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Vaktathi wrote: Bolters wouldnt hit the broad side of a barn because they wouldnt reach their peak velocity until well after leaving the muzzle (RPG guns have been tried, they dont work well), on top of GW having given mulitple contradictory tracts on how they actually workFi.
Bolters are not Gyrojets. Every modern depiction of them, infact even the early ones, have been of a conventionally fired round with a secondary rocket motor after they leave the barrel at velocity. The contradiction has always been whether or not the round is cased or caseless, and presently its cased.
Those problems would still exist, you're still not reaching peak velocity until after leaving the muzzle, leaving the projectile more vulnerable to dispersion than it would be otherwise (same reason modern RPG's with booster charges have trouble hitting tank sized targets more than 50% of the time beyond a couple hundred meters) and resulting in minimum effective range issues. More to the point, rocket propulsion is only really necessary if the recoil required to move the payload by smokeless powder would exceed that of a feasible launcher and operator to withstand, and hence, why you have a light rocket launcher that blows most of it out the back in a big dangerous backblast and doesn't bother with a tightly matched stabilizing barrel that the rocket will have to struggle to push the projectile through (and a Bolter neither blows the blast out the back nor does it dispense with a barrel), otherwise you're just better off in general with a conventional firearm. Bolters are really imagined entirely around "rule of cool", nothing about them really makes sense from a firearms perspective.
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And then there's Azrael's Combiplasma, where there's no way to feed the bolt into the barrel without teleportation technology (the connection point between the bullpup magazine is somehow smaller than the actual barrel).
A lot of 40k's stuff was made by people eyeballing existing stuff without understanding how they're suppose to work.
Yes, the bolt is not actually modeled as behind the trigger as it should be.
Vaktathi wrote:Those problems would still exist, you're still not reaching peak velocity until after leaving the muzzle, leaving the projectile more vulnerable to dispersion than it would be otherwise (same reason modern RPG's with booster charges have trouble hitting tank sized targets more than 50% of the time beyond a couple hundred meters) and resulting in minimum effective range issues. More to the point, rocket propulsion is only really necessary if the recoil required to move the payload by smokeless powder would exceed that of a feasible launcher and operator to withstand, and hence, why you have a light rocket launcher that blows most of it out the back in a big dangerous backblast and doesn't bother with a tightly matched stabilizing barrel that the rocket will have to struggle to push the projectile through (and a Bolter neither blows the blast out the back nor does it dispense with a barrel), otherwise you're just better off in general with a conventional firearm. Bolters are really imagined entirely around "rule of cool", nothing about them really makes sense from a firearms perspective.
Dont think of the Bolter as an RPG in Rifle form, think of it as Rocket Assisted Artillery, or as similar in function to a LAHAT fired from a tank, but with out the guided function.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 22:10:54
Height = 11 feet = 3.3528 m
StopDist = 0.5 inches = 1.27 cm Correct g-Force Output = 264
So this is how one would find out how many G's are experienced during a fall. Assuming the Space Marine is say, falling down to Earth. That's 2000 kilometers, also 200000 meters. This Space Marine is pulling well over a MILLION G's on impact. THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY that a Space Marine would survive that fall. At best, this Space Marine and his brethren would be pancakes, at worst, they're tearing through the DAMN PLANET. So I get that we all love dropping our troops from orbit at high velocity not accounted for here as I'm using a human's terminal velocity instead, that adds EVEN MORE G's. There is NO WAY that a human can be altered to survive millions of G's. Accelerating at 70 G's is literally impossible UNLESS a human being is modified SO HEAVILY that they'd barely even be called human at that point.
So I have one question for everyone else, what other insane math is in 40k that makes no sense at all?(I have some other numbers as well but hey, I'm open to discussion.)
Modelling his descent with a vertical fall near earth's surface is intuitively erroneous. First, and obviously, the acceleration due to gravity isn't 9.8m/s^2 when he's not close to earth's surface, and second, it does fails to account for the tangential velocity keeping him in orbit.
You've neglected air friction, so we'll continue to assume he's jumping out onto an airless, smooth planet that has radius and mass identical to earth. If he jumps out of the battle barge hangar bay, he's not going to fall to the planet, he's just going to float around, because he's going fast enough that he'll be past the planet by the time he hits the surface. We don't just shoot him at the planet, because that doesn't work, what we're going to do is slow him down so that the periapsis of his new orbit is at the surface of the planet.
The speed in orbit can be computed as v = sqrt(GM(2/r-1/a)), where are is the radius at the point and a is the semimajor axis. For a circular orbit [a=r] at the altitude you offered [2000km, which is high for LEO], he's travelling at 6939.14m/s in orbit.
The spacecraft will slow him down so he enters an eccentric orbit whose periapsis is at the planet's surface [r=6278km] and whose apoapsis is at the spacecraft's current altitude [r=8278km]. The semi-major axis of this new orbit is 7278km. His new speed at apoapsis is 6444.82m/s, and his speed at periapsis is 8497.96m/s.
Now, at periapsis, he's at the same place as the ground, but he's moving faster than the ground is, and needs to slow down, but they're both moving in the same direction. The speed the ground moves is 7968.16m/s.
During the process, he loses 494.32m/s of v in orbit, when the spacecraft shoots him out of the drop-pod tube, and he loses another 529.8m/s at arrival. 529.8m/s is quite a bit of speed to lose quickly but it's a lot less than if you model it as a vertical fall near earth.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/31 22:52:40
BL had a short where a marine was knocked out of the exploding thunder hawk he was in. Damaged his jump pack.
He fired off a few mags from his pistol on the way down, then aimed himself at a Dread or Rhino.
But regular squishy humies survive every now and then, now reason it couldnt be slightly more common amongst marines.
I just figure the power armor protects the squishiness inside much like the exoskeleton of an ant. Flick an ant to the ground and it just simply scurries off, unharmed.
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kaotkbliss wrote: I just figure the power armor protects the squishiness inside much like the exoskeleton of an ant. Flick an ant to the ground and it just simply scurries off, unharmed.
That's not how it works. It's because ants are small, not because they have an exoskeleton.
Haven't really read through the thread so this may have been answered in more detail, but as far as 40k goes, dropping marines onto a planet is pretty tame. I don't know the lore extremely well, but presumably a drop pod full of marines will be launched from a ship from low orbit
Most of the drop pods velocity will be bled off in the upper parts of the atmosphere. Furthermore, most of the velocity the pod needs to worry about is actually in the horizontal direction since it's coming from orbit.
While it's possible to launch on a trajectory that can pull immense g's, problems with atmospheric entry will typically be more heat realated.
Eventually the pod would settle in at terminal velocity (which also decreases with altitude). The pods we used prior to shuttles worked a lot like this except that they used parachutes instead of boosters before hitting the ground.
kaotkbliss wrote: I just figure the power armor protects the squishiness inside much like the exoskeleton of an ant. Flick an ant to the ground and it just simply scurries off, unharmed.
Not at all. A hard enough impact will still break bones or tear organs from their supporting muscles simply due to the inertia of the bone/organ/whatever.
I think part of the misconception is from people playing the Dawn of War games, where drop pods in game hit the ground like meteors then smash who ever they land on. (which is ironic since the classic cinematic shows them decelerating through their jets.)
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generalchaos34 wrote: I think part of the misconception is from people playing the Dawn of War games, where drop pods in game hit the ground like meteors then smash who ever they land on. (which is ironic since the classic cinematic shows them decelerating through their jets.)
To be fair I'm pretty sure they still land with a pretty decent impact.
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Containment_Failure wrote:Another person that plays entirely too much KSP.
. I don't actually play KSP, because after some time I realized I had produced a notepad full of math that was functionally indistinguishable from my homework. I am a strong believer in the separation of work and leisure.
generalchaos34 wrote:I think part of the misconception is from people playing the Dawn of War games, where drop pods in game hit the ground like meteors then smash who ever they land on. (which is ironic since the classic cinematic shows them decelerating through their jets.)
They still hit pretty hard, all things considered. Even with thrusters, the landing won't be soft. As I understand it, the thrusters provide just enough delta-v for the impact not to be bone-shattering for the Space Marines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/02 00:19:48
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Don't forget that Space Marines can fight fairly well even with small fractures or torn ligaments in some places (obviously not with full breaks because then the skeletal muscle structure breaks down if you keep moving it).
I'd suspect after a drop pod assault there'd be a few fractured ankles or wrists or whathaveyou. The fragile bits almost certainly break, but the SM's resiliency lets them fight on!
generalchaos34 wrote: I think part of the misconception is from people playing the Dawn of War games, where drop pods in game hit the ground like meteors then smash who ever they land on. (which is ironic since the classic cinematic shows them decelerating through their jets.)
To be fair I'm pretty sure they still land with a pretty decent impact.
Indeed. If the drop pod weren't slowed we wouldn't be able to see its descent at all -- it would simply go from not being there to being there, too fast for us to observe.
Also dropping from an extraplanetary orbit has less to do with speed from gravitational potential and more to do with orbital velocities. Quite possible for something to drop though the skies at faster than terminal velocity if they started off much faster. You just end up with problems of eating due to air compression and machinery forces tearing you apart.
I have to point out that if I was heading towards a battle on the ground at hypersonic speeds, scoffing the snack my mum packed for me would be the least of my concerns.
Although it could be filmed and put on telly, like they did with those scouts on a roller coaster
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Torga_DW wrote: I know in halo they had spartans falling from orbit and surviving, but that's a different kettle of fish. Marines don't do that, and i would assume their insertion gear has gravity and inertia dampeners and stuff to handwavium away the rest.
They also have recharging energy shields powered by handwavium and with a strength that varies depending on the situation. In one moment it is deflecting ATGMs and 57mm autocannon blasts (Fall of Reach) and in another a few solid handgun hits drains the shield (the videogames).
So yeah.
Halo. Neat.
Without turning into a marine vs spartan match up...
And we all know who win of course
The fact is that the drop pod has counter trust in its final decent phase, secured seats and there Armour is extremely tough and well fitted to better withstand the impact as they hit ground.
Its not as bad as you think.
The drop pod is a far more sensible one I admit... This is 40k. What am I saying lol. Then a sheild and some chunk of star ship with no retro rockets.
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Eh, I just imagine that instead of slamming into the ground at terminal velocity (which would probably bury the pod neck-deep in the ground and leave an impressive crater anyway, the terminal velocity of a metal cylinder is much higher than that of a person), it just fires retro rockets and hovers to a landing like a SpaceX rocket.
ross-128 wrote: Eh, I just imagine that instead of slamming into the ground at terminal velocity (which would probably bury the pod neck-deep in the ground and leave an impressive crater anyway, the terminal velocity of a metal cylinder is much higher than that of a person), it just fires retro rockets and hovers to a landing like a SpaceX rocket.
The smoke and slamming force from thr drop pod landing is slightly deliberate. It's shock and awe. It also means the enemy are less able to react to the pod.
Its meant to impact with ernough force to Suprise but not beat up its occupants.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
In reality, if something the size and density of a drop pod hit a planetary surface at orbital speeds, it would explore like a nuclear bomb and leave behind a huge, circular crater.
Thankfully, they don’t.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
2017/11/03 19:30:21
Subject: Re:Space Marines Can Survive WHAT!?!?!?!!?
The Space Marines all jump straight up as the pod hits the ground. This totally cancels the force of impact, just like a modern-day plummeting elevator. You’d be absolutely safe if you did that.
Also dropping from an extraplanetary orbit has less to do with speed from gravitational potential and more to do with orbital velocities. Quite possible for something to drop though the skies at faster than terminal velocity if they started off much faster. You just end up with problems of eating due to air compression and machinery forces tearing you apart.
I have to point out that if I was heading towards a battle on the ground at hypersonic speeds, scoffing the snack my mum packed for me would be the least of my concerns.
Although it could be filmed and put on telly, like they did with those scouts on a roller coaster
Ah. Unintended comedy through autocorrect. Is there anything it can't doing?
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Vaktathi wrote:A Space Marine chapter fighting a planetary war would be isolated, cut to pieces and destroyed in detail by almost any competent foe because there arent enough SM's to cover much more than a few hundred meters of ground at a time, die to heavy artillery and crew served weapons almost as easily as normal humans, and have no way to replace casualties in a time effective manner..
Well, from what I've remembered they're basically always On The Bounce and don't really do pitched battle with conventional forces (because yeah, they'd not do so well for long). They should Drop Pod / Fly in, mangle their target (which is probably defended entirely with small arms, if at all), and extract.
Vaktathi wrote:A Space Marine chapter fighting a planetary war would be isolated, cut to pieces and destroyed in detail by almost any competent foe because there arent enough SM's to cover much more than a few hundred meters of ground at a time, die to heavy artillery and crew served weapons almost as easily as normal humans, and have no way to replace casualties in a time effective manner..
Well, from what I've remembered they're basically always On The Bounce and don't really do pitched battle with conventional forces (because yeah, they'd not do so well for long). They should Drop Pod / Fly in, mangle their target (which is probably defended entirely with small arms, if at all), and extract.
More like SFOD-D, but wearing a small tank.
M.
the problem is that half the GW fluff has them fighting pitched battles, prolonged campaigns, large scale direct assaults on massive fortifications, engaging in sieges, fighting in places where air transport or drop pods arent capable of reaching, etc
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Vaktathi wrote:A Space Marine chapter fighting a planetary war would be isolated, cut to pieces and destroyed in detail by almost any competent foe because there arent enough SM's to cover much more than a few hundred meters of ground at a time, die to heavy artillery and crew served weapons almost as easily as normal humans, and have no way to replace casualties in a time effective manner..
Well, from what I've remembered they're basically always On The Bounce and don't really do pitched battle with conventional forces (because yeah, they'd not do so well for long). They should Drop Pod / Fly in, mangle their target (which is probably defended entirely with small arms, if at all), and extract.
More like SFOD-D, but wearing a small tank.
M.
the problem is that half the GW fluff has them fighting pitched battles, prolonged campaigns, large scale direct assaults on massive fortifications, engaging in sieges, fighting in places where air transport or drop pods arent capable of reaching, etc
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