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the_scotsman wrote:
Chapter Tactics were the sole providence of the marines for nearly two editions

The Imperial Guard's Regimental Doctrines disagrees with this, unless you're arguing only for the time after GW removed them from the Guard. But the point is, Guard had the equivalent of chapter tactics back in fourth edition.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
There is no good justification for chaos not having assault cannons or a host of other wargear available to their loyalist counterparts, since we loot the corpses of the lap dogs servants whenever we win a battle. But GW rights the rules and the fluff. If you don’t like it. There’s not much you can do besides either whining about it here, getting a job at GW so you can change the rules, or accepting it.


Or maybe you should just stick with admech! Given that you have been complaining about space marines since May of last year I suggest you move on buddy.

You get assault cannons - we get autocannons? Sound good?

But you already have access to autocannons, and in fact your autocannons have "Marine-itis", inexplicably having 2d3 instead of 2 shots and 3 damage instead of 2.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

They say, in a thread where people are begging to have the same rules and complaining they don't have the same equipment.

Find me arguing for that.

Why?

When people are asking for "Consistency" they're doing it as a veiled attempt at saying "This army has rules that mine doesn't."

The type of "consistency" you're defending does, in fact, mean giving each army the same rules and equipment.

No. My consistency of design philosophy is each army being given tools to compete. That does not require the tools be identical. Tyranids don't need lascannons if they have big monsters which can destroy tanks and the means to get those monsters into close combat with enemy vehicles. That could be through having fast big monsters or weapons capable of slowing enemy units down (say, an arachnid-themed unit which can infiltrate in with weapons which fire sticky webs, gluing infantry in place and slowing vehicles down for a turn).

If you can find any posts of me calling for homogeneity then by all means, go ahead and quote them.

I don't need posts of you arguing for homogeneity.

Someone claimed "Consistency" meant "all armies get the same <thingymabobber goes here>."

Someone else called them out on that.

Then you stepped in and said, to person number 2: "No, you're wrong, consistency doesn't mean all armies get the same tools."

I feel like you should have agreed with person number 2, but instead got all pissed about them because they believed consistency is something other than what the first person claimed it was.

This.

You already have the tools to compete. Your army has lots of tools to compete that other armies lack. A point I have consistently made. Chaos has to pay cp to infiltrate units using the alpha legion trait. We don’t have scouts. We do not have flying transports loaded with psychic dreads and armed with assault cannons, nor do we have flying gunboats, assassins, 3++ save wargear we can hand out like candy, means to shut down opposing psykers. Etc. I’m not whining about it. I’m just pointing out how inconsistent this is. you just want more shiny new rules. There has never been consistency in rules creation between codex in the history of 40k to the best of my knowledge.

As for why space marines are not doing so well in tournament games. Pretty much imbalanced FW units like the malific lord being spammed. If you want to spend 20 pages whining about something, let’s whine about spamming OP cheese, not about how someone else got shiny new toys you want to play with.

 Melissia wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Chapter Tactics were the sole providence of the marines for nearly two editions

The Imperial Guard's Regimental Doctrines disagrees with this, unless you're arguing only for the time after GW removed them from the Guard.

I think he meant "nearly two editions" as in 6th and 7th editions - doctrines and chapter tactics co-existed in 3rd.

And in 3rd the Guard ones could apply to tanks and the Marine ones couldn't and no one said a damn thing... *muses*

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think he meant "nearly two editions" as in 6th and 7th editions - doctrines and chapter tactics co-existed in 3rd.

And in 3rd the Guard ones could apply to tanks and the Marine ones couldn't and no one said a damn thing... *muses*

And fourth ed, as I tend to ignore the existence of 3rd edition most of the time. But yep, that's certainly true.

Hell, HBMC still has a tactica article on 4th edition doctrines here on Dakka, back from before the time when HBMC became the beacon of cynicism he is today.

 sennacherib wrote:
2. Consistency. Might as well only play marine on marine then. Where are the storm shields for chaos, grav, assault cannons, chaos landspeededs. Your whole consistency argument is so flawed. They are different armies so there doesn’t have to be any consistency between codex. Flat out. Do you expect marines to have all the same bonus as tyranids? Space elves should be the same as genetically altered humans. Should they be consistent. Fundamentally flawed argument. Is that all you have.

Previous posts include complaining that marines are not good enough over a year ago, to more recent whining about bolt guns needing to be better. Sounds like your win button isn’t big enough.

You see...you are confusing having options. With having choices. Plus it's not like you don't have options that loyalists don't - Like daemon princes (which is better than literally every unit in the space marine codex - minus Guilliman). This is a discussion about power / not options. Nether chaos or loyalist have any shortage of options compared to other armies - it doesn't make those options good or bad though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
There is no good justification for chaos not having assault cannons or a host of other wargear available to their loyalist counterparts, since we loot the corpses of the lap dogs servants whenever we win a battle. But GW rights the rules and the fluff. If you don’t like it. There’s not much you can do besides either whining about it here, getting a job at GW so you can change the rules, or accepting it.


Or maybe you should just stick with admech! Given that you have been complaining about space marines since May of last year I suggest you move on buddy.

You get assault cannons - we get autocannons? Sound good?

But you already have access to autocannons, and in fact your autocannons have "Marine-itis", inexplicably having 2d3 instead of 2 shots and 3 damage instead of 2.

He's talking about on terminators. That predator autocannon has always been just an autocannon. In this eddition they bumped it's price up to 11 and made it a pretty good weapon. It's also the only place we could put an autocannon outside of a dread. Never been able to have a marine hold an auto-cannon like a chaos marine. I'm not even complaining about this. It's always gone both ways.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Chapter Tactics were the sole providence of the marines for nearly two editions

The Imperial Guard's Regimental Doctrines disagrees with this, unless you're arguing only for the time after GW removed them from the Guard.

I think he meant "nearly two editions" as in 6th and 7th editions - doctrines and chapter tactics co-existed in 3rd.

And in 3rd the Guard ones could apply to tanks and the Marine ones couldn't and no one said a damn thing... *muses*

In 3rd edition, none of the Guard ones could apply to tanks. I've got the Doctrines book sitting right in front of me and they all say "Infantry Squads" with the exception of some allowing for Sentinel Squadrons(Xeno-Fighters and Hardened Fighters) or Rough Rider Squadrons(Die-Hards, Cyber-Enhancement, Carapace Armor), or even Conscript Squads.

 sennacherib wrote:

This.

You already have the tools to compete. Your army has lots of tools to compete that other armies lack. A point I have consistently made. Chaos has to pay cp to infiltrate units using the alpha legion trait. We don’t have scouts. We do not have flying transports loaded with psychic dreads and armed with assault cannons, nor do we have flying gunboats, assassins, 3++ save wargear we can hand out like candy, means to shut down opposing psykers. Etc. I’m not whining about it. I’m just pointing out how inconsistent this is. you just want more shiny new rules. There has never been consistency in rules creation between codex in the history of 40k to the best of my knowledge.

As for why space marines are not doing so well in tournament games. Pretty much imbalanced FW units like the malific lord being spammed. If you want to spend 20 pages whining about something, let’s whine about spamming OP cheese, not about how someone else got shiny new toys you want to play with.

I play Tau. I started in 4th and carried on all the way through 5th. I own no Riptides, Ghostkeels, Stormsurges. My Broadsides are the metal/plastic kits with railguns. My army has often been butchered by GWs failure to understand the differences in how armies are meant to play and the way that the rules determine that. GWs inability to understand that a tank with an anti-tank main gun and infantry support secondary weapons must be able to split fire to work effectively (removal of vehicle target locks in 6th and 7th edition), who didn't understand the importance of mobility in an army meant to play as a mechanised, mobile force (removal of vehicle multi-trackers - fire after moving as if a fast vehicle - in 6th and 7th edition), etc.

On the other hand, Imperium and Chaos both got given safe plasma guns, previously a Tau specialty, although they got it without having to sacrifice any strength of the gun and even got a more powerful statline added to boot.

 Xenomancers wrote:
daemon princes (which is better than ;literally every unit in the space marine codex)

ITT: Daemon Princes "literally better" than Guilliman.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

This.

You already have the tools to compete. Your army has lots of tools to compete that other armies lack. A point I have consistently made. Chaos has to pay cp to infiltrate units using the alpha legion trait. We don’t have scouts. We do not have flying transports loaded with psychic dreads and armed with assault cannons, nor do we have flying gunboats, assassins, 3++ save wargear we can hand out like candy, means to shut down opposing psykers. Etc. I’m not whining about it. I’m just pointing out how inconsistent this is. you just want more shiny new rules. There has never been consistency in rules creation between codex in the history of 40k to the best of my knowledge.

As for why space marines are not doing so well in tournament games. Pretty much imbalanced FW units like the malific lord being spammed. If you want to spend 20 pages whining about something, let’s whine about spamming OP cheese, not about how someone else got shiny new toys you want to play with.

I play Tau. I started in 4th and carried on all the way through 5th. I own no Riptides, Ghostkeels, Stormsurges. My Broadsides are the metal/plastic kits with railguns. My army has often been butchered by GWs failure to understand the differences in how armies are meant to play and the way that the rules determine that.

On the other hand, Imperium and Chaos both got given safe plasma guns, previously a Tau specialty, although they got it without having to sacrifice any strength of the gun and even got a more powerful statline added to boot.

It's really hard to feel sorry for the Tau after 6th/7th; sorry. Also, there is little functional difference between S6 and S7 in 8th.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Chapter Tactics were the sole providence of the marines for nearly two editions

The Imperial Guard's Regimental Doctrines disagrees with this, unless you're arguing only for the time after GW removed them from the Guard.

I think he meant "nearly two editions" as in 6th and 7th editions - doctrines and chapter tactics co-existed in 3rd.

And in 3rd the Guard ones could apply to tanks and the Marine ones couldn't and no one said a damn thing... *muses*

In 3rd edition, none of the Guard ones could apply to tanks. I've got the Doctrines book sitting right in front of me and they all say "Infantry Squads" with the exception of some allowing for Sentinel Squadrons(Xeno-Fighters and Hardened Fighters) or Rough Rider Squadrons(Die-Hards, Cyber-Enhancement, Carapace Armor), or even Conscript Squads.

And I've got the Armoured Company list in front of me, and they all say "Leman Russ Tanks" with the exception of Siege Regiment which allowed for Basilisks.

So.... yes you could get doctrines on IG tanks in 3rd and 4th (because I played them).

I didn't hear a peep from Space Marine players back then.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
daemon princes (which is better than ;literally every unit in the space marine codex)

ITT: Daemon Princes "literally better" than Guilliman.

Guilliman is a lord or war only available to ultra marines. Don't be obtuse - you know what I mean - and i am right - fixed it for you so it's more clear.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
daemon princes (which is better than ;literally every unit in the space marine codex)

ITT: Daemon Princes "literally better" than Guilliman.

Guilliman is a lord or war only available to ultra marines. Don't be obtuse - you know what I mean - and i am right.

If you meant something other than what you said, perhaps you should think before you type.

Because iirc Guilliman is a unit in the SM codex. I can find the page number if you want.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Chapter Tactics were the sole providence of the marines for nearly two editions

The Imperial Guard's Regimental Doctrines disagrees with this, unless you're arguing only for the time after GW removed them from the Guard.

I think he meant "nearly two editions" as in 6th and 7th editions - doctrines and chapter tactics co-existed in 3rd.

And in 3rd the Guard ones could apply to tanks and the Marine ones couldn't and no one said a damn thing... *muses*

In 3rd edition, none of the Guard ones could apply to tanks. I've got the Doctrines book sitting right in front of me and they all say "Infantry Squads" with the exception of some allowing for Sentinel Squadrons(Xeno-Fighters and Hardened Fighters) or Rough Rider Squadrons(Die-Hards, Cyber-Enhancement, Carapace Armor), or even Conscript Squads.

And I've got the Armoured Company list in front of me, and they all say "Leman Russ Tanks" with the exception of Siege Regiment which allowed for Basilisks.

So.... yes you could get doctrines on IG tanks in 3rd and 4th (because I played them).

I didn't hear a peep from Space Marine players back then.

Not from the Codex you couldn't. You either had to go FW or Index Astartes.

Maybe that's why you "didn't hear a peep from Space Marine players back then" because in both cases it was "Opponent's permission".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Chapter Tactics were the sole providence of the marines for nearly two editions

The Imperial Guard's Regimental Doctrines disagrees with this, unless you're arguing only for the time after GW removed them from the Guard.

I think he meant "nearly two editions" as in 6th and 7th editions - doctrines and chapter tactics co-existed in 3rd.

And in 3rd the Guard ones could apply to tanks and the Marine ones couldn't and no one said a damn thing... *muses*

In 3rd edition, none of the Guard ones could apply to tanks. I've got the Doctrines book sitting right in front of me and they all say "Infantry Squads" with the exception of some allowing for Sentinel Squadrons(Xeno-Fighters and Hardened Fighters) or Rough Rider Squadrons(Die-Hards, Cyber-Enhancement, Carapace Armor), or even Conscript Squads.

And I've got the Armoured Company list in front of me, and they all say "Leman Russ Tanks" with the exception of Siege Regiment which allowed for Basilisks.

So.... yes you could get doctrines on IG tanks in 3rd and 4th (because I played them).

I didn't hear a peep from Space Marine players back then.

Not from the Codex you couldn't. You either had to go FW or Index Astartes.

Maybe that's why you "didn't hear a peep from Space Marine players back then" because in both cases it was "Opponent's permission".

The Armoured Company list from Chapter Approved was allowed in 'Ard Boys until 5e dropped, and every tournament I went to at the time I played it without concern or care. (FW didn't have control over the tank list until 5e when it was called "Armoured Battlegroup" instead of Armoured Company, and it never was in Index Astartes because it has nothing to do with Astartes).

And "opponent's permission" is meaningless drivel, as you need "opponent's permission" for anything and everything, including his permission to even play the game with him in the first place!

Still: There was once a time when Imperial Guard Leman Russ Tanks had access to Doctrines, and this was official and allowed at every GW tournament, and Space Marine players said nothing.

Martel732 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

This.

You already have the tools to compete. Your army has lots of tools to compete that other armies lack. A point I have consistently made. Chaos has to pay cp to infiltrate units using the alpha legion trait. We don’t have scouts. We do not have flying transports loaded with psychic dreads and armed with assault cannons, nor do we have flying gunboats, assassins, 3++ save wargear we can hand out like candy, means to shut down opposing psykers. Etc. I’m not whining about it. I’m just pointing out how inconsistent this is. you just want more shiny new rules. There has never been consistency in rules creation between codex in the history of 40k to the best of my knowledge.

As for why space marines are not doing so well in tournament games. Pretty much imbalanced FW units like the malific lord being spammed. If you want to spend 20 pages whining about something, let’s whine about spamming OP cheese, not about how someone else got shiny new toys you want to play with.

I play Tau. I started in 4th and carried on all the way through 5th. I own no Riptides, Ghostkeels, Stormsurges. My Broadsides are the metal/plastic kits with railguns. My army has often been butchered by GWs failure to understand the differences in how armies are meant to play and the way that the rules determine that.

On the other hand, Imperium and Chaos both got given safe plasma guns, previously a Tau specialty, although they got it without having to sacrifice any strength of the gun and even got a more powerful statline added to boot.

It's really hard to feel sorry for the Tau after 6th/7th; sorry. Also, there is little functional difference between S6 and S7 in 8th.

Until you want to shoot at something which is T6/7, such as most monstrous creatures. And the ability to increase the strength to 8 and the damage to 2, potentially making the gun twice as lethal.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Chapter Tactics were the sole providence of the marines for nearly two editions

The Imperial Guard's Regimental Doctrines disagrees with this, unless you're arguing only for the time after GW removed them from the Guard.

I think he meant "nearly two editions" as in 6th and 7th editions - doctrines and chapter tactics co-existed in 3rd.

And in 3rd the Guard ones could apply to tanks and the Marine ones couldn't and no one said a damn thing... *muses*

In 3rd edition, none of the Guard ones could apply to tanks. I've got the Doctrines book sitting right in front of me and they all say "Infantry Squads" with the exception of some allowing for Sentinel Squadrons(Xeno-Fighters and Hardened Fighters) or Rough Rider Squadrons(Die-Hards, Cyber-Enhancement, Carapace Armor), or even Conscript Squads.

And I've got the Armoured Company list in front of me, and they all say "Leman Russ Tanks" with the exception of Siege Regiment which allowed for Basilisks.

So.... yes you could get doctrines on IG tanks in 3rd and 4th (because I played them).

I didn't hear a peep from Space Marine players back then.

Not from the Codex you couldn't. You either had to go FW or Index Astartes.

Maybe that's why you "didn't hear a peep from Space Marine players back then" because in both cases it was "Opponent's permission".

The Armoured Company list from Chapter Approved was allowed in 'Ard Boys until 5e dropped, and every tournament I went to at the time I played it without concern or care. (FW didn't have control over the tank list until 5e when it was called "Armoured Battlegroup" instead of Armoured Company, and it never was in Index Astartes because it has nothing to do with Astartes).

And "opponent's permission" is meaningless drivel, as you need "opponent's permission" for anything and everything, including his permission to even play the game with him in the first place!

Still: There was once a time when Imperial Guard Leman Russ Tanks had access to Doctrines, and this was official and allowed at every GW tournament, and Space Marine players said nothing.

Excuse me for forgetting it was called "Chapter Approved".

In any regards, "Opponent's Permission" did actually use to have a meaning and there was a time where it was actually considered reasonable to inform people before dropping stuff like an all-tank list on them.

And who cares what a tournament allowed for?

Yes, the overcharge feature has issues. Although I think the rise of the -1 to hit army wide buff will make plasma a lot less popular.

Presumably, people who played in said tournament.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Excuse me for forgetting it was called "Chapter Approved".

In any regards, "Opponent's Permission" did actually use to have a meaning and there was a time where it was actually considered reasonable to inform people before dropping stuff like an all-tank list on them.

And who cares what a tournament allowed for?

I did usually inform people before dropping stuff like an all-tank list on them, and I still do? And no, it doesn't have any more meaning then than if I did now. If I said "I'm bringing 15 Baneblades" and someone turned down a game, that's them revoking 'opponent's permission', regardless of whether or not the 'dex has any wording to that effect.

As for tournaments - well, they're the only things I play in where I don't talk the list over with my opponent until we deploy, so it's the only situation where they'd have had an opportunity to say "I don't give my 'opponent's permission'." and have it actually 'mean something', as you say. And do you know what GW's answer was? "Tough luck, it's allowed." Because 'ard boyz was an official GW tournament, not some third party thing.

So it really puts the kabosh on your inane "opponent's permission" argument.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
daemon princes (which is better than ;literally every unit in the space marine codex)

ITT: Daemon Princes "literally better" than Guilliman.

Guilliman is a lord or war only available to ultra marines. Don't be obtuse - you know what I mean - and i am right.

If you meant something other than what you said, perhaps you should think before you type.

Because iirc Guilliman is a unit in the SM codex. I can find the page number if you want.

ROFL

Daemonprinces have their uses. I fail to see how they are better than a storm raven.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

So it really puts the kabosh on your inane "opponent's permission" argument.

"Opponent's permisssion" was a cop-out at best anyway. All games are opponent's permission, unless they're at gunpoint.

 sennacherib wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
daemon princes (which is better than ;literally every unit in the space marine codex)

ITT: Daemon Princes "literally better" than Guilliman.

Guilliman is a lord or war only available to ultra marines. Don't be obtuse - you know what I mean - and i am right.

If you meant something other than what you said, perhaps you should think before you type.

Because iirc Guilliman is a unit in the SM codex. I can find the page number if you want.

ROFL

Daemonprinces have their uses. I fail to see how they are better than a storm raven.

Almost 0 chance of being destroyed first turn. With wings and warp time they can assault turn 1 easily. They can kill almost anything that isn't a super heavy that they charge. Can be spammed without losing the game automatically due to having no units on the table. Don't take my word for it though - just look at all the choas list placing high at big events. Daemon princes are almost always included in their list.

Chaos has always been worse than marines. 2nd ed and 3.5 never happened. What's happening now is impossible.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
daemon princes (which is better than ;literally every unit in the space marine codex)

ITT: Daemon Princes "literally better" than Guilliman.

Guilliman is a lord or war only available to ultra marines. Don't be obtuse - you know what I mean - and i am right.

If you meant something other than what you said, perhaps you should think before you type.

Because iirc Guilliman is a unit in the SM codex. I can find the page number if you want.

ROFL

Daemonprinces have their uses. I fail to see how they are better than a storm raven.

Almost 0 chance of being destroyed first turn. With wings and warp time they can assault turn 1 easily. They can kill almost anything that isn't a super heavy that they charge. Can be spammed without losing the game automatically due to having no units on the table. Don't take my word for it though - just look at all the choas list placing high at big events. Daemon princes are almost always included in their list.

Interesting and anecdotally, a game this weekend included a Daemon Prince who charged Wulfen and promptly got utterly annihilated - I was on the Space Wolf player's team that game.

But yes, Daemon Princes are good, even though they can sometimes be a victim of the dice.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
daemon princes (which is better than ;literally every unit in the space marine codex)

ITT: Daemon Princes "literally better" than Guilliman.

Guilliman is a lord or war only available to ultra marines. Don't be obtuse - you know what I mean - and i am right.

If you meant something other than what you said, perhaps you should think before you type.

Because iirc Guilliman is a unit in the SM codex. I can find the page number if you want.

ROFL

Daemonprinces have their uses. I fail to see how they are better than a storm raven.

Almost 0 chance of being destroyed first turn. With wings and warp time they can assault turn 1 easily. They can kill almost anything that isn't a super heavy that they charge. Can be spammed without losing the game automatically due to having no units on the table. Don't take my word for it though - just look at all the choas list placing high at big events. Daemon princes are almost always included in their list.

Interesting and anecdotally, a game this weekend included a Daemon Prince who charged Wulfen and promptly got utterly annihilated - I was on the Space Wolf player's team that game.

But yes, Daemon Princes are good, even though they can sometimes be a victim of the dice.

You should never charge wolfen. They attack back even if you kill them. You shoot Wolfen. They are t4 with 2 wounds...how hard is that to shoot off the table. Tell your team mate to use his brain next time and have some patients!

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
daemon princes (which is better than ;literally every unit in the space marine codex)

ITT: Daemon Princes "literally better" than Guilliman.

Guilliman is a lord or war only available to ultra marines. Don't be obtuse - you know what I mean - and i am right.

If you meant something other than what you said, perhaps you should think before you type.

Because iirc Guilliman is a unit in the SM codex. I can find the page number if you want.

ROFL

Daemonprinces have their uses. I fail to see how they are better than a storm raven.

Almost 0 chance of being destroyed first turn. With wings and warp time they can assault turn 1 easily. They can kill almost anything that isn't a super heavy that they charge. Can be spammed without losing the game automatically due to having no units on the table. Don't take my word for it though - just look at all the choas list placing high at big events. Daemon princes are almost always included in their list.

Interesting and anecdotally, a game this weekend included a Daemon Prince who charged Wulfen and promptly got utterly annihilated - I was on the Space Wolf player's team that game.

But yes, Daemon Princes are good, even though they can sometimes be a victim of the dice.

You should never charge wolfen. They attack back even if you kill them. You shoot Wolfen. They are t4 with 2 wounds...how hard is that to shoot off the table. Tell your team mate to use his brain next time and have some patients!

I was on the SW player's team, not the Chaos' player's.

And there is a whole variety of reasons why the Daemon Prince charged the wulfen but suffice to say: they were deliberate tactical choices on our part that forced his hand; his only other option was to stand there and twiddle his daemonic thumbs until they wiped the Wulfen out, which would have taken at least a turn and would have won us the game.

In fact, experiences like that (from actually playing the game) that make me distrust "mathhammer" and some of the proposed "easy solutions."

Mathhammer is always true, but not always applicable in a given situation.

Martel732 wrote:
Mathhammer is always true, but not always applicable in a given situation.

Right, so if the mathhammer doesn't favour you, then change the situation instead of complaining about the mathhammer.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
daemon princes (which is better than ;literally every unit in the space marine codex)

ITT: Daemon Princes "literally better" than Guilliman.

Guilliman is a lord or war only available to ultra marines. Don't be obtuse - you know what I mean - and i am right.

If you meant something other than what you said, perhaps you should think before you type.

Because iirc Guilliman is a unit in the SM codex. I can find the page number if you want.

ROFL

Daemonprinces have their uses. I fail to see how they are better than a storm raven.

Almost 0 chance of being destroyed first turn. With wings and warp time they can assault turn 1 easily. They can kill almost anything that isn't a super heavy that they charge. Can be spammed without losing the game automatically due to having no units on the table. Don't take my word for it though - just look at all the choas list placing high at big events. Daemon princes are almost always included in their list.

As a chaos player I can safely say that they do not destroy everything they charge.
On average a daemonprince with a sword does 5.49 wounds to a tank. With claws they only kill about 4.8 guardsman equivalent models in melee. There is just no truth in the argument that they can kill almost anything in the charge.

Stormravens on the other hand are so good they had to be nerfed. No such nerf happened to princes because they simply are not that good. Otherwise GW would nerf them. They also don’t put out nearly the same damage as a storm raven, nor do they act as a transport. Either way, we can at least agree that marines have some very good codex options. I just don’t agree that they NEED to have every shiny new rule that comes out just to be consistent. That’s a flawed argument.