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See, and here I have been getting as many flamers as I can to put onto my Marines. Salamander squads. 5 men, 1 with plasma cannon or missile launcher, one srg with combi flamer. Srg helps protect against close combat (no one wants to run into auto hits if they can avoid it) and Plasma cannon pops holes in whatever I want at overcharge with salamander trait for protection. Works rather well. Only lost 2 cannons last game due to "faulty equipment" lol. Totally worth it though.

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys,

So a couple of friends and I have found that Plasma is so strong in 8th Edition. It is common for us to see Plasma Weapons being paired with Captains, Chapter Masters, or any other model which allows re-rolls To Hit (either all To Hits or just rolls of 1). With such shenanigans, my friend has managed to take out a Land Raider in one round of shooting (admittedly a majority of his 2,000 point list's shooting went into it, but still....). I also experimented with a list today whereby I used High Marshal Helbrecht to get re-rolls on a Deep-Striking Terminator Squad, a 5-Man Scout Sniper Squad and a Land Raider Crusader, all of which laid down major hurt predominantly because of re-rolls allowing more hits.

Has anyone else found that the Chapter Master + Bubbles of Heavy Fire (e.g. bubbles of Plasma hugging the Chapter Master) becoming the new meta of sorts? Is this the new Grav Cannon in the sense that it feels like it's an auto-take?

Cheers

It's a good jack of all trades weapon in most scenarios, it's kind of hard not to take it. People figured that out in about 5 seconds of cracking open the books. I know I've been spamming plasma since day one. Granted I spammed plasma ever since I started in 5th, but I've really been spamming it lately.

However, I think I get part of why GW made it so cheap for everyone. Given the weird way modifiers work in this game, it means that plasma is actually really risky to use even with rerolls in some scenarios. Chapter traits for -1 to hit, moving with heavy weapons, night fighting, special abilites, pyskers, etc. all make it where your plasma can kill you sometimes up to 50% of the time or more. As almost every codex has a way to force penalties to hit, I'm starting to see why GW didn't put such a premium on them. I'm actually starting to debate on taking some different weapons because of all the modifiers flying around these days. Plasma will still be my main weapon, but I'm starting to see a point in a couple of squads using melta at least.

Honestly you're noticing more that 8th ed is built around reroll auras, plasma is just a very hard to miss part of it. This is why Guilleman is so insane and why you see so many named characters, most give these rerolls. It's also why the Cadian and Catachan traits for IG are considered so powerful, they're natural rerolls, something most armies don't get without characters.

 RedCommander wrote:
Yeah. Plasma is good.

Tell me something new.

This

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
However, I think I get part of why GW made it so cheap for everyone. Given the weird way modifiers work in this game, it means that plasma is actually really risky to use even with rerolls in some scenarios. Chapter traits for -1 to hit, moving with heavy weapons, night fighting, special abilites, pyskers, etc. all make it where your plasma can kill you sometimes up to 50% of the time or more. As almost every codex has a way to force penalties to hit, I'm starting to see why GW didn't put such a premium on them. I'm actually starting to debate on taking some different weapons because of all the modifiers flying around these days. Plasma will still be my main weapon, but I'm starting to see a point in a couple of squads using melta at least.

I've found that Cover Modifiers to saves is definitely the biggest factor of all those. But funnily for me, plasma is my main weapon only in my Black Templars ( I've started an Iron Warriors army and a Crimson Fists army, so no surprises why I don't need Plasma in those armies ). Lascannons on a high perch as part of Devastator Squads tends to be a good start with or without ignoring cover. Missile Launchers have - in my experience - been a bit hit and miss since you really have to pick your targets and ammo type with them rather well for the ML's to be truly effective. Meltas are weapons I have very little experience with in 8th, but seem like they could be very effective if used correctly.

 IllumiNini wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys, ...

Captains/Chaptermasters and Lieutnants are a core component of pretty much any SM list, and they're what makes Marines work. So yes, Captains are basically an auto-include.

Well in 7th, my experience was less so. Chapter Masters, Captains, and HQ Choices overall were less common than they seem to be in 8th. Many more lists also seemed to be based around Psyker HQ's in 7th. What I mean to say is that the meta seems to be shifting because suddenly the Captains and Chapter Masters are significantly more useful because of the nature of re-rolls and thus can be exploited in certain ways. But I don't think they're what makes Marine Armies work, they just seem to give them a (relatively big) push compared to what they used to do in 7th if used correctly.

malamis wrote:Plasma grants access to high volume, high value shooting.

And the re-rolls... oh god the amount of Overcharged Plasma is real! haha

Yeah captains are much more useful in 8th edition, the nature of Space Marines Captains have changed.in 7th (6th, 5th and proably 3rd and 4th) the captain was simply your uber beat stick. you took it if you wanted a really awesome melee beat stick, and you took librarians if you just wanted a army buffer, GW I don't think was all that happy with that, and wanted the Captain to be the pre-eminant command unit in a Space Marine army. hence the area buff fields. The Captain is now what he should be, your lynchpin HQ, best dep[loyed where the fighting is moist important etc.

BrianDavion wrote:
Yeah captains are much more useful in 8th edition, the nature of Space Marines Captains have changed.in 7th (6th, 5th and proably 3rd and 4th) the captain was simply your uber beat stick. you took it if you wanted a really awesome melee beat stick, and you took librarians if you just wanted a army buffer, GW I don't think was all that happy with that, and wanted the Captain to be the pre-eminant command unit in a Space Marine army. hence the area buff fields. The Captain is now what he should be, your lynchpin HQ, best dep[loyed where the fighting is moist important etc.

Yeah - I used to run a generic Captain in a similar fashion, but more so that I could run two Power Fists in a Crusader Squad and a non-Unwieldy Power Weapon or Melee Relic. But you are right - they were glorified beat sticks w/ invulnerable saves haha. And - especially if that was indeed GW's thinking - the Captains and Chapter Masters now definitely have an incentive to be used in ways that - let's be honest - are more consistent with the lore.

On a related note, I am kinda annoyed that the generic Choas Lord in the CSM only allows the re-rolls of 1's rather than re-rolls of all misses. They are the heads of Chaos Warbands after all, so where are the re-rolls?

In the same place as the Captain's?

Plasma being Strength 7/8 is really the biggest "problem" with why it is so good. Make it Strength 4/8 and it may come a bit in line with its points. Blanket rerolls are REALLY good with Plasma, but usually coming at a cost of 70+, so it is not like it is free.

Problem with Plasma is that it efficiently threatens all targets. Damage 2 makes a squad threaten many vehicles. The strength and AP makes it threaten vulnerable infantry. The overcharge with 2 damage is really silly vs Death Guard and other models that get extra saves.

Melta and lascannons threaten one model apiece, and also have a higher variance in performance. 4 Lascannons can miss 3 times...

And then there's always the option to use the "safer" firing mode at nearly the same efficiency (especially vs infantry). It kills GEQ without endangering your models.

With how much people use it, it is probably an indication of it being under-costed. But really, it is just a great universal weapon that can deal with armor heavy lists just as well as infantry heavy.

I'm one of those seemingly rare players that still uses pistols on my 'zerks. 2 have PP plus the champ has one as well. This gives me 9 PP's in a battalion. All lords I have also use PP. It's been my favorite since 4th(when they were super good).
Now they help me with a better chance to blow up a tank with m 'zerks. I can shoot pistols then charge, and if I get stuck in combat with a vehicle I get more plasma shots.

 chimeara wrote:
I'm one of those seemingly rare players that still uses pistols on my 'zerks. 2 have PP plus the champ has one as well. This gives me 9 PP's in a battalion. All lords I have also use PP. It's been my favorite since 4th(when they were super good).
Now they help me with a better chance to blow up a tank with m 'zerks. I can shoot pistols then charge, and if I get stuck in combat with a vehicle I get more plasma shots.

Khorne army with guns? That's blasphemous, even by Chaos standards.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Plasma being Strength 7/8 is really the biggest "problem" with why it is so good. Make it Strength 4/8 and it may come a bit in line with its points. Blanket rerolls are REALLY good with Plasma, but usually coming at a cost of 70+, so it is not like it is free.

Problem with Plasma is that it efficiently threatens all targets. Damage 2 makes a squad threaten many vehicles. The strength and AP makes it threaten vulnerable infantry. The overcharge with 2 damage is really silly vs Death Guard and other models that get extra saves.

Melta and lascannons threaten one model apiece, and also have a higher variance in performance. 4 Lascannons can miss 3 times...

And then there's always the option to use the "safer" firing mode at nearly the same efficiency (especially vs infantry). It kills GEQ without endangering your models.

With how much people use it, it is probably an indication of it being under-costed. But really, it is just a great universal weapon that can deal with armor heavy lists just as well as infantry heavy.

You could probably make Plasma Strength 6 normally (similar to the Tau plasma) and Strength 7 when Overcharged (like before).

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
I'm one of those seemingly rare players that still uses pistols on my 'zerks. 2 have PP plus the champ has one as well. This gives me 9 PP's in a battalion. All lords I have also use PP. It's been my favorite since 4th(when they were super good).
Now they help me with a better chance to blow up a tank with m 'zerks. I can shoot pistols then charge, and if I get stuck in combat with a vehicle I get more plasma shots.

Khorne army with guns? That's blasphemous, even by Chaos standards.

Lol, back in 4th there was no real benefits to taking chainaxe and chainsword. Taking the pistol was essentially the same thing as taking the chainsword as far as extra attacks go.

Purifying Tempest wrote:Plasma being Strength 7/8 is really the biggest "problem" with why it is so good. Make it Strength 4/8 and it may come a bit in line with its points. Blanket rerolls are REALLY good with Plasma, but usually coming at a cost of 70+, so it is not like it is free.

Problem with Plasma is that it efficiently threatens all targets. Damage 2 makes a squad threaten many vehicles. The strength and AP makes it threaten vulnerable infantry. The overcharge with 2 damage is really silly vs Death Guard and other models that get extra saves.

Being Strength 4/8 is probably too much of an extreme difference. Being Strength 6/8 or 6/7 (as someone else suggested) is probably better. On the Damage "Issue" I'm fine with it being Damage 2, but the Overcharging Plasma having Damage D2 instead of Damage 2 may be better there. I would have suggested D3, but the potential damage of D3 would not have been leveled out by the random nature of a dice roll.

Purifying Tempest wrote:Melta and lascannons threaten one model apiece, and also have a higher variance in performance. 4 Lascannons can miss 3 times...

Depends on the situation. Devastator Squads have Signums and Armorium Cherubs which both it easier to hit. Over the course 5 Turns, Lascannons will usually hit enough times (especially when you use the Armorium Cherub and Signum) to make their cost worth it. You put them on a high perch and they're even better. Add in the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics on top of that and they become really quite good. Not to mention if you're footslogging the Devastators near the Chapter Master, they still have a 75% chance of successfully hitting after the -1 To Hit modifier.

Melta is more difficult than Lascannons because of the range, but not as bad as people seem to think when compared to Plasma. Plasma is simply better as a generic weapon while Melta is best used against vehicles. So again, it's not that Melta is bad, it's just that you can't use the two weapons in the same way thus making comparison more difficult.

Purifying Tempest wrote:And then there's always the option to use the "safer" firing mode at nearly the same efficiency (especially vs infantry). It kills GEQ without endangering your models.

To be honest, this is going to be the case regardless of the weapon's profile unless you nerf Plasma to way bellow what it should be. So to be honest, the problem there isn't the profile of Plasma, but how much plasma you can take in your is more the issue - an issue that is not fixable without severe restrictions on how you build your armies. So as far as I'm concerned, this is an issue not worth considering because nothing can be done about it.

Purifying Tempest wrote:With how much people use it, it is probably an indication of it being under-costed. But really, it is just a great universal weapon that can deal with armor heavy lists just as well as infantry heavy.

Well I don't think Grav-Cannons in 7th Edition were undercosted, but it was definitely an auto-take because of how good it was at doing everything. So far Grav-Cannons were better in 7th than Plasma now appears to be in 8th (especially with the way Save Modifiers work compared with 7th Edition's AP system). I say this because for Plasma's true potential to be unlocked 8th, you need the re-rolls which you need to spend at least 70 points on, and even then it's only in a relatively small radius. For Grav Cannon's in 7th, all you had to do was chuck them in a Rhino as part of a Tactical Squad.

chimeara wrote:I'm one of those seemingly rare players that still uses pistols on my 'zerks. 2 have PP plus the champ has one as well. This gives me 9 PP's in a battalion. All lords I have also use PP. It's been my favorite since 4th(when they were super good).
Now they help me with a better chance to blow up a tank with m 'zerks. I can shoot pistols then charge, and if I get stuck in combat with a vehicle I get more plasma shots.

Not to mention the Plasma Pistols synergise well with with with Chainaxes, especially since having dual Chainaxes does not give you an extra attack for dual wielding them.

Plasma is undercosted. Against most vehicles, overcharge turns wounding from a 4+ to a 3+ which is extremely powerful. Damage 2 helps seal the deal.

Changing it to S6 normal and S7 overcharged would be too much of a swing in the other direction.

Bump the points up by 25% for plasma weapons.

whatever you do please don't make the plasma's flat 2D a random dice roll. Half the reason I use it is because it does a flat amount of damage. Less dice rolling for shooting means a lot with how many guns I have to shoot and help speeds up the game a bit. I wish more weapons in this game had a flat damage profile, especially those in the D3 range, most of those could be just 2 D and it'd be fine.

Heck I use autocannons, a pretty terrible weapon for IG in most cases, purely because that flat 2 damage just makes it a lot less headache inducing.

I would imagine this is a small part of why you see it so much, having a dependable weapon that you always know what it will do is a lot more reliable than something that does 1d6 damage for example. The 1d6 weapon can be blatantly superior for the price and I think you would still see people trend toward the flat 2 damage weapon just because you can rely on it to not roll a 1 to damage a land raider or something. Yes, I know, "confirmation bias", "You don't always roll 1's for damage", and "statistically the 1d6 damage weapon will average higher in many cases" but you only need one shooting phase where every one of the 6 lascannons in your army fails to roll above 2 damage and you'll see what I mean.

BaconCatBug wrote:Plasma is undercosted. Against most vehicles, overcharge turns wounding from a 4+ to a 3+ which is extremely powerful. Damage 2 helps seal the deal.

Changing it to S6 normal and S7 overcharged would be too much of a swing in the other direction.

Bump the points up by 25% for plasma weapons.

TBH what it wounds on has never been the issue with Plasma. As I said before, it has more to do with the fact that it does a flat 2 Damage. That flat 2 Damage has enormous killing power in terms of targets reserved for things like Lascannons and Melta (bear in mind I still think Lascannons and Melta kill their intended targets better than Plasma can, but Plasma still seems to unnecessarily encroach).

As for S6/S7, I'd say the better way would be to have S6/S8. That way there's actually a disparity between the two profiles.

MrMoustaffa wrote:whatever you do please don't make the plasma's flat 2D a random dice roll. Half the reason I use it is because it does a flat amount of damage. Less dice rolling for shooting means a lot with how many guns I have to shoot and help speeds up the game a bit. I wish more weapons in this game had a flat damage profile, especially those in the D3 range, most of those could be just 2 D and it'd be fine.

Heck I use autocannons, a pretty terrible weapon for IG in most cases, purely because that flat 2 damage just makes it a lot less headache inducing.

I disagree as a general rule. This only become a problem when variability and more dice rolls happens with everything. If we assume that everything else is as it should be and the number of dice rolls in any given game is acceptable, then having Overcharged Plasma do D2 damage instead of a flat 2 isn't a bad thing. Adding more dice rolls in is only a problem if it isn't accounted for in the game as a whole (i.e. either being sure it's not an unnecessary addition of dice rolls or shaving off dice rolls elsewhere).

On a side note, I kinda like the idea of D2 damage because you're taking a risking with going Overcharged (by way of 'Gets Hot') but risks don't always pay off (i.e. you don't get that extra damage you were hoping for as well).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I would imagine this is a small part of why you see it so much, having a dependable weapon that you always know what it will do is a lot more reliable than something that does 1d6 damage for example. The 1d6 weapon can be blatantly superior for the price and I think you would still see people trend toward the flat 2 damage weapon just because you can rely on it to not roll a 1 to damage a land raider or something. Yes, I know, "confirmation bias", "You don't always roll 1's for damage", and "statistically the 1d6 damage weapon will average higher in many cases" but you only need one shooting phase where every one of the 6 lascannons in your army fails to roll above 2 damage and you'll see what I mean.

And by the same token, I've seen my fair share of Plasma Weapon wielders die because of Gets Hot in spite of re-rolls, while in other situations player's have made the choice to use Overcharged without re-rolls because the situation their Plasma is in demands it. So there's unreliability everywhere. And what you said makes me think that the flat 2 Damage is yet more reason for Plasma to be an Auto-Take, meaning D2 Damage as opposed to a flat 2 Damage might mitigate that a bit.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Plasma is undercosted. Against most vehicles, overcharge turns wounding from a 4+ to a 3+ which is extremely powerful. Damage 2 helps seal the deal.

Changing it to S6 normal and S7 overcharged would be too much of a swing in the other direction.

Bump the points up by 25% for plasma weapons.

Actually, only the Plasmagun is undercosted. The Plasma Pistol is fine, and the Plasma Cannon (And I use a ton of those playing Dark Angels) is very crappy.

 Galas wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Plasma is undercosted. Against most vehicles, overcharge turns wounding from a 4+ to a 3+ which is extremely powerful. Damage 2 helps seal the deal.

Changing it to S6 normal and S7 overcharged would be too much of a swing in the other direction.

Bump the points up by 25% for plasma weapons.

Actually, only the Plasmagun is undercosted. The Plasma Pistol is fine, and the Plasma Cannon (And I use a ton of those playing Dark Angels) is very crappy.

Yes, I find the plasma Cannon to be underwhelming for the cost. The d3 shots doesn't make up for the template removal. IMO it should be a flat 3 shots.

 chimeara wrote:
Yes, I find the plasma Cannon to be underwhelming for the cost. The d3 shots doesn't make up for the template removal. IMO it should be a flat 3 shots.

Yeah - the fact that the Plasma Cannon can do as little as one shot is definitely underwhelming, especially for a Heavy Weapon. Even (D3 + 1) would be better to guarantee a half decent minimum of 2.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Yes, I find the plasma Cannon to be underwhelming for the cost. The d3 shots doesn't make up for the template removal. IMO it should be a flat 3 shots.

Yeah - the fact that the Plasma Cannon can do as little as one shot is definitely underwhelming, especially for a Heavy Weapon. Even (D3 + 1) would be better to guarantee a half decent minimum of 2.

That would be fair I think.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here I think Illuminini, making the plasma gun a 1d2 damage weapon on overcharge would kill it overnight, it would basically be worthless at that point.

And yes, that was specifically why I mentioned all those fringe cases, because they are fringe cases, but those fringe cases still can lose you a game once in a while. No, I'm not losing every game because all my lascannons roll 1's and 2's for damage, but that one time it does happen, through no real fault of my own, stings pretty bad. Not everything in the game should have random damage values, many factions get a flat 2d weapon and I think it's a good thing as it gives players a solid choice they can count on instead of gambling for big hits with weapons like lascannons. Like I said, I still run autocannons for this very reason, even though mathematically you can easily claim it's one of the worst heavy weapons we have. It still does flat damage and I like knowing that I can count on it to do the same thing every time.

They got a decent points hike in the guard codex for vets, but it could probably go up a little more. I think absolute tops regular squads should be 10, and that's pushing it to account for the Cadian doctrine, and maybe 15 or so for vets. The main issue is many other weapons we have just aren't competitively priced for most of the roles we would take a plasma gun.

Take an infantry squad, I get one special weapon. What would you take?

1)A laughably short range flamer that's just a 1d6 bolter that doesn't even ignore cover?
2)A grenade lancher that is only 2 pts cheaper that statistically isn't much better than a lasgun for hordes and pretty terrible against vehicles because of 1d3 damage and terrible ap
3) a melta gun that while effective, only has a single shot and is shockingly expensive for what it does, and can vary wildly in damage unless you get into suicidally short range for an infantry squad
4)a sniper rifle that doesn't really mesh up with what the average infantry squad needs to do
5)a 24" rapid fire weapon with good AP, good strength, and at a very competitive price that can do everything from pop infantry hiding in cover, kill heavy infantry, fight tanks, fight monstrous creatures, hunt down enemy characters, and even just take out light infantry by completely ignoring their saves.

The plasma is just a good generalist weapon in many instances as it's a "safe" choice. No matter what I fight, the plasma will in some way be useful. The cost can go up with the stats it has, and unless other weapons got significantly cheaper or tweaked, it's just the best weapon. That may be "OP" but I wonder if it's more an issue with the weapons that compete with it as much as it is the plasma itself. Flamers for example really have little purpose in small numbers, grenade launchers are trash, snipers are better in high numbers, and meltas are very short ranged. Plasma can't help the fact that other weapons have little merit in many situations compared to it.

See I don't have much issue with the other weapons in things like command squads, vets, even Stormtroopers I make heavy use of hotshot volley guns. When you can tailor build a squad for a role even something like Grenade Launchers can be made to work with a little effort. But at the end of the day why would I bother with many of these choices when the plasma can do almost all these jobs just as well and excels at things like heavy infantry?

In my opinion the other special weapons should actually act like special weapons. For example the flamer should ignore cover and get additional 1d6 shots against large units. Grenade Launchers should get a barrage type ability, an extra 1d6 vs hordes for frag, or perhaps alternative grenade types. Meltas should be a bit cheaper, etc. Snipers are a good example. They do something no other weapon we have can do, shoot characters. They're also competitively priced. They're not a weapon you spam on everyone but it can absolutely have a place in a list on say some command squad in the back or a vet squad with a lascannon. Basically make it where the other weapons clearly become superior in key roles. Plasma will always be the go to generalist weapon for 8th edition due to how cover and modifiers work, but you can at least make it where other weapons clearly beat it in certain areas. Plasma would then become a generalist weapon you take on basic units for when you're not really sure what you're going to face, while support units and specialists kit themselves out for specific tasks. Bring the other weapons up to speed, and plasma will eventually fall back into place. It's that or radically change how plasma works, which I'm not sure is going to happen but hey, after the commissar change anything could happen.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
We're going to have to agree to disagree here I think Illuminini, making the plasma gun a 1d2 damage weapon on overcharge would kill it overnight, it would basically be worthless at that point.

I agree to agree to disagree. < Insert Leo DiCaprio from Inception saying 'Agree' >

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
And yes, that was specifically why I mentioned all those fringe cases, because they are fringe cases, but those fringe cases still can lose you a game once in a while. No, I'm not losing every game because all my lascannons roll 1's and 2's for damage, but that one time it does happen, through no real fault of my own, stings pretty bad. Not everything in the game should have random damage values, many factions get a flat 2d weapon and I think it's a good thing as it gives players a solid choice they can count on instead of gambling for big hits with weapons like lascannons. Like I said, I still run autocannons for this very reason, even though mathematically you can easily claim it's one of the worst heavy weapons we have. It still does flat damage and I like knowing that I can count on it to do the same thing every time.

Fair call. I'm not opposed to the variability which is why I'm partial to the idea, not to mention my aforementioned reasoning. Plus I don't mind the extra dice rolls (I must be the only user on DakkaDakka to hold this mindset haha). But for me it still comes down to the fact that either the non-Overcharged profile needs a minor nerf to create a disparity between the two profiles (and make it less of an auto-take jack-of-all-trades gun) and/or the Overcharged profile being Damage D2 as opposed to Damage 2 in order to make the undeniably powerful damage output Plasmas currently have less reliable in order to make it more fair.

And on a side note, I'm always bummed when I lose a game because of a lousy shooting phase or I failed some charges, but then I remember these two things:

(1) These are the sorts of things that can make the game interesting and hell - my opponent's ensuing turn might be just as bad dice-roll-wise.

(2) In the lore, the Crimson Fists had enough bad luck to blow up their own Fortress Monastery and still come out on top eventually, so my bad dice rolls are simply a setback I can come back from just like our favourite Ork-Haters

Plus let's be honest - If you have good or at least statistically likely dice roll results every game, a certain level of excitement is from the game.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
They got a decent points hike in the guard codex for vets, but it could probably go up a little more. I think absolute tops regular squads should be 10, and that's pushing it to account for the Cadian doctrine, and maybe 15 or so for vets. The main issue is many other weapons we have just aren't competitively priced for most of the roles we would take a plasma gun.

Take an infantry squad, I get one special weapon. What would you take?

1)A laughably short range flamer that's just a 1d6 bolter that doesn't even ignore cover?
2)A grenade lancher that is only 2 pts cheaper that statistically isn't much better than a lasgun for hordes and pretty terrible against vehicles because of 1d3 damage and terrible ap
3) a melta gun that while effective, only has a single shot and is shockingly expensive for what it does, and can vary wildly in damage unless you get into suicidally short range for an infantry squad
4)a sniper rifle that doesn't really mesh up with what the average infantry squad needs to do
5)a 24" rapid fire weapon with good AP, good strength, and at a very competitive price that can do everything from pop infantry hiding in cover, kill heavy infantry, fight tanks, fight monstrous creatures, hunt down enemy characters, and even just take out light infantry by completely ignoring their saves.

-- I agree: Flamers are underwhelming in 8th Edition, especially since they removed Templates.
-- TBH it doesn't sound terrible, just not as generically good as a Plasma Gun.
-- Melta Weapons are only good in certain situations. Dropping in as part of a Sterguard Squad? Good. Putting one in a Tactical Squad? Not so good. So Melta require much more effort to get right, but are still on a similar level to Plasma Guns.
-- A Sniper Rifle isn't something you just take one or two of in a Squad, though. I would say that Plasma Guns are roughly as good at what they do as Sniper Rifles are at what they do.

Plasma Guns are generally the best option. Flamers or Grenade Launchers may be good options depending on how you've built your list, but not quite as generically good as Plasma Guns. And Sniper Rifles are only good if you use them a particular way (for example - if a Tactical Squad could take a single Sniper Rifle, it wouldn't be worth taking, but a Sniper Rifle on each Scout in a Scout Squad is most certainly worth it), so as a generic weapon, Plasma is better.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
In my opinion the other special weapons should actually act like special weapons.

I agree and disagree. As we've both now said, Flamers are underwhelming and need something extra to be Special. We could go on forever about the what, how and why, but the point is that not all Special Weapons are good (especially not at generically good as Plasma) and thus not all of these Special Weapons are truly special.

"Which weapon works at full capacity from Reserves, and is dangerous against tanks while remaining usable versus everything else? Hmmmmm..."

Plasma is to 8th what Grav was to 7th, the "delete most everything" option, only while Grav relied on Bolter support for unarmored targets, Plasma has no such issue.

Indeed. I've had Baneblades wholesale deleted by deep-striking Plasma - I think it was 6 combi-plasmas on Deep Striking Chaos Terminators next to a Lord (admittedly with Combi-Melta).

The part that really hurt was they used Endless Cacophony and VOTLW (total 3 CP I think) to make the Baneblade dead.

MagicJuggler wrote:"Which weapon works at full capacity from Reserves, and is dangerous against tanks while remaining usable versus everything else? Hmmmmm..."

Plasma is to 8th what Grav was to 7th, the "delete most everything" option, only while Grav relied on Bolter support for unarmored targets, Plasma has no such issue.

Well you've summed up my entire initial point of this thread pretty well haha.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Indeed. I've had Baneblades wholesale deleted by deep-striking Plasma - I think it was 6 combi-plasmas on Deep Striking Chaos Terminators next to a Lord (admittedly with Combi-Melta).

The part that really hurt was they used Endless Cacophony and VOTLW (total 3 CP I think) to make the Baneblade dead.

Well apart from the investment of Command Points, a good way to think about this that a friend told me is three fold:

(1) How many points was required to do that? Did the Chaos Terminators cost a similar amount to the Baneblade?

-- -- Because if they spent a similar amount points-wise, then not only did the Terminators pay for the points but it also means that it wasn't entirely cheese for the Terminators to be able to do that.

(2) How much of their army's shooting does that represent?

-- -- Because the more shooting that Baneblade absorbed as a portion of the whole, it at least partially paid for itself points-wise while leaving you with units you can answer the destruction of the Baneblade with.

(3) Did you design your list so that you did indeed have other decent sources of damage?

-- -- Because, in this case, if the Baneblade was your only real source of damage, then your list was not very efficient anf you painted a large target on your Baneblade before Turn 1 even began.

Melta/Las really cannot compete against plasma unless it is twin linked.

Flamers though, I see waaaay too many people say Plasma > flamers.....hoard armies are a thing you know.

 IllumiNini wrote:

MagicJuggler wrote:"Which weapon works at full capacity from Reserves, and is dangerous against tanks while remaining usable versus everything else? Hmmmmm..."

Plasma is to 8th what Grav was to 7th, the "delete most everything" option, only while Grav relied on Bolter support for unarmored targets, Plasma has no such issue.

Well you've summed up my entire initial point of this thread pretty well haha.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Indeed. I've had Baneblades wholesale deleted by deep-striking Plasma - I think it was 6 combi-plasmas on Deep Striking Chaos Terminators next to a Lord (admittedly with Combi-Melta).

The part that really hurt was they used Endless Cacophony and VOTLW (total 3 CP I think) to make the Baneblade dead.

Well apart from the investment of Command Points, a good way to think about this that a friend told me is three fold:

(1) How many points was required to do that? Did the Chaos Terminators cost a similar amount to the Baneblade?

-- -- Because if they spent a similar amount points-wise, then not only did the Terminators pay for the points but it also means that it wasn't entirely cheese for the Terminators to be able to do that.

(2) How much of their army's shooting does that represent?

-- -- Because the more shooting that Baneblade absorbed as a portion of the whole, it at least partially paid for itself points-wise while leaving you with units you can answer the destruction of the Baneblade with.

(3) Did you design your list so that you did indeed have other decent sources of damage?

-- -- Because, in this case, if the Baneblade was your only real source of damage, then your list was not very efficient anf you painted a large target on your Baneblade before Turn 1 even began.

I don't know if you know me very well, but I am a fluff player and run a Superheavy Tank Company routinely, so the Baneblade alone was not very important.

I actually won the game; just using it as an anecdote of how good Plasma is.

1) I am pretty sure with the Lord included, they did cost a fair amount - the Baneblade came out to 531, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn they came out the same. What's cheesy is not that 500 points killed 500 points; rather, it's that 500 points not equipped to hunt tanks killed 500 points of pure tank. It'd be like if 500 points of Flamers killed a Land Raider - that's just silly. Plasma is too good against tanks, though it is only designed to be a heavy infantry killer.

2) Yes, this wasn't a complaint about the Baneblade or the Terminators; I'm fine with how it went. It's just an anecdote in support of the idea that Plasma is overcapable compared to other weapon options.

3) Yes, I had 2 other superheavy tanks

 sfshilo wrote:
Melta/Las really cannot compete against plasma unless it is twin linked.

Flamers though, I see waaaay too many people say Plasma > flamers.....hoard armies are a thing you know.

And flamers help against hordes how exactly?

You're getting on average lets say 4 shots. So 2 bolters worth. Note that you then need to wound, which means you're really only wounding say 2/3rds of those shots. Then the guardsmen are going to ignore a 1/3 of those wounds because flak armor gets its save now. Flamers are laughable antihorde weapons. The sole possible exception being Catachans, who needed an order that lets you reroll the number of shots and ignore cover in order to give them a chance at being a viable anti horde weapon. In almost any other situation you're just going to want more lasguns, heck even bolters are going to get more work done over time and don't have a suicidally short range to be used. If I remember right someone did the math and the plasma is actually more effective vs hordes than the flamer is. Flamers are that bad. Heavy flamers are a bit better but you'll notice most guard players actually use them to fight things like space marines, and not as some magical anti guardsman weapon.

It's 8th edition now, flamers just don't work how they used to. If we were talking 7th or something absolutely, bring flamers all day, they'll work great against hordes, but the days of a single flamer being able to hit all 10 models in a squad, ignore their armor, and ignore their cover are gone. Now they're a glorified bolter that never misses with a 1/3rd of the range.

It should be S6/S7 normal/overcharged, if only for fluff reasons. Eldar and their Tau pawns have perfected Plasma technology... and it's S6 for them. So in the past few years, IoM perfected Plasma tech, and then went way beyond even DAoT tech and then past CWE levels? Having non-Overcharged be S6 preserves the fluff of Eldar and Tau relative tech levels, while showing the IoM advancing.

Also, Gets Hot should be on unmodified 1s. Shouldn't be more dangerous to shoot an Alaitoc Ranger or Alpha Legionaire. And a Signum shouldn't make it autopass. If they wanted to make it super serious, make it apply before rerolls, but that would be weird.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't know if you know me very well, but I am a fluff player and run a Superheavy Tank Company routinely, so the Baneblade alone was not very important.

Can't say that I know you at all haha, but it's nice to see another fluff player.

Unit1126PLL wrote:1) I am pretty sure with the Lord included, they did cost a fair amount - the Baneblade came out to 531, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn they came out the same. What's cheesy is not that 500 points killed 500 points; rather, it's that 500 points not equipped to hunt tanks killed 500 points of pure tank. It'd be like if 500 points of Flamers killed a Land Raider - that's just silly. Plasma is too good against tanks, though it is only designed to be a heavy infantry killer.

To be honest I think that Plasma being a weapon that is not a weapon you can use to hunt tanks is a bit of a misconception. Especially when you read the fluff about Plasma Weapons as well as look at it from a real-world perspective, the idea that Plasma Weapons can't be tank-hunting weapons is a bit silly. The problem is that the guns specifically designed to be tank hunters like Melta should be better than they are relative to Plasma.

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) Yes, this wasn't a complaint about the Baneblade or the Terminators; I'm fine with how it went. It's just an anecdote in support of the idea that Plasma is overcapable compared to other weapon options.

I agree, which is why I think that D2 Damage is something that is worth considering for the Overcharged Profile - it reduces the damage reliability thus making it at least slightly less powerful.

Unit1126PLL wrote:3) Yes, I had 2 other superheavy tanks

Always good! Get payback! haha

sfshilo wrote:Melta/Las really cannot compete against plasma unless it is twin linked.

Arguable. Very arguable. I'm curious though: How did you come to this conclusion? Because I know Plasma is very good (I mean, that is the core point of this thread), but I don't think it's so good that Melta/Las need Twin-Linked in order to be competitive.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Flamers though, I see waaaay too many people say Plasma > flamers.....hoard armies are a thing you know.

People are saying that because - as a general rule - Plasma is better than Flamers. When trying to make a generically good list, Plasma is much better than Flamers. That's not to say that Flamers are bad and/or useless, but they're less of a jack-of-all-trades when compared to Plasma.

Bharring wrote:It should be S6/S7 normal/overcharged, if only for fluff reasons. Eldar and their Tau pawns have perfected Plasma technology... and it's S6 for them. So in the past few years, IoM perfected Plasma tech, and then went way beyond even DAoT tech and then past CWE levels? Having non-Overcharged be S6 preserves the fluff of Eldar and Tau relative tech levels, while showing the IoM advancing.

Also, Gets Hot should be on unmodified 1s. Shouldn't be more dangerous to shoot an Alaitoc Ranger or Alpha Legionaire. And a Signum shouldn't make it autopass. If they wanted to make it super serious, make it apply before rerolls, but that would be weird.

TBH having Plasma 'Gets Hot' be unaffected by re-rolls (i.e. you can't re-roll ones) makes sense. I mean, this could be argued both ways in terms of whether or not to allow re-rolls of 1's on Overcharged Plasma, but think about it: They're not un-jamming a rifle, the gun blew up in their face, which means that they should really have an opportunity to hit after that.