Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just wondering what people who don't play nids think of the new tyranid book.
I know most nid players are pretty happy with it but I've not seen the opinion of many non-players.

Fairly happy in general though again there are some big opportunities that were missed. RIP shrikes

Possitives: they seem to have tried to make everything work, and from what i have seen so far that is working, good job, each hive fleet is unique and the strats are cool.

Cons: IB was changed to be pretty much pointless, Synapse should be - to wounds taken rather than pure ignore morale, thats too good on big units in this Ed.

The main difference you can actually shoot Synapse creatures. Ya know, an actual counter exists unlike the faux counters proposed against Commisars.

I don't play them myself but from what I have read they seem to be in a place where they can hold their own against other codices. Probably bet quite hot against anyone stuck with an Index...looking at you DE!

Keep in mind the codex is not out yet.'

The codex seems great. All units seems playable now. Some are a bit weak on paper, termagaunts for instance, but termagaunts can be saved by army wide rules, stragems and command points. Kraken with kaustic blood stratagems for termagaunts would be great.

A lot of our units are vs infantery spesificly. Taking only these will be bad. But there are now many different good units vs armour.

The hive fleets are great, all 7.

Iconic units are now iconic again. Carnifex, hive tyrant, genestealers. It is all good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main difference you can actually shoot Synapse creatures. Ya know, an actual counter exists unlike the faux counters proposed against Commisars.

You can't shoot Neurothropes or Primes. Both are low enough Wound counts to be shielded by friendly Infantry since neither are Monsters either.

Remind me again how many units in the Guard book have Summary Execution? Three, one of which is a named character(Yarrick).
Remind me again how many of them benefit from Regimental rules? Zero.

But please. Let's keep pretending that you can't maneuver or use sniper weapons. People just don't want to.

I'm half thinking "Deep Striking Devilgaunts = OP" is coming, which should be fun.

Otherwise I committed to a Tyranid collection back in June/July, and it looks like the codex will be fun to use.

 Kanluwen wrote:

But please. Let's keep pretending that you can't maneuver or use sniper weapons. People just don't want to.

Or keep pretending commissars are worth taking after the FAQ.

I'm happy with everything other than what appears to be even more powerful shooting...something I hate to see Tyranid get. I'd much rather they were unstoppable melee monsters without such extreme shooting available.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm half thinking "Deep Striking Devilgaunts = OP" is coming, which should be fun.

Otherwise I committed to a Tyranid collection back in June/July, and it looks like the codex will be fun to use.

They always were. I used to play them back when spore pods first got introduced. Fun times were had.

I made this face.


We have some new players in the group since 8th releases. I can't wait.

 Elbows wrote:
I'm happy with everything other than what appears to be even more powerful shooting...something I hate to see Tyranid get. I'd much rather they were unstoppable melee monsters without such extreme shooting available.

I don't know if you have run the numbers on the mathhammer on most tyranids. But none of them can duke it out vs a dreadnought with a powerfirst. So when they design the codex to make us good at shooting, we are not running our S6 trygon into your S14 dreadnoughts.

Everything I've seen sounds really powerful and characterful, which is nice. Doesn't seem like it'll be as out to lunch as the IG book was, which is nicer.

Only thing I worry about is the capacity to mix hive fleets leading to some really degenerate combinations. I have a good feeling that the book will bend Eldar over and ruin them without much of a game to be played, for example. In general, the Tyranid ability to completely neuter anyone else's psychic phase for an insignificant cost is a poor way to handle smite spam, and hurts more synergistic powers and the armies that rely on them far more. At a competitive level, I have a genuine concern that Tyranids will hard counter Craftworld Eldar out of competition (because we need more Ynnari, obviously).

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main difference you can actually shoot Synapse creatures. Ya know, an actual counter exists unlike the faux counters proposed against Commisars.

You can't shoot Neurothropes or Primes. Both are low enough Wound counts to be shielded by friendly Infantry since neither are Monsters either.

Remind me again how many units in the Guard book have Summary Execution? Three, one of which is a named character(Yarrick).
Remind me again how many of them benefit from Regimental rules? Zero.

But please. Let's keep pretending that you can't maneuver or use sniper weapons. People just don't want to.

You mean all the sniper squads you need 150+ points of to kill a singular 30 point model? As well as most armies not having access to snipers in the first place? As well as a single model not exactly being hard to hide out of LOS either on top of those issues?

I mean yeah if you wanna pretend it's super easy go ahead.

That said I was unaware Neurothropes were a synapse creature.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main difference you can actually shoot Synapse creatures. Ya know, an actual counter exists unlike the faux counters proposed against Commisars.

You can't shoot Neurothropes or Primes. Both are low enough Wound counts to be shielded by friendly Infantry since neither are Monsters either.

Remind me again how many units in the Guard book have Summary Execution? Three, one of which is a named character(Yarrick).
Remind me again how many of them benefit from Regimental rules? Zero.

But please. Let's keep pretending that you can't maneuver or use sniper weapons. People just don't want to.

You mean all the sniper squads you need 150+ points of to kill a singular 30 point model? As well as most armies not having access to snipers in the first place?

There are, at last count, three armies that don't have snipers or an easily accessible sniper facsimilie. Orks, Tyranids, and Genestealer Cultists.

CSM don't really have an excuse anymore since the Renegades & Heretics list is available as an eBook from the Imperial Armour Index that has a whole army list to play with.
Are they great options from R&H(Marauders can have up to 3 models with Sniper Rifles)? Nope--but it's about the same as a purely Astra Militarum <Regiment> list, since Ratlings are Auxilia.

As well as a single model not exactly being hard to hide out of LOS either on top of those issues?

And there it is ladies and gentlemen. The infamous Schrodinger's Commissar. Somehow able to be both hidden out of LOS but remain within 6" of the unit that he's buffing.

I mean yeah if you wanna pretend it's super easy go ahead.

Playing Tau and Guard, yeah it was super easy to do so. Guard it was a matter of shooting through the Conscripts to get at the Commissar, Tau it was a matter of dropping things into terrain and maneuvering behind the Conscript shield.

That said I was unaware Neurothropes were a synapse creature.

Zoanthropes are Synapse.
Neurothropes were an upgrade to Zoanthropes, and since Zoanthropes had Synapse--Neurothropes did too.

Neurothropes are being moved to HQ.

It's not ALWAYS possible to be out of LoS and within 6" of your buffee units, but it's not exactly impossible either. It really depends on the terrain you play with, but I wouldn't call it Schrodinger's Commissar. That would imply that the two states (within 6" of your unit AND out of LoS) are mutually exclusive, which they aren't in the slightest.

 Fafnir wrote:
Everything I've seen sounds really powerful and characterful, which is nice. Doesn't seem like it'll be as out to lunch as the IG book was, which is nicer.

Only thing I worry about is the capacity to mix hive fleets leading to some really degenerate combinations. I have a good feeling that the book will bend Eldar over and ruin them without much of a game to be played, for example. In general, the Tyranid ability to completely neuter anyone else's psychic phase for an insignificant cost is a poor way to handle smite spam, and hurts more synergistic powers and the armies that rely on them far more. At a competitive level, I have a genuine concern that Tyranids will hard counter Craftworld Eldar out of competition (because we need more Ynnari, obviously).

Well, I don't know if mixing Fleets will prove to be practical, because Synapse is (Hive Fleet). I think that Kronos (the anti psycher Fleet) is more of a "Meta" changer, than an faction breaker. The Fleet is in no way a "auto take" so it molds the "Meta" by being a possable take.

You can't build for a Tourney without thinking "What if I bang into a Kronos Fleet?" And that is good, if it makes Smite Spam less common...because it's kinda boring, both to play, or face it.

I want to get the codex in hand, and chapter approved. But there is good chance my nids may see the table again after 20 years of being boxed up.

clownshoes wrote:
I want to get the codex in hand, and chapter approved. But there is good chance my nids may see the table again after 20 years of being boxed up.

Good news!

pinecone77 wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Everything I've seen sounds really powerful and characterful, which is nice. Doesn't seem like it'll be as out to lunch as the IG book was, which is nicer.

Only thing I worry about is the capacity to mix hive fleets leading to some really degenerate combinations. I have a good feeling that the book will bend Eldar over and ruin them without much of a game to be played, for example. In general, the Tyranid ability to completely neuter anyone else's psychic phase for an insignificant cost is a poor way to handle smite spam, and hurts more synergistic powers and the armies that rely on them far more. At a competitive level, I have a genuine concern that Tyranids will hard counter Craftworld Eldar out of competition (because we need more Ynnari, obviously).

Well, I don't know if mixing Fleets will prove to be practical, because Synapse is (Hive Fleet). I think that Kronos (the anti psycher Fleet) is more of a "Meta" changer, than an faction breaker. The Fleet is in no way a "auto take" so it molds the "Meta" by being a possable take.

You can't build for a Tourney without thinking "What if I bang into a Kronos Fleet?" And that is good, if it makes Smite Spam less common...because it's kinda boring, both to play, or face it.

A Flyrant and two or three swarms of rippers (units you'd probably want to take for most lists anyway) is all you really need with the Kronos fleet to deny your opponent access to their most important psychic powers, and should be easy to include in any competitive TAC list. Yes, it costs a detachment, but Tyranids should have no problem fitting a Brigade in cheaply, which should give them all the command points they need.

Taking down Smite spam is nice, but the problem is that doing so is a blanket solution that ends up hurting casters that don't rely on mortal wound spam even more.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main difference you can actually shoot Synapse creatures.

I guess I shouldn't tell you that there are multiple synapse creature options in the book that aren't monstrous creatures then, huh?

Ya know, an actual counter exists unlike the faux counters proposed against Commisars.

Commissars were pretty easy to take down if you put even a modicum of effort and strategy into it. Y'know, like you're supposed to.

 Fafnir wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Everything I've seen sounds really powerful and characterful, which is nice. Doesn't seem like it'll be as out to lunch as the IG book was, which is nicer.

Only thing I worry about is the capacity to mix hive fleets leading to some really degenerate combinations. I have a good feeling that the book will bend Eldar over and ruin them without much of a game to be played, for example. In general, the Tyranid ability to completely neuter anyone else's psychic phase for an insignificant cost is a poor way to handle smite spam, and hurts more synergistic powers and the armies that rely on them far more. At a competitive level, I have a genuine concern that Tyranids will hard counter Craftworld Eldar out of competition (because we need more Ynnari, obviously).

Well, I don't know if mixing Fleets will prove to be practical, because Synapse is (Hive Fleet). I think that Kronos (the anti psycher Fleet) is more of a "Meta" changer, than an faction breaker. The Fleet is in no way a "auto take" so it molds the "Meta" by being a possable take.

You can't build for a Tourney without thinking "What if I bang into a Kronos Fleet?" And that is good, if it makes Smite Spam less common...because it's kinda boring, both to play, or face it.

A Flyrant and two or three swarms of rippers (units you'd probably want to take for most lists anyway) is all you really need with the Kronos fleet to deny your opponent access to their most important psychic powers, and should be easy to include in any competitive TAC list. Yes, it costs a detachment, but Tyranids should have no problem fitting a Brigade in cheaply, which should give them all the command points they need.

Taking down Smite spam is nice, but the problem is that doing so is a blanket solution that ends up hurting casters that don't rely on mortal wound spam even more.

If you're not a Smite Spam army, you should be able to take down one Tyrant pretty easy. So, "meta" changer, instead of meta breaker. I think that Aeldari, and Chaos are the most boned by Kronos, as they tend to depend on getting off certain casts, and Kronos is likely to make it hard, rather than shut the whole army down. I'm pretty sure a Web Way Portal will still work, and Berserkers can still chop stuff up...

While you can take those Kronos units fairly easily with one turn of concentrated shooting, that's one turn of extremely strong psychic denial in a game that is insanely frontloaded in terms of damage done. By simply moving into range, the Kronos microfleet can place an absolutely massive opportunity cost upon an Eldar army, or any other force that relies extensively upon psychic buffing.

It also doesn't help that Eldar have extremely inefficient anti-horde control, which Nids can freely bring to the table with ease.

On its own without Kronos, I'd argue that the Nids would be a difficult matchup for Eldar, but within reason. I think the ability to tack on a cheap Kronos detachment (At 2000 point levels, although I feel it would be much harder to fit something in so freely at 1500. I prefer the 1500 point level quite a bit myself, so it shouldn't affect my casual games too much, but I am concerned for the state of the game -- I dislike seeing strong counter-factions in any context) for a significant advantage turns it up to 11.

 Fafnir wrote:
While you can take those Kronos units fairly easily with one turn of concentrated shooting, that's one turn of extremely strong psychic denial in a game that is insanely frontloaded in terms of damage done. By simply moving into range, the Kronos microfleet can place an absolutely massive opportunity cost upon an Eldar army, or any other force that relies extensively upon psychic buffing.

It also doesn't help that Eldar have extremely inefficient anti-horde control, which Nids can freely bring to the table with ease.

On its own without Kronos, I'd argue that the Nids would be a difficult matchup for Eldar, but within reason. I think the ability to tack on a cheap Kronos detachment (At 2000 point levels, although I feel it would be much harder to fit something in so freely at 1500. I prefer the 1500 point level quite a bit myself, so it shouldn't affect my casual games too much, but I am concerned for the state of the game -- I dislike seeing strong counter-factions in any context) for a significant advantage turns it up to 11.

Yeah, it might be a bit of a wreaking ball on the local "meta"...but I think it's too soon to know for sure, I am thinking of a Kronos strike force of three Winged Tyrants, including a Balethone relic cannon...not a small investment, but I consider it "nessisary" to handle Mortarion, and/or Magnus, for example.

Craftworld just came out, so time may show that Psychers are less "manditory" for victory. Heck after facing a Hydra Fleet, an Aeldari might be wishing for a Kronos Fleet to fight. (Right now it looks like Hydra will be a serious "rush" army)

 Fafnir wrote:
While you can take those Kronos units fairly easily with one turn of concentrated shooting, that's one turn of extremely strong psychic denial in a game that is insanely frontloaded in terms of damage done. By simply moving into range, the Kronos microfleet can place an absolutely massive opportunity cost upon an Eldar army, or any other force that relies extensively upon psychic buffing.

It also doesn't help that Eldar have extremely inefficient anti-horde control, which Nids can freely bring to the table with ease.

On its own without Kronos, I'd argue that the Nids would be a difficult matchup for Eldar, but within reason. I think the ability to tack on a cheap Kronos detachment (at 2000 point levels, although I feel it would be much harder to fit something in so freely at 1500) for a significant advantage turns it up to 11.

I think you might be right.
Just being able to break out Deepest Shadow whenever they want to cast Doom would be fairly decisive - far more so than shutting down Malefic Lord #6's Smite.

pinecone77 wrote:

clownshoes wrote:
I want to get the codex in hand, and chapter approved. But there is good chance my nids may see the table again after 20 years of being boxed up.

Good news!

Oh my lol, it has been a while since i looked at these. Welcome back to the 90s, oh that horrible basing, could i have used any more of a grim dark palette... geez... well if i bring back my nids these poor things will need a face lift.

As an elder player I see that most of my psychic powers cannot be cast when in range ....like at all. Not even a chance to roll. There is not plus or minus or making the elder reroll or anything.....It just nerfs all the powers of 7 or better.

That is just wow. What other element in the game in any faction has a counter that just eliminates it completely?

I'm not talking about 'almost' no chance to work or really is all but useless....but actually makes it completely eliminated?

I doubt anything in the game...so no I'm not happy about that.

clownshoes wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

clownshoes wrote:
I want to get the codex in hand, and chapter approved. But there is good chance my nids may see the table again after 20 years of being boxed up.

Good news!

Spoiler:

Oh my lol, it has been a while since i looked at these. Welcome back to the 90s, oh that horrible basing, could i have used any more of a grim dark palette... geez... well if i bring back my nids these poor things will need a face lift.

By 90s standards those bases are awesome. Nothing says 2e40k/5eWHFB like goblin green bases.

 admironheart wrote:
As an elder player I see that most of my psychic powers cannot be cast when in range ....like at all. Not even a chance to roll. There is not plus or minus or making the elder reroll or anything.....It just nerfs all the powers of 7 or better.

That is just wow. What other element in the game in any faction has a counter that just eliminates it completely?

I'm not talking about 'almost' no chance to work or really is all but useless....but actually makes it completely eliminated?

I doubt anything in the game...so no I'm not happy about that.

Considering its a stratagem and it can only be used once per psychic phase I think you might be a wee bit hyperbolic.

 admironheart wrote:
As an elder player I see that most of my psychic powers cannot be cast when in range ....like at all. Not even a chance to roll. There is not plus or minus or making the elder reroll or anything.....It just nerfs all the powers of 7 or better.

That is just wow. What other element in the game in any faction has a counter that just eliminates it completely?

I'm not talking about 'almost' no chance to work or really is all but useless....but actually makes it completely eliminated?

I doubt anything in the game...so no I'm not happy about that.

The other fun thing to note is that by having a Kronos warlord flyrant in range, you inflict D3 mortal wounds on any model that fails a psychic test. By simply existing in the vicinity with access to the stratagem, a Warlock will get popped 66% of the time just for trying to use a power. So by holding that Stratagem over your head, your Warlocks are effectively deadlocked.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Considering its a stratagem and it can only be used once per psychic phase I think you might be a wee bit hyperbolic.

See above. Much like being on a boat, it's all about the Implication.

The problem with this psychic lockdown is that even if the Eldar player uses their preceeding shooting phase to focus fire the Flyrant down (and they have to, because come turn two, the flyrant is going to start eating people with more than just his mind), they've been forced into that position while the rest of the Tyranid fleet can freely move forward, and the Eldar have already had a significant portion of their synergistic buffs denied to them. In effect, not only are the Eldar put into a situation where they have to give up something, but they've lost their potential to setup any sort of similar situation for their opponent, they're stuck running around trying to put out one fire at a time.