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You are already wrong. Marines were not top 3 in most editions.

I think the 'nuh-uh, CWE are the worstest' is a strawman.

Lots of posts on why specific examples of CWE being better are factually incorrect (wrong rules), missing key elements, or hyperbole.

I don't think anyone's claimed CWE are worse than SM. Most - myself included - think they are better. Just not as much better as the OP.

The arguments have either been on specific inaccuracies on the SM vs CWE point or on SM vs other books.

Also - isn't AdMech worse than SM? SO doesn't that put 2 above, 2 below, and CSM/DG unlisted? Putting SM *exactly* in the middle?

Sure, whatever. Until the Tyranid dex drops. And then the Tau dex. And so on. There is the chance that chapter approved changes some things up, too.

I don't think I can agree that CWE are better than SM as a whole.
The SM "baseline" is flat out better. More cost effective, durable choices that don't have to have support, but are magnified by such support.
The CW "baseline" has to have supporting elements (special abilities, stratagems, etc).

I will agree that CW have better stratagems, but that is because their army requires them to function competitively in the first place. SMs still get more CPs in general, so while their stratagems may not be as good, they generally get to use more of them over the course of the game.

-

But is the SM "baseline" better in a meaningful way? I'd argue not at all.

Also, T3 is better than it ever has been.

Martel732 wrote:
Sure, whatever. Until the Tyranid dex drops. And then the Tau dex. And so on. There is the chance that chapter approved changes some things up, too.

I'd not be surprised at all to see the rumored points changes and more play out. I'm assuming Chapter APproved is going to be a few faction-specific abilities/relics/etc for all armies that don't currently have codexes, and a balance pass for all the "pre-playtesting" codex armies (GK, Admech, SM, CSM) which got sent to printers before the game released.

 Xenomancers wrote:

clownshoes wrote:
Can someone put this thread out of our collective misery? It was funny 5 pages ago, the joke has long since played itself out.

The premise is premature and petulant.

The leaks of chapter approved indicates some measure of game balance maintenance on behalf of GW. They are on here and spikey bits, if yu want to check them out.

Hey guy - nice of you to join the community. Nice post count.

Speaking as someone with more posts than you, post count means nothing.

Bharring wrote:
Also - isn't AdMech worse than SM? SO doesn't that put 2 above, 2 below, and CSM/DG unlisted? Putting SM *exactly* in the middle?

I played 5 games at SCO, both of my losses were against AdMech (they both had Conscript screens but that was all the AM they brought to the table). Those robots with Cawl are nasty, especially with Wrath of Mars, those MWs stack up fast.

Of course, given that both armies had similar builds I may be just seeing the one trick that pony has.

But it's a good trick.

AdMech seems to me to be in something like the same situation as Marines. There's a very narrow slice of the codex which is really strong, especially with some Guard support, and everything else struggles. Marines can take Ultramarines with Guilliman and a gunline. Admech can take Mars with Cawl and robots. I would say that the Marine codex is overall a lot more satisfying insofar as you can also do pretty good things with Salamanders and Raven Guard even if these aren't the toppest of top tier.

Dionysodorus wrote:
AdMech seems to me to be in something like the same situation as Marines. There's a very narrow slice of the codex which is really strong, especially with some Guard support, and everything else struggles. Marines can take Ultramarines with Guilliman and a gunline. Admech can take Mars with Cawl and robots. I would say that the Marine codex is overall a lot more satisfying insofar as you can also do pretty good things with Salamanders and Raven Guard even if these aren't the toppest of top tier.

There are two other forgeworlds as well with decent gimmicks - Sygies is about on the same level as Raven Guard because...well..theyre the same, and Lucius, which is what I play, can do some interesting shenanigans with deep striking shooty priests. If you want to tailor to counter the horde meta, theres almost nothing better.

Isn't this a kind of weird race to the bottom?

Player1- My army is worse than your army!
Player2- Nyah ah my army is much worse than yours!

Granted that not all the codex armies are equal if you feel your army is the worst off then either start another, by definition, better army or just suck it up and play the game as a game for your enjoyment.

I'm confused - with everything I had read, I thought people thought AdMech was really bad, as far as codexes are concerned. Sounds like consensus is that it's actually middle of the pack for codexes? Substantially above all the Indexes?

Bharring wrote:
I'm confused - with everything I had read, I thought people thought AdMech was really bad, as far as codexes are concerned. Sounds like consensus is that it's actually middle of the pack for codexes? Substantially above all the Indexes?

I think it's fairly uncontroversial that it's a bad codex, insofar as there's pretty bad internal balance, lots of missed opportunities, etc. I don't know if there's much of a consensus on power level, either for its best lists or for its average lists. It's not a very popular army and so most people won't have had much experience with it. Certainly lots of index (and many codex) armies would struggle against Cawl robots.

It's just another army that depends on Imperial Guard, and when you start looking at the numbers it makes sense to just run all guard. Same as GK. I would say AdMech is in a very bad place right now, down with GK. I played an admech guy in a tourny and I didn't lose a model before he scooped.

pre-Eldar codex, could you say Eldar was balanced because Ynaari was good? No? Then don't say marines are balanced because Guilliman is good. Guilliman is the Yncarne for marines.

Bharring wrote:
I'm confused - with everything I had read, I thought people thought AdMech was really bad, as far as codexes are concerned. Sounds like consensus is that it's actually middle of the pack for codexes? Substantially above all the Indexes?

I can tell you it was relatively popular at SCO (it may be that I just happened to get matched up against them in 2/5 matches though), although as previously mentioned, they all seemed slight variations of the same build. So there may be some issues with it's ability to field diverse/flexible lists. It has some very effective combos however.

AdMech is in a fairly similar spot to SM in that they are extremely dependent on a named character's aura to be viable, though I think AdMech without Cawl is much worse than SM without Guilliman.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
AdMech is in a fairly similar spot to SM in that they are extremely dependent on a named character's aura to be viable, though I think AdMech without Cawl is much worse than SM without Guilliman.

I personally hope GW halts on the balancing around special characters to make armies strong.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
AdMech is in a fairly similar spot to SM in that they are extremely dependent on a named character's aura to be viable, though I think AdMech without Cawl is much worse than SM without Guilliman.

That's definitely a fair statement.

I would say it goes like this, from best to worst:

1. Imperial Guard
2. Imperial Guard stands alone
3. Eldar
4. Chaos Space Marines
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10. Space Marines
11. Death Guard
12.
13.
14. Grey Knights
15. Admech

Grey Knights and admech are almost on the same level, but GK has the nemesis dreadknight grand master, which allows people to bring them, and technically call themselves "Grey Knights" while bringing 99% imperial guard models, for the ITC distinction "Best GK Player" when they're really just a guard player wanting an easy rank up. You can't do this with AdMech so the nod goes to GK.

Saying Index-CWE was fine because Ycarne is more like saying SM are fine because Conscripts. Ynnari are Eldar, but not Craftworlders.

Is AdMech any better than SM without IG? Is AdMech with IG any better than SM with IG?

It's sounding like there are 2 better codexes (IG, CWE) and two worse codexes (SM, AdMech)? So even in the contorted question, SM are dead middle of the pack, not even in the bottom half?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit - or 3 above 3 below, if that's where CSM and DG fall. Same story.

Bharring wrote:
Saying Index-CWE was fine because Ycarne is more like saying UM are fine because Conscripts. Ynnari are Eldar, but not Craftworlders.

Is AdMech any better than UM without IG? Is AdMech with IG any better than UM with IG?

It's sounding like there are 2 better codexes (IG, CWE) and two worse codexes (UM, AdMech)? So even in the contorted question, UM are dead middle of the pack, not even in the bottom half?

Ultramarines aren't Salamanders/Raven Guard/ White Scars/ Imperial Fists / Blood Angels/ Space Wolves/ Grey Knights / Dark Angels.

Guilliman ONLY buffs Ultramarines. His imperium buff is not meaningful and laughably bad if you're playing marines that aren't blue.

And CSM got a solid codex, there are multiple viable strategies. Yes, chaos depends on FW but until GW sacks up and does something about FW, it's the reality.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
AdMech is in a fairly similar spot to SM in that they are extremely dependent on a named character's aura to be viable, though I think AdMech without Cawl is much worse than SM without Guilliman.

That's definitely a fair statement.

I would say it goes like this, from best to worst:

1. Imperial Guard
2. Imperial Guard stands alone
3. Eldar
4. Chaos Space Marines
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10. Space Marines
11. Death Guard
12.
13.
14. Grey Knights
15. Admech

Grey Knights and admech are almost on the same level, but GK has the nemesis dreadknight grand master, which allows people to bring them, and technically call themselves "Grey Knights" while bringing 99% imperial guard models, for the ITC distinction "Best GK Player" when they're really just a guard player wanting an easy rank up. You can't do this with AdMech so the nod goes to GK.

Please stop with the CSM, seriously, be accurate please, Chaos lists that are placing in tournaments barely use anything from the actual CSM codex:

1. Imperial Guard
2. Imperial Guard stands alone
3. Eldar
4. Renegades/Daemons (Malefic Lords/Horrors smite spam)
5.
6. Death Guard
7.
8.
9. Chaos Space Marines
10. Space Marines
11.
12.
13.
14. Grey Knights
15. Admech

I could pedantically argue about your placement of AdMech, but I'll agree it's a one-trick pony currently and pretty bad if they have to stand on their own probably. I completely disagree with your placement of DG, I don't think anyone's really fielded a really synergistic DG army in tournament yet, but on paper they have some builds that appear very solid.

What are you even talking about, try going second against Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers.

There are also viable lists with Obliterators, and primarch super friends / daemon princes.

Chaos space marines got some fantastic psychic powers, too.

@marmatag: oops, meant SM not UM. UM might be the most popular tournament-placing Chapter, but it's hardly the only one.

Bharring wrote:
@marmatag: oops, meant SM not UM. UM might be the most popular tournament-placing Chapter, but it's hardly the only one.

I don't even care about marines at this point. Say they're the number 1 faction, it's just as accurate.

My hope is that Tyranids will be competitive with imperial guard and chaos space marines. I highly doubt it, but i can hope.

My point is mildly pedantic. Magnus is not a CSM codex unit. Mortarion is not a CSM codex unit. Neither is the Changeling, Malefic Lords and most of the other stuff that is actually *placing* in tournaments.

 Marmatag wrote:
What are you even talking about, try going second against Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers.

- In theory amazing, in tournament, haven't seen them placing. At the same time, if you know it's coming it's pretty easy to deploy accordingly, they wipe out a screen and then sit in the open and get shot to hell the following round. I really don't see why everyone freaks out about this, seriously, if you built your list so badly that a single squad of Berzerkers is destroying it, you need to re-think things. Alpha Legion are hardly the only effective delivery method for Berzerkers, definitely the cheapest.

 Marmatag wrote:
There are also viable lists with Obliterators, and primarch super friends / daemon princes.

- As much as everyone would like them to be, honestly, putting Magnus and Mortarion in the same list is just not that impressive, I've faced that list, it really wasn't hard to take it apart. There are better synergies, Mortarion is honestly better in a pure DG list. Furthermore, super-friends is not CSM, that's Index/DG/Daemons. Obliterators are decent, definitely an angle there, again, not placing.

 Marmatag wrote:
Chaos space marines got some fantastic psychic powers, too.

- Agreed, best in the game in my opinion, at least the most generally useful powers in the game, for sure.

This thread has been very specific on being pedantic about only considering Codexes, and not indexes. That pedantry is actually appropriate per some of the posts here.

If it were looked at that way, wouldn't SM be 2 above, *4* below? I still see it as 3 above/3 below, but the OP was very specific.

Either way, not even bottom half - a long way from ABSOLUTE WORST.

Khorne Berzerkers are a staple in a lot of placing lists. I have also seen obliterators place.

I'm only referring to ITC/NOVA style events though, not GW tournies.

And some of your points are fair, and pedantry is kind of appropriate because the whole idea behind ranking codexes is the pedantry anyway, since it achieves nothing in the first place

In any case, I actually have the CSM codex, and there are some really nice things in there. Compared to some of the other codexes. What the CSM codex does, that the SM codex doesn't do, is give you a really good way to synergize with the rest of your soup. Marines don't really have that to the same effect. IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
This thread has been very specific on being pedantic about only considering Codexes, and not indexes. That pedantry is actually appropriate per some of the posts here.

If it were looked at that way, wouldn't SM be 2 above, *4* below? I still see it as 3 above/3 below, but the OP was very specific.

Either way, not even bottom half - a long way from ABSOLUTE WORST.

I never said it was the worst? (If i did it was in a moment of salt... not how i feel at all and not accurate). I don't have to agree with the OP to participate in the discussion

It boils down to this. It is appropriate to consider codexes on their own merits. But it's also worth noting that the DG/CSM codexes give you a really really good way to synergize with your soup. Marines are so dependent on their buff bubbles to have viable units that they really don't synergize well, at all.

I find the Eldar codex encouraging though for the rest of the Xenos. I'll share my thoughts on the Tyranids codex this Friday for those who care (a small sample). And I do hope Necrons get love in their codex, too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
You DS, make a 9" charge? And on enough of his Razors such that he can't just fall back and shoot you off the table? And the Tacs don't kill you? And how quickly do you actually kill the Razors in CC? And why didn't he screen with Tacs? And, failing that, why didn't he screen with a pair or Razorbacks, making it impossible for you to get into CC with more than 2?

It's a reroll charge. It's about a 40% chance.

48%, so just less than half.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
I'm confused - with everything I had read, I thought people thought AdMech was really bad, as far as codexes are concerned. Sounds like consensus is that it's actually middle of the pack for codexes? Substantially above all the Indexes?

I can tell you as an AdMech player (well originally Skitarii at least) that my Skitarii are barely effective now, and I'm stuck with using Cawl because the regular priest is too expensive, which therefore forces me to Mars.
Which then means I'm forced into a gunline with crawlers and Kastellans.

Someone said it correctly. The SM codex might be better overall, but it's stuck to one build like AdMech. You make a gunline with their big dude, and hope you screen your tanks correctly.
If you removed either Rowboat or the Assault Cannon Razorback, the toppings would greatly diminish. Just like with last edition when we had Gladius to deal with. Now THAT was just plain stupid.

 Marmatag wrote:
What the CSM codex does, that the SM codex doesn't do, is give you a really good way to synergize with the rest of your soup. Marines don't really have that to the same effect. IMO.

Which I am very grateful for. CSM only have 1 other faction to pull from (because DG & Tsons are still CSM). CSM and Daemons fighting together often makes a lot of sense.
Imperials, otoh, have several quite divergent factions to choose from. Making SMs synergize less than Chaos is a good measure of balance that I hope GW keeps up with.

SMs and Guard can work together fine, but being able to combo off each other makes much less sense for them than, say, Tsons and Tzeentch daemons.
I similarly hope that Eldar and Dark Eldar have a degree of separation too. Ynnari and Harlequins may unite them, but overall, I don't think they should be that close.

-

Bharring wrote:
I'm confused - with everything I had read, I thought people thought AdMech was really bad, as far as codexes are concerned. Sounds like consensus is that it's actually middle of the pack for codexes? Substantially above all the Indexes?

Yeah, from what I've seen I don't think I've EVER seen Cawlbots in any of the tournament top results we've seen. Regardless of overall power, at least GK have bothered to show up once or twice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Khorne Berzerkers are a staple in a lot of placing lists. I have also seen obliterators place.

I'm only referring to ITC/NOVA style events though, not GW tournies.

And some of your points are fair, and pedantry is kind of appropriate because the whole idea behind ranking codexes is the pedantry anyway, since it achieves nothing in the first place

In any case, I actually have the CSM codex, and there are some really nice things in there. Compared to some of the other codexes. What the CSM codex does, that the SM codex doesn't do, is give you a really good way to synergize with the rest of your soup. Marines don't really have that to the same effect. IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
This thread has been very specific on being pedantic about only considering Codexes, and not indexes. That pedantry is actually appropriate per some of the posts here.

If it were looked at that way, wouldn't SM be 2 above, *4* below? I still see it as 3 above/3 below, but the OP was very specific.

Either way, not even bottom half - a long way from ABSOLUTE WORST.

I never said it was the worst? (If i did it was in a moment of salt... not how i feel at all and not accurate). I don't have to agree with the OP to participate in the discussion

It boils down to this. It is appropriate to consider codexes on their own merits. But it's also worth noting that the DG/CSM codexes give you a really really good way to synergize with your soup. Marines are so dependent on their buff bubbles to have viable units that they really don't synergize well, at all.

I find the Eldar codex encouraging though for the rest of the Xenos. I'll share my thoughts on the Tyranids codex this Friday for those who care (a small sample). And I do hope Necrons get love in their codex, too.

Oblits have turned up in tourney winning lists with the approximate frequency of tactical marines. FWIW.