Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
GK autolose to screens. That's a terrible, terrible flaw in 8th. Just ask my BA.

We don't really need to ask when you give that info so readily every other post.

But yeah, GK need some buffs that's for sure.

I suppose that's true. The challenge is what buffs do you give GK? They're the same buffs BA need, but aren't going to get. Huge model counts of models that cost very little rule the day. Low model count lists can't throw the dice sufficient to get the job done.

Personally, I see the Blood Angels' perennial issues as analogous to the "5th ed Harlequin problem"

If you'll recall, Harlequins used to be a single Elites slot unit in both the Dark Eldar and the Eldar codex. They sucked, but didn't ever get fixed, because they were in two different books and didn't want one version to be different than the other.

BAs rely heavily on jump pack assault marines as the core of their army. Jump pack assault marines suck, and haven't been buffed, because they hit two layers of the Harlequin problem. A) the unit appears in multiple books, B ) they use the base marine statline, and that big old 1 in the attacks column has plagued them since forever. They just don't freaking kill anything.

If I were designing a blood angel book, as a starter, I would fix them with the following:

1) Their chapter tactic is a 5" minimum deep strike distance instead of 9". Flamers, hand flamers, meltas work on deep strike, and charges are much easier to make. screening is still the counter, and only half the army max can still make use of it (only applies to units that drop/teleport in, not Scouts, so you don't get the de facto null-deploy into charge range possibility)

2) The marines NEED more basic attacks. Instead of just flat buffing, I'd make that a conditional - change the Black Rage rule to be "If a unit wipes out the last model of an enemy unit through attacks in the Fight phase, that unit may immediately pile in and fight a second time instead of Consolidating". any Death Company units get the second round automatically, but give them some kind of rule like if there's no target to attack with the second round, they each make a single S4 Ap- attack against the unit or the unit takes a single mortal wound or something.

Keep in mind, this is a realistic fix - a real fix would be at the base level, going through and actually correctly costing all marine units for the new edition, which I doubt is going to happen in a subfaction codex. Maybe Chapter Approved, maybe the rumors pan out, but I doubt it'd be in a BA codex.

 Vaktathi wrote:
A tank commander is 45pts more than a HS Russ. That's no small increase, their inclusion must be considered. 3 HQ tanks equals roughly 4 HS tanks in terms of cost. In general, the 3 HQ tanks will be slightly killier, about 16% more between BS3+ and reroll 1 orders to each other, but bring 33% less resiliency and table manuever elements. The HQ tank is not an auto include by any means (though Pask can be close...).

I'd take them every time. They can also be made more beefy as well with their other orders. Plus the BS upgrade becomes increasingly better as the enemy starts making you -1 to hit and such. Really though I could see how more cheaper tanks could be better. Cost comparison wise with the predator though - the commander is much closer in price and is better. More wounds/ more toughness/more mobility/ more firepower. Basically 100% better. Chronus for a little bit more points is the king of tank hunting but - you can only take one of him and he's really not much better than a LR commander.

And then you'd die 25% faster to SM Tacs with Lascannons. While killing them no faster.

I'm really convinced with the GK thing.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

More options? better options? I'd call that being worse. That is what I am trying to say.

It's only worse if you're actually losing games. The data does not pan out as Blacksails and others have mentioned more than once to you.

Your own petulant whining that you lack the options that other armies have (while having some other options that other armies don't, as it should be) is childish at best, and deliberately trolling at worse.

Guilliman making some placing with ultra marines does not make the codex good - plus all the of tournament wins with stormraven spam are 100% invalid now. Then you have to consider how many armies show up to tournaments with guilliman and razorbacks...armies that people have because gladius was a razorback army and that was easily the most popular army at the end of 7th. it's really not surprising to see some guilliman victories. The rest of the codex is trash though.

"If you take away the GOOD options the codex is bad!"

Well, yes, I suppose that's tautologically true - and I think it's true of every codex. It's a tautology and useless to say.

Guilliman is the only good option though - people constantly complain that he is OP - Truely he would be in any other army - he would be unbeatable in AM if he buffed them like ultra marines. That's how bad the marines are. Simple question - it never gets answered...I think because the answer is so plainly obvious and proves my point to a T. If guilliman buffed AM like he buffed marines...Could AM ever lose a game?

I'm sorry I posted on this thread. I agree with some of the OPs basic premises, namely that SM/CSM codices will suffer the most from Codex creep and that Chapter/Legion traits should apply to all units, but that's really about it.

This tangential diving off into the questionably presented theoretical mathematics comparing specific units and strategems sans context is just silly.

Bharring wrote:
And then you'd die 25% faster to SM Tacs with Lascannons. While killing them no faster.

battle of shooting attrition? choose the -1 to hit with order that allows you to pop smoke and still shot. You are now more durable with 3 russ than 4 and still shoot better. On the first turn? Just hide.

If Big G is the only good unit in the Dex, how do so many lists do so well at tournies without Big G?

Bharring wrote:
If Big G is the only good unit in the Dex, how do so many lists do so well at tournies without Big G?

They don't? It's a fairy tale? People in England play soft lists? Where I am from - AM win all tournaments. Why don't these event post their results better anyways?

LOL!

"Your data is wrong and I can safely ignore it because my local area is different than your global data-collecting tournament circuit."

I mean I get calling data that contradicts your viewpoint "fake news" is all the rage these days, but surely I thought the miniatures community would be insulated from such an obviously silly position.

Remember the Big G list with all those Tac squads that won? The one that "should be" autolose? The #2 in that tourny was Raven Guard.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
LOL!

"Your data is wrong and I can safely ignore it because my local area is different than your global data-collecting tournament circuit."

I mean I get calling data that contradicts your viewpoint "fake news" is all the rage these days, but surely I thought the miniatures community would be insulated from such an obviously silly position.

The only place I know where to look for tournament results is blood of kittens...which was updated in august...This makes the data incomplete - do you not see this? Also just looking at blood of kittens list of results. How much has changed in this game since august? Well...only about 4 new codex's since then.The majority of space marine lists that won events are storm raven/flyer spam. Clearly those list are from before the GW nerfing of flyers only list as being auto lose armies.

Can you show me a legit source of data? That has tournament dates? Where I can see all the army lists at the tournament? All the match-ups of the winners? Without this kind of analysis the data is pretty much worthless. For example when a friend of mine tells me he went to a tournament and came in second with his orks. The first thing I'm going to do is ask him what his match-ups were and what army was at the final table. I'm not automatically going to assume orks are good now because they placed well a tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Remember the Big G list with all those Tac squads that won? The one that "should be" autolose? The #2 in that tourny was Raven Guard.

Yeah it's kind of odd because I would spank that army with my friggen GK's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also still no answer to the question of Guilliman buffing AM units like be buffs Ultra marines. I'm still waiting on that one.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
LOL!

"Your data is wrong and I can safely ignore it because my local area is different than your global data-collecting tournament circuit."

I mean I get calling data that contradicts your viewpoint "fake news" is all the rage these days, but surely I thought the miniatures community would be insulated from such an obviously silly position.

The only place I know where to look for tournament results is blood of kittens...which was updated in august...This makes the data incomplete - do you not see this? Also just looking at blood of kittens list of results. How much has changed in this game since august? Well...only about 4 new codex's since then.The majority of space marine lists that won events are storm raven/flyer spam. Clearly those list are from before the GW nerfing of flyers only list as being auto lose armies.

Can you show me a legit source of data? That has tournament dates? Where I can see all the army lists at the tournament? All the match-ups of the winners? Without this kind of analysis the data is pretty much worthless. For example when a friend of mine tells me he went to a tournament and came in second with his orks. The first thing I'm going to do is ask him what his match-ups were and what army was at the final table. I'm not automatically going to assume orks are good now because they placed well a tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Remember the Big G list with all those Tac squads that won? The one that "should be" autolose? The #2 in that tourny was Raven Guard.

Yeah it's kind of odd because I would spank that army with my friggen GK's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also still no answer to the question of Guilliman buffing AM units like be buffs Ultra marines. I'm still waiting on that one.

Cute that you demand a mountain of cross-referenced data to "prove" the null hypothesis to the situation you set up in the OP with a single comparison between two similar abilities in two different codexes.

Let's summarize the logic here

Premise 1: The Eldar Forewarned stratagem appears to be a better version to the similar Space Marine Servo-Skull stratagem.

Conclusion: I have therefore proven that Space Marines are the worst codex, and to disprove my assertion, I require an unspecified large amount of dated tournament results showing all the full lists and matchups of every participant in said tournament, all of which must adhere to my unspecified standard of competitiveness for me to consider them valid data (this standard of legitimacy may or may not include 'tournament was not won by a space marine list' as a requirement).

Until that is provided to me, I am right, owing to the aforementioned incontrovertible proof as displayed in Premise 1.

Bharring wrote:
Remember the Big G list with all those Tac squads that won? The one that "should be" autolose? The #2 in that tourny was Raven Guard.

Remember how I said those were one-offs though and they were unlikely to happen again? I was correct on that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh nobody disagree's that Ork's are the worst right now., but that's not the argument at hand because they don't have a codex. Which is what the argument is going for because it's discussing that out of all the codexes the SM one is the worst.

GK's are better than space marines IMO.

They have a viable troop choice with strike squad marines.
Every unit has mini smite that goes off on 4's.
They have an actual workhorse unit in GMDK
All the units that are actually good are also in the GK codex - Razorbacks/Storm Ravens/Storm Talons - they dont have preds but Storm Ravens are better anyways.
Vortex of doom with empiric channeling
And most importantly - they have strong alpha strike regardless off who goes first.


Things Space marines have that GK don't have?
Guilliman

Dude that mini-smite is terrible. GK has a few pretty great units (Strike Squads, Paladins, and both Dreadknight variations) but the codex itself is pretty blech. 3 good units does not a good codex make.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The only place I know where to look for tournament results is blood of kittens

ITC has a complete compilation of tournament scores.

Yeah it's kind of odd because I would spank that army with my friggen GK's.

You are never ending source of amusement. I love the claims that you'd sweep every tournament you'd enter with random armies. Never change.

I'm not sure the GK would win the race vs Bobby G asscannon party.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not sure the GK would win the race vs Bobby G asscannon party.

Are you talking Mono-GK, or 4 models + the rest imperial guard GK?

It's not a hard army to beat. 2/3 of it's offense can be nullified by being within 1 inch of them. Something my GK would have no problem doing to at least 3 of his razors on the first turn. Good chance they die too. Strike squads alone will murder Guilliman once hes commited to getting in assault. The tactical marines? I will literally just ignore those worthless units and mop them up at the end of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not sure the GK would win the race vs Bobby G asscannon party.

If you roll poorly you will not keep up. If you manage to tie up razorbacks and shoot the ones you can't assault to death it's pretty easy. It's so easy I would never even consider bringing an army of razorbacks to a tournament. One thing that I can assure you - the razorback army is dead with the eldar quicken shinning spears build. It is autowin vs guilliman and razorbacks.

In that scenario i would specify that my ITC objective is to hold points on the board, the asscannon party is incredibly restricted in where it can be; you can focus the lascannon units with your copious amounts of HWT mortars, and just stay away from the 24" killzone. I don't think it would work, but going into the teeth of the gunline's optimal range is absolute suicide.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's not a hard army to beat. 2/3 of it's offense can be nullified by being within 1 inch of them. Something my GK would have no problem doing to at least 3 of his razors on the first turn. Good chance they die too. Strike squads alone will murder Guilliman once hes commited to getting in assault. The tactical marines? I will literally just ignore those worthless units and mop them up at the end of the game.

A: He'd probably just screen his Razors with his Tacticals.

B: Go win a tournament with your GK then.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's not a hard army to beat. 2/3 of it's offense can be nullified by being within 1 inch of them. Something my GK would have no problem doing to at least 3 of his razors on the first turn. Good chance they die too. Strike squads alone will murder Guilliman once hes commited to getting in assault. The tactical marines? I will literally just ignore those worthless units and mop them up at the end of the game.

A: He'd probably just screen his Razors with his Tacticals.

B: Go win a tournament with your GK then.

No, now he's made an assertion. How this works is, now you have to prove that his GK's CANT go sweep a tournament

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's not a hard army to beat. 2/3 of it's offense can be nullified by being within 1 inch of them. Something my GK would have no problem doing to at least 3 of his razors on the first turn. Good chance they die too. Strike squads alone will murder Guilliman once hes commited to getting in assault. The tactical marines? I will literally just ignore those worthless units and mop them up at the end of the game.

A: He'd probably just screen his Razors with his Tacticals.

B: Go win a tournament with your GK then.

25 models are going to screen my entire deep strike aplha?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's not a hard army to beat. 2/3 of it's offense can be nullified by being within 1 inch of them. Something my GK would have no problem doing to at least 3 of his razors on the first turn. Good chance they die too. Strike squads alone will murder Guilliman once hes commited to getting in assault. The tactical marines? I will literally just ignore those worthless units and mop them up at the end of the game.

A: He'd probably just screen his Razors with his Tacticals.

B: Go win a tournament with your GK then.

25 models are going to screen my entire deep strike aplha?

Report back after you've swept a GT.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's not a hard army to beat. 2/3 of it's offense can be nullified by being within 1 inch of them. Something my GK would have no problem doing to at least 3 of his razors on the first turn. Good chance they die too. Strike squads alone will murder Guilliman once hes commited to getting in assault. The tactical marines? I will literally just ignore those worthless units and mop them up at the end of the game.

A: He'd probably just screen his Razors with his Tacticals.

B: Go win a tournament with your GK then.

25 models are going to screen my entire deep strike aplha?

Yes. I've done it with BA already vs deep strikers. The deep strikers have to move before they shoot. They will be stuck out in between DZs if you do it right. You have to measure very precisely, but it can be done. He can use the raven, too, since assaulting it is largely meaningless. GK lists are gonna have like what? 20 models? Not fearing it lol.

 Marmatag wrote:
In that scenario i would specify that my ITC objective is to hold points on the board, the asscannon party is incredibly restricted in where it can be; you can focus the lascannon units with your copious amounts of HWT mortars, and just stay away from the 24" killzone. I don't think it would work, but going into the teeth of the gunline's optimal range is absolute suicide.

No that's how you beat it - by assaulting the razorbacks. You must always go after an armies weakness. This is something GK are very good at. I am suggesting a full GK build - not soup. Also - forget this objecitve nonsense. An army will be tabled by turn 3.

GK aren't tabling anyone in 3 turns. They are just bigger fancier BA.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's not a hard army to beat. 2/3 of it's offense can be nullified by being within 1 inch of them. Something my GK would have no problem doing to at least 3 of his razors on the first turn. Good chance they die too. Strike squads alone will murder Guilliman once hes commited to getting in assault. The tactical marines? I will literally just ignore those worthless units and mop them up at the end of the game.

A: He'd probably just screen his Razors with his Tacticals.

B: Go win a tournament with your GK then.

25 models are going to screen my entire deep strike aplha?

Yes. I've done it with BA already vs deep strikers. The deep strikers have to move before they shoot. They will be stuck out in between DZs if you do it right. You have to measure very precisely, but it can be done. He can use the raven, too, since assaulting it is largely meaningless. GK lists are gonna have like what? 20 models? Not fearing it lol.

No - 30 strike marines is 650 points...This is the core of any competitive GK list.

You DS, make a 9" charge? And on enough of his Razors such that he can't just fall back and shoot you off the table? And the Tacs don't kill you? And how quickly do you actually kill the Razors in CC? And why didn't he screen with Tacs? And, failing that, why didn't he screen with a pair or Razorbacks, making it impossible for you to get into CC with more than 2?

Those guys are over 20 ppm with no extra durability over tacs. They'll be cut to pieces in a single turn of asscannon party. Plus marines in cover have a 2+ save vs all those stormbolters.

Bharring wrote:
You DS, make a 9" charge? And on enough of his Razors such that he can't just fall back and shoot you off the table? And the Tacs don't kill you? And how quickly do you actually kill the Razors in CC? And why didn't he screen with Tacs? And, failing that, why didn't he screen with a pair or Razorbacks, making it impossible for you to get into CC with more than 2?

It's a reroll charge. It's about a 40% chance.