Proof that space marine codex is the worst.

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**Kap'n Krump**

Martel732 wrote:
Horde melee has a hope.

Not really. I ran 120 boyz v. a very tame guilliman list, and 2x assbacks (love that term) and a stormraven killed like 50 boyz turn 1 - and that was with KFF & painboyz. Half my fully buffed army just gone to 3 models.

Melee hordes are honestly pretty awful if your opponent has anything more threatening than bolters. And with things like assbacks, predator LRBTs, those new floating primaris tanks, and mork knows what else, coupled with the useless cover rules, and of course lets not forget falling back, melee hordes aren't exactly top-tier.

And, again, that was a very tame list. I've played against people without guilliman, but 4x assbacks, 2x storm talons and 1x storm raven. I can't deal with 7 twin assault cannons. Just wave goodbye to your army.

**Primark G**

It is much too early to say CWE is top three. It is the new eldar and while it has some nice things it is not at the same level anymore... I expect to see Ynasty much more for truly competitive gaming.

**Breng77**

I mean I'm not saying melee isn't tough but it is a little disingenuous to phrase it that you lost 50 models to 3 (4 actually, assuming RG buffs on all those models) models. Especially when we are talking about 300 points killed by 850+ points. That is honestly a pretty good ratio for points killing points, but not so ridiculous as to be considered OP. The problem is the ability for these things to alpha strike things off the board turn 1 with little recourse. The problem becomes that you are often not making the same kind of dent on your turn.

**Marmatag**

Breng77 wrote:
I mean I'm not saying melee isn't tough but it is a little disingenuous to phrase it that you lost 50 models to 3 (4 actually, assuming RG buffs on all those models) models. Especially when we are talking about 300 points killed by 850+ points. That is honestly a pretty good ratio for points killing points, but not so ridiculous as to be considered OP. The problem is the ability for these things to alpha strike things off the board turn 1 with little recourse. The problem becomes that you are often not making the same kind of dent on your turn.

Well he's not highlighting the core issue you face with Imperial Guard and Chaos - you will lose a LOT of models trying to get into melee - but that's kind of what cheap infantry does, they die - but once you get there, you still have to fight your way through their cheap screens, while still being shot every turn, by dramatically increased firepower.

Also, Guilliman's points in mortar teams will kill an entire unit of boyz or gants per turn on *average*, from 48" away without line of sight and absolutely no buffs. That's roughly equivalent in damage to 3 razorbacks with Guilliman buffs, or almost 700 points in marines. The mortars are actually slightly better.

Guilliman is literally the distraction carnifex IG players use when trying to talk about imbalance.

**Kap'n Krump**

I suppose that's a fair observation that it took 850 points to kill 300, but again, that was turn 1, and I lost fully half my army. And you're damned right I didn't make that kind of dent in my turn.

And turn 2, and turn 3, and every turn after is basically the same story.

I guess the point I was going for is that the melee hordes really fall flat, quickly, when single models are now getting 40+ effective anti-infantry shots a turn. Especially when, as marmatag pointed out, you also have to fight your way through cheap screens which then just fall back uncontested (and often without penalty) just to let you get shot at again.

Despite the loss of blasts and templates, I still have to pick up handfuls of infantry every turn by an increasingly ridiculously small amount of models with a ridiculously large amount of shots.

**Galef**

Primark G wrote:
It is much too early to say CWE is top three. It is the new eldar and while it has some nice things it is not at the same level anymore... I expect to see Ynasty much more for truly competitive gaming.

Exactly. Right now CWE have some new toys and people are trying out some combos. But once opponents start to realize just how fragile CWE are (especially to alpha strike) that tourneys will go back to being dominated by Imperials and Chaos.
This edition is a numbers game, and Eldar just don't have the numbers. Arguably neither do pure Marines, but no one was winning tourneys with pure Marines (unless they brought Guilly) before the Eldar codex, sooooo....

**TwinPoleTheory**

the_scotsman wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
It's not GK showing up, it's 4 GK models and the rest imperial guard. It's absolutely disingenuous to say GK are showing up.

Just like people can say Tyranids showed up in 1 tournament, too, but that list had plasma scions, and a bunch of other guard, because GSC.

It's not disingenuous because at least SOMETHING from the codex has shown up in a tournament, that's the point I was trying to make.

Purely by "how frequently do things from the actual codex book turn up in tournaments" your split looks like Admech<GK><CSM><SM><DG><CWE><Guard.

Admech: We know what the best combo in the book is, but have yet to see it actually turn up in a winning list.
GK: GMNDKs, one time (might have been one or two in other lists smattered around)
CSM: Alpha Bezerkers occasionally bring a melee threat to normal chaos soup stuff. Occasionally Oblits.
SM: Guilliman, Assbacks, Stormravens, has been discussed ad nauseum. Random other stuff occasionally.
DG: Mortarion, and that's it, but Mortarion pretty frequently.
CWE: Recent tournaments have shown that a lot of elements in Codex CWE are quite good, whether or not they're good in just ynnari, just craftworld, or both remains to be seen. Still very early, but they seem to have a solid range of options.
Guard: obviously solid across the board. I do expect to see less-ubiquitous Guard post commissar nerf, but they are obviously still good thanks to the structure of 8th and undercosted infantry.

now, you can argue CSM vs SM all you like - but I'm going to make the assertion that due to how frequently we see CSM at the actual CORE of a list, rather than a single element to a soup list, they're actually a hair below SM. Yes, oblits exist, alpha bezerkers are silly. but the actual CSM core list shows up less commonly than the Guilliman core marine list.

I suspect some of this will change when Malefic lords are adjusted, at which point you will probably get a more accurate read on where exactly CSM falls within the grand scheme of things. That being said, I still think SM/CSM traits should apply to all units, I suspect it would at least tease out a few more units into the tournament scene. I know what I'm running at LVO, it uses precisely 1 unit from the CSM codex, it should be fairly effective judging by how a similar list played at SCO, things would have to change pretty radically for me to change my list at this point, although to be fair, part of the list concept is plays easy, plays fast, easy to transport, since finishing games is almost as important as winning them in ITC currently.

**Marmatag**

It's more likely they adjust smite, rather than Malefic lords. If you're limited to 3 casts of smite per turn, suddenly it's not a big deal, since you've already got Magnus, and a couple other smiters.

**TwinPoleTheory**

Marmatag wrote:
It's more likely they adjust smite, rather than Malefic lords. If you're limited to 3 casts of smite per turn, suddenly it's not a big deal, since you've already got Magnus, and a couple other smiters.

They could, but I doubt they will given the cascade effect that could have on armies like Daemons and GK, to accommodate that you'd have to make some sort of special rule for GK where their specialized Smites aren't actually Smites, etc, etc.

**Marmatag**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
It's more likely they adjust smite, rather than Malefic lords. If you're limited to 3 casts of smite per turn, suddenly it's not a big deal, since you've already got Magnus, and a couple other smiters.

They could, but I doubt they will given the cascade effect that could have on armies like Daemons and GK, to accommodate that you'd have to make some sort of special rule for GK where their specialized Smites aren't actually Smites, etc, etc.

If you reduced the smite count to 3 that would have very little effect on Grey Knights. Their competitive builds don't feature that many Grey Knights units anyway, and GMNDKs only know/cast 1 power.

**TwinPoleTheory**

Marmatag wrote:
If you reduced the smite count to 3 that would have very little effect on Grey Knights. Their competitive builds don't feature that many Grey Knights units anyway, and GMNDKs only know/cast 1 power.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, it's just that the cascade effect becomes problematic and has to be accounted for in updating or adjusting Codex-specific rules wherein GW has obviously decided that Smite is part of the schtick. It's not just GK, it's Thousand Sons armies and Tzeentch Daemon armies which will specifically count Smite as part of it's firepower.

**Galas**

They can always make the cast value for smite harder to those low level psykers.

**Arachnofiend**

Limiting Smite like that would make the Aspiring Sorcerer truly and completely useless rather than just "pretty bad" like he is now.

**Galas**

He can have his Smite at the normal value.

Some rule by character for character basis, like:

"WhateverName: This psyker has a modifier of -1/-2 to cast Smite" for things like Astropaths, Primaris Psykers, Malefic Lords, etc...

**Marmatag**

That's the just the change i've heard rumored.

Another change rumor i've heard is that:

D3 -> 1
D6 -> D3
2D16 -> D6

In terms of mortal wounds from smite.

Although I'm not sure how they will adjust it, smite needs to be adjusted. Or, just triple the points cost of Primaris Psykers and Malefic Lords.

And I wouldn't worry about balancing GK with Smite. The army is wall to wall bad. We should not restrict having a balanced 8th because GK are awful.

**Galas**

Personally I have had 0 problems with Smite spam armies because I always play with 10-20 sisters of silence so I just put them around what I want to protect.

And when I don't play those lists, I play horde armies. But yeah, Smite and Mortal Wouds are a counter measure vs Elite armies. The problem is that horde armies are better in 8th than elite armies, and the armies with most access to mortal wounds are horde armies

**TwinPoleTheory**

Galas wrote:
They can always make the cast value for smite harder to those low level psykers.

They could, but it's a 5 right now, if you make it anything more than a 6 then any psyker who checks on a single die is hosed. Honestly, as banal as it sounds, the easiest solution is to increase the points costs on some of the psykers that use the power.

The more complicated solution would be to have different powers that are not Smite and attach them to the various units that rely upon Smite as part of their overall firepower.

For example: Horrors get Super Blue Mind Flame Magic Blast that does 1 MW with a check of 5 instead of Smite. Then you start opening up Smite itself for a balancing pass. Unfortunately, right now, it's the base psychic power for almost every psyker in the game, adjusting much about it has wide ranging ramifications.

**kurhanik**

Marmatag wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
I mean I'm not saying melee isn't tough but it is a little disingenuous to phrase it that you lost 50 models to 3 (4 actually, assuming RG buffs on all those models) models. Especially when we are talking about 300 points killed by 850+ points. That is honestly a pretty good ratio for points killing points, but not so ridiculous as to be considered OP. The problem is the ability for these things to alpha strike things off the board turn 1 with little recourse. The problem becomes that you are often not making the same kind of dent on your turn.

Well he's not highlighting the core issue you face with Imperial Guard and Chaos - you will lose a LOT of models trying to get into melee - but that's kind of what cheap infantry does, they die - but once you get there, you still have to fight your way through their cheap screens, while still being shot every turn, by dramatically increased firepower.

Also, Guilliman's points in mortar teams will kill an entire unit of boyz or gants per turn on *average*, from 48" away without line of sight and absolutely no buffs. That's roughly equivalent in damage to 3 razorbacks with Guilliman buffs, or almost 700 points in marines. The mortars are actually slightly better.

Guilliman is literally the distraction carnifex IG players use when trying to talk about imbalance.

I got curious and did a bit of math there...Guilliman's points of mortar teams is 11.66 Heavy Weapon Squads, or 11-12 heavy support slots depending if you round up or down. The only way to get that many heavy support slots is if you take 2 Spearhead Detachments(1hq, 3-6 heavy support), even double brigades makes you fall short since they are only 3-5. I suppose if you want to get technical, you'd have to cut off 2 heavy weapons squads to factor in the price of the 2 mandatory HQs you need to take with them to clock in at Guilliman's points.

All that, and you get 33 t3, 2 wound, 5+ save guys, 2 t3, 3 wound 5+ save guys, and 2 command points.

I'm not saying that you can't do a lot with that mind, but you sacrifice a lot of flexibility, command points, and detachment slots for it.

If the rumors for Chapter Approved are true, I would not mind it - mild nerf to Guilliman/Assback, mild buff to many other Space Marine toys, along with much the same in terms of mild nerfs/buffs across all codices, and the balance should get a bit better.

**Slayer-Fan123**

kurhanik wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
I mean I'm not saying melee isn't tough but it is a little disingenuous to phrase it that you lost 50 models to 3 (4 actually, assuming RG buffs on all those models) models. Especially when we are talking about 300 points killed by 850+ points. That is honestly a pretty good ratio for points killing points, but not so ridiculous as to be considered OP. The problem is the ability for these things to alpha strike things off the board turn 1 with little recourse. The problem becomes that you are often not making the same kind of dent on your turn.

Well he's not highlighting the core issue you face with Imperial Guard and Chaos - you will lose a LOT of models trying to get into melee - but that's kind of what cheap infantry does, they die - but once you get there, you still have to fight your way through their cheap screens, while still being shot every turn, by dramatically increased firepower.

Also, Guilliman's points in mortar teams will kill an entire unit of boyz or gants per turn on *average*, from 48" away without line of sight and absolutely no buffs. That's roughly equivalent in damage to 3 razorbacks with Guilliman buffs, or almost 700 points in marines. The mortars are actually slightly better.

Guilliman is literally the distraction carnifex IG players use when trying to talk about imbalance.

I got curious and did a bit of math there...Guilliman's points of mortar teams is 11.66 Heavy Weapon Squads, or 11-12 heavy support slots depending if you round up or down. The only way to get that many heavy support slots is if you take 2 Spearhead Detachments(1hq, 3-6 heavy support), even double brigades makes you fall short since they are only 3-5. I suppose if you want to get technical, you'd have to cut off 2 heavy weapons squads to factor in the price of the 2 mandatory HQs you need to take with them to clock in at Guilliman's points.

All that, and you get 33 t3, 2 wound, 5+ save guys, 2 t3, 3 wound 5+ save guys, and 2 command points.

I'm not saying that you can't do a lot with that mind, but you sacrifice a lot of flexibility, command points, and detachment slots for it.

If the rumors for Chapter Approved are true, I would not mind it - mild nerf to Guilliman/Assback, mild buff to many other Space Marine toys, along with much the same in terms of mild nerfs/buffs across all codices, and the balance should get a bit better.

Rowboat gets you 3 CP and is only one detachment. What flexibility are you losing exactly? It isn't hard to to create a Battalion or Brigade with Guard in the first place.

**Marmatag**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
kurhanik wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
I mean I'm not saying melee isn't tough but it is a little disingenuous to phrase it that you lost 50 models to 3 (4 actually, assuming RG buffs on all those models) models. Especially when we are talking about 300 points killed by 850+ points. That is honestly a pretty good ratio for points killing points, but not so ridiculous as to be considered OP. The problem is the ability for these things to alpha strike things off the board turn 1 with little recourse. The problem becomes that you are often not making the same kind of dent on your turn.

Well he's not highlighting the core issue you face with Imperial Guard and Chaos - you will lose a LOT of models trying to get into melee - but that's kind of what cheap infantry does, they die - but once you get there, you still have to fight your way through their cheap screens, while still being shot every turn, by dramatically increased firepower.

Also, Guilliman's points in mortar teams will kill an entire unit of boyz or gants per turn on *average*, from 48" away without line of sight and absolutely no buffs. That's roughly equivalent in damage to 3 razorbacks with Guilliman buffs, or almost 700 points in marines. The mortars are actually slightly better.

Guilliman is literally the distraction carnifex IG players use when trying to talk about imbalance.

I got curious and did a bit of math there...Guilliman's points of mortar teams is 11.66 Heavy Weapon Squads, or 11-12 heavy support slots depending if you round up or down. The only way to get that many heavy support slots is if you take 2 Spearhead Detachments(1hq, 3-6 heavy support), even double brigades makes you fall short since they are only 3-5. I suppose if you want to get technical, you'd have to cut off 2 heavy weapons squads to factor in the price of the 2 mandatory HQs you need to take with them to clock in at Guilliman's points.

All that, and you get 33 t3, 2 wound, 5+ save guys, 2 t3, 3 wound 5+ save guys, and 2 command points.

I'm not saying that you can't do a lot with that mind, but you sacrifice a lot of flexibility, command points, and detachment slots for it.

If the rumors for Chapter Approved are true, I would not mind it - mild nerf to Guilliman/Assback, mild buff to many other Space Marine toys, along with much the same in terms of mild nerfs/buffs across all codices, and the balance should get a bit better.

Rowboat gets you 3 CP and is only one detachment. What flexibility are you losing exactly? It isn't hard to to create a Battalion or Brigade with Guard in the first place.

Distraction carnifex.

**kurhanik**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
kurhanik wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
I mean I'm not saying melee isn't tough but it is a little disingenuous to phrase it that you lost 50 models to 3 (4 actually, assuming RG buffs on all those models) models. Especially when we are talking about 300 points killed by 850+ points. That is honestly a pretty good ratio for points killing points, but not so ridiculous as to be considered OP. The problem is the ability for these things to alpha strike things off the board turn 1 with little recourse. The problem becomes that you are often not making the same kind of dent on your turn.

Well he's not highlighting the core issue you face with Imperial Guard and Chaos - you will lose a LOT of models trying to get into melee - but that's kind of what cheap infantry does, they die - but once you get there, you still have to fight your way through their cheap screens, while still being shot every turn, by dramatically increased firepower.

Also, Guilliman's points in mortar teams will kill an entire unit of boyz or gants per turn on *average*, from 48" away without line of sight and absolutely no buffs. That's roughly equivalent in damage to 3 razorbacks with Guilliman buffs, or almost 700 points in marines. The mortars are actually slightly better.

Guilliman is literally the distraction carnifex IG players use when trying to talk about imbalance.

I got curious and did a bit of math there...Guilliman's points of mortar teams is 11.66 Heavy Weapon Squads, or 11-12 heavy support slots depending if you round up or down. The only way to get that many heavy support slots is if you take 2 Spearhead Detachments(1hq, 3-6 heavy support), even double brigades makes you fall short since they are only 3-5. I suppose if you want to get technical, you'd have to cut off 2 heavy weapons squads to factor in the price of the 2 mandatory HQs you need to take with them to clock in at Guilliman's points.

All that, and you get 33 t3, 2 wound, 5+ save guys, 2 t3, 3 wound 5+ save guys, and 2 command points.

I'm not saying that you can't do a lot with that mind, but you sacrifice a lot of flexibility, command points, and detachment slots for it.

If the rumors for Chapter Approved are true, I would not mind it - mild nerf to Guilliman/Assback, mild buff to many other Space Marine toys, along with much the same in terms of mild nerfs/buffs across all codices, and the balance should get a bit better.

Rowboat gets you 3 CP and is only one detachment. What flexibility are you losing exactly? It isn't hard to to create a Battalion or Brigade with Guard in the first place.

My point was more of a tangent from the comment - he said that Guilliman's points worth of Mortar Teams was better than Guilliman + 3 Razorbacks. I was just saying that physically the only way to fit 12 Heavy Support slots needed to get that many Mortar Teams requires 2 spearhead detachments. Go look in the core rules - a Battalion is 0-3 slots, and a Brigade is 3-5. If you want 12 Heavy Weapons Squads in your army, you basically NEED to take double Spearhead Detachments. The only other way is one each of a Battalion, Brigade, and Spearhead detachment.

**Marmatag**

You could swap out mortar teams for a whole host of units. Guard is incredibly efficient for their points and they will eliminate hordes without much challenge. Especially T3 6+, and very well at T4 6+.

**Leo_the_Rat**

Marmatag wrote:
And I wouldn't worry about balancing GK with Smite. The army is wall to wall bad. We should not restrict having a balanced 8th because GK are awful.

As a GK player I just want to say, "Thank you so very much." It's nice to know that you don't mind goring a bull so long as it isn't your bull. Seriously, GKs already have a nerfed smite, you may as well just rename it and leave GKs in the same position that they're in now.

**Xenomancers**

kurhanik wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
I mean I'm not saying melee isn't tough but it is a little disingenuous to phrase it that you lost 50 models to 3 (4 actually, assuming RG buffs on all those models) models. Especially when we are talking about 300 points killed by 850+ points. That is honestly a pretty good ratio for points killing points, but not so ridiculous as to be considered OP. The problem is the ability for these things to alpha strike things off the board turn 1 with little recourse. The problem becomes that you are often not making the same kind of dent on your turn.

Well he's not highlighting the core issue you face with Imperial Guard and Chaos - you will lose a LOT of models trying to get into melee - but that's kind of what cheap infantry does, they die - but once you get there, you still have to fight your way through their cheap screens, while still being shot every turn, by dramatically increased firepower.

Also, Guilliman's points in mortar teams will kill an entire unit of boyz or gants per turn on *average*, from 48" away without line of sight and absolutely no buffs. That's roughly equivalent in damage to 3 razorbacks with Guilliman buffs, or almost 700 points in marines. The mortars are actually slightly better.

Guilliman is literally the distraction carnifex IG players use when trying to talk about imbalance.

I got curious and did a bit of math there...Guilliman's points of mortar teams is 11.66 Heavy Weapon Squads, or 11-12 heavy support slots depending if you round up or down. The only way to get that many heavy support slots is if you take 2 Spearhead Detachments(1hq, 3-6 heavy support), even double brigades makes you fall short since they are only 3-5. I suppose if you want to get technical, you'd have to cut off 2 heavy weapons squads to factor in the price of the 2 mandatory HQs you need to take with them to clock in at Guilliman's points.

All that, and you get 33 t3, 2 wound, 5+ save guys, 2 t3, 3 wound 5+ save guys, and 2 command points.

I'm not saying that you can't do a lot with that mind, but you sacrifice a lot of flexibility, command points, and detachment slots for it.

If the rumors for Chapter Approved are true, I would not mind it - mild nerf to Guilliman/Assback, mild buff to many other Space Marine toys, along with much the same in terms of mild nerfs/buffs across all codices, and the balance should get a bit better.

2 Spearheads and a brigade is more command points that most armies could every hope to bring - hard to really call it a sacrifice. The chapter approved leakes will net my full infantry primaris army with Gman 35 an additional points....absolutely game breaking huh? Your typical Gman Assback list is going to be about 90 points more expensive though. We will see what changes will come for Imperial Guard infantry/mortars/manticores/basalisks better all be going up in points is all I am going to say.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

I agree with OP, I have proofs that he is right about the space marine codex being the worst codex.
Look at it like that: the space marine codex is full of stuff about space marine, the most boring and worst faction in 40k. Meanwhile, other codexes are full of cool stuff about cool factions like Tyranids, Adeptus Mechanicus, Orks, Tau, Necrons, Astra Militarum…
Of course the adeptus codex is the worst!

**Melissia**

Well, when you put it that way, it makes perfect sense!

**Galas**

**Melissia**

And yet, in this thread, the ones hating on marines the most are the marine players themselves.

**Galas**

At this point I don't take them serious. I'm here, still paying full price for my Powerfists with my DA! And I don't complain as much! Theres a point of reason about the Space Marines having piss-poor internal balance, but oh... the hyperbole, the repetition. The 40 pages thread about how OP IG is...

**Neophyte2012**

Kap'n Krump wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Horde melee has a hope.

Not really. I ran 120 boyz v. a very tame guilliman list, and 2x assbacks (love that term) and a stormraven killed like 50 boyz turn 1 - and that was with KFF & painboyz. Half my fully buffed army just gone to 3 models.

Melee hordes are honestly pretty awful if your opponent has anything more threatening than bolters. And with things like assbacks, predator LRBTs, those new floating primaris tanks, and mork knows what else, coupled with the useless cover rules, and of course lets not forget falling back, melee hordes aren't exactly top-tier.

And, again, that was a very tame list. I've played against people without guilliman, but 4x assbacks, 2x storm talons and 1x storm raven. I can't deal with 7 twin assault cannons. Just wave goodbye to your army.

No idea how well the dice rolling you two are, but to my calculation, 3 Twin Assault Cannons and 2 sets of hurricane bolters from Razorbacks and 1 Stormraven under the buff of Guiliman VS T4 6++/6+++, only inflict around 31 wounds when in 12 inch range. I know there might be 2 frag missile rounds from the flyer and / or SB from the cars. But I bet that is just far from significant compared to 36 S6 shots and 24 S4 shots. So I believe your opponent had very good luck in dice rolling? I DO jealous him