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Made in us
Proud Triarch Praetorian





 Crazyterran wrote:
Someone who supports Sylvanas saying there's no good and evil on Azeroth.

Excuse me while I go laugh.


There isnt among the Alliance and Horde. It is all about survival.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

You know how the Alliance DIDN'T genocide the Horde after Siege of Orgrimmar? Yeah, would Sylvanas have done that if the roles were reversed? No? Then she's probably a wee bit evil.

"It's all about survival" is a cop-out, you can justify literally anything with that.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

So, last night I finished getting class mounts for five classes and even got a couple of rare spawn pets for my hunter. All just under the wire.

Not that it matters much. Apparently nobody can log into WoW at the moment.


 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

Sylvanas didn’t have Valkyr positioned at the Broken Shore because she was anticipating a loss - she was planning on attacking the Alliance as far back as Legion, and dragging the Horde/Voljin in with her.


 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Breotan wrote:
So, last night I finished getting class mounts for five classes and even got a couple of rare spawn pets for my hunter. All just under the wire.

Not that it matters much. Apparently nobody can log into WoW at the moment.


What are the class mounts like? I'm interested to see what Rogues and Hunters got.
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

I just leveled to 103 with a friend, but it's 4AM here now so it's sleep time. Zuldazar is AMAZING so far and living up to every piece of hype and beyond. It looked smaller than Suramar but it's actually bigger! The music, the voices, all great! Of course people will find some excuse to hate it anyway but I couldn't be more satisfied.

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
So, last night I finished getting class mounts for five classes and even got a couple of rare spawn pets for my hunter. All just under the wire.

Not that it matters much. Apparently nobody can log into WoW at the moment.


What are the class mounts like? I'm interested to see what Rogues and Hunters got.


Hunters get a wolfhawk.

Spoiler:


Rogues get essentially a big raven.

My favourite is easily the priest mount. It's like an owl gryphon. It used to look even cooler before its particle effects got nerfed because some people were bothered by them :(





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You know how the Alliance DIDN'T genocide the Horde after Siege of Orgrimmar? Yeah, would Sylvanas have done that if the roles were reversed? No? Then she's probably a wee bit evil.

"It's all about survival" is a cop-out, you can justify literally anything with that.


This. Sylvanas is a genocidal maniac and enemy of life itself. She is worse than Garrosh - she is more comparable to Arthas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/14 02:07:13


I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in us
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Oh yeah, how many genocides has Sylvanas been involved in?

You know, despite her own faction and the rest of the world being hostile towards her and her people, she has been pretty reserved for a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac. Or it is all hyperbole and she is "bad" because she is Undead.
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
So, last night I finished getting class mounts for five classes and even got a couple of rare spawn pets for my hunter. All just under the wire.

Not that it matters much. Apparently nobody can log into WoW at the moment.

What are the class mounts like? I'm interested to see what Rogues and Hunters got.

Demon Hunters get a Felbroken Shrieker (https://www.warcraftmounts.com/mounts/slayersfelbrokenshrieker.php).
Hunters get two Warhawks (https://www.wowhead.com/item=142226/trust-of-a-fierce-wolfhawk) or the ability to tame "hybrid" beasts, which is a new class.
Mages get a Magical Saucer (https://www.wowhead.com/item=147832/magical-saucer) that changes color depending on your spec.
Shaman get the Farseer's Raging Tempest (https://www.wowhead.com/spell=231442/farseers-raging-tempest) that changes form between air, fire, and water depending on spec.
Warriors get a War Wyrm (https://www.wowhead.com/item=142232/iron-reins-of-the-bloodthirsty-war-wyrm) that also changes color depending on spec.

I don't have any other classes at 110 so this is all I got. You can check out Wowhead for more information on class mounts.


 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Oh yeah, how many genocides has Sylvanas been involved in?

You know, despite her own faction and the rest of the world being hostile towards her and her people, she has been pretty reserved for a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac. Or it is all hyperbole and she is "bad" because she is Undead.


She attempted it in Teldrassil and kills any living Lordaeron human she can, and her stated goal is to kill all humans and raise them into something she describes as a curse (unless it suits her to do otherwise).

I know you are desperate to find a redeeming quality for Sylvanas/the Horde, but...

I mean, heck, Stormsong questing makes the Horde look even worse. The it’s survival bs isn’t a thing, since the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
Proud Triarch Praetorian





 Crazyterran wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
Oh yeah, how many genocides has Sylvanas been involved in?

You know, despite her own faction and the rest of the world being hostile towards her and her people, she has been pretty reserved for a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac. Or it is all hyperbole and she is "bad" because she is Undead.


She attempted it in Teldrassil and kills any living Lordaeron human she can, and her stated goal is to kill all humans and raise them into something she describes as a curse (unless it suits her to do otherwise).

I know you are desperate to find a redeeming quality for Sylvanas/the Horde, but...

I mean, heck, Stormsong questing makes the Horde look even worse. The it’s survival bs isn’t a thing, since the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out.


Lol, the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out?

I'm not really trying to find redeeming qualities for her. Up until Cataclysm her goals were to survive and kill Arthas. Pretty much full stop. Before Cataclysm, both factions were both good and bad. They each had their own issues. But they were not good or evil. Once Cataclysm dropped, it was clear the Horde was put on the road of the "bad guys". I mean, Thrall put Garrosh in charge because he was his buddies kid. He is a barely functioning rageaholic.

I mean, the Horde are the bad guys now. Sylvanus is evil now. But that was not always true.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Back during Vanilla, I noted that while both factions spent a lot of time fighting against bandits and non-Horde orcs and trolls (Blackrock orcs, etc...), only the Horde had a questline that involved wiping out a settlement belonging to the other faction. A group of Alliance farmers caught some members of the Horde snooping around, and imprisoned them. The punishment for such an act, of course, was to wipe out the town in question.

If there was a similar questline for the Alliance, I somehow managed to miss it.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Dreadwinter wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
Oh yeah, how many genocides has Sylvanas been involved in?

You know, despite her own faction and the rest of the world being hostile towards her and her people, she has been pretty reserved for a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac. Or it is all hyperbole and she is "bad" because she is Undead.


She attempted it in Teldrassil and kills any living Lordaeron human she can, and her stated goal is to kill all humans and raise them into something she describes as a curse (unless it suits her to do otherwise).

I know you are desperate to find a redeeming quality for Sylvanas/the Horde, but...

I mean, heck, Stormsong questing makes the Horde look even worse. The it’s survival bs isn’t a thing, since the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out.


Lol, the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out?


No, they haven't. They had the Horde at their mercy after the second war and didn't, and had them at their mercy again after the Siege of Orgrimmar and didn't.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Proud Triarch Praetorian





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
Oh yeah, how many genocides has Sylvanas been involved in?

You know, despite her own faction and the rest of the world being hostile towards her and her people, she has been pretty reserved for a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac. Or it is all hyperbole and she is "bad" because she is Undead.


She attempted it in Teldrassil and kills any living Lordaeron human she can, and her stated goal is to kill all humans and raise them into something she describes as a curse (unless it suits her to do otherwise).

I know you are desperate to find a redeeming quality for Sylvanas/the Horde, but...

I mean, heck, Stormsong questing makes the Horde look even worse. The it’s survival bs isn’t a thing, since the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out.


Lol, the Alliance has never made moves to wipe the Horde out?


No, they haven't. They had the Horde at their mercy after the second war and didn't, and had them at their mercy again after the Siege of Orgrimmar and didn't.


We dont remember the internment camps? The major backstory of Thrall? The opening of WC3 where they are trying to escape extermination?

Sure, the Alliance are angels! Lol
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Just my two cents but I'm a little annoyed at how BFA starts. Compared to the Alliance the Horde side characters are nowhere near as developed and their roster keeps getting killed off/thrown off the moral event horizon. Good ol Banshee is the only one of them with anything approaching a deep character because for whatever reason Blizzard keeps killing off the interesting Horde leaders before they get to actually do anything (Cairne and Vol'Jin), while those who remain are either boring or generally tacked on. Baine has all the character of a cardboard box, the Trolls don't really have anyone now, Lor'themar could be interesting if the plot wasn't always forgetting he exists, and has Gallywix done anything since Cataclysm? They really need to put some effort on developing the other Horde leaders or this is gonna get really stale.

I think the writers are writing themselves into a corner here, but then maybe they're getting ready to wrap up WoW in the next few years and don't care?

Not to even mention that Thrall's absence from a leadership position in the faction he basically founded is starting to get really glaring. Like a full on moral failing on his part really. First he picks someone completely unqualified to lead anyone for "reasons" and then the one guy left who actually had a good, mostly stable, head on his shoulders is offed by a trash mob and he just sits back and does nothing as Sylvanas literally burns the world down around her out what I can only see as spite. How Thrall can actually live with himself staying out of things is kind of baffling to me.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/17 05:44:03


   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




 Dreadwinter wrote:

We dont remember the internment camps? The major backstory of Thrall? The opening of WC3 where they are trying to escape extermination?

Sure, the Alliance are angels! Lol


If the Alliance had been trying to exterminate them, then they wouldn't have been in internment camps. They'd have been dead. The Alliance could have slaughtered the Horde at the end of the second war. It didn't. But you can't exactly leave a homeless, hostile army running loose in your territory. So the members of the Horde were put into the camps while the Alliance tried to figure out what to do with them. Then the Alliance fell apart (Stormwind, Lordaeron, and possibly Ironforge were pretty much the only active members at that point), the members of the Horde turned apathetic (a result of going cold turkey off of demon blood, though the Alliance had no way of knowing about it), and then Medivh arrived to convince Thrall to take the Horde to Kalimdor.

So since you apparently equate keeping PoWs in camps as "genocide", what would your solution have been? How do you think the members of the Alliance should have dealt with the Horde army after defeating them in the second war? The Alliance couldn't send them home because the Black Gate was gone. The Alliance couldn't leave the orcs loose because they'd probably start fighting against the local citizens again (as seen with the various groups of orcs that aren't a part of the Horde, such as the Dragonmaw and Blackrock). It's possible that absent the lethargy and the Burning Legion's arrival, that something productive could have been done with the defeated members of the Horde. But any such solution would have been very long term, and required keeping the members of the Horde in camps until the solutions were worked out.


Lor'themar could be interesting if the plot wasn't always forgetting he exists


Velen (and the Draenei in general) had the same problem for quite a while. And when he finally did get pushed to a prominent role, it was actually his alternate history counter-part that we got exposed to in Warlords (right up until his early heroic sacrifice, anyway). It wasn't until Legion that "our" Velen finally got a prominent position in the spotlight. Of course, given the subject matter of Legion, questions would have been asked if Velen *didn't* have a prominent role in it.
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Yeah it's why I didn't mention Velen, even though I'd argue that for a long time the Draenei were the most "what are they doing anyway" race in WoW for a solid four or five expansions. And honestly I'm not counting Warlords, cause alternate time Draenei might as well be a whole other faction (the alternate time Orcs basically are ) Even the Blood Evles got to show up and do things now than then here and there.

I'm still kind of surprised how little characters and specific plot lines advance expansion to expansion in a lot of ways. Despite it's large size and lots of room to develop the NPC cast of the game most of them get sidelined for years until a writer remembers they exist and brings them back up. I dully expect the Dark Spear trolls will not advance much in BFA, despite the Zandalari presenting a rather topical chance to kind of bring up a new leader for the faction + some new side characters. There's basically what now? Rokhan? Anyone else? Anyone? Bueller?

Really we could afford an expansion at this point that just focuses on the large number of perpetually dangling minor plot threads hanging around the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 05:45:22


   
Made in us
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Eumerin wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:

We dont remember the internment camps? The major backstory of Thrall? The opening of WC3 where they are trying to escape extermination?

Sure, the Alliance are angels! Lol


If the Alliance had been trying to exterminate them, then they wouldn't have been in internment camps. They'd have been dead. The Alliance could have slaughtered the Horde at the end of the second war. It didn't. But you can't exactly leave a homeless, hostile army running loose in your territory. So the members of the Horde were put into the camps while the Alliance tried to figure out what to do with them. Then the Alliance fell apart (Stormwind, Lordaeron, and possibly Ironforge were pretty much the only active members at that point), the members of the Horde turned apathetic (a result of going cold turkey off of demon blood, though the Alliance had no way of knowing about it), and then Medivh arrived to convince Thrall to take the Horde to Kalimdor.

So since you apparently equate keeping PoWs in camps as "genocide", what would your solution have been? How do you think the members of the Alliance should have dealt with the Horde army after defeating them in the second war? The Alliance couldn't send them home because the Black Gate was gone. The Alliance couldn't leave the orcs loose because they'd probably start fighting against the local citizens again (as seen with the various groups of orcs that aren't a part of the Horde, such as the Dragonmaw and Blackrock). It's possible that absent the lethargy and the Burning Legion's arrival, that something productive could have been done with the defeated members of the Horde. But any such solution would have been very long term, and required keeping the members of the Horde in camps until the solutions were worked out.


You know what you do when you are exterminating a population? You quietly round them up in to camps and slowly kill them. Which is what was happening. You don't start wholesale slaughter until you capture all of them and don't have to worry about the rest of the friends coming to bust them out. Warsong and Frostwolf were still on the loose and fighting, so the Alliance couldn't do what you are asserting here. A really famous guy perfected this method in RL.

So what was their endgame with the camps? You cannot imprison an entire population indefinitely? The adults were not going to become slaves. So what do you think was happening? Lol pow camps. Just lol

I agree entirely with LordofHats. The Horde is boned beyond repair at this point and there is only one feth up to blame for it. Thrall.
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

I really enjoyed the battle for lordaeron! Felt quite epic and really showed off the engine improvements in wow since I last played. Tonnes going on during the fight with some cool moments.
Levelling seems reeeeally fast though?

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Dreadwinter wrote:
Eumerin wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:

We dont remember the internment camps? The major backstory of Thrall? The opening of WC3 where they are trying to escape extermination?

Sure, the Alliance are angels! Lol


If the Alliance had been trying to exterminate them, then they wouldn't have been in internment camps. They'd have been dead. The Alliance could have slaughtered the Horde at the end of the second war. It didn't. But you can't exactly leave a homeless, hostile army running loose in your territory. So the members of the Horde were put into the camps while the Alliance tried to figure out what to do with them. Then the Alliance fell apart (Stormwind, Lordaeron, and possibly Ironforge were pretty much the only active members at that point), the members of the Horde turned apathetic (a result of going cold turkey off of demon blood, though the Alliance had no way of knowing about it), and then Medivh arrived to convince Thrall to take the Horde to Kalimdor.

So since you apparently equate keeping PoWs in camps as "genocide", what would your solution have been? How do you think the members of the Alliance should have dealt with the Horde army after defeating them in the second war? The Alliance couldn't send them home because the Black Gate was gone. The Alliance couldn't leave the orcs loose because they'd probably start fighting against the local citizens again (as seen with the various groups of orcs that aren't a part of the Horde, such as the Dragonmaw and Blackrock). It's possible that absent the lethargy and the Burning Legion's arrival, that something productive could have been done with the defeated members of the Horde. But any such solution would have been very long term, and required keeping the members of the Horde in camps until the solutions were worked out.


You know what you do when you are exterminating a population? You quietly round them up in to camps and slowly kill them. Which is what was happening. You don't start wholesale slaughter until you capture all of them and don't have to worry about the rest of the friends coming to bust them out. Warsong and Frostwolf were still on the loose and fighting, so the Alliance couldn't do what you are asserting here. A really famous guy perfected this method in RL.

So what was their endgame with the camps? You cannot imprison an entire population indefinitely? The adults were not going to become slaves. So what do you think was happening? Lol pow camps. Just lol

I agree entirely with LordofHats. The Horde is boned beyond repair at this point and there is only one feth up to blame for it. Thrall.
So you really don't know the backstory at all do you? The internment camps were because they rounded them up, but the Orcs were feeling the loss of demonblood and as a result were a very lethargic people afterwords.. Because the Alliance was not sure what was going on with them afterwords, when they could've just straight up killed them. They had no reason to build camps to hold them and figure out what was wrong, Genn Greymane was one of the ones in the "Why are we spending money on these rather then killing orcs" camp and it's one of the reasons why he decided to build the wall and just ignore things afterwords. Heck, the whole Thrall backstory was because of one man who was trying to build up the Orcs again because he wanted to conquer the alliance himself using an Orc Slave army!

It's hilarious how you are reaching though to defend Sylvanas... Quietly rounding up Orcs like they were just peaceful citizens living in Alliance towns. Come on man.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 10:20:41


 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

So: War Mode. Dumb idea or dumbest idea? I'm in a Mythic raiding guild. I have 0 interest in world PvP (which is generally just someone jumping someone else who can't defend themselves), but I do have an interest in Azerite. Is it reasonable to expect people like me to sacrifice our fun so the dudebros who spend their time corpse camping people can have theirs?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Isnt warmode toggleable on/off?

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Yes, but you get 10% more rewards from World Quests for having it on. In a min/max context, that's kinda important.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes, but you get 10% more rewards from World Quests for having it on. In a min/max context, that's kinda important.


Not really. 10% is not enough of a boost to make up for time lost to the PvP mode, from a min/max perspective.
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


It's hilarious how you are reaching though to defend Sylvanas...


To be fair I think she was defensible right up until she decided to burn down an entire city (with a thousand unarmed civilians still inside) out of pure spite.

Her initial plan, while certainly of the highly questionable variety, wasn't that insane. Take Teldrassil and try to force peace with the Alliance on her terms by shaking up the generally selfish motivations of the individual players. Sylvanas presumed war was inevitable between the Alliance and the Horde, and while Anduin seems like a peace minded fellow, he's got Genn and Jaina as his closest advisors. Of those two one has an extremely personal and overt vendetta against Sylvanas (with good reason), and the other has been all but screaming for war for years (also with good reason). That's a situation where its really reasonable for her to assume war is an inevitability once the overarching threats before them are wiped off the board so strike first and force peace. It's a poorly devised plan imo, but it's the kind of realpolitik that happens in the real world all the time.

It also happened to be a scenario where every player involved had somewhat sympathetic or understandable reasons for their positions.

Then the writers just shoved Sylvanas off the moral event horizon, removing any real understandability her character had up to that point. The writers jumped the shark with Sylvanas just liked they jumped it with Garrosh. Instead of presenting an aggressive leader willing to take the Horde to war, they put up a total monster who makes all the other characters look like patsy and is not remotely sympathetic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 23:51:46


   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




 Dreadwinter wrote:

You know what you do when you are exterminating a population? You quietly round them up in to camps and slowly kill them.


So according to your line of thinking, the Alliance avoided slaughtering the Horde wholesale during the second war by imprisoning them in camps... just so that they could slaughter the Horde in the camps.

How does that make even the SLIGHTEST bit of sense?

Warsong and Frostwolf were still on the loose and fighting,


No, all the Alliance had to do was to say, "We don't accept your surrender. Die." Goodbye Horde. The Warsong, Frostwolf, Dragonmaw, Blackrock, and other groups only survived by avoiding head-on confrontations with the Alliance military. The bulk of the orcish armies could have been wiped out by just refusing to accept their surrender. And there's nothing that the Warsong, Frostwolf, Dragonmaw, Blackrock, and other orcish groups could have done to prevent that. The orcs had tried to beat the Alliance military with a head on confrontation under Doomhammer during the Second War. That had failed (in part because Guldan took part of the army and ran off to the Tomb of Sargeras; but that's neither here nor there), and the Alliance graciously decided to only imprison the survivors instead of massacre them. If the orcs couldn't win at their peak strength, there was no way that they were going to win when they were weak and scattered.

So what was their endgame with the camps? You cannot imprison an entire population indefinitely?


I talked about this above. The orcs went into withdrawal due to the loss of demon blood. The Alliance was busy trying to figure out what was wrong with the orcs. Until they did that, there wasn't much point in trying to rehabilitate them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
Yeah it's why I didn't mention Velen, even though I'd argue that for a long time the Draenei were the most "what are they doing anyway" race in WoW for a solid four or five expansions.


This got lampshaded in Wrath. There was a Draenei delegation in Northrend practically begging the local Alliance leader at the docks on the western end of the continent to be allowed to bring in a contingent of Draenei priests and paladins to assist. It would seem an obvious move, since the Draenei are closer to the Light than any of the other races, and the focus of the expansion was undead. Draenei priests and paladins would have been a big help. Unfortunately, for reasons that they didn't understand, the local leader was refusing their request. It turned out that he was secretly a member of the Cult of the Damned, and he was undoubtedly keeping the Draenei out under Arthas's orders.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/18 05:45:26


 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Thats funny

   
Made in us
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Eumerin wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:

You know what you do when you are exterminating a population? You quietly round them up in to camps and slowly kill them.


So according to your line of thinking, the Alliance avoided slaughtering the Horde wholesale during the second war by imprisoning them in camps... just so that they could slaughter the Horde in the camps.

How does that make even the SLIGHTEST bit of sense?

Warsong and Frostwolf were still on the loose and fighting,


No, all the Alliance had to do was to say, "We don't accept your surrender. Die." Goodbye Horde. The Warsong, Frostwolf, Dragonmaw, Blackrock, and other groups only survived by avoiding head-on confrontations with the Alliance military. The bulk of the orcish armies could have been wiped out by just refusing to accept their surrender. And there's nothing that the Warsong, Frostwolf, Dragonmaw, Blackrock, and other orcish groups could have done to prevent that. The orcs had tried to beat the Alliance military with a head on confrontation under Doomhammer during the Second War. That had failed (in part because Guldan took part of the army and ran off to the Tomb of Sargeras; but that's neither here nor there), and the Alliance graciously decided to only imprison the survivors instead of massacre them. If the orcs couldn't win at their peak strength, there was no way that they were going to win when they were weak and scattered.

So what was their endgame with the camps? You cannot imprison an entire population indefinitely?


I talked about this above. The orcs went into withdrawal due to the loss of demon blood. The Alliance was busy trying to figure out what was wrong with the orcs. Until they did that, there wasn't much point in trying to rehabilitate them.


The reason the Alliance didn't slaughter the remaining clans is because doing so would have cost too much. Stormwind had fallen and Lordaeron was not in good shape. It would have been silly for them to attempt to press the attack,

But you know what, it is silly for the Alliance to round up Orcs in to internment camps to kill them. Those things have never been effective. I dont think there is a single instance in history where a population was imprisoned and executed in a camp such as this.

Do you read what you type?
   
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The reason the Alliance didn't slaughter the remaining clans is because doing so would have cost too much. Stormwind had fallen and Lordaeron was not in good shape. It would have been silly for them to attempt to press the attack,
It was cheaper to build camps, find the orcs.. and just put them in there, rather then just.. y'know, killing them where they were.. Instead the cheaper option was building camps, feeding them, and overall just..

But you know what, it is silly for the Alliance to round up Orcs in to internment camps to kill them. Those things have never been effective. I dont think there is a single instance in history where a population was imprisoned and executed in a camp such as this
You really are reaching aren't you? Once again, do you think they were just pulling orcs from cities? Rather then... y'know, having to go through places like Blackrock Mountain. Fortresses, war camps, places they had razed previously. And then getting all these orcs back to Alliance lands through hostile territory, feeding them, giving them food, water, and some sort of shelter... Seriously though, keep it up this is making my day.


To be fair I think she was defensible right up until she decided to burn down an entire city (with a thousand unarmed civilians still inside) out of pure spite.
Well if we're going to forget the whole plague usage, the general assassinations, the things.. It's less that it's defensible for the Horde to strike first.. But moreso for the Forsaken to strike first because everyone (except Jaina, who hates Orcs because of Garrosh) wants Sylvanas, because Sylvanas has pissed off so many power players that if she didn't get the Horde behind her and fighting. They might've just overall cut the Forsaken and let them rot thanks to their actions all these years.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/18 15:40:34


 
   
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SpaceCoast

Dread,

Eumerin's POV is supported by established lore. Your POV is speculation and relies on speculation of what might have happened if you're properly reading the minds of fictional characters. So yeah typical Hordie head cannon to try and drag the alliance down to the level of their current leadership.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/18 15:43:34


 
   
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well if we're going to forget the whole plague usage, the general assassinations, the things.. It's less that it's defensible for the Horde to strike first.. But moreso for the Forsaken to strike first because everyone (except Jaina, who hates Orcs because of Garrosh) wants Sylvanas, because Sylvanas has pissed off so many power players that if she didn't get the Horde behind her and fighting. They might've just overall cut the Forsaken and let them rot thanks to their actions all these years.


Oh she's totally evil even before Teldrassil, but I think her motivations could be understood and sympathized with up to that point.

She's the leader of a faction that spent the first 4-5 years of the game under constant siege because a madman raised them from the dead against their will and a whole bunch of still living folks didn't give a gak that they weren't part of the Scourge anymore. At the time of of her invasion of Gilneas she has no reason whatsoever to think the Alliance will ever allow her to live in peace except through force, and her force dwindles over time since her population can't grow by normal means. As black as her ethics are, she prior to the start of BFA came off as an extreme pragmatist/well-intentioned extremist who did bad gak because all of her options lay between "do bad gak" and "just die." Par for the course for the franchise honestly. A lot of the series villains end up where they are because their choices suck or because they're horrifically flawed individuals (often times both).

Then at the start of BFA she murders a bunch of decent people who are making progress on reconciling the rift between the Foresaken and their still living families because heaven forbid she end up without a people to lead, and then she switches a semi-sensible plan to force a peace for genocide because someone used what is apparently her trigger word. At this point she can't be sold as extremely pragmatic or an extremist juggling rotten options. She's just an out and out monster.

   
 
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