Proof that space marine codex is the worst.

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**Blackie**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Blackie wrote:
SM lists with no guiliiman and just a few razorbackas (2-3) are actually more than decent. They can win against the majority of the current factions.

Of course if we're talking about tournament levels they wouldn't be competitive

And here we have the issue. If you're not interested in trying to make everything a good choice because everything works in a non-competiitve area, there is little point to the Tactics and Proposed Rules Subforums.

IMHO it's the exact opposite. Tournament lists are so broken that you don't need any tactics or ability to play with them. Usually they are a spam of a few units which do the same things every game regardless of the opponent.

Playing with a good (but not invincible) list requires skills and tactics, playing with completely casual lists require even more tactics since it's not easy to win using units that have issues or need experience. Metas are not only competitive or not competitive, there are infinite shades between the two opposites. On average two balanced casual lists require way more skills and tactics than tournament-winning lists.

My fix to make the game more balanced would be about nerfing all the best stuff, but also banning some superheroes and LoWs from mid sized games or maybe just making them very expensive points wise.

**Dionysodorus**

sennacherib wrote:
They have been utter trash for year's with the exception of oblits. Chaos can finally field an aarmy that isn't just cultists and heldrake or double lash prince. I'm happy that our codex isn't firmly at the bottom tier where its been for 5 years. I'm not the one who's complaining.

Making traits benefit vehicles just screws other factions since lots of legion traits do nothing for vehicles. If you want every thing to be fair and equal you have to rewrite every thing so everyone gets a benefit not just the emperors lapdog s. But I guess if every thing got rewritten just to benefit marines and screw everyone else that would just be a return to what has been the norm for years.

I'm having a hard time following this. Lots of the Legion Traits would be good on stuff that doesn't currently get them, or at least as good as they already are on infantry and bikes and helbrutes. The really bad ones are Black Legion and Word Bearers, but these are pretty bad even on infantry. There are some CC traits -- Renegades, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children -- and these work just as well for CC-oriented vehicles as for CC-oriented anything else. These are good for all of the daemon engines, and you'd get something out of the Renegades trait on Rhinos even. And then Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion work just fine on vehicles.

**kombatwombat**

Insectum7 wrote:Marines are marines first. Marine tanks are crewed by troops of the line, and acting as a crewman is secondary to their role as infantryman. IG tanks are crewed by dedicated crewmen, Eldar vehicles are piloted by dedicated crewmen. Its not ridiculous that vehicles wouldn't benefit from CTs, as its not their pilots primary role.

Marines can be hundreds, or in rare cases literally thousands of years old. And they do nothing but go to war and travel between war. They don’t do holding ground or garrison duty. They fight, they go to the next fight, they fight. And so on.

Consider this: that troop of the line who’s done a bit of a stint behind the wheel in an Astartes tank? It’s entirely possible he’s logged more hours behind that wheel in battle than the seasoned Imperial Guard tank commander has logged breathing.

sennacherib wrote:ImAgine how you would feel if your identicle land raider only had room inside for ten marines instead of twelve. Oh the nashing of teeth and ringing of hands. Or god forbid your entire codex just vanished the way the daemonkin did. Whoa. Light up your tiki torches and march on GW.

I play Black Templars.

My Land Raider has six extra troop spots. For that, it gave up four lascannons, which are currently amazing, that it can fire at full effect on the move. Instead it gets a bundle of bolters. The weapons aren’t exactly a fair trade, so the ability to drop a couple of extra warm bodies in there to pick up the slack is that much of a stretch?

Your Codex Daemonkin existed for what, half of the shortest / second shortest edition on record? And you’re bitter? We were the posted boys of third, and had our own Codex for two editions, and have been wallowing as a bit-part in a different army for three editions since. If you play Squats, you may moan to me about losing your Codex. Otherwise, buck up.

I say wallowing because we Templars are a Chapter based around Assault... in a Codex based around shooting. We will always be the bottom of the pile. Add on to that we can’t even use Guilliman, the one thing that makes Marines truly competitive. (Without allying in another Codex, but at that point, why not just keep allying in Guard... until you have 2000 points of Guard?)

And you know what? I have fun with my little zealot murder band.

The piteous whine of the faithless will find no welcome on these zealous ears.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Insectum7 wrote:
Galas wrote:

Space Marine Tanks, that are driven by TECHMARINES

Source, because I have sources that say otherwise. Edit: apparently thats true now, and explicitly stated in the 8e book. Prior versions have stated that vehicles are driven by members of the reserve companies, and the new codex aknowledges this history by saying that they still crew vehicles as well. Interesting. Note that not all vehicles are necessarily piloted by Techmarines, although there is now a pool of Techmarine pilots to draw from.

Not convinced that should mean they should get chapter tactics though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. There aren't because they fight as a more cohesive force.

Daemon engines going to battle with a chaos warband 'cohesive'? Nooo... Chaos warbands are not known for being stable institutions.

However they fight against the Imperium in an organized fashion and therefore it seems mildly off that a Maulerfiend in a World Eaters force isn't getting an extra attack on the charge and that Iron Warriors Vindicator gets no damage bonus towards buildings. Your excuse is bad and you should feel bad.

So Iron Hands marines should get Ultramarines tactics when theyre fighting together? Is that your reasoning? "Fighting together"?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
However there are plenty of examples of Chapters that like tanks more than anything, like the freaking Iron Hands or Aurora Chapter, and obviously had ways of representing this last edition.
Having just an all tank regiment means literally nothing. If anything, that would more support that only one or the other should get access to Regiment bonuses if they're both in the same army. Or you can accept everyone fights together all the time, and that an Imperial Fist or Iron Warrior in a Predator suddenly forgot how to ignore cover.

Marines are marines first. Marine tanks are crewed by troops of the line, and acting as a crewman is secondary to their role as infantryman. IG tanks are crewed by dedicated crewmen, Eldar vehicles are piloted by dedicated crewmen. Its not ridiculous that vehicles wouldn't benefit from CTs, as its not their pilots primary role.

Iron hand bonuses could be an exception, as they were last edition, Salamanders potentially too, but those are more technological bonusses rather than infantry training/disposition.

So under that logic a REALLY new Marine like a Scout who hasn't really received any training shouldn't have Chapter Tactics, correct?

Scouts are well trained and under the guidance of a veteran. Works for me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galas wrote:

Chaos and Loyal Marines not having Chapter Tactics in their vehicles was a good thing. The problem is the rest have them. So GW can do two things:
-Remove the bonuses from the rest (I doubt that)
-Give the bonuses to Marines. (More probably)

Why do marines need what other armies get? Why don't other armies need what marines get?

**the_scotsman**

sennacherib wrote:
They have been utter trash for year's with the exception of oblits. Chaos can finally field an aarmy that isn't just cultists and heldrake or double lash prince. I'm happy that our codex isn't firmly at the bottom tier where its been for 5 years. I'm not the one who's complaining.

Making traits benefit vehicles just screws other factions since lots of legion traits do nothing for vehicles. If you want every thing to be fair and equal you have to rewrite every thing so everyone gets a benefit not just the emperors lapdog s. But I guess if every thing got rewritten just to benefit marines and screw everyone else that would just be a return to what has been the norm for years.

There are just as many loyalist traits that would be worthless on vehicles. More, actually. What SM vehicle that is not a dreadnought needs the ability to Advance and Charge, or Reroll Charges? If you're CSMs, the World Eater/Emperors Children/Renegade Traits at least help Maulerfiends/Heldrakes/Defilers etc.

What legion trait do you think is useless on CSM vehicles?

**Slayer-Fan123**

the_scotsman wrote:
sennacherib wrote:
They have been utter trash for year's with the exception of oblits. Chaos can finally field an aarmy that isn't just cultists and heldrake or double lash prince. I'm happy that our codex isn't firmly at the bottom tier where its been for 5 years. I'm not the one who's complaining.

Making traits benefit vehicles just screws other factions since lots of legion traits do nothing for vehicles. If you want every thing to be fair and equal you have to rewrite every thing so everyone gets a benefit not just the emperors lapdog s. But I guess if every thing got rewritten just to benefit marines and screw everyone else that would just be a return to what has been the norm for years.

There are just as many loyalist traits that would be worthless on vehicles. More, actually. What SM vehicle that is not a dreadnought needs the ability to Advance and Charge, or Reroll Charges? If you're CSMs, the World Eater/Emperors Children/Renegade Traits at least help Maulerfiends/Heldrakes/Defilers etc.

What legion trait do you think is useless on CSM vehicles?

The Word Bearers one, but one can argue how meh that one is in the first place so I dunno if it's really something that should be in this discussion.
Black Legion also has mildly limited use outside of Rhinos that have multiple Combi-Bolters but it would still be useful. Sorta. Kinda.

**Galas**

I believe the IG way of doing "Tactics" was the best one. Two different bonuses in the same "Tactic", one for infantry and other for vehicles.

Everyone should be like that. Maybe not Tyranids because they don't have vehicles so they don't really need that, but in some cases it makes them worthless for some units (Like the Hydra Fleet Trait that is worthless for single entity monsters)

**master of ordinance**

kombatwombat wrote:(Without allying in another Codex, but at that point, why not just keep allying in Guard... until you have 2000 points of Guard?)

Funny thing, over the last editions the one thing Marine players would tell Guard players was "ally in Marine units" and do you know what we said? That we might as well just make a Marine army at that point because Marines did everything we did but better. In other words the exact same thing your saying. We where laughed at and told to grow up and stop whining. So, now that the situation is reversed what should this Guard player do?

Insectum7 wrote:

Chaos and Loyal Marines not having Chapter Tactics in their vehicles was a good thing. The problem is the rest have them. So GW can do two things:
-Remove the bonuses from the rest (I doubt that)
-Give the bonuses to Marines. (More probably)

Or how about no? How about (for once) other non-Eldar factions get something that Marines dont.

GW Page wrote:Antaro Chronus is the most gifted of all the Ultramarines tank commanders. While most such warriors dedicate themselves to mastery of a particular vehicle, Chronus' abilities extend to almost any tank in the armoury of the Adeptus Astartes. Few other commanders can match the precision of his bombardments when at the helm of a Whirlwind or Vindicator. No living man can hope to be as coldly precise when unleashing the baleful weaponry of a mighty Predator.

Chronus is a perfect example of why the Ultramarines are massive mary sues and should never be used as an example. He is quite literally "Teh best tankz commanda Pask buuuttt hes +1!" and should never have been introduced, or at least not on such a gargantuan sueish level.

Insectum7 wrote:

Marines are marines first. Marine tanks are crewed by troops of the line, and acting as a crewman is secondary to their role as infantryman. IG tanks are crewed by dedicated crewmen, Eldar vehicles are piloted by dedicated crewmen. Its not ridiculous that vehicles wouldn't benefit from CTs, as its not their pilots primary role.

Exactly this. Infantry with a little experience will never be as good as dedicated vehicle crews when it comes to operating their vehicle.

@all those calling me bad because I lost to GK
The game was a long time ago and I have forgotten a lot of what happened and what my opponent had (some awsome things remain though, such as my dual demonblade inquisitor duelling a Dreadknight - that was Turn 2 so it must have been a turn 3 tabling), but I lost. I was out played. No I did not have Earthshakers, and if I did then they would have been too close to fire anyway. Did I lose? Yes. Does that make me a bad player? No. So stop treating one game as though it where evidence enough to discount everything I say and get on with the topic at hand.

**Galas**

I use the Chronus quote not to talk about Chronus, but I did put in bold letters the part that was interesting. Chronus is the best tank commander, yes. But that means THERES Space Marine Tank Commanders. It is written how Space Marine pilots dedicate themselves to master one particular vehicle.
So to say that space marine vehicles have a generic crewmen composed of infantrymen just isn't true.

And yeah, the "Why don't others receive something that Marines don't" is just BS vendetta and hate towards marines. Is game design inconsistence, it doesn't make any sense and it makes the game worse.
I have always said that Chapter Tactics should be something that everyone has. Now everyone has them. GW did a good job with that, making the game more fair to everyone. It doesn't make sense to be unfair in the implementation of Regiment/Legion/Craftworld/Chapter tactics just because "But I really Hate Marines!"

But I'll make the wise thing and abandon this thread. I have no time to arguee with people that just want to hate marines for being marines and ignore the fluff once it doesn't support what they are saying, even after his put here for them to read it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

master of ordinance wrote:
kombatwombat wrote:(Without allying in another Codex, but at that point, why not just keep allying in Guard... until you have 2000 points of Guard?)

Funny thing, over the last editions the one thing Marine players would tell Guard players was "ally in Marine units" and do you know what we said? That we might as well just make a Marine army at that point because Marines did everything we did but better. In other words the exact same thing your saying. We where laughed at and told to grow up and stop whining. So, now that the situation is reversed what should this Guard player do?

Insectum7 wrote:

Chaos and Loyal Marines not having Chapter Tactics in their vehicles was a good thing. The problem is the rest have them. So GW can do two things:
-Remove the bonuses from the rest (I doubt that)
-Give the bonuses to Marines. (More probably)

Or how about no? How about (for once) other non-Eldar factions get something that Marines dont.

GW Page wrote:Antaro Chronus is the most gifted of all the Ultramarines tank commanders. While most such warriors dedicate themselves to mastery of a particular vehicle, Chronus' abilities extend to almost any tank in the armoury of the Adeptus Astartes. Few other commanders can match the precision of his bombardments when at the helm of a Whirlwind or Vindicator. No living man can hope to be as coldly precise when unleashing the baleful weaponry of a mighty Predator.

Chronus is a perfect example of why the Ultramarines are massive mary sues and should never be used as an example. He is quite literally "Teh best tankz commanda Pask buuuttt hes +1!" and should never have been introduced, or at least not on such a gargantuan sueish level.

Insectum7 wrote:

Marines are marines first. Marine tanks are crewed by troops of the line, and acting as a crewman is secondary to their role as infantryman. IG tanks are crewed by dedicated crewmen, Eldar vehicles are piloted by dedicated crewmen. Its not ridiculous that vehicles wouldn't benefit from CTs, as its not their pilots primary role.

Exactly this. Infantry with a little experience will never be as good as dedicated vehicle crews when it comes to operating their vehicle.

@all those calling me bad because I lost to GK
The game was a long time ago and I have forgotten a lot of what happened and what my opponent had (some awsome things remain though, such as my dual demonblade inquisitor duelling a Dreadknight - that was Turn 2 so it must have been a turn 3 tabling), but I lost. I was out played. No I did not have Earthshakers, and if I did then they would have been too close to fire anyway. Did I lose? Yes. Does that make me a bad player? No. So stop treating one game as though it where evidence enough to discount everything I say and get on with the topic at hand.

1. Literally nobody here told you to ally in Marine units, and in fact we gave you ways to beef up your list against the dreaded Tactical Marine. You just refused to take that advice.
2. Because consistency is key.
3. Now you're just showing your hate for Marines with the Chronus bit. This shows you're biased and don't actually care about balance, but you proved that anyway with a previous post when you said you were glad Index Guard were broken.
4. We proves Insectum wrong on all fluff accounts. So that isn't allowed to be your supposed justification.
5. You're a bad player because you were tabled by a GK list by Turn 3. That would've been a story told at a tournament for years if it had happened there.

**Scott-S6**

master of ordinance wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:
Chaos and Loyal Marines not having Chapter Tactics in their vehicles was a good thing. The problem is the rest have them. So GW can do two things:
-Remove the bonuses from the rest (I doubt that)
-Give the bonuses to Marines. (More probably)

Or how about no? How about (for once) other non-Eldar factions get something that Marines dont.

I'm okay with Marines getting chapter tactics on their vehicles because the same logic gets us regimental tactics on Guard aircraft (which I definitely want).

**Insectum7**

Galas wrote:
I use the Chronus quote not to talk about Chronus, but I did put in bold letters the part that was interesting. Chronus is the best tank commander, yes. But that means THERES Space Marine Tank Commanders. It is written how Space Marine pilots dedicate themselves to master one particular vehicle.
So to say that space marine vehicles have a generic crewmen composed of infantrymen just isn't true.

And yeah, the "Why don't others receive something that Marines don't" is just BS vendetta and hate towards marines. Is game design inconsistence, it doesn't make any sense and it makes the game worse.
I have always said that Chapter Tactics should be something that everyone has. Now everyone has them. GW did a good job with that, making the game more fair to everyone. It doesn't make sense to be unfair in the implementation of Regiment/Legion/Craftworld/Chapter tactics just because "But I really Hate Marines!"

But I'll make the wise thing and abandon this thread. I have no time to arguee with people that just want to hate marines for being marines and ignore the fluff once it doesn't support what they are saying, even after his put here for them to read it.

Its not about hating marines. I freaking love marines, they've been my primary army for more than 2 decades now.

Its about hating whiny marine players who can't stand that another faction might have access to something that marines don't. Marines already get more than everybody else. 'Balance' does not mean "Give the faction with the most even more."

**Galas**

The hate part was for Master of Ordinance but at this point I should just put him on ignore.

And I can understand the fact that marines are spoiled with choices. But this is not about giving them something they don't deserve. Is about having a consistent design phylosophy behind the game.

You know, everybody is talking about this in the light of loyalist. But what about Chaos? Have they become hateable now too? Do we hate Chaos Marines? Shouldn't they receive Legion Traits in their vehicles because they have a very big army list full of fugly and old models? Is everyone ok with Chaos Space Marines being screw over for having their Codex being the second one released in 8th?
I suppose now that chaos is receiving their own codex for their bigger legions they'll become has hated as loyalist marines?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Insectum7 wrote:
Galas wrote:
I use the Chronus quote not to talk about Chronus, but I did put in bold letters the part that was interesting. Chronus is the best tank commander, yes. But that means THERES Space Marine Tank Commanders. It is written how Space Marine pilots dedicate themselves to master one particular vehicle.
So to say that space marine vehicles have a generic crewmen composed of infantrymen just isn't true.

And yeah, the "Why don't others receive something that Marines don't" is just BS vendetta and hate towards marines. Is game design inconsistence, it doesn't make any sense and it makes the game worse.
I have always said that Chapter Tactics should be something that everyone has. Now everyone has them. GW did a good job with that, making the game more fair to everyone. It doesn't make sense to be unfair in the implementation of Regiment/Legion/Craftworld/Chapter tactics just because "But I really Hate Marines!"

But I'll make the wise thing and abandon this thread. I have no time to arguee with people that just want to hate marines for being marines and ignore the fluff once it doesn't support what they are saying, even after his put here for them to read it.

Its not about hating marines. I freaking love marines, they've been my primary army for more than 2 decades now.

Its about hating whiny marine players who can't stand that another faction might have access to something that marines don't. Marines already get more than everybody else. 'Balance' does not mean "Give the faction with the most even more."

Having a bigger model line isn't an excuse. Sorry.

**Martel732**

Marines have lots of false choices.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Galas wrote:
The hate part was for Master of Ordinance but at this point I should just put him on ignore.

And I can understand the fact that marines are spoiled with choices. But this is not about giving them something they don't deserve. Is about having a consistent design phylosophy behind the game.

You know, everybody is talking about this in the light of loyalist. But what about Chaos? Have they become hateable now too? Do we hate Chaos Marines? Shouldn't they receive Legion Traits in their vehicles because they have a very big army list full of fugly and old models? Is everyone ok with Chaos Space Marines being screw over for having their Codex being the second one released in 8th?
I suppose now that chaos is receiving their own codex for their bigger legions they'll become has hated as loyalist marines?

I've been arguing for Chaos Marines ala Iron Warriors as my example but for the most part it wasn't seen for whatever reason.

**Insectum7**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Galas wrote:
I use the Chronus quote not to talk about Chronus, but I did put in bold letters the part that was interesting. Chronus is the best tank commander, yes. But that means THERES Space Marine Tank Commanders. It is written how Space Marine pilots dedicate themselves to master one particular vehicle.
So to say that space marine vehicles have a generic crewmen composed of infantrymen just isn't true.

And yeah, the "Why don't others receive something that Marines don't" is just BS vendetta and hate towards marines. Is game design inconsistence, it doesn't make any sense and it makes the game worse.
I have always said that Chapter Tactics should be something that everyone has. Now everyone has them. GW did a good job with that, making the game more fair to everyone. It doesn't make sense to be unfair in the implementation of Regiment/Legion/Craftworld/Chapter tactics just because "But I really Hate Marines!"

But I'll make the wise thing and abandon this thread. I have no time to arguee with people that just want to hate marines for being marines and ignore the fluff once it doesn't support what they are saying, even after his put here for them to read it.

Its not about hating marines. I freaking love marines, they've been my primary army for more than 2 decades now.

Its about hating whiny marine players who can't stand that another faction might have access to something that marines don't. Marines already get more than everybody else. 'Balance' does not mean "Give the faction with the most even more."

Having a bigger model line isn't an excuse. Sorry.

Models are not the issue. Marines have more options, period. This is like Xenomancers "name a unit [comparable] to Dark Reapers" and the marine book arguably has 3-4 depending on what you're after. More options is not something to ignore if you're arguing for 'balance.'

**kurhanik**

Galas wrote:
I believe the IG way of doing "Tactics" was the best one. Two different bonuses in the same "Tactic", one for infantry and other for vehicles.

Everyone should be like that. Maybe not Tyranids because they don't have vehicles so they don't really need that, but in some cases it makes them worthless for some units (Like the Hydra Fleet Trait that is worthless for single entity monsters)

I agree with this here - some Space Marine / Chaos Space Marine tactics/traits would work fine on both infantry and vehicles, but some would just be lackluster. Hopefully if Chapter Approved gives them their traits on vehicles, GW looks into it and finds some fluffy things for vehicles, with maybe an exception for Dreadnoughts and Hellbrutes.

If anything is somehow horribly unfluffy or terribly balanced if it gets a trait, we already have examples of units that are singled out as not getting a trait - Guard's Auxilia and I believe one or two Eldar units. Though I'd personally rather most things (barring stacking -1 to hit fliers) get a trait.

**sennacherib**

Marines have 300+ choices. This gives them more tactical flexibility. Want anti psycher. Ally in your choice of sisters of scilence, assassin etc. want air power, pick from the plethora available. If you don’t see how having THE most choices is a serious advantage then your just arguing blind.

As for chaos, we are just glad to have a half way decent book despite it taking five years. To make it workable we play it as a soup and we are not complaining that we didn’t get all the spcial rules. Seriously, 19 pages of whining. Get a grip. Be happy your army is not bottom tier despite all the whining otherwise.

As for loosing 3rd turn to grey knights. It’s happened to me in a tournament. I was running Khorne daemonkin. He had 5 dreadknights and a bunch of paladins. He wasted me. Could I have done better gains this army. No. Could anyone else in that particular match up. No. Agreeably he was playing a perfect counter to my codex since I had lots of daemons but that happens. Wanna talk bottom tier, GK are reputed to have it worse than the whining space marines.

Seriously, do you loose every game?
Do you not enjoy the hobby anymore because your not the best of the best.
Do you cry yourself to sleep?

Just ally in units like you always do from the vast number of possible units imperials have to fill any gap in one codex or another and call it good. Or sit back and enjoy the army you do have and the fact that you have a great range with middle tier rules and a few tournament builds. Jeez.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Galas wrote:
I use the Chronus quote not to talk about Chronus, but I did put in bold letters the part that was interesting. Chronus is the best tank commander, yes. But that means THERES Space Marine Tank Commanders. It is written how Space Marine pilots dedicate themselves to master one particular vehicle.
So to say that space marine vehicles have a generic crewmen composed of infantrymen just isn't true.

And yeah, the "Why don't others receive something that Marines don't" is just BS vendetta and hate towards marines. Is game design inconsistence, it doesn't make any sense and it makes the game worse.
I have always said that Chapter Tactics should be something that everyone has. Now everyone has them. GW did a good job with that, making the game more fair to everyone. It doesn't make sense to be unfair in the implementation of Regiment/Legion/Craftworld/Chapter tactics just because "But I really Hate Marines!"

But I'll make the wise thing and abandon this thread. I have no time to arguee with people that just want to hate marines for being marines and ignore the fluff once it doesn't support what they are saying, even after his put here for them to read it.

Its not about hating marines. I freaking love marines, they've been my primary army for more than 2 decades now.

Its about hating whiny marine players who can't stand that another faction might have access to something that marines don't. Marines already get more than everybody else. 'Balance' does not mean "Give the faction with the most even more."

Having a bigger model line isn't an excuse. Sorry.

Models are not the issue. Marines have more options, period. This is like Xenomancers "name a unit [comparable] to Dark Reapers" and the marine book arguably has 3-4 depending on what you're after. More options is not something to ignore if you're arguing for 'balance.'

So only one of those units should get Chapter Tactics then?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sennacherib wrote:
Marines have 300+ choices. This gives them more tactical flexibility. Want anti psycher. Ally in your choice of sisters of scilence, assassin etc. want air power, pick from the plethora available. If you don’t see how having THE most choices is a serious advantage then your just arguing blind.

As for chaos, we are just glad to have a half way decent book despite it taking five years. To make it workable we play it as a soup and we are not complaining that we didn’t get all the spcial rules. Seriously, 19 pages of whining. Get a grip. Be happy your army is not bottom tier despite all the whining otherwise.

As for loosing 3rd turn to grey knights. It’s happened to me in a tournament. I was running Khorne daemonkin. He had 5 dreadknights and a bunch of paladins. He wasted me. Could I have done better gains this army. No. Could anyone else in that particular match up. No. Agreeably he was playing a perfect counter to my codex since I had lots of daemons but that happens. Wanna talk bottom tier, GK are reputed to have it worse than the whining space marines.

Seriously, do you loose every game?
Do you not enjoy the hobby anymore because your not the best of the best.
Do you cry yourself to sleep?

Just ally in units like you always do from the vast number of possible units imperials have to fill any gap in one codex or another and call it good. Or sit back and enjoy the army you do have and the fact that you have a great range with middle tier rules and a few tournament builds. Jeez.

Yeah I would call you a bad player as well for losing to Grey Knights that quickly. Even Daemons, the army they should theoretically be trained to fight, can have an easy time fighting them. You also posted a lot without making a clear point. If it's regarding using allies, allies should be a compliment, not a crutch.

**sennacherib**

What’s wrong with infantry, bikes and dreads getting chapter tactics. Imperials have the most options. What’s wrong with things as stated in the codex. Does someone else having flashy rules stand out as an affront to you. Seriously. It’s not like your codex sucks.

Seems like you want to add a new crutch to your army rather than just learn how to play better with what you have. What’s your clear point besides trucking out the wammbulance and saying everyone else doesn’t know how to play. Seems like your just whining about wanting more rules to make your army better.

**Slayer-Fan123**

sennacherib wrote:
What’s wrong with infantry, bikes and dreads getting chapter tactics. Imperials have the most options. What’s wrong with things as stated in the codex. Does someone else having flashy rules stand out as an affront to you. Seriously. It’s not like your codex sucks.

Seems like you want to add a new crutch to your army rather than just learn how to play better with what you have. What’s your clear point besides trucking out the wammbulance and saying everyone else doesn’t know how to play. Seems like your just whining about wanting more rules to make your army better.

Actually I can tell you my AdMech codex is pretty terrible. Wanna talk about the L2P argument one more time?

**sennacherib**

Nah. This whole thread is bellyaching about the space marines being the worst and how they need new rules. Pathetic.

I’m sorry if admech also got a crappy dex in addition to grey knights. I would love to see a more balanced playing field for everyone, however, the argument that space marines need more special stuff so they can make the universe great again is just pathetic. With as many options as they have they don’t need any new rules to make them better. They just need to ally in whatever they need to improve their list from the 100’s of potential options available. Or learn to be a better General with what you have.

And as for discussing the L2P argument. You stated that i must be a bad player for having lost in a match up against an army that was tooled up to beat me. It shows a remarkable ignorance on your part if you really think you can cast those sort of aspersions with any certainty given how little you know of the circumstances.

**blaktoof**

There is nothing wrong with space Marines or chaos space marines.

I run into people arguing that other factions get traits on all the units, then I ask them if they would rather give up SM or CSM traits and Strategems for the faction they are bemoaning is somehow better because more units get the traits. They tend to promptly stop talking.

The reality is the combination or base rules for Marines and their traits and Strategems are really strong. Maybe even more so for chaos who can customize units with marks and the corresponding Strategems marked units can use. There are strong arguments that the base legion/chapter traits are stronger than other factions traits which affect more units.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Actually a tooled up GK list will still lose to daemons. It's that poor of a codex since 6th edition. Yeah the assertion works.

I don't care what hyperbole you wish to take from the thread title. What's TRUE is that there's no good justification of Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines not getting an equivalent on their vehicles for Chapter Tactics.

**sennacherib**

There is no good justification for chaos not having assault cannons or a host of other wargear available to their loyalist counterparts, since we loot the corpses of the lap dogs servants whenever we win a battle. But GW rights the rules and the fluff. If you don’t like it. There’s not much you can do besides either whining about it here, getting a job at GW so you can change the rules, or accepting it.

Or maybe you should just stick with admech! Given that you have been complaining about space marines since May of last year I suggest you move on buddy.

**Galas**

blaktoof wrote:
There is nothing wrong with space Marines or chaos space marines.

I run into people arguing that other factions get traits on all the units, then I ask them if they would rather give up SM or CSM traits and Strategems for the faction they are bemoaning is somehow better because more units get the traits. They tend to promptly stop talking.

The reality is the combination or base rules for Marines and their traits and Strategems are really strong. Maybe even more so for chaos who can customize units with marks and the corresponding Strategems marked units can use. There are strong arguments that the base legion/chapter traits are stronger than other factions traits which affect more units.

Yeah, like Iron Hands vs Ulthwé. Or Alpha Legion and Ravenguard vs Alaitoc. The space marine versions are much, much better.

**Slayer-Fan123**

sennacherib wrote:
There is no good justification for chaos not having assault cannons or a host of other wargear available to their loyalist counterparts, since we loot the corpses of the lap dogs servants whenever we win a battle. But GW rights the rules and the fluff. If you don’t like it. There’s not much you can do besides either whining about it here, getting a job at GW so you can change the rules, or accepting it.

Or maybe you should just stick with admech! Given that you have been complaining about space marines since May of last year I suggest you move on buddy.

I'm complaining about imbalances and inconsistencies, period.

I also did apply for that rules writing position they had up a while ago, but they don't want stinky Americans and wanted someone local to them so...

**master of ordinance**

Scott-S6 wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:
Chaos and Loyal Marines not having Chapter Tactics in their vehicles was a good thing. The problem is the rest have them. So GW can do two things:
-Remove the bonuses from the rest (I doubt that)
-Give the bonuses to Marines. (More probably)

Or how about no? How about (for once) other non-Eldar factions get something that Marines dont.

I'm okay with Marines getting chapter tactics on their vehicles because the same logic gets us regimental tactics on Guard aircraft (which I definitely want).

Now that would be fun

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Literally nobody here told you to ally in Marine units, and in fact we gave you ways to beef up your list against the dreaded Tactical Marine. You just refused to take that advice.

What? Just about every Marine player was coming to the Guard threads and tellig us - note that, us, not me, to "just ally in xyz". And the "beef up your list" advice was, well, it was laughable and clearly written by people that did not understand that army (50 Guardsmen with 5 HWT and 5 Plasma with a Commissar and 3 Primaris Psykers and a Priest - all you have to do is roll these three specific powers guard players, and get them off each turn, and hope the enemy doesnt have any heavy armour, or melee infiltrators, or get the first turn and you win)

2. Because consistency is key.

Lost here, but anyway

3. Now you're just showing your hate for Marines with the Chronus bit. This shows you're biased and don't actually care about balance, but you proved that anyway with a previous post when you said you were glad Index Guard were broken.

No, I am showing I am fed up with Marines literally being "everyone else but better" and Chronus just happens to emphasise this issue well. And yes, I did say i was glad we where strong. Note that, 'strong' not 'broken'. It gave certai players a taste of what they had been dishing out for the past few years. But dont worry, hardcore whining brought us down a few notches and a bit more should see Guard players losing most games again.
I care about balance to an extent, but years of Marine player whining despite being the most loved faction has worn me down.

4. We proves Insectum wrong on all fluff accounts. So that isn't allowed to be your supposed justification.

Funny that, its not okay for me to use fluff as a justufucation for something but as soon as the boot is on the other foot things change.

5. You're a bad player because you were tabled by a GK list by Turn 3. That would've been a story told at a tournament for years if it had happened there.

Remind me again how I was supposed to deal with 2K of GK, minus one babycarrier, turning up and wiping out my flank back when the Guard codex was the worst codex in the game bar the SOB? Or have we magically forgotten those several years when Marines where the top dogs and Guard players could hardly be bothered setting up?

**sennacherib**

@ master of ordinance . I got tabled 3rd turn. It happened to me in 7th, Khorne daemons vs GK. It happens. Anyone who says that it dosnt just Hasn’t been around.