Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys,

So a couple of friends and I have found that Plasma is so strong in 8th Edition. It is common for us to see Plasma Weapons being paired with Captains, Chapter Masters, or any other model which allows re-rolls To Hit (either all To Hits or just rolls of 1). With such shenanigans, my friend has managed to take out a Land Raider in one round of shooting (admittedly a majority of his 2,000 point list's shooting went into it, but still....). I also experimented with a list today whereby I used High Marshal Helbrecht to get re-rolls on a Deep-Striking Terminator Squad, a 5-Man Scout Sniper Squad and a Land Raider Crusader, all of which laid down major hurt predominantly because of re-rolls allowing more hits.

Has anyone else found that the Chapter Master + Bubbles of Heavy Fire (e.g. bubbles of Plasma hugging the Chapter Master) becoming the new meta of sorts? Is this the new Grav Cannon in the sense that it feels like it's an auto-take?

Cheers

Well... they are strong but if he had Lacannons and Melta i bet 1/2 the shooting would take out that same land raider.

Its on 1-2 damage, thats not very good honestly to deal with lots of vehicles, MC or heavy vehicles.

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys,

So a couple of friends and I have found that Plasma is so strong in 8th Edition. It is common for us to see Plasma Weapons being paired with Captains, Chapter Masters, or any other model which allows re-rolls To Hit (either all To Hits or just rolls of 1). With such shenanigans, my friend has managed to take out a Land Raider in one round of shooting (admittedly a majority of his 2,000 point list's shooting went into it, but still....). I also experimented with a list today whereby I used High Marshal Helbrecht to get re-rolls on a Deep-Striking Terminator Squad, a 5-Man Scout Sniper Squad and a Land Raider Crusader, all of which laid down major hurt predominantly because of re-rolls allowing more hits.

Has anyone else found that the Chapter Master + Bubbles of Heavy Fire (e.g. bubbles of Plasma hugging the Chapter Master) becoming the new meta of sorts? Is this the new Grav Cannon in the sense that it feels like it's an auto-take?

Cheers

Captains/Chaptermasters and Lieutnants are a core component of pretty much any SM list, and they're what makes Marines work. So yes, Captains are basically an auto-include.

For Guard plasma is an auto include if you're not going conscripts; especially on tanks, as we have access to the same gimmick but several times cheaper. Marines don't actually benefit from the multi-purpose value of plasma as unlike guard the models equipped with it cost as much if not more as the upgrade itself .

Plasma grants access to high volume, high value shooting. As such it's my go-to when the superheavies would be impolite

I have seen a rise in Aegis Defence Line based marine plasma gunlines with the Capt/Ancient/Lieutenant triumverate, but as a guard player, I outrange and outgun, outlast and (frequently) outnumber them.

 malamis wrote:
For Guard plasma is an auto include if you're not going conscripts; especially on tanks. Marines don't actually benefit from the multi-purpose value of plasma as unlike guard the models equipped with it cost as much if not more as the upgrade itself .

Plasma grants access to high volume, high value shooting. As such it's my go-to when the superheavies would be impolite

Absolutely! For guard plasmaguns/cannons are pretty awesome right now, it's why they increased the price on BF3+ plasmaguns (still worth it though). Plasmacannons are now pretty good on LR since they changed the Gets Hot to just 1 mortal wound on a 1.

nekooni wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys, ...

Captains/Chaptermasters and Lieutnants are a core component of pretty much any SM list, and they're what makes Marines work. So yes, Captains are basically an auto-include.

Well in 7th, my experience was less so. Chapter Masters, Captains, and HQ Choices overall were less common than they seem to be in 8th. Many more lists also seemed to be based around Psyker HQ's in 7th. What I mean to say is that the meta seems to be shifting because suddenly the Captains and Chapter Masters are significantly more useful because of the nature of re-rolls and thus can be exploited in certain ways. But I don't think they're what makes Marine Armies work, they just seem to give them a (relatively big) push compared to what they used to do in 7th if used correctly.

malamis wrote:Plasma grants access to high volume, high value shooting.

And the re-rolls... oh god the amount of Overcharged Plasma is real! haha

If you think plasma is good on normal marines, try it on Death Guard

Plasma is indeed good in 8th. Though, I will say that if most of a 2000pt army fires at a Land Raider, you should probably expect it to die regardless of what weapons are being used.

The thing is though, I consider rerolls to be the cherry on the cake, rather than the main reason why they're taken. Other reasons include:
- With 9" deep strike, plasma can get into optimal range from reserve but meltas can't.
- Plasma can fire at targets more than 12" away, meltas or flamers can't.
- Plasma shoots twice at 12", meaning an Overcharged plasmagun can potentially kill 2 two-wound models, whilst weapons like meltas can only ever kill one.
- With no chance of explosions and with Lascannons and such dealing d6 damage apiece, Meltas and the like really don't bring much to the table (yes, they're slightly better against heavier targets, but not enough to justify what you lose by taking them).

 malamis wrote:
For Guard plasma is an auto include if you're not going conscripts; especially on tanks, as we have access to the same gimmick but several times cheaper.

This statement puzzles me. I certainly wouldn't consider Plasma an auto-include on IG tanks.

I'm assuming that you're referring to Harker when you talk about us having the same gimmick as SMs but cheaper? Because the only other things that give reroll 1s to tanks are a Tank Commander and Yarrick - both of which are actually more expensive. Company Commanders are cheap, obviously, but they only work on Infantry - not tanks.

And Harker only works on Catachan tanks. This means that if you want to move your tanks, then those Overcharged plasma cannons will Overheat on a roll of 1 or 2 and only the 1 can be rerolled by Harker or such.

So I certainly agree that plasma is good on IG infantry, but (to my mid at least) it's lacklustre on most of our tanks. And I think you're stretching the truth a bit when you say that said tanks have access to the same gimmick but 'several times cheaper'.

 vipoid wrote:


I'm assuming that you're referring to Harker when you talk about us having the same gimmick as SMs but cheaper? Because the only other things that give reroll 1s to tanks are a Tank Commander and Yarrick - both of which are actually more expensive. Company Commanders are cheap, obviously, but they only work on Infantry - not tanks.

I'm referring to the Cadian doctrine; which is 'free' points wise, or as you point out, provided with Company/platoon commanders if mobility matters.

 malamis wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


I'm assuming that you're referring to Harker when you talk about us having the same gimmick as SMs but cheaper? Because the only other things that give reroll 1s to tanks are a Tank Commander and Yarrick - both of which are actually more expensive. Company Commanders are cheap, obviously, but they only work on Infantry - not tanks.

I'm referring to the Cadian doctrine; which is 'free' points wise, or as you point out, provided with Company/platoon commanders if mobility matters.

Ah, I see.

Do you think that doctrine is good for plasma though? Given that you have to stat still for it to work, it seems one more suited to long-range stuff like artillery and Lascannons.

I think so. Plasma is probably too cheap since it is good versus most things in the game.

Its only not that good against super cheap horde units (around 4~ points a wound) but once you move up to 8 points or so its usually at least as points efficient as regular small arms shooting.

It becomes incredibly efficient once you push to 12-20 (factoring in equipment) points a wound. Its probably single handedly driving bikes from the meta. A lot of "elite" units with 2 wounds become horribly vulnerable even with invuls.

I disagree that its not good against vehicles/monsters. Its a very reliable way to chip away wounds - especially if you have some way to buff/reroll 1s on the overcharge (although its not required - just accept the losses). If you can deep strike straight into rapid fire range its generally better point for point than a lascannon - the trade off is that its worse outside of rapid fire range. You also can't get lucky - sometimes you always roll 6s for lascannon damage. But at the same time you will occasionally roll 1s (and yes, you can command point - but you can only do that once per turn).

I have to agree that Plasma is poorly statted out compared to other weapons. I find the heavy plasma gun to be relative crap though (33% of the time it's doing 1 shot at mediocre range) for the cost.

It really should be a -2 save modifier at minimum as a change, but I find that unlikely. They'd have to do a sweeping change which would impact almost every book.

As much as people complaint of Auras, at last HQ's that arent psychers or juts have OP habilities or are meele beaststicks are usefull.

And plasma is just undercosted. It is usefull after a whole edition of grav-spam, but it is too usefull. Is the "generalistic" weapon, so it should pay for that privilege.

I think a better plasma would have been

Normal:
Reduce Strength to 6, -2 save modifier.

Overcharged:
-2 save modifier.

 Elbows wrote:
I think a better plasma would have been

Normal:
Reduce Strength to 6, -2 save modifier.

Overcharged:
-2 save modifier.

Eh? That would have been pretty awful, I think.

It's unrealistic that perhaps a small, relatively cheap special weapon shouldn't be as strong as a lascannon?

 Elbows wrote:
It's unrealistic that perhaps a small, relatively cheap special weapon shouldn't be as strong as a lascannon?

The current one, even when overcharged, isn't as strong as a Lascannon.

Plasma is all fun and games till you run into a -1 to hit army.

Plasmas are simply too good. Within 12" it is essentially a Damage 4 weapon. Plasmas, Primaris Psykers and Malefic lords are the primary reasons that bikers and W2 infantry like primaris marines, nobz and terminators are struggling.

I don't think the problem is plasma - the problem is dropping it 9" away from your opponent and guaranteeing that rapid fire volley. Then if they don't die you can do it again.

If you had to run them across the table (in a transport or otherwise) they wouldn't be half as good. But you don't.

Now sure you can try to bubble wrap out to try and prevent them being in 12" of something good but a lot of armies don't have a good bubble wrap unit. If you are shooting guardsmen, cultists or gaunts that's bad. Basic Ork boys too. Move on up however and it quickly moves to being okay to good. If you want to bubble wrap with something like marines or dire avengers then great - I am very happy to shoot them.

Its like Smite spam. There will be better and worse targets - so screening is a thing - but if the smite player is hitting something that is 10+ points per wound (after gear etc) its usually worth it even if they would have preferred to get all the wounds onto a vehicle or character.

Yeah. Plasma is good.

Tell me something new.

 Elbows wrote:
It's unrealistic that perhaps a small, relatively cheap special weapon shouldn't be as strong as a lascannon?

Its more than half the price of a Lascannon, with a favorable range of a quarter of a Lascannons range.

Comparison to Melta is interesting. Melta is actually quite good, stat-wise. But the capacity to kill 2 models with the plasma makes it a favorite.

The vehicle explosion rule should be changed to add +1 to the dice roll for each additional wound after its last that the killing blow inflicted. Then Meltas and Lascannons would have improved capacity for collateral damage, which would be both cool and potentially effective.

Of course, something would have to be done to prevent it from being ridiculous in the fight phase. Probably limit it to shooting attacks.

I love plasma myself, but I always have. I don't even own a single model with a grav weapon on it, and I own way too many models lol.

Having said that plasma doesn't bother me as a space marine player. It's actually a good reason to take normal marines instead of primus, or heavy elite. Yes it sucks for terms, but otherwise a squad of 10 Marines don't care if the plasma is overcharged nearly as much as a squad of primus Marines would. Still only killing 1 model a shot at best.

I guess what I mean is plasma is an equalizer in my eyes, it stops me from playing a pure elite force like all bikes, all terms, things like that. But that deep strike shoot plasma thing does suck. Maybe change deep strike rules so if a unit had just entered the field from a deepstrike rule it can only target the closest enemy to it? That way if they're targeting something expensive and elite like it's your own fault for not properly protecting your elite guys with a few normals?

Idk, in the end its not the end of the world to me.

 Elbows wrote:
It's unrealistic that perhaps a small, relatively cheap special weapon shouldn't be as strong as a lascannon?

Lascannons are still better in a number of regards - Higher Strength, more capacity for damage dealt against single targets, etc. But... it's hard to compare them properly because they're two weapons designed in this edition to do two different things.

pismakron wrote:Plasmas are simply too good. Within 12" it is essentially a Damage 4 weapon. Plasmas, Primaris Psykers and Malefic lords are the primary reasons that bikers and W2 infantry like primaris marines, nobz and terminators are struggling.

To be honest Terminators - especially if you're a Dark Angels player because Tactical Terminators can take at least one Storm Shield in the squad IIRC - can survive a lot of Plasma because of their Invulnerable Save. I mean, their Invulnerable Save helps them against a lot of other targets, but still. Not to mention that if you put a two-wound model/unit in cover, then - assuming that the enemies shooting at them don't Ignore Cover like Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors - they tend to still have a half-decent save against Plasma.

Tyel wrote:I don't think the problem is plasma - the problem is dropping it 9" away from your opponent and guaranteeing that rapid fire volley. Then if they don't die you can do it again.

If you had to run them across the table (in a transport or otherwise) they wouldn't be half as good. But you don't.

Now sure you can try to bubble wrap out to try and prevent them being in 12" of something good but a lot of armies don't have a good bubble wrap unit. If you are shooting guardsmen, cultists or gaunts that's bad. Basic Ork boys too. Move on up however and it quickly moves to being okay to good. If you want to bubble wrap with something like marines or dire avengers then great - I am very happy to shoot them.

Its like Smite spam. There will be better and worse targets - so screening is a thing - but if the smite player is hitting something that is 10+ points per wound (after gear etc) its usually worth it even if they would have preferred to get all the wounds onto a vehicle or character.

A spread out deployment can prevent Deep Striking units from getting behind you or flanking you, but of course means that you may not be able to put as much fire power into the Deep Strikers as you might like to in order to kill them. Conversely, a close deployment can mean that you unload enough fire power into these Deep Striking Plasmas thus denying them more than one Shooting Phase. These strategies of deployment can be maintained through appropriate movement of units, so I don't think the Deep Striking Plasma is as powerful as you seem to make it out to be (though it is still powerful).

RedCommander wrote:Yeah. Plasma is good.

Tell me something new.

Did you have a point? o.0

I'll take plasma all day every day, rule of cool.

But Salamanders really benefit from plasma. Chillin with the Gravis Cap, Lieutenant and Primaris Ancient, Just supercharge a little more and it pays for itself.

I'm gonna try the Redemptor Macro Plasma Incinerator with a Hellblaster squad and the cap/lt/ancient.

Flamers and melta are just too expensive. I wouldn't use as much plasma if it wasn't for 18'' rapid fire (DG) and it being so cheap. Why bother with a 12" weapon with one shot, that is even more expensive than my plasma gun?

And I say that as someone who only overcharges if the unit is prescienced.

I use plasma melta and flamers
Flamers hit the hordes
Tanks and monsters get hit by melta
Plasma deals with everything else.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:Flamers and melta are just too expensive. I wouldn't use as much plasma if it wasn't for 18'' rapid fire (DG) and it being so cheap. Why bother with a 12" weapon with one shot, that is even more expensive than my plasma gun?

And I say that as someone who only overcharges if the unit is prescienced.

Well it depends on what you're trying to do. Having Melta is generally better than Plasma against vehicles, the only possible exception to this being Plasma in Rapid Fire Range w/ at least re-rolling 1's. But you pay 75 - 100+ points to even re-roll 1's, assuming all else equal - what's wrong with spending those extra points on the Melta?

As for Flamers - I think Flamers are rather good if you have more than just a couple of them, but only against infantry-heavy lists (particularly hordes). So they're not too expensive, just not a good 'Jack of all Trades' pick.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:I use plasma melta and flamers
Flamers hit the hordes
Tanks and monsters get hit by melta
Plasma deals with everything else.

I agree and would use them the same way, but it is uncommon to need all three.

Plasma weapons really became the mainstay weapon of 8th edition, now that it's cheaper and less suicidal to take it can deal with it's intended targets more reliably