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 master of ordinance wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:
Chaos and Loyal Marines not having Chapter Tactics in their vehicles was a good thing. The problem is the rest have them. So GW can do two things:
-Remove the bonuses from the rest (I doubt that)
-Give the bonuses to Marines. (More probably)

Or how about no? How about (for once) other non-Eldar factions get something that Marines dont.

I'm okay with Marines getting chapter tactics on their vehicles because the same logic gets us regimental tactics on Guard aircraft (which I definitely want).

Now that would be fun

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Literally nobody here told you to ally in Marine units, and in fact we gave you ways to beef up your list against the dreaded Tactical Marine. You just refused to take that advice.

What? Just about every Marine player was coming to the Guard threads and tellig us - note that, us, not me, to "just ally in xyz". And the "beef up your list" advice was, well, it was laughable and clearly written by people that did not understand that army (50 Guardsmen with 5 HWT and 5 Plasma with a Commissar and 3 Primaris Psykers and a Priest - all you have to do is roll these three specific powers guard players, and get them off each turn, and hope the enemy doesnt have any heavy armour, or melee infiltrators, or get the first turn and you win)

2. Because consistency is key.

Lost here, but anyway

3. Now you're just showing your hate for Marines with the Chronus bit. This shows you're biased and don't actually care about balance, but you proved that anyway with a previous post when you said you were glad Index Guard were broken.

No, I am showing I am fed up with Marines literally being "everyone else but better" and Chronus just happens to emphasise this issue well. And yes, I did say i was glad we where strong. Note that, 'strong' not 'broken'. It gave certai players a taste of what they had been dishing out for the past few years. But dont worry, hardcore whining brought us down a few notches and a bit more should see Guard players losing most games again.
I care about balance to an extent, but years of Marine player whining despite being the most loved faction has worn me down.

4. We proves Insectum wrong on all fluff accounts. So that isn't allowed to be your supposed justification.

Funny that, its not okay for me to use fluff as a justufucation for something but as soon as the boot is on the other foot things change.

5. You're a bad player because you were tabled by a GK list by Turn 3. That would've been a story told at a tournament for years if it had happened there.

Remind me again how I was supposed to deal with 2K of GK, minus one babycarrier, turning up and wiping out my flank back when the Guard codex was the worst codex in the game bar the SOB? Or have we magically forgotten those several years when Marines where the top dogs and Guard players could hardly be bothered setting up?

1. Pretty sure everyone told Jancoran how bad his Deathstar was right there (I recognize that specific squad ANYWHERE if brought up because him defending it gave me a brain aneurysm), but other key points were correct on using spammable Psykers and spamming Divination rolls, using Aegis Defense Lines if you wanted that infantry focus, etcetera. I agree the last codex wasn't terribly great, but anyone can tell you how bad casual Marine lists are, especially when you're having THAT much trouble with the basic Tactical Marine outside a Gladius list. It's almost laughable, to be frank.

2. Either everyone gets Chapter Tactics on their vehicles, or nobody does. Simple as that. Consistency. At first it made sense with the limited units AdMech had, but then Guard got variations and Eldar straight up got the same bonuses on everything.
Based on complaints of Codices you should be throwing a fit that Eldar got it. You aren't for a reason and that's because of a shear hatred for Marines. Simple as that.

3. Marines ARE better than everyone else in the Guard. It's their gimmick. They're soldiers that are basically grown to fight and defeat the enemy and aren't even human at that point. That's what makes the heroics of the simple human soldier to the Inquisitor matter more for scale.
Not to mention that's actually how all the races work outside the Guard. Orks are better than humans, Eldar and their Dark counterpart are doomed but still better than humans, Necrons and Tyranids are better than humans...you get the point.

4. You've got a fluff justification to get Tactics on Guard vehicles, but you don't have one to not put it on Marine vehicles. What I've done is simply argue semantics with Insectum that training doesn't just go away and he ignored it.

5. So everything drops in, you kill the Infantry (wasn't hard to kill a 20 point Marine ever, or any Terminator variant in any edition besides this one, really) and tarpit the Dreadknights as trying to kill them is a waste of time unless you wanna commit a whole army to it, and otherwise focus on one Dreadknight a time after all the Marines are dead. Seriously. Not hard to kill a GK army. You can do it easily with Daemons, the dudes they're supposed to be good at fighting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sennacherib wrote:
@ master of ordinance . I got tabled 3rd turn. It happened to me in 7th, Khorne daemons vs GK. It happens. Anyone who says that it dosnt just Hasn’t been around.

Then you're a bad player. Simple as that. Grey Knights were terrible even vs Daemons.

I don't agree with the OP on this premise, but I do agree with a lot of points raised by the OP and Slayer to some extent for sure. I think that trying rational discussion with MoO and this new guy is a waste of time. #ignored

2. Consistency. Might as well only play marine on marine then. Where are the storm shields for chaos, grav, assault cannons, chaos landspeededs. Your whole consistency argument is so flawed. They are different armies so there doesn’t have to be any consistency between codex. Flat out. Do you expect marines to have all the same bonus as tyranids? Space elves should be the same as genetically altered humans. Should they be consistent. Fundamentally flawed argument. Is that all you have.

Previous posts include complaining that marines are not good enough over a year ago, to more recent whining about bolt guns needing to be better. Sounds like your win button isn’t big enough.

the_scotsman wrote:
Nah tbh all factions should get CTs on their vehicles. It makes the rules more variable and interesting. IDGAF if you're regular marines or gay angel marines or traitor angel marines or pointy marines who pretend theyre different or whatever, you should get CTs on your vehicles because it makes the game more interesting.

And I hope Chapter Approved does do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sennacherib wrote:
If anything chaos deserves all the same equipment options that loyalists get instead of codex full of so many terribad units that when they hit the table top, people have to ask what they are. Ever seen someone playing mutilators.

With all this whining you sir will be the first to fall to chaos. Buck up.

I hope your post was a typo because I am not sure a homophobic comment has a place in a conversation about the Space Marine Codex. FYI, I flagged your comment. If this was a typo, I apologize for my response.

bananathug wrote:
Another data point:

Most recent large tournament (Warzone Atlanta)

9 of 104 entrants using SM (29 CSM) so 4th most popular faction.

Of codex factions CSM (29) -> Eldar (14) -> IG (11) -> SM (9) ->AdMech (3) ->GK (1)

Of those 9 SM armies 7 are using Guilliman and "Almost all the loyalist marines were Ultramarines"

http://fieldoffiregaming.com/factions-will-see-warzone-atlanta/

I would interpret the results of 2 Non-guilliman SM armies as ranking around the bottom of the barrel of codex and non codex armies. Supporting mono-build narrative and general suckyness of the rest of the codex.

Caveats of small sample size (just one tourney) and "but GK are worse" would apply but it would appear that Codex creep is real and SM need some help (cough, more primarchs, cough).

Quick update on the results. Top 15, 2x ynarri, 2x IG, 2x IG soup (+blood and +sisters), 9x chaos ( 4 mostermash soup, got 1 DG army, 4 CSM soups):
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23380192_1473333182734986_2655023239182485553_n.jpg?oh=3ab33766829946eb9af6548afebb8ea9&oe=5A638E5A

Here's the lists:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1UlbTW0W06qOlaYfDh6vdmghtK1wKtGHs

Non-Ultramarine Codex SM are not competitive (there was a blood angels IG soup list ...). Hell 0/15 when almost 1/10 at the tourney were SM I'm not sure how competitive they are + Rowboat...

Allow Bobby G's aura to interact with all codex complient SMs or find a way to fix SM iconic unit terminators (is that their iconic unit? I feel CSM does these better) or give SM an iconic unit.

 sennacherib wrote:
2. Consistency. Might as well only play marine on marine then. Where are the storm shields for chaos, grav, assault cannons, chaos landspeededs. Your whole consistency argument is so flawed. They are different armies so there doesn’t have to be any consistency between codex. Flat out. Do you expect marines to have all the same bonus as tyranids? Space elves should be the same as genetically altered humans. Should they be consistent. Fundamentally flawed argument. Is that all you have.

Previous posts include complaining that marines are not good enough over a year ago, to more recent whining about bolt guns needing to be better. Sounds like your win button isn’t big enough.

Actually I agree that Renegade chapters aren't entirely well represented.

You've only shown chaos to be on the strong side, not SM being horrible.

And given that practically every chaos list has a healthy doze of malefic lords, the fact might rise that that one unit is a major factor in it.

That the malefic lord is Chaos's conscript is well known at this point. It'll be interesting to see how the faction performs without it (my guess would be "pretty well, but not as good as Eldar").

Median Trace wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Nah tbh all factions should get CTs on their vehicles. It makes the rules more variable and interesting. IDGAF if you're regular marines or gay angel marines or traitor angel marines or pointy marines who pretend theyre different or whatever, you should get CTs on your vehicles because it makes the game more interesting.

And I hope Chapter Approved does do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sennacherib wrote:
If anything chaos deserves all the same equipment options that loyalists get instead of codex full of so many terribad units that when they hit the table top, people have to ask what they are. Ever seen someone playing mutilators.

With all this whining you sir will be the first to fall to chaos. Buck up.

I hope your post was a typo because I am not sure a homophobic comment has a place in a conversation about the Space Marine Codex. FYI, I flagged your comment. If this was a typo, I apologize for my response.
[/quote
I’m sure he was just talking about happy marines.

Define gay: happily excited : merry; keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits; bright, lively —

Median Trace wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Nah tbh all factions should get CTs on their vehicles. It makes the rules more variable and interesting. IDGAF if you're regular marines or gay angel marines or traitor angel marines or pointy marines who pretend theyre different or whatever, you should get CTs on your vehicles because it makes the game more interesting.

And I hope Chapter Approved does do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sennacherib wrote:
If anything chaos deserves all the same equipment options that loyalists get instead of codex full of so many terribad units that when they hit the table top, people have to ask what they are. Ever seen someone playing mutilators.

With all this whining you sir will be the first to fall to chaos. Buck up.

I hope your post was a typo because I am not sure a homophobic comment has a place in a conversation about the Space Marine Codex. FYI, I flagged your comment. If this was a typo, I apologize for my response.

Agreed, i share your outrage. Everyone knows that Lion el'Johnson was fabulous. Please flag my comment too - i hate people who state facts, it's not pc.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
2. Consistency. Might as well only play marine on marine then. Where are the storm shields for chaos, grav, assault cannons, chaos landspeededs. Your whole consistency argument is so flawed. They are different armies so there doesn’t have to be any consistency between codex. Flat out. Do you expect marines to have all the same bonus as tyranids? Space elves should be the same as genetically altered humans. Should they be consistent. Fundamentally flawed argument. Is that all you have.

Previous posts include complaining that marines are not good enough over a year ago, to more recent whining about bolt guns needing to be better. Sounds like your win button isn’t big enough.

Actually I agree that Renegade chapters aren't entirely well represented.

Do you also agree that your argument that apples and oranges should be the same for consistency sake is irrelevant in any context. Space elf rules and Demi human rules do not need ever be the same for consistency sake.

I don't see why there should be consistency between classic sci-fi techno-priests, regular joe's with an excessive amount of firepower, pointy eared donkey-caves, but somehow that stops at jerks in power armor.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You've only shown chaos to be on the strong side, not SM being horrible.

And given that practically every chaos list has a healthy doze of malefic lords, the fact might rise that that one unit is a major factor in it.

Oh that malefic lord is point cost gold... it needs the same semi-nerfed smite warlocks got, at which point no one would care. Or get pushed up into the 40+ point range, to be on par with the primarius/spiritseer.

 sennacherib wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
2. Consistency. Might as well only play marine on marine then. Where are the storm shields for chaos, grav, assault cannons, chaos landspeededs. Your whole consistency argument is so flawed. They are different armies so there doesn’t have to be any consistency between codex. Flat out. Do you expect marines to have all the same bonus as tyranids? Space elves should be the same as genetically altered humans. Should they be consistent. Fundamentally flawed argument. Is that all you have.

Previous posts include complaining that marines are not good enough over a year ago, to more recent whining about bolt guns needing to be better. Sounds like your win button isn’t big enough.

Actually I agree that Renegade chapters aren't entirely well represented.

Do you also agree that your argument that apples and oranges should be the same for consistency sake is irrelevant in any context. Space elf rules and Demi human rules do not need ever be the same for consistency sake.

Design philosophies need to be consistent though. That's the issue here.

clownshoes wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
You've only shown chaos to be on the strong side, not SM being horrible.

And given that practically every chaos list has a healthy doze of malefic lords, the fact might rise that that one unit is a major factor in it.

Oh that malefic lord is point cost gold... it needs the same semi-nerfed smite warlocks got, at which point no one would care. Or get pushed up into the 40+ point range, to be on par with the primarius/spiritseer.

Ehhh, the primaris psyker is ALSO undercosted, just not as undercosted as a malefic lord. Frankly the ability to cast a single psychic power is worth 60 points, with every power after that being dramatically less useful.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Actually I agree that Renegade chapters aren't entirely well represented.

They're exactly as well represented as Space Marines are.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You've only shown chaos to be on the strong side, not SM being horrible.

And given that practically every chaos list has a healthy doze of malefic lords, the fact might rise that that one unit is a major factor in it.

I think chaos codex isn't better than SM one. The most efficient units in the strongest chaos lists don't belong to their codex. Malefic lords are FW while Mortarion and Magnus are included in other codexes and they're like Cawl or Celestine in a SM list. They're allied to chaos space marines just like SM can have IG units or Celestine as allied, and SM + IG can be very powerful, certainly very far from being labeled "the worst". How competitive is a chaos list with units that belong only to the chaos space marines codex?

Maybe the title of this thread should be: "proof that SM FW units are the worst"?

Median Trace wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Nah tbh all factions should get CTs on their vehicles. It makes the rules more variable and interesting. IDGAF if you're regular marines or angel marines or traitor angel marines or pointy marines who pretend theyre different or whatever, you should get CTs on your vehicles because it makes the game more interesting.

And I hope Chapter Approved does do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sennacherib wrote:
If anything chaos deserves all the same equipment options that loyalists get instead of codex full of so many terribad units that when they hit the table top, people have to ask what they are. Ever seen someone playing mutilators.

With all this whining you sir will be the first to fall to chaos. Buck up.

I hope your post was a typo because I am not sure a homophobic comment has a place in a conversation about the Space Marine Codex. FYI, I flagged your comment. If this was a typo, I apologize for my response.

Just a bad joke. Apologies, deleted.

I think the main problem with marines and chaos marines at the moment, isnt their codexes. Its the fundamental base level of a space marine in the rules.

Allow me to explain...

Point 1.

A number of 'hoard' armies or 'squishy' armies (basically almost everything that wasnt a space marine) got a boost to its survivability in 8th, as all ap5 weapons lost any form of armour penetration. And these represented almost every basic weapon in the game.
Further 'medium' durability units that recieved a 4+ save, went from standard anti infantry heavy weapons removing them completely (think heavy bolters and auto cannons), to reducing their save by 1, which is still a big improvement in durability.
With these considerations, almost all base level infantry (eg stuff that didnt have special rules of one kind or another to add defences), that wasnt a space marine, became approximately 1/3 more durable without becoming any more expensive.

But if we take a look at space marines...
Weapons that marines used to be very capable of ignoring, were now reducing their armor save. An Ap-1 weapon, now effectively removes 1/4 of the durability of a space marines armour, while it had no effect last eddition.
Twin weapons becoming multi shot also made space marines worse, because now their potential damage output to 'heavy' infantry had effectively doubled and shooting things like space marines with twin linked heavy weapons became less wasteful.

So overall units that have a 4+ or worse save, got a lot better in 8th, while units with a 3+ or better got a lot worse. And no real base point levels changed for infantry between 7th and 8th (a guardsman still cost 4, a marine still cost 13, an eldar line unit still cost 8)

Point 2.

Now with the greater number of codexes that we have available, we see another pattern that isnt working well for marines. It appears that marines follow the base rules of the game more than other factions.

What I mean by this is that space marines don't have a lot of, or at least a lot of relevant special rules which affect the game play more than a pretty reliable set of re rolls. This means that unlike when facing units from enemy armies that fly, or ignore penalties to hit, or shoot twice, if a player has prepared to deal with solid basic units, they dont have to think harder to deal with space marines. Standard strategies and tactics need less revision when facing a space marine army then when facing something more specialist.

Point 3.

Space marine spcialists have to pay the tax of being a space marine while also doing the thing you bought them for. A space marine psycher is more points than other psychers, even though his utility isnt better, because he has to pay points for almost useless ST T W A and sv characteristics. Same goes for their medics, mechanics etc.

Point 4.

Unfortunately Guilliman and the ravenguard exist. - Which means its difficult to see how bad space marines are at a basic level, because the only ones we see are ones that are either considerably harder to kill because their owner happened to paint them black, or are way way more effcient at dealing damage than they should be.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
2. Consistency. Might as well only play marine on marine then. Where are the storm shields for chaos, grav, assault cannons, chaos landspeededs. Your whole consistency argument is so flawed. They are different armies so there doesn’t have to be any consistency between codex. Flat out. Do you expect marines to have all the same bonus as tyranids? Space elves should be the same as genetically altered humans. Should they be consistent. Fundamentally flawed argument. Is that all you have.

Previous posts include complaining that marines are not good enough over a year ago, to more recent whining about bolt guns needing to be better. Sounds like your win button isn’t big enough.

Actually I agree that Renegade chapters aren't entirely well represented.

Do you also agree that your argument that apples and oranges should be the same for consistency sake is irrelevant in any context. Space elf rules and Demi human rules do not need ever be the same for consistency sake.

Design philosophies need to be consistent though. That's the issue here.

They never were before so why should they now? Space elves are a different army as are Guard. There is no long standing design philosophy anywhere that states that everything has to be consistent across the board. I didn’t hear any space marines talking about other armies needing grav or Demi companies. Your aurgument is hogwash. You just want more shiny rulez.

Think the real question is how viable the inevitable majority-Primaris SM Codex might be/make SM.

 sennacherib wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
2. Consistency. Might as well only play marine on marine then. Where are the storm shields for chaos, grav, assault cannons, chaos landspeededs. Your whole consistency argument is so flawed. They are different armies so there doesn’t have to be any consistency between codex. Flat out. Do you expect marines to have all the same bonus as tyranids? Space elves should be the same as genetically altered humans. Should they be consistent. Fundamentally flawed argument. Is that all you have.

Previous posts include complaining that marines are not good enough over a year ago, to more recent whining about bolt guns needing to be better. Sounds like your win button isn’t big enough.

Actually I agree that Renegade chapters aren't entirely well represented.

Do you also agree that your argument that apples and oranges should be the same for consistency sake is irrelevant in any context. Space elf rules and Demi human rules do not need ever be the same for consistency sake.

Design philosophies need to be consistent though. That's the issue here.

They never were before so why should they now? Space elves are a different army as are Guard. There is no long standing design philosophy anywhere that states that everything has to be consistent across the board. I didn’t hear any space marines talking about other armies needing grav or Demi companies. Your aurgument is hogwash. You just want more shiny rulez.

Consistency in design philosophy does not mean giving each army the same rules and equipment.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
2. Consistency. Might as well only play marine on marine then. Where are the storm shields for chaos, grav, assault cannons, chaos landspeededs. Your whole consistency argument is so flawed. They are different armies so there doesn’t have to be any consistency between codex. Flat out. Do you expect marines to have all the same bonus as tyranids? Space elves should be the same as genetically altered humans. Should they be consistent. Fundamentally flawed argument. Is that all you have.

Previous posts include complaining that marines are not good enough over a year ago, to more recent whining about bolt guns needing to be better. Sounds like your win button isn’t big enough.

Actually I agree that Renegade chapters aren't entirely well represented.

Do you also agree that your argument that apples and oranges should be the same for consistency sake is irrelevant in any context. Space elf rules and Demi human rules do not need ever be the same for consistency sake.

Design philosophies need to be consistent though. That's the issue here.

They never were before so why should they now? Space elves are a different army as are Guard. There is no long standing design philosophy anywhere that states that everything has to be consistent across the board. I didn’t hear any space marines talking about other armies needing grav or Demi companies. Your aurgument is hogwash. You just want more shiny rulez.

Consistency in design philosophy does not mean giving each army the same rules and equipment.

They say, in a thread where people are begging to have the same rules and complaining they don't have the same equipment.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

They say, in a thread where people are begging to have the same rules and complaining they don't have the same equipment.

Find me arguing for that.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

They say, in a thread where people are begging to have the same rules and complaining they don't have the same equipment.

Find me arguing for that.

Why?

When people are asking for "Consistency" they're doing it as a veiled attempt at saying "This army has rules that mine doesn't." or, more pertinently, "This army has rules which work differently from mine."

The type of "consistency" you're defending does, in fact, mean giving each army the same rules and equipment.

Gee wizz, people sure do get riled up about toy soldiers. Keeps me entertained on my lunch break at least

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

They say, in a thread where people are begging to have the same rules and complaining they don't have the same equipment.

Find me arguing for that.

Why?

When people are asking for "Consistency" they're doing it as a veiled attempt at saying "This army has rules that mine doesn't."

The type of "consistency" you're defending does, in fact, mean giving each army the same rules and equipment.

No. My consistency of design philosophy is each army being given tools to compete. That does not require the tools be identical. Tyranids don't need lascannons if they have big monsters which can destroy tanks and the means to get those monsters into close combat with enemy vehicles. That could be through having fast big monsters or weapons capable of slowing enemy units down (say, an arachnid-themed unit which can infiltrate in with weapons which fire sticky webs, gluing infantry in place and slowing vehicles down for a turn).

If you can find any posts of me calling for homogeneity then by all means, go ahead and quote them.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

They say, in a thread where people are begging to have the same rules and complaining they don't have the same equipment.

Find me arguing for that.

Why?

When people are asking for "Consistency" they're doing it as a veiled attempt at saying "This army has rules that mine doesn't."

The type of "consistency" you're defending does, in fact, mean giving each army the same rules and equipment.

No. My consistency of design philosophy is each army being given tools to compete. That does not require the tools be identical. Tyranids don't need lascannons if they have big monsters which can destroy tanks and the means to get those monsters into close combat with enemy vehicles. That could be through having fast big monsters or weapons capable of slowing enemy units down (say, an arachnid-themed unit which can infiltrate in with weapons which fire sticky webs, gluing infantry in place and slowing vehicles down for a turn).

If you can find any posts of me calling for homogeneity then by all means, go ahead and quote them.

I don't need posts of you arguing for homogeneity.

Someone claimed "Consistency" meant "all armies get the same <thingymabobber goes here>."

Someone else called them out on that.

Then you stepped in and said, to person number 2: "No, you're wrong, consistency doesn't mean all armies get the same tools."

I feel like you should have agreed with person number 2, but instead got all pissed about them because they believed consistency is something other than what the first person claimed it was.

While it's true that an equivalency in game competitiveness does not necessitate everyone having rules that work in the same way, something that makes the game more interesting can, in fact, be justified in applying to everyone merely on that grounds.

Chapter Tactics were the sole providence of the marines for nearly two editions. While other armies were able to compete, small bonuses rewarding specialization to make an army act more like "your dudes" was interesting and there was no reason that it shouldn't be applied to, for instance, Guard regiments.

So now it is, and the game is better for it.

That's why I hope GW makes that change in chapter approved and allows all the marine subfaction tactics to apply to all units: it makes vehicles more interesting in the factions that do have traits applying to vehicles. Not because "EQUALITY!" but because I play a whole frickin' heckuva lot of marines (as does most everybody who plays 40k) and anything that makes them more varied and individualized, I am for.

The single most problematic tactic that could be applied to tanks and flyers, the Raven Guard buff, is ALREADY applied to tanks and flyers in the Eldar codex, and even there it's not really that hard to deal with. What else have we got? Any kind of melee buff - who cares. Dreadnoughts already have the tactic. Imp Fists/IWs? Obviously not broken on Devastators, Centurions, DakkaDreads, etc, I fail to see why it would become broken applied to a Predator. Word Bearers? Lolnope. Salamanders? Dreads already make the best use of it, since they dip into it for shooting and melee.

So what vehicle is going to be so broken with CSM/SM tactics applied to it?

 sennacherib wrote:
There is no good justification for chaos not having assault cannons or a host of other wargear available to their loyalist counterparts, since we loot the corpses of the lap dogs servants whenever we win a battle. But GW rights the rules and the fluff. If you don’t like it. There’s not much you can do besides either whining about it here, getting a job at GW so you can change the rules, or accepting it.


Or maybe you should just stick with admech! Given that you have been complaining about space marines since May of last year I suggest you move on buddy.

You get assault cannons - we get autocannons? Sound good?