that to get full value out of the thing you need to get in close and make use of its melee attacks on top of the shooting. It's not a unit that will prove efficient if you just lurk at the back of the board.

 WindstormSCR wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:


Warden has about the same defenses, never has to give up its invuln...

Except in close combat. It has to give up its invulnerable in close combat as he gets none.
Your comparison is a bit flawed. A CC Wraithknight would demolish a Warden in close combat.
It's still horribly overcosted. But you don't give it any merit.

Lithanial wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
also to consider: for the price of a dual-cannon WK, you could take three Fire Prisms, which even unlinked will do average of 10 unsaved wounds to any T8 3+ target, compared to the average of 5.10 unsaved for a dual-cannon WK.

Ok that damage math for the Heavy Wraith Cannons doesn't stack up.... remotely. Even completely unbuffed I make its damage output at 7.78, considering its cost you should be giving it some sort of accuracy buff, either by getting spiritseers in close, using your Autarch or even Guide, then given that its your strongest anti-tank gun you should be using a CP re-roll in there somewhere and you can expect a dual-cannon WK to be popping a heavy vehicle every turn - especially with its Star Cannons on top.

Sure it needs support, but it's not as bad as you are making out.

The key point on a Wraith Knight is that to get full value out of the thing you need to get in close and make use of its melee attacks on top of the shooting. It's not a unit that will prove efficient if you just lurk at the back of the board.

You're right, you'd definitely buff a wraithknight, but you'd do the same for the prisms (he did say unlinked prisms, which are mediocre). In fact, all the prisms need is 1 cp to do 19(!) damage on average to a T8 3+ target from across the board. This also leaves you free to use Doom and guide to annihilate a second target.

The knight does have T8, but as WindstormSCR pointed out three prisms gets you 50% more wounds instead. However, the prisms do lose a lot of value after the first one dies, and 12 T7 3+ wounds aren't exactly hard to remove. I'd say the knight is better at staying useful while taking fire. I don't know if it is threatening enough to attract a lot of it, it's certainly not the killing machine it was before.

Wraithknight is pretty darn tough to get into cover also due to the height, while the Fire prisms find it comparatively easy (and you only have to expose 1 at all if using the stratagem). Pretty crucial consideration when comparing 2 units which dont have invulns.

Lithanial wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
also to consider: for the price of a dual-cannon WK, you could take three Fire Prisms, which even unlinked will do average of 10 unsaved wounds to any T8 3+ target, compared to the average of 5.10 unsaved for a dual-cannon WK.

Ok that damage math for the Heavy Wraith Cannons doesn't stack up.... remotely. Even completely unbuffed I make its damage output at 7.78, considering its cost you should be giving it some sort of accuracy buff, either by getting spiritseers in close, using your Autarch or even Guide, then given that its your strongest anti-tank gun you should be using a CP re-roll in there somewhere and you can expect a dual-cannon WK to be popping a heavy vehicle every turn - especially with its Star Cannons on top.

Sure it needs support, but it's not as bad as you are making out.

The key point on a Wraith Knight is that to get full value out of the thing you need to get in close and make use of its melee attacks on top of the shooting. It's not a unit that will prove efficient if you just lurk at the back of the board.

You're right, I had a slight error in the math I was using, http://puu.sh/A9ghb/f76447f4b3.jpg is the correct result.

that large standard deviation means the thing will swing wildly, but even at the best possible expected swing upwards, barely gets it over the prisms' average. and that's for unlinked prisms.

the prisms themselves are 10.68 std dev 4.3, so even on the bad end of average are EQUAL to the expected result for a WK. 1 CP gives them a built-in Doom and Guide effect, with no requirement for another 110+ pt HQ and the placement of said HQ.

Yes, all knights require melee to be useful, but the problem is that moving makes thier shooting even less worth it, and they will likely die or degrade severely before making combat against anything that costs enough to be worth hitting.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
You're right, you'd definitely buff a wraithknight, but you'd do the same for the prisms (he did say unlinked prisms, which are mediocre). In fact, all the prisms need is 1 cp to do 19(!) damage on average to a T8 3+ target from across the board. This also leaves you free to use Doom and guide to annihilate a second target.

The knight does have T8, but as WindstormSCR pointed out three prisms gets you 50% more wounds instead. However, the prisms do lose a lot of value after the first one dies, and 12 T7 3+ wounds aren't exactly hard to remove. I'd say the knight is better at staying useful while taking fire. I don't know if it is threatening enough to attract a lot of it, it's certainly not the killing machine it was before.

even losing one prism the remaining two have similar output to the WK at full capacity, and a non-iyanden wraithknight will degrade at that point, making it about equally worse. The key point is that yes T7 3+ is worse than T8, but because they are spread across three targets, it requires more weapons to take them out purely because "extra" damage over 12 is wasted each time.

this ability to punish "overkill" is at the core of why larger numbers of lower wound-count models are better than smaller numbers of models but the same wounds total this edition. its the central pillar of why the elite problem exists, because it allows multi-damage weapons to be efficient.

funnily enough, the WK and things like it are the perfect desirable target for the comparable 3 fire prism replacement, because linking fire forces them all on the same target!

What if you have a Farseer following it around with the relic to gain 12" movement and casting Guide and Fortune on it?

 Tiberius501 wrote:
What if you have a Farseer following it around with the relic to gain 12" movement and casting Guide and Fortune on it?

askl yourself what else could be benefitting from that single guide or fortune instead. It's not a terrible option, but again relies on the WK being able to get into melee with something big enough and worth enough to make the costs worthwhile, something that few lists will allow

 WindstormSCR wrote:
[
Yes, all knights require melee to be useful, but the problem is that moving makes thier shooting even less worth it, and they will likely die or degrade severely before making combat against anything that costs enough to be worth hitting.

I don't see how it makes their shooting less worth it. Most Knights get no negatives to hit when moving. The shooty WK can run and shoot at -1, but I don't think it's really worth it (as you won't be able to charge anyway). The fighty WK should be barebones to keep the cost low.

I think that (besides obvious overcosted) the problem for Knights is this paradox: they are mainly good against extra beefy targets; as long as those extra beefy targets aren't desirable, they won't be fielded, thus it will be even less worth it to use Knights. It's a difficult loop to break right now.

 DanielFM wrote:
I think that (besides obvious overcosted) the problem for Knights is this paradox: they are mainly good against extra beefy targets; as long as those extra beefy targets aren't desirable, they won't be fielded, thus it will be even less worth it to use Knights. It's a difficult loop to break right now.

On top of that, if you ever find yourself against a player who brought a unit that your WK would be good at killing (like a baneblade or a knight), then that player will just focus your WK down before it can do anything.
And if he didn't bring anything big, he can just ignore your WK because it will never make its points back killing small stuff.

So what would be a good fix for the knight? I feel like GW struggle to make big units both good and fun to use. Most seem either too easy to kill with too little effectiveness to begin with, or too powerful and is focused to death or it wins the day.

Anyway, that's more a discussion for another thread, if I were to use the knight, because it's just cool, I'm thinking of giving it the heavy wraithcannons and having it shoot vehicles and then meleeing things that get close or move across the table to melee things after shooting tanks/monsters

 Tiberius501 wrote:
So what would be a good fix for the knight?

Knock 50pts off the base cost and half the cost of the sun cannon and heavy wraith cannons. I don't think that will make it popular, but it would make it worth it enough if you want to use the model...

Make it better??? make the knight have something like a 16" move <.< the wraith knight should be the fastest knight. Doesn't make the biggest difference <.< but i mean >.>... it's eldar...

MrPieChee wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
So what would be a good fix for the knight?

Knock 50pts off the base cost and half the cost of the sun cannon and heavy wraith cannons. I don't think that will make it popular, but it would make it worth it enough if you want to use the model...

pretty much this. Cost for effect is the primary issue.