Proof that space marine codex is the worst.

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**Martel732**

It's balanced if they pay for it.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
It's balanced if they pay for it.

Yes, it is. I think it's fine for stuff that doesn't currently get army traits (Vulture Gunship, Predators, and the like) to get them, if their price goes up correspondingly.

For example, you could give a Vulture Gunship the Tallarn regimental rule, so it effectively hits ground units on a 2+ even if it doesn't hover, as long as it pays however much army traits should cost. (+5 points?) And you could give a Predator the ability to Ignore Cover for the same price!

See? Balance!

Oh wait.

**Martel732**

Just because GW is lazy doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means all predators don't cost the same.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
Just because GW is lazy doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means all predators don't cost the same.

Are you saying Chapter Tactics/Army Traits/whatever should change prices based on what unit has them?

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
It *is* debateable. If an army's units were pointed such that Infantry were upcharged for a rule and Tanks weren't, and another army upcharged everything for it, clearly it would be unfair for both armies to have it on everything (or both to only have it on Infantry). Not not saying that's what's happening here, but to state such an opinion, not back it up, then claim it's not debatable gets us nowhere (productive).

As I stated, I wouldn't mind if CWE - my main faction - lost *ALL* it's Attributes. So, clearly, we're not all just arguing in support of our own factions simply being better than other factions.

The flaw in your premise is asymetry. Would you be cool if SMs got their traits on all vehicles, for balance, but traits all turned into stuff like "Infantry can never be wounded on less than a 4+, Tanks can fire 1 weapon a turn at full BS after moving", with no points or other rules changes? Clearly, that rule is much, much better for CWE than SM. Does that not prove that symetric CTs/Attributes and their application is not necessarily balanced?

Again, would you be totally fine if IG could field Iyanden's trait (free pre-nerf Comissars on all squads for free, and tanks don't degrade nearly as quickly)? Or would you think it'd be OP on all those CWE squads that, when you kill 3 or 4 models, lose 1 model on a 6 instead of 1 model on a 6? That rule simply would be much more powerful on IG than CWE.

Further, look at RG/AL's Infiltrate. That thing rocks on Berzerkers. CSM can make great use of it. Loyalists can do good things with it, but nothing on that level. Now imagine giving that stratagem to CWE. First turn Scythegaurd to the face (among other shenanigans). If the armies aren't symetric, then symetric buffs aren't necessarily balanced.

I am ofc assuming that every armies points are naturally balanced with their abilities (haha funny I know). That is the way it should be. Safe to say that marine tanks which are excluded from having army traits affect them aren't some special brand of points efficiency that should exclude them - heck - they are even increasing the cost of our two best vehicals (ASSBACK and Stormraven) and they still have no access to army traits. To your point also - it would be better if armies got traits more catered to their units rather than this copy and paste stuff.

**Martel732**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Just because GW is lazy doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means all predators don't cost the same.

Are you saying Chapter Tactics/Army Traits/whatever should change prices based on what unit has them?

Yes. -1 to be hit is more valuable than ignoring cover, and both should cost more than my tacticless BA units.

**-v10mega**

But why give Predator traits such as ignore cover, when devs get it anyway and do it better? The extra price of the pred comes with its durability. Even then... if you give traits to tanks, what stopping them from taking 2 razorbacks with lascannons for the price of one (about) pred?

**AaronWilson**

You know what balance is?

It's not consistency.

If Eldar were all -1 to hit.

And marines all got to re-roll charge distances.

That could be balanced, if game, point system & mechanics made it so.

A balanced game is something a game designer creates with lots of levers in place, like points, scenarios, army rules etc.

**-v10mega**

Like I said... preds are not that good, giving them traits wont help them as much, its better to just reduce their cost and perhaps spend points like techmarine gunners where their BS goes up or something like that.

**Martel732**

Balance CAN be consistency. Consistency is a bit of a crutch, really. That's why Warcraft II was easy to balance; most units were mirror images of each other. But for Starcraft I, the math got a LOT more difficult. Maps also have to be drawn in RTS games to be balanced. Too many choke points, and zerg are at a disadvantage. Too many cliffs, and marines are too good, etc..

Automatically Appended Next Post:

-v10mega wrote:
Like I said... preds are not that good, giving them traits wont help them as much, its better to just reduce their cost and perhaps spend points like techmarine gunners where their BS goes up or something like that.

Then charge them less for the traits.

**-v10mega**

AaronWilson wrote:
You know what balance is?

It's not consistency.

If Eldar were all -1 to hit.

And marines all got to re-roll charge distances.

That could be balanced, if game, point system & mechanics made it so.

A balanced game is something a game designer creates with lots of levers in place, like points, scenarios, army rules etc.

Was that guided towards me?

**AaronWilson**

-v10mega wrote:
AaronWilson wrote:
You know what balance is?

It's not consistency.

If Eldar were all -1 to hit.

And marines all got to re-roll charge distances.

That could be balanced, if game, point system & mechanics made it so.

A balanced game is something a game designer creates with lots of levers in place, like points, scenarios, army rules etc.

Was that guided towards me?

It was guided towards anyone who thinks balance is a direct correlation to one single lever (Aka if everything is consistent, it's balanced) because it's just not true.

**-v10mega**

@Aaron Agreed.

**Bharring**

If you balance the armies to their abilities, though, you might find that giving +1 to the FrogDogs Troops and Tanks reflex save would benefit them just as much as giving +1 to the SeaMonkeys Troops reflex save alone. Because of asymetries in the game make it a much bigger deal for the super dodgy SeaMonkeys than the super durable FrogDogs.

**Xenomancers**

AaronWilson wrote:
You know what balance is?

It's not consistency.

If Eldar were all -1 to hit.

And marines all got to re-roll charge distances.

That could be balanced, if game, point system & mechanics made it so.

A balanced game is something a game designer creates with lots of levers in place, like points, scenarios, army rules etc.

I agree - but if all falcons get -1 to hit and all predators get NOTHING - how can that possibly be balanced - unless a predator is significantly cheaper than a falcon - WHICH it is not - in fact - its 50 points more expensive on average - with less wounds - less movement - less options - less upgrades.

**Martel732**

Xenomancers wrote:
AaronWilson wrote:
You know what balance is?

It's not consistency.

If Eldar were all -1 to hit.

And marines all got to re-roll charge distances.

That could be balanced, if game, point system & mechanics made it so.

A balanced game is something a game designer creates with lots of levers in place, like points, scenarios, army rules etc.

I agree - but if all falcons get -1 to hit and all predators get NOTHING - how can that possibly be balanced - unless a predator is significantly cheaper than a falcon - WHICH it is not - in fact - its 50 points more expensive on average - with less wounds - less movement - less options - less upgrades.

I think the argument is that marines make it back elsewhere.

**Bharring**

And, even with the points increase, doesn't that Assault Cannon Razorback still outperform the Samm-Hain Wave Serpent?

One of the problems GW has with special traits for everyone is that people complain when they aren't identical. The main reason is lazyness, but these "they aren't identical!" complaints are problematic, too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Pred also gets 4 shots to the BL Falcons 3.

The Pred is S9 to the BL Faclons S8.

The Pred has 4 shots at 48" range. The Falcon has 2 at 48", 1 at 36"

The Alaitoc trait is quite nice. But the Pred has much, much better shooting. And you're taking it for it's shooting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Also, only Alaitoc Falcons outside 12" get it. That's probably most Falcons, but it's a lot easier to close in on a Falcon with it's shorter range than a Pred.)

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
AaronWilson wrote:
You know what balance is?

It's not consistency.

If Eldar were all -1 to hit.

And marines all got to re-roll charge distances.

That could be balanced, if game, point system & mechanics made it so.

A balanced game is something a game designer creates with lots of levers in place, like points, scenarios, army rules etc.

I agree - but if all falcons get -1 to hit and all predators get NOTHING - how can that possibly be balanced - unless a predator is significantly cheaper than a falcon - WHICH it is not - in fact - its 50 points more expensive on average - with less wounds - less movement - less options - less upgrades.

Perhaps the Predator has access to more buffs?

Perhaps the Predator has more and better guns?

Perhaps the Predator's role in the army is different than that of a Falcon?

Perhaps the stratagems available exclusively to Predators (e.g. Killshot) are different than the ones available exclusively to Falcons (e.g. none?)?

Perhaps there are more Warlord Traits that can affect Predators than can affect Falcons?

Perhaps the Predators have better access to repairs than Falcons?

etc. etc.

There's a lot going on in this game, so comparing one thing to one other thing with so many moving parts is like ripping a tiny piston out of some huge machine and comparing it to a log and being like "gee, this tiny piston is so small and less flexible than this huge log, how could it possibly match in importance!" while the machine explodes in the background because you ripped a piece out of it.

**Xenomancers**

Martel732 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
AaronWilson wrote:
You know what balance is?

It's not consistency.

If Eldar were all -1 to hit.

And marines all got to re-roll charge distances.

That could be balanced, if game, point system & mechanics made it so.

A balanced game is something a game designer creates with lots of levers in place, like points, scenarios, army rules etc.

I agree - but if all falcons get -1 to hit and all predators get NOTHING - how can that possibly be balanced - unless a predator is significantly cheaper than a falcon - WHICH it is not - in fact - its 50 points more expensive on average - with less wounds - less movement - less options - less upgrades.

I think the argument is that marines make it back elsewhere.

Prove it then. What makes space marine vehicals so good that they shouldn't get the free traits every other army gets?

**sennacherib**

-v10mega wrote:
^^ Having traits available to all units for every codex is not balanced.

This ...

Is every unit in the game could use alpha legion traits or nightlords traits there could be some serious problems. Don’t get me wrong. Infiltrating a close combat defiler into the enemy lines, backed by lines of tanks screened by infantry that are all -1 to hit would be great for chaos players. As A deathguard player, being able to move and fire with no penalty on hw would make my armor a lot more powerful. Nightlords where everything generated -1 to moral tests. Sounds awesome.

All these arguments demanding consistency are flawed from the get go. Consistency is checkers or chess. Warhammer 40k represents wildly divergent factions like Demi humans, space elves, alien hive minds. There is no need, Merrit, preexisting statute that states consistency. There has never been consistency.

Maybe the game designers 2anted to emphasize infantry dreads and bikes role on the battle field.

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:Prove it then. What makes space marine vehicals so good that they shouldn't get the free traits every other army gets?

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Perhaps the Predator has access to more (or at least more reliable) buffs?

Perhaps the Predator has more and better guns?

Perhaps the Predator's role in the army is different than that of a Falcon?

Perhaps the stratagems available exclusively to Predators (e.g. Killshot) are different than the ones available exclusively to Falcons (e.g. none?)?

Perhaps there are more Warlord Traits that can affect Predators than can affect Falcons?

Perhaps the Predators have better access to repairs than Falcons?

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
And, even with the points increase, doesn't that Assault Cannon Razorback still outperform the Samm-Hain Wave Serpent?

One of the problems GW has with special traits for everyone is that people complain when they aren't identical. The main reason is lazyness, but these "they aren't identical!" complaints are problematic, too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Pred also gets 4 shots to the BL Falcons 3.

The Pred is S9 to the BL Faclons S8.

The Pred has 4 shots at 48" range. The Falcon has 2 at 48", 1 at 36"

The Alaitoc trait is quite nice. But the Pred has much, much better shooting. And you're taking it for it's shooting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Also, only Alaitoc Falcons outside 12" get it. That's probably most Falcons, but it's a lot easier to close in on a Falcon with it's shorter range than a Pred.)

Yeah...it also costs more and is only better in certain situations - the falcon is better vs 3 wound models because the pulse laser does flat 3 damage and it's shuriken cannon gives it the edge against meq. The pred also costs more and is less durable. I'm really not seeing any discrepancy to deny the pred access to an army trait which the falcon has access to.

**-v10mega**

"Prove it then. What makes space marine vehicals so good that they shouldn't get the free traits every other army gets?"

Its not what makes the vehicles in the space marines so good. Its what you give them that makes your army so good. The codex is obviously build with the idea that your hqs buff your units. When you have a chapter master and a lieutenant supporting one predator, your marginal utility is low. And thats dumb if you do it like that. However, if you have a chapter master and a lieutenant surrounded by multiple preds and some tac marines your marginal utility goes up by a crap ton. The falcon is made to be independent thats why its faster, and has better upgrades but it pales when you have a pred that has killshot and and buffs. Now, you may say these buffs come at the cost of the Lt and the Chapter Master but they also benefit the rest of the army too. Eldar seems to work independent from each other, each unit is a machine. The space marines are each a specific cog in one big machine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh the Pred is made to kill big things thats why it has lascannons, you want to talk infantry killing? take an as-back at a cheaper price and let it rip hordes apart

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
Bharring wrote:
And, even with the points increase, doesn't that Assault Cannon Razorback still outperform the Samm-Hain Wave Serpent?

One of the problems GW has with special traits for everyone is that people complain when they aren't identical. The main reason is lazyness, but these "they aren't identical!" complaints are problematic, too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Pred also gets 4 shots to the BL Falcons 3.

The Pred is S9 to the BL Faclons S8.

The Pred has 4 shots at 48" range. The Falcon has 2 at 48", 1 at 36"

The Alaitoc trait is quite nice. But the Pred has much, much better shooting. And you're taking it for it's shooting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Also, only Alaitoc Falcons outside 12" get it. That's probably most Falcons, but it's a lot easier to close in on a Falcon with it's shorter range than a Pred.)

Yeah...it also costs more and is only better in certain situations - the falcon is better vs 3 wound models because the pulse laser does flat 3 damage and it's shuriken cannon gives it the edge against meq. The pred also costs more and is less durable. I'm really not seeing any discrepancy to deny the pred access to an army trait which the falcon has access to.

You can't say the Falcon is better vs 3 wound models. It could be, if you roll all 1s and 2s for the predator, or it could not be, if you roll all 3+s. But since we can use mathammer, we know that over 100 games, the Predator's damage will be a fairly consistent 3-4, and the Falcon's damage will never exceed 3. So no, the Falcon is not better vs 3 wound models.

The Falcon may have a small edge vs MEQ, but it is very very small.

Durability wise: yes, the Pred is less durable - but the Predator has easy access to repairs, as well as a stratagem specifically designed to buff it, while the Falcon does not (the Bonesinger is a limited-time-only thing without rules in the 'dex). So depending on your repair roles the Predator might have more durability - that said, then you have to include part of the points cost of the Techmarine (whatever the Techmarine pays to be able to repair tanks) and so on and so forth.

Really they're just very different vehicles, and imo that's a good thing. Access (or not!) to army traits is just one of myriad small differences.

**sennacherib**

The Current argument might make SM players sound a little less entitled if it was reframed to address the sense that space elves are still getting the slightly OP treatment they have been for the last 2 codex. I would agree very much that I would like space elves to be more on an even playing field as everyone else in terms of internal game balance.

The current argument sounds like “they have something shinny and cool and we wants it.” Give us a bigger win button.

**Xenomancers**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Bharring wrote:
And, even with the points increase, doesn't that Assault Cannon Razorback still outperform the Samm-Hain Wave Serpent?

One of the problems GW has with special traits for everyone is that people complain when they aren't identical. The main reason is lazyness, but these "they aren't identical!" complaints are problematic, too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Pred also gets 4 shots to the BL Falcons 3.

The Pred is S9 to the BL Faclons S8.

The Pred has 4 shots at 48" range. The Falcon has 2 at 48", 1 at 36"

The Alaitoc trait is quite nice. But the Pred has much, much better shooting. And you're taking it for it's shooting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Also, only Alaitoc Falcons outside 12" get it. That's probably most Falcons, but it's a lot easier to close in on a Falcon with it's shorter range than a Pred.)

Yeah...it also costs more and is only better in certain situations - the falcon is better vs 3 wound models because the pulse laser does flat 3 damage and it's shuriken cannon gives it the edge against meq. The pred also costs more and is less durable. I'm really not seeing any discrepancy to deny the pred access to an army trait which the falcon has access to.

You can't say the Falcon is better vs 3 wound models. It could be, if you roll all 1s and 2s for the predator, or it could not be, if you roll all 3+s. But since we can use mathammer, we know that over 100 games, the Predator's damage will be a fairly consistent 3-4, and the Falcon's damage will never exceed 3. So no, the Falcon is not better vs 3 wound models.

The Falcon may have a small edge vs MEQ, but it is very very small.

Durability wise: yes, the Pred is less durable - but the Predator has easy access to repairs, as well as a stratagem specifically designed to buff it, while the Falcon does not (the Bonesinger is a limited-time-only thing without rules in the 'dex). So depending on your repair roles the Predator might have more durability - that said, then you have to include part of the points cost of the Techmarine (whatever the Techmarine pays to be able to repair tanks) and so on and so forth.

Really they're just very different vehicles, and imo that's a good thing. Access (or not!) to army traits is just one of myriad small differences.

A pulse laser kills a 3 wound model 100% of the time with a failed save. Where as a las cannon kills a 3 wound model with a failed save only 66% of the time. IT IS BETTER. THIS IS FACT.

**-v10mega**

But then why are you taking lascannons to kill a three wound model? Use your autocannon, there is your 100%

**sennacherib**

And why do we care about 3 wound models so much. Sm are 1 wound. Terminators 2 wounds. Most special characters like lords are at least 4

**-v10mega**

Preds are meant to kill BIG THINGS not three wound models, thats why the autocannon exists

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Bharring wrote:
And, even with the points increase, doesn't that Assault Cannon Razorback still outperform the Samm-Hain Wave Serpent?

One of the problems GW has with special traits for everyone is that people complain when they aren't identical. The main reason is lazyness, but these "they aren't identical!" complaints are problematic, too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Pred also gets 4 shots to the BL Falcons 3.

The Pred is S9 to the BL Faclons S8.

The Pred has 4 shots at 48" range. The Falcon has 2 at 48", 1 at 36"

The Alaitoc trait is quite nice. But the Pred has much, much better shooting. And you're taking it for it's shooting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Also, only Alaitoc Falcons outside 12" get it. That's probably most Falcons, but it's a lot easier to close in on a Falcon with it's shorter range than a Pred.)

Yeah...it also costs more and is only better in certain situations - the falcon is better vs 3 wound models because the pulse laser does flat 3 damage and it's shuriken cannon gives it the edge against meq. The pred also costs more and is less durable. I'm really not seeing any discrepancy to deny the pred access to an army trait which the falcon has access to.

You can't say the Falcon is better vs 3 wound models. It could be, if you roll all 1s and 2s for the predator, or it could not be, if you roll all 3+s. But since we can use mathammer, we know that over 100 games, the Predator's damage will be a fairly consistent 3-4, and the Falcon's damage will never exceed 3. So no, the Falcon is not better vs 3 wound models.

The Falcon may have a small edge vs MEQ, but it is very very small.

Durability wise: yes, the Pred is less durable - but the Predator has easy access to repairs, as well as a stratagem specifically designed to buff it, while the Falcon does not (the Bonesinger is a limited-time-only thing without rules in the 'dex). So depending on your repair roles the Predator might have more durability - that said, then you have to include part of the points cost of the Techmarine (whatever the Techmarine pays to be able to repair tanks) and so on and so forth.

Really they're just very different vehicles, and imo that's a good thing. Access (or not!) to army traits is just one of myriad small differences.

A pulse laser kills a 3 wound model 100% of the time with a failed save. Where as a las cannon kills a 3 wound model with a failed save only 66% of the time. IT IS BETTER. THIS IS FACT.

Oh I forgot you were xenomancers and prone to hyperbole. Do you think autocannons are better against two wound models than lascannons?

I know I'd sweat my dick off if a lascannon was shooting my bike more than an autocannon...