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Being unable to reroll plasma shots would make it worthless on all but the cheapest models, though. No one is going to risk a 1/6 chance of their 32 point plague marine dying.

I will say I fully agree that GW needs to introduce the "natural" roll of '1', etc. That would solve a tremendous amount of the plasma silliness with regards to rules (oh no, it's night outside and you're flying so your plasma is...more likely to explode, etc.)


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 Arachnofiend wrote:
Being unable to reroll plasma shots would make it worthless on all but the cheapest models, though. No one is going to risk a 1/6 chance of their 32 point plague marine dying.

That is entirely the point of overcharging. You shouldn't be freely doling out Strength 8 shots with zero risk, etc. The guns way too cheap for that. So you run it normal all game until something is on the line which is worth the risk of losing that marine.

In theory yeah, my problem is that the 22 point tempestus scion is significantly less likely to care. It'd just be another thing that vastly favors cheap units.

Elbows wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Being unable to reroll plasma shots would make it worthless on all but the cheapest models, though. No one is going to risk a 1/6 chance of their 32 point plague marine dying.

That is entirely the point of overcharging. You shouldn't be freely doling out Strength 8 shots with zero risk, etc. The guns way too cheap for that. So you run it normal all game until something is on the line which is worth the risk of losing that marine.

This! Arachnofiend - One of the problems with Plasma is the ability to make Overcharging so safe for Plasma. Yes you pay points for it in the form of a HQ Choice or something along those lines, but in those situations the other unit/model would pay for itself in re-rolls alone not to mention what the unit/model can do itself, not to mention that Overcharging should not be safe for Plasma. Overcharging should always have a reasonably high risk, otherwise the Overcharged Profile might as well be the only Profile for Plasma.

 Elbows wrote:
I will say I fully agree that GW needs to introduce the "natural" roll of '1', etc. That would solve a tremendous amount of the plasma silliness with regards to rules (oh no, it's night outside and you're flying so your plasma is...more likely to explode, etc.)

Oh no, I'm having a harder time seeing/hitting my target, it's moving so fast - I need to fire more shots now, and wait, what's that? My plasma gun is overheating easier because I'm using it more?

Only if overcharging were changed to a mortal wound on a failed toughness test.

Overcharging really shouldn't be the norm for firing plasma weaponry. If it were, they could just reduce the strength values to 6 and 7.

To take away S8 plasma, you'd have to make melta not suck.

I like the changes to plasma. While Meltas are less common, in 5th (my last edition) EVERYTHING had Meltas that could carry it. Min-Maxing units just for meltas was common, if you could pack a multimelta on a vehicle, it was getting it. Plasma was rare unless it was on a unit with FnP, and even then, it was still rare because killing vehicles > killing MC's or elite chars.

I think the changes were good. Oh, and the changes to combi weapons from 5th to now... you mean I can shoot more than once????

If given the option, is a combi-plasma strictly better than a normal plasma gun to take? On sometihng like a Biker or Termie, per say.

 vaklor4 wrote:
If given the option, is a combi-plasma strictly better than a normal plasma gun to take? On sometihng like a Biker or Termie, per say.

Eh, besides Overwatch, I don't remember the last time I have used both profiles of a Combi-Plasma in the shooting phase. It is way more important to me that the Plasma shots hit, versus maybe getting an additional Bolter hit that I essentially just pretend the Bolter side doesn't exist. If I could take normal Plasma Guns on all of my Tac Squad Sergeants to save even just a few more points, I would do it all day every day.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
In theory yeah, my problem is that the 22 point tempestus scion is significantly less likely to care. It'd just be another thing that vastly favors cheap units.

to say nothing of the 11pt guardsman with a plasma gun in a regular infantry squad.

Then again IG has always been notorious for not caring about if our guys die to plasma, so in reality not much would change there. I spammed lots of plasma in 5th, 6th, and 7th, and lost guys to it all the time but felt that taking it was always worth the risk. Even if a 1 was just straight up "no saves, you're dead" that's really only 33% worse than what I was dealing with in previous editions since IG armor saves are so terrible.

Arachnofiend wrote:In theory yeah, my problem is that the 22 point tempestus scion is significantly less likely to care. It'd just be another thing that vastly favors cheap units.

From my understanding, the cheaper armies such as Imperial Guard have access to more Plasma Guns for a less points compare to an MEQ army for example. And if you are going to get petty about a model dying to Overcharged Plasma, then that indicates to me a few things (and feel free to correct me on these things, they're just what seem to me to be buried beneath what you've said so far):

-- You think that Overcharged Plasma should be without risk (or at least minimal risk), which is silly. The choice to risk Overcharging Plasma should not be dependent model's cost. If it is, then I think there's something fundamentally wrong with how you go about equipping Plasma in your lists.

Being unable to reroll plasma shots would make it worthless on all but the cheapest models, though. No one is going to risk a 1/6 chance of their 32 point plague marine dying.

-- The above quote from you is also false. If there was a reward worth trying for like taking the last two wounds off your opponent's Land Raider or Warlord, then you can bet your asst someone will take the 1/6 chance of their 32 Plague Marine dying in order to do that. If the Plague Marine was just trying to thin out a 30-strong unit of Ork Boyz, then of course there's no point in Overcharging and risking death.

-- I also thoroughly disagree with the idea that it's completely worthless without re-rolls. Take a Space Marine with a Plasma Gun and no re-rolls: You have a 16.67% chance of dying, 16.67% chance of the shot doing nothing, and a 66.67% chance of the gun hitting. 16.67% Chance of Dying vs 66.67% Chance of Hitting? I'd hardly call that useless. Risky? Yes, but definitely not useless.

-- Finally, if you require re-rolls in order to use Overcharged Plasma, then you either need to use less Plasma or realise two things: Overcharging Plasma should be risky - It's why the Get's Hot rule is there; and Overcharging Plasma can be useful regardless of any given model's points cost.

Martel732 wrote:To take away S8 plasma, you'd have to make melta not suck.

Melta doesn't suck. It's just harder to use and their area of expertise has been encroached on by re-rolling Plasma.

vaklor4 wrote:If given the option, is a combi-plasma strictly better than a normal plasma gun to take? On sometihng like a Biker or Termie, per say.

TBH Plasma Guns are better because they're cheaper. As NH GunsmithMade essentially said, the Bolter Profile is not very useful in a Combi-Plasma. Combine this with the standard Plasma Gun profile (which is still stronger than the Bolter profile) doesn't have the Gets Hot rule and you might as well just have a Plasma Gun.

fe40k wrote:
Oh no, I'm having a harder time seeing/hitting my target, it's moving so fast - I need to fire more shots now, and wait, what's that? My plasma gun is overheating easier because I'm using it more?

Except you are not shooting it more. You are just hitting less often.

“I’m shooting it more!” is a silly use of imagination to justify questionable abstractions in the rules and this era of re-roll order of operations. I use enough imagination pushing painted plastic men around a table, I don’t need to use it as an excuse for GWs stupidity.

If you were shooting it more, you’d get more shots.

Plasma is used a lot as it's versatile and efficient for points.

Question is, would it still be popular if the entire overcharge stat line was removed?

how many of you have ever had plasma in your army and never overcharged it for the entire duration of the game?

 vipoid wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I think a better plasma would have been

Normal:
Reduce Strength to 6, -2 save modifier.

Overcharged:
-2 save modifier.

Eh? That would have been pretty awful, I think.

That normal profile is only one point of AP worse than the Tau Plasma rifle and we don't have an overcharged statline to fall back on.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Question is, would it still be popular if the entire overcharge stat line was removed?

how many of you have ever had plasma in your army and never overcharged it for the entire duration of the game?

I do. I only use overcharge when the unit has been prescienced. And since DG can't do that anymore, I don't overcharge. Also, most infantry units have 1wound anyway and the ap doesn't improve, I don't need to overcharge.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Question is, would it still be popular if the entire overcharge stat line was removed?

how many of you have ever had plasma in your army and never overcharged it for the entire duration of the game?

So far I've only done it once out of 6 games.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Question is, would it still be popular if the entire overcharge stat line was removed?

how many of you have ever had plasma in your army and never overcharged it for the entire duration of the game?

I've only overcharged 3 times out of 14 or so games I've played in 8th so far.

I like to think it's not how much you overcharge, more that you can/have option.

The game I overloaded the most was against primaris, because it's dumb not to.

How I would fix plasma: A short story.

Normal firing:
Gets Hot. On a roll of a 1 to hit, this model suffers a wound. Armor saves may be made against this wound.

There. Reintroduces the sense of risk into firing it either way, and it inheriently scales the sense of risk appropriately in such a way that cheaper plasma delivery platforms (guardsmen / scions) are penalized in an appropriately greater means compared to elite/expensive options (space marines, terminators, vehicles), and while it adds an extra step, that step is not so cumbersome as to meaningfully drag the game down. Also makes other weapons somewhat more appealing without completely rendering plasma useless. It'll never happen.

 daedalus wrote:
How I would fix plasma: A short story.

Normal firing:
Gets Hot. On a roll of a 1 to hit, this model suffers a wound. Armor saves may be made against this wound.

There. Reintroduces the sense of risk into firing it either way, and it inheriently scales the sense of risk appropriately in such a way that cheaper plasma delivery platforms (guardsmen / scions) are penalized in an appropriately greater means compared to elite/expensive options (space marines, terminators, vehicles), and while it adds an extra step, that step is not so cumbersome as to meaningfully drag the game down. Also makes other weapons somewhat more appealing without completely rendering plasma useless. It'll never happen.

Reading this thread made me go back and read the entry in the AM codex - it's really weird that the weapon doesn't do this normally anymore. That was plasma's thing - a lot of power, at the risk of killing the user.

What on earth were they thinking?

M.

I think the biggest reason you see players overcharging is because of the Strength difference is crucial. Going for S7 to S8 means wounding most infantry goes from 3+ to 2+ and many vehicle go from 4+ to 3+.
The fact that reroll 1 Auras are everywhere helps too.

If you took it down to 6/7, or made the overcharge do a single moral wound rather than D2, it might not be so meta dominating.

-

Infantryman wrote:Reading this thread made me go back and read the entry in the AM codex - it's really weird that the weapon doesn't do this normally anymore. That was plasma's thing - a lot of power, at the risk of killing the user.

What on earth were they thinking?

I actually kinda like the idea that Plasma has a "Reliable Mode". For starters, it makes Plasma Pistols worth taking, especially since most models you take it on are One-Wound Models. I like that they now have a Risk-for-Reward system as well with it, but I don't think they got it quite right, especially since a vast majority of the risk can be mitigated by re-rolls.

Galef wrote:I think the biggest reason you see players overcharging is because of the Strength difference is crucial. Going for S7 to S8 means wounding most infantry goes from 3+ to 2+ and many vehicle go from 4+ to 3+.

The fact that reroll 1 Auras are everywhere helps too.

I agree - crossing that threshold is important, but mainly because there's a lot of T4 Infantry and T7/T8 Vehicles.

 IllumiNini wrote:
I actually kinda like the idea that Plasma has a "Reliable Mode". For starters, it makes Plasma Pistols worth taking, especially since most models you take it on are One-Wound Models. I like that they now have a Risk-for-Reward system as well with it, but I don't think they got it quite right, especially since a vast majority of the risk can be mitigated by re-rolls.

I do too - for decades the fluff has stated that plasma weapons were from a different age of technology, and the ability to manufacture them has mostly been lost. Such weapons are incredibly powerful (like their cousin, the meltagun), but with a longer range. I'm assuming that if they all exploded as often as they used to do with the old "get's hot" rule... then how the heck did so many survive to the present timeline? The idea that they can be used as a normal gun (assuming the chap using it has the appropriate training) in a "safe mode" gels well with this, because obviously you'd be giving it to the right warrior to use it. Of course, he/she also knows how to overcharge the weapon, putting additional strain on the cooling system so as to inflict more damage, but at risk of the gun going up in a supernova of plasma in their hands.

Similar to the old assault cannon rules - up to 3 sustained fire dice (iirc), but if you rolled three "jam" results, the assault cannon exploded and killed the user (or tore the arm off the dreadnought). Increased reward (slaughtering more and more enemies) comes at a trade off - as the weapon runs hotter, there's that chance that it will all end in tears.

Maybe the originals didn't explode, but now age has caught up with them?

Either way, if they were a truly lost technology you'd think the MA couldn't take them in squads, yeah?

M.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Question is, would it still be popular if the entire overcharge stat line was removed?

how many of you have ever had plasma in your army and never overcharged it for the entire duration of the game?

I overcharge mine 99% of the time thanks to the meta I play in. It's always space marines or equivalent T4 or a vehicle at T7/8 where the overcharge bumps it up a level.

If I couldn't overcharge it I would still make heavy use of the weapon, it's still a good value for guard at the points we pay, but it would absolutely put emphasis back onto taking melta and make that our premier anti armor/monster weapon.

I like the overcharge statline, but it's probably the biggest issue with balance for sure. It just makes it so incredibly helpful for a guard player with access to orders or who just doesn't care if his guys die in the process.


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 Raichase wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
I actually kinda like the idea that Plasma has a "Reliable Mode". For starters, it makes Plasma Pistols worth taking, especially since most models you take it on are One-Wound Models. I like that they now have a Risk-for-Reward system as well with it, but I don't think they got it quite right, especially since a vast majority of the risk can be mitigated by re-rolls.

I do too - for decades the fluff has stated that plasma weapons were from a different age of technology, and the ability to manufacture them has mostly been lost. Such weapons are incredibly powerful (like their cousin, the meltagun), but with a longer range. I'm assuming that if they all exploded as often as they used to do with the old "get's hot" rule... then how the heck did so many survive to the present timeline? The idea that they can be used as a normal gun (assuming the chap using it has the appropriate training) in a "safe mode" gels well with this, because obviously you'd be giving it to the right warrior to use it. Of course, he/she also knows how to overcharge the weapon, putting additional strain on the cooling system so as to inflict more damage, but at risk of the gun going up in a supernova of plasma in their hands.

Similar to the old assault cannon rules - up to 3 sustained fire dice (iirc), but if you rolled three "jam" results, the assault cannon exploded and killed the user (or tore the arm off the dreadnought). Increased reward (slaughtering more and more enemies) comes at a trade off - as the weapon runs hotter, there's that chance that it will all end in tears.

Apparently the guns don't actually explode, the "Gets hot" we're used to is just the venting procedure for when it's dangerously overloaded. If it didn't have that venting system it would go critical and cause even more damage. Can't remember where I read that though.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Apparently the guns don't actually explode, the "Gets hot" we're used to is just the venting procedure for when it's dangerously overloaded. If it didn't have that venting system it would go critical and cause even more damage. Can't remember where I read that though.

Well, that explains how so many have survived into the present day when their bearers have not! I actually painted the gloves of my one guardsman with plasma gun up as oven mitts about ten years ago. Every game the joker would managed to overheat and kill himself, typically without denting anything on the opposite side of the table...