Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 adamsouza wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

It's very simple, every other army that is not marines gets to apply their army traits to their whole army.

I get that it's a pet peeve for you, and you don't agree with the decision, but that doesn't make it wrong, or even a bad decision. It just makes it something you would have done differently.

I personally think Landraiders, that would be -1 to hit, because of chapter tactics, would have been a disaster.

As much of a disaster as -2 to hit hemlocks, really.

Of course I'm of the opinion that the limitations set on Space Marines was a good idea, and the problem is that other armies don't have these limitations.

 adamsouza wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

It's very simple, every other army that is not marines gets to apply their army traits to their whole army.

I get that it's a pet peeve for you, and you don't agree with the decision, but that doesn't make it wrong, or even a bad decision. It just makes it something you would have done differently.

I personally think Landraiders, that would be -1 to hit, because of chapter tactics, would have been a disaster.

So let me get this straight. The copy and paste army traits that every other army is getting. Those would be OP on space marine tanks?

 Galas wrote:

Come on, admit that my joke was good ^^.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

It's very simple, every other army that is not marines gets to apply their army traits to their whole army.

I get that it's a pet peeve for you, and you don't agree with the decision, but that doesn't make it wrong, or even a bad decision. It just makes it something you would have done differently.

I personally think Landraiders, that would be -1 to hit, because of chapter tactics, would have been a disaster.

So let me get this straight. The copy and paste army traits that every other army is getting. Those would be OP on space marine tanks?

Every other army?

Can my Imperial Guard Leman Russes fall back and shoot now?

EDIT:
In fact, can any Imperial tank?

 adamsouza wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

It's very simple, every other army that is not marines gets to apply their army traits to their whole army.

I get that it's a pet peeve for you, and you don't agree with the decision, but that doesn't make it wrong, or even a bad decision. It just makes it something you would have done differently.

I personally think Landraiders, that would be -1 to hit, because of chapter tactics, would have been a disaster.

Yeah, it would be as bad as a flying tank that transports 12 models, has FNP, damage reduction, and chapter tactics and wargear to make it -2 to hit when it advances. Sounds like a disaster, hey?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I thinnk (based upon what I have read and the summary I recieved) that the main 'problem' with the Marine codex is that it is no longer glaringly overpowered and capable of roflstomping all the other factions into the ground, but is instead now balanced, or at least more in line with the other, once weaker, codexes.
The pervieved weakness comes from Marine armies no longer being able to trample all over equally costed armies of other factions and win without any use of tactics as they could in the past few editions, causing a radical need for a shift in tactics that few Marine players have recognised.

And my codex?

GK? I cant speak too much for them at the moment as I have not seen them in 8th. However my 6h/7th memories of them involve being tabled on turn 2, so.....

Honestly if 6th edition GK tabled you by T2 you've got more issues than you'd think. They were easily one of the biggest losers in 6th/7th, managing to be almost as bad as Blood Angels.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Every other army?

Can my Imperial Guard Leman Russes fall back and shoot now?

EDIT:
In fact, can any Imperial tank?

I can think of one Imperial tank that can fall back and shoot and its in the Space Marine Codex. The Primaris Repulsive I mean Repulsor.

 adamsouza wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

It's very simple, every other army that is not marines gets to apply their army traits to their whole army.

I get that it's a pet peeve for you, and you don't agree with the decision, but that doesn't make it wrong, or even a bad decision. It just makes it something you would have done differently.

I personally think Landraiders, that would be -1 to hit, because of chapter tactics, would have been a disaster.

Because Land Raiders are making lots of rounds. Yep...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

It's very simple, every other army that is not marines gets to apply their army traits to their whole army.

I get that it's a pet peeve for you, and you don't agree with the decision, but that doesn't make it wrong, or even a bad decision. It just makes it something you would have done differently.

I personally think Landraiders, that would be -1 to hit, because of chapter tactics, would have been a disaster.

So let me get this straight. The copy and paste army traits that every other army is getting. Those would be OP on space marine tanks?

Every other army?

Can my Imperial Guard Leman Russes fall back and shoot now?

EDIT:
In fact, can any Imperial tank?

We are talking about chapter tactics on space marine tanks and how they don't have them...but imperial guard tanks do as well as every other armies traits applying to their vehicals. Even your bane blade super-heavies...it would be OP if LR had chapter tactics though...reason being - they are marines.

Yes, they are Space Marines, a traditionally infantry focused army in which the tanks play only a supporting role.

Are you surprised the rules encourage you to bring more infantry and fewer tanks?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, they are Space Marines, a traditionally infantry focused army in which the tanks play only a supporting role.

Are you surprised the rules encourage you to bring more infantry and fewer tanks?

And yet here we are with Eldar tanks benefiting from the Alaitoc trait. Because when I think of Eldar, I think of tanks.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I thinnk (based upon what I have read and the summary I recieved) that the main 'problem' with the Marine codex is that it is no longer glaringly overpowered and capable of roflstomping all the other factions into the ground, but is instead now balanced, or at least more in line with the other, once weaker, codexes.
The pervieved weakness comes from Marine armies no longer being able to trample all over equally costed armies of other factions and win without any use of tactics as they could in the past few editions, causing a radical need for a shift in tactics that few Marine players have recognised.

And my codex?

GK? I cant speak too much for them at the moment as I have not seen them in 8th. However my 6h/7th memories of them involve being tabled on turn 2, so.....

...if the 6th or 7th edition GK tabled you T2, you weren't very good. ESPECIALLY the 6th one. There would literally not be enough units on the GK side to kill the enemy over 2 turns.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, they are Space Marines, a traditionally infantry focused army in which the tanks play only a supporting role.

Are you surprised the rules encourage you to bring more infantry and fewer tanks?

And yet here we are with Eldar tanks benefiting from the Alaitoc trait. Because when I think of Eldar, I think of tanks.

Yeah...that one doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, they are Space Marines, a traditionally infantry focused army in which the tanks play only a supporting role.

Are you surprised the rules encourage you to bring more infantry and fewer tanks?

And yet here we are with Eldar tanks benefiting from the Alaitoc trait. Because when I think of Eldar, I think of tanks.

Yeah...that one doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

On top of the fact all their vehicles get the FNP equivalent if they want it but IRON HANDS did not really stings if you're an Iron Hands player and/or fan.

Count up the number of units in the space marine book that get chapter tactics, then count the number of units in other armies entire codexes.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Count up the number of units in the space marine book that get chapter tactics, then count the number of units in other armies entire codexes.

I'm not comfortable with that comparison. Space marines get more plastic kits (for let's say god knows why), therefore in a game we should compare the amount of rules that apply per kit? Are we playing a game or a spending competition?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Count up the number of units in the space marine book that get chapter tactics, then count the number of units in other armies entire codexes.

Well not counting FW (because we already know they love making things for Marines) and unique characters, I know all 40+ unit entries for the Tyranids benefit from their Hive Fleet rules (with their Special Characters being able to be taken by any fleet to boot and benefit, so are they really special or a generic 0-1? I dunno), and that all 35ish units of Eldar benefit. Then 100% of AdMech benefit (but of course they're a smallish army as they're new) and have probably near 20 units total. I don't have any idea Guard off the top of my head.

For Grey Knights they have 16 units that benefit as they're generic infantry or characters, and they have 8 vehicles that don't benefit. For Chaos Marines we got 25 units that benefit and 8 vehicles that don't. For Loyalist Scum we got almost 40 units that benefit (though do note all the Primaris stuff bumped this up considerably), and then maybe 13-15 vehicles that don't benefit.

So I don't see what your point is.

SM lists with no guiliiman and just a few razorbackas (2-3) are actually more than decent. They can win against the majority of the current factions.

Of course if we're talking about tournament levels they wouldn't be competitive but most of those lists are not common even in semi-competitive metas. I've seen a list with the spam of malefic lords, cultists and obliterators, that's not even 40k IMHO. Not to mention the "stormravens only" list that was legal a while ago.

A SM list without the razorback spam and guilliman would still be superior compared to lists made with 70% or more of the GW catalogue.

I for one hope that Chapter Approved adds a note to include Chapter Tactics/Legion Traits to their codices vehicles. For those worried it might be too overpowered, its possible (though admittedly not likely) that GW would do what they did with Guard, and have an Infantry and a Vehicle Tactic. For example, maybe Ravenguard vehicles all considered to be camouflaged, and automatically get cover (like the Tyranid fleet) instead of the -1 to hit rule. Or Iron Hands could get the Valhallan vehicle trait, etc.

At this point, with only a nerf to Razorbacks you can probably just go ahead and say "Marines get Chapter Tactics on everything" and leave it at that. Yeah, -2 to hit on the flyers is rough, but apparently this is fine now given Alatoic. It's possible that this was a design goal -- they wanted to push fast, hard to hit things with Eldar because that's the faction identity -- but at the very least you could say "all Marine stuff other than flyers gets Tactics" and I don't see where anyone would have much reason to complain.

None of the other Tactics are strikingly more powerful on vehicles than they already are on existing units. You can use a FW Dreadnought instead of a Predator as-is.

I'm quite enjoying the Chapter Tactics personally, it's forcing me to take a lot of dreadnoughts instead of tanks. And dreadnoughts are very cool.

 Blackie wrote:
SM lists with no guiliiman and just a few razorbackas (2-3) are actually more than decent. They can win against the majority of the current factions.

Of course if we're talking about tournament levels they wouldn't be competitive

And here we have the issue. If you're not interested in trying to make everything a good choice because everything works in a non-competiitve area, there is little point to the Tactics and Proposed Rules Subforums.

Just because they did something with another army is not a justification to do it with Space Marines. It's just not. You might as well argue why Space Marines don't get mob rule, or first rank rank, second rank, fire.

Nah, Marines need CTs on their vehicles. Chapter Approved would be the perfect opportunity to approve chapters for everyone imo. If something or another has problematic balance it can be nerfed, ie stormravens or assbacks, but a book where you're already dropping a balance pass on everything is the perfect space to do that. More army variance makes the game more interesting.

SM tanks falling back and hitting on 5s with their big rectangular easy to surround chassis - man am I spooked.

 adamsouza wrote:
Just because they did something with another army is not a justification to do it with Space Marines. It's just not. You might as well argue why Space Marines don't get mob rule, or first rank rank, second rank, fire.

That's not the same thing at all and I'm sure you are quite aware of that.

One of those is a unit specific mechanic that applies to a certain type of unit(Mob Rule) and the other is an army-wide special rule like ATSKNF. What's being discussed at the moment is the army-specific rules that are tied to your specific choice of theme.

It really does seem that the Chapter Tactics/Legion traits should be expanded to include vehicles or altered to include a vehicle specific bit.

 adamsouza wrote:
Just because they did something with another army is not a justification to do it with Space Marines. It's just not. You might as well argue why Space Marines don't get mob rule, or first rank rank, second rank, fire.

Sure, but what's the reason to not give Predators Chapter Tactics? You can already take a Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with Tactics. The argument in favor seems really easy to make: Chapter Tactics are fun.

I feel like there's just one real argument against, which is that some of the Tactics are way better than others when applied to most vehicles such that some Chapters would get inferior vehicles. Like, you're just not charging or advancing with any vehicles other than maybe Dreadnoughts, so White Scars and Black Templars get screwed. But this is only two Chapters, and they kind of got screwed on everything else too -- in this and every other codex, GW obviously does not care very much about making sure that all of the subfactions are equally viable. The only really extreme case is flyers, for which the Raven Guard Tactic is a no-brainer. It seems like it'd be preferable to not give flyers Tactics and instead make sure that they're good-but-not-too-good with point adjustments alone. It's obviously a problem in the new Eldar codex that every flyer wing is going to be Alatoic, and either Alatoic flyers are too good or non-Alatoic flyers aren't good enough.

Didn't anyone suppose that right now the SM vehicles could be costed with no CTs in mind?
If things are not as good as other factions (and i wouldn't be so sure) then chapter approved will fix that by switching some points around, but i don't think that you can honestly say that things don't work because you have a restriction that SOME other factions don't get. That's in the design of the faction, if not i want my reroll auras on the 'nids!

Dionysodorus wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Just because they did something with another army is not a justification to do it with Space Marines. It's just not. You might as well argue why Space Marines don't get mob rule, or first rank rank, second rank, fire.

Sure, but what's the reason to not give Predators Chapter Tactics? You can already take a Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with Tactics. The argument in favor seems really easy to make: Chapter Tactics are fun.

I feel like there's just one real argument against, which is that some of the Tactics are way better than others when applied to most vehicles such that some Chapters would get inferior vehicles. Like, you're just not charging or advancing with any vehicles other than maybe Dreadnoughts, so White Scars and Black Templars get screwed. But this is only two Chapters, and they kind of got screwed on everything else too -- in this and every other codex, GW obviously does not care very much about making sure that all of the subfactions are equally viable. The only really extreme case is flyers, for which the Raven Guard Tactic is a no-brainer. It seems like it'd be preferable to not give flyers Tactics and instead make sure that they're good-but-not-too-good with point adjustments alone. It's obviously a problem in the new Eldar codex that every flyer wing is going to be Alatoic, and either Alatoic flyers are too good or non-Alatoic flyers aren't good enough.

And that's where the doubled up stuff would have been ideal. Alaitoc's "-1 to Hit" should not have been across the board, but rather it should have been on Infantry and War Walkers while another portion of it allowed for Vehicles to move and fire heavy weapons with no penalties to emphasize the "ambush" nature of Alaitoc's forces. It lets them double dip on benefits for War Walkers but it keeps us from having crap like -1 to Hit Wraithknights or Hemlocks.

I could see, for Raven Guard vehicles, something akin to the Cadian Stratagem of "Overlapping Fields of Fire" where you get +1 to Hit against a target that's been shot by a Cadian unit. If a Raven Guard vehicle hits a target that a Raven Guard infantry unit has already shot? +1 to Hit. Raven Guard infantry hits a unit that a Raven Guard Predator shot? +1 to Hit.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Just because they did something with another army is not a justification to do it with Space Marines. It's just not. You might as well argue why Space Marines don't get mob rule, or first rank rank, second rank, fire.

Sure, but what's the reason to not give Predators Chapter Tactics? You can already take a Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with Tactics. The argument in favor seems really easy to make: Chapter Tactics are fun.

I feel like there's just one real argument against, which is that some of the Tactics are way better than others when applied to most vehicles such that some Chapters would get inferior vehicles. Like, you're just not charging or advancing with any vehicles other than maybe Dreadnoughts, so White Scars and Black Templars get screwed. But this is only two Chapters, and they kind of got screwed on everything else too -- in this and every other codex, GW obviously does not care very much about making sure that all of the subfactions are equally viable. The only really extreme case is flyers, for which the Raven Guard Tactic is a no-brainer. It seems like it'd be preferable to not give flyers Tactics and instead make sure that they're good-but-not-too-good with point adjustments alone. It's obviously a problem in the new Eldar codex that every flyer wing is going to be Alatoic, and either Alatoic flyers are too good or non-Alatoic flyers aren't good enough.

yeah I agree - really though - things like that could have be fixed in the writing. -1 to hit doesn't stack with other -1 to hit modifers (written into the rule). Kind of like they did with ulthwe and their 6+++ not stacking with other 6+++.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I thinnk (based upon what I have read and the summary I recieved) that the main 'problem' with the Marine codex is that it is no longer glaringly overpowered and capable of roflstomping all the other factions into the ground, but is instead now balanced, or at least more in line with the other, once weaker, codexes.
The pervieved weakness comes from Marine armies no longer being able to trample all over equally costed armies of other factions and win without any use of tactics as they could in the past few editions, causing a radical need for a shift in tactics that few Marine players have recognised.

And my codex?

GK? I cant speak too much for them at the moment as I have not seen them in 8th. However my 6h/7th memories of them involve being tabled on turn 2, so.....

Honestly if 6th edition GK tabled you by T2 you've got more issues than you'd think. They were easily one of the biggest losers in 6th/7th, managing to be almost as bad as Blood Angels.

It might have been T3 now that I think about it, it was a few years back now. All I remember is that he had that deepstriking formation and that he dropped onto my side, negated my range advantage and destroyed my right flank. Guard being what it was I didnt have the mobility to redeploy and bring my guns to bare and he just rolled me up.

Xenomancers wrote:
We are talking about chapter tactics on space marine tanks and how they don't have them...but imperial guard tanks do as well as every other armies traits applying to their vehicals. Even your bane blade super-heavies...it would be OP if LR had chapter tactics though...reason being - they are marines.

Perhaps this is because Tanks in the Guard are an integral part of the army whereas Tanks in the Marine's are a small part of the force that is delegated to the support roll in what is a highly elite mainly infantry army of special forces.