Proof that space marine codex is the worst.

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**Slayer-Fan123**

Is someone really making the argument that repairing a Predator being easier is a highlight?

Techmarines and the Traitor counterpart are pretty damn bad at the moment because of how bad the repairs are.

**Unit1126PLL**

Oh right, the Predator autocannon also does 3 damage, because their autocannon is a special snowflake Marine autocannon. Hold on, let me exercise my ability to be Xenomancers:

OMG the Baneblade autocannon is completely gakky compared to the Predator autocannon.

For the sake of consistency please, give the Baneblade's autocannon 2d3 shots and 3 flat damage! It's only consistent across the design space and the Baneblade certainly pays for it!

I mean, it's better than a lascannon, because mumble mumble 3 wounds models mumble.

**Xenomancers**

sennacherib wrote:
The Current argument might make SM players sound a little less entitled if it was reframed to address the sense that space elves are still getting the slightly OP treatment they have been for the last 2 codex. I would agree very much that I would like space elves to be more on an even playing field as everyone else in terms of internal game balance.

The current argument sounds like “they have something shinny and cool and we wants it.” Give us a bigger win button.

Pretty standard response from a marine hater actually. Marines point out obvious unbalance and get accused of wanting free wins. You are also in complete denial if you think marines have had a good codex since like 3rd eddition. It's been hands down one of the worst in every edition (if you actually look at it). Then in 7th when they had a brief time in the sun because they were the first army to get a 7.5 codex and formations. Then they settled out real quickly. Once heretic rules came out and demonic incursion. Those were the real OP armies of 7th. OH AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW - they are back at it again. Also - do you remember soulburst? How do you think ynnari panned out against gladius? Most the people I knew stopped playing once ynnari came out because it was literally unbeatable unless you were playing daemons.

**-v10mega**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Bharring wrote:
And, even with the points increase, doesn't that Assault Cannon Razorback still outperform the Samm-Hain Wave Serpent?

One of the problems GW has with special traits for everyone is that people complain when they aren't identical. The main reason is lazyness, but these "they aren't identical!" complaints are problematic, too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Pred also gets 4 shots to the BL Falcons 3.

The Pred is S9 to the BL Faclons S8.

The Pred has 4 shots at 48" range. The Falcon has 2 at 48", 1 at 36"

The Alaitoc trait is quite nice. But the Pred has much, much better shooting. And you're taking it for it's shooting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Also, only Alaitoc Falcons outside 12" get it. That's probably most Falcons, but it's a lot easier to close in on a Falcon with it's shorter range than a Pred.)

Yeah...it also costs more and is only better in certain situations - the falcon is better vs 3 wound models because the pulse laser does flat 3 damage and it's shuriken cannon gives it the edge against meq. The pred also costs more and is less durable. I'm really not seeing any discrepancy to deny the pred access to an army trait which the falcon has access to.

You can't say the Falcon is better vs 3 wound models. It could be, if you roll all 1s and 2s for the predator, or it could not be, if you roll all 3+s. But since we can use mathammer, we know that over 100 games, the Predator's damage will be a fairly consistent 3-4, and the Falcon's damage will never exceed 3. So no, the Falcon is not better vs 3 wound models.

The Falcon may have a small edge vs MEQ, but it is very very small.

Durability wise: yes, the Pred is less durable - but the Predator has easy access to repairs, as well as a stratagem specifically designed to buff it, while the Falcon does not (the Bonesinger is a limited-time-only thing without rules in the 'dex). So depending on your repair roles the Predator might have more durability - that said, then you have to include part of the points cost of the Techmarine (whatever the Techmarine pays to be able to repair tanks) and so on and so forth.

Really they're just very different vehicles, and imo that's a good thing. Access (or not!) to army traits is just one of myriad small differences.

A pulse laser kills a 3 wound model 100% of the time with a failed save. Where as a las cannon kills a 3 wound model with a failed save only 66% of the time. IT IS BETTER. THIS IS FACT.

Oh I forgot you were xenomancers and prone to hyperbole. Do you think autocannons are better against two wound models than lascannons?

I know I'd sweat my dick off if a lascannon was shooting my bike more than an autocannon...

Wait... autocannon turret and lascannon sponsons do better vs. space marine bikes than the 4 lascannon variant

**Martel732**

The autocannon is the whip in my opinion. AND it might get a price drop in Chapter Approved. $$$ Predator itself is super generic and could use a bit of a price drop, too.

**Unit1126PLL**

-v10mega wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Bharring wrote:
And, even with the points increase, doesn't that Assault Cannon Razorback still outperform the Samm-Hain Wave Serpent?

One of the problems GW has with special traits for everyone is that people complain when they aren't identical. The main reason is lazyness, but these "they aren't identical!" complaints are problematic, too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Pred also gets 4 shots to the BL Falcons 3.

The Pred is S9 to the BL Faclons S8.

The Pred has 4 shots at 48" range. The Falcon has 2 at 48", 1 at 36"

The Alaitoc trait is quite nice. But the Pred has much, much better shooting. And you're taking it for it's shooting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Also, only Alaitoc Falcons outside 12" get it. That's probably most Falcons, but it's a lot easier to close in on a Falcon with it's shorter range than a Pred.)

Yeah...it also costs more and is only better in certain situations - the falcon is better vs 3 wound models because the pulse laser does flat 3 damage and it's shuriken cannon gives it the edge against meq. The pred also costs more and is less durable. I'm really not seeing any discrepancy to deny the pred access to an army trait which the falcon has access to.

You can't say the Falcon is better vs 3 wound models. It could be, if you roll all 1s and 2s for the predator, or it could not be, if you roll all 3+s. But since we can use mathammer, we know that over 100 games, the Predator's damage will be a fairly consistent 3-4, and the Falcon's damage will never exceed 3. So no, the Falcon is not better vs 3 wound models.

The Falcon may have a small edge vs MEQ, but it is very very small.

Durability wise: yes, the Pred is less durable - but the Predator has easy access to repairs, as well as a stratagem specifically designed to buff it, while the Falcon does not (the Bonesinger is a limited-time-only thing without rules in the 'dex). So depending on your repair roles the Predator might have more durability - that said, then you have to include part of the points cost of the Techmarine (whatever the Techmarine pays to be able to repair tanks) and so on and so forth.

Really they're just very different vehicles, and imo that's a good thing. Access (or not!) to army traits is just one of myriad small differences.

A pulse laser kills a 3 wound model 100% of the time with a failed save. Where as a las cannon kills a 3 wound model with a failed save only 66% of the time. IT IS BETTER. THIS IS FACT.

Oh I forgot you were xenomancers and prone to hyperbole. Do you think autocannons are better against two wound models than lascannons?

I know I'd sweat my dick off if a lascannon was shooting my bike more than an autocannon...

Wait... autocannon turret and lascannon sponsons do better vs. space marine bikes than the 4 lascannon variant

That's true, actually, though I think it's partly due to the completely design inconsistent and inexplicable autocannon changes for the special-snowflake Marines who keep getting rules that no one else has. I mean, just try to have some consistency GW!

**Xenomancers**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Oh right, the Predator autocannon also does 3 damage, because their autocannon is a special snowflake Marine autocannon. Hold on, let me exercise my ability to be Xenomancers:

OMG the Baneblade autocannon is completely gakky compared to the Predator autocannon.

For the sake of consistency please, give the Baneblade's autocannon 2d3 shots and 3 flat damage! It's only consistent across the design space and the Baneblade certainly pays for it!

I mean, it's better than a lascannon, because mumble mumble 3 wounds models mumble.

It's been a standard autocannon for 7 editions. It's normally been excessively cheap now they charge you as much as 2 las cannons for it. In order to charge you 49 points for something - it needed to be a little better didn't it? I fail to see the special snowflake argument here. Marines have 2 main guns on their MBT but guard have 3 times as many...IMO that is special snow flake. How many armies do you see today with their MBT running around with all these different cannons?

**Martel732**

Let me put this another way. The predator with 48" guns is WAY better than anything my CC-oriented chapter can do in CC. Ultramarines can Bobby G buff their predators. Maybe it's not as good as razorbacks, but sometimes its better.

**-v10mega**

Xenomancers wrote:
sennacherib wrote:
The Current argument might make SM players sound a little less entitled if it was reframed to address the sense that space elves are still getting the slightly OP treatment they have been for the last 2 codex. I would agree very much that I would like space elves to be more on an even playing field as everyone else in terms of internal game balance.

The current argument sounds like “they have something shinny and cool and we wants it.” Give us a bigger win button.

Pretty standard response from a marine hater actually. Marines point out obvious unbalance and get accused of wanting free wins. You are also in complete denial if you think marines have had a good codex since like 3rd eddition. It's been hands down one of the worst in every edition (if you actually look at it). Then in 7th when they had a brief time in the sun because they were the first army to get a 7.5 codex and formations. Then they settled out real quickly. Once heretic rules came out and demonic incursion. Those were the real OP armies of 7th. OH AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW - they are back at it again. Also - do you remember soulburst? How do you think ynnari panned out against gladius? Most the people I knew stopped playing once ynnari came out because it was literally unbeatable unless you were playing daemons.

Wait wait wait.... Marines sucked in 6th? Hello deathstars? Marines had a lot of time under the sun in 7th...actually up until the very end...and even then deathstars made that codex amazing. Oh and what do you know? DA battle company won second place in the LVO and took best overall for ITC....so....?

**Xenomancers**

Martel732 wrote:
The autocannon is the whip in my opinion. AND it might get a price drop in Chapter Approved. $$$ Predator itself is super generic and could use a bit of a price drop, too.

I think they drop it 9 points. Makes no sense. All the changes you can make and you take probably one of the most balanced weapons and drop it's price...ODD. What needed to happen was the base pred needed a price drop. The basic pred shoud start at the same cost as a rhino and whatever they want to charge for 1 wound and -10 transport capacity. It's literally a plus 1 wound rhino without weapons and no transport.

**Martel732**

Maybe base pred gets a drop, too. Who knows?

**Unit1126PLL**

TBF rather than giving Preds chapter tactics and Grinding Advance, I actually would be comfortable with a price drop.

I'm not sure they're overpriced right now (really I'm not, I have no data) but if they're being outperformed by a dedicated transport option, then they certainly need a drop. I suppose one can infer that they're overpriced from that datum alone, so they probably are.

**Xenomancers**

-v10mega wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
sennacherib wrote:
The Current argument might make SM players sound a little less entitled if it was reframed to address the sense that space elves are still getting the slightly OP treatment they have been for the last 2 codex. I would agree very much that I would like space elves to be more on an even playing field as everyone else in terms of internal game balance.

The current argument sounds like “they have something shinny and cool and we wants it.” Give us a bigger win button.

Pretty standard response from a marine hater actually. Marines point out obvious unbalance and get accused of wanting free wins. You are also in complete denial if you think marines have had a good codex since like 3rd eddition. It's been hands down one of the worst in every edition (if you actually look at it). Then in 7th when they had a brief time in the sun because they were the first army to get a 7.5 codex and formations. Then they settled out real quickly. Once heretic rules came out and demonic incursion. Those were the real OP armies of 7th. OH AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW - they are back at it again. Also - do you remember soulburst? How do you think ynnari panned out against gladius? Most the people I knew stopped playing once ynnari came out because it was literally unbeatable unless you were playing daemons.

Wait wait wait.... Marines sucked in 6th? Hello deathstars? Marines had a lot of time under the sun in 7th...actually up until the very end...and even then deathstars made that codex amazing. Oh and what do you know? DA battle company won second place in the LVO and took best overall for ITC....so....?

That DA battle company didn't have a pack of 50 ferensian wolves and a wolf lord in it did it? Wait...it did.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Oh right, the Predator autocannon also does 3 damage, because their autocannon is a special snowflake Marine autocannon. Hold on, let me exercise my ability to be Xenomancers:

OMG the Baneblade autocannon is completely gakky compared to the Predator autocannon.

For the sake of consistency please, give the Baneblade's autocannon 2d3 shots and 3 flat damage! It's only consistent across the design space and the Baneblade certainly pays for it!

I mean, it's better than a lascannon, because mumble mumble 3 wounds models mumble.

I'd understand your complaint if it weren't one of two Autocannons in the entire codex. Second one is on Dreads, which is TL but still has the appropriate stats (and is also only in the Index, for what it's worth to ya).

And come to think of it, Autocannons don't pop up much for CSM either. Basic power armor can grab it (Chaos Marines can get up to 2, Chosen get 1, and Havocs up to 4), but after that you got the Predator one and that's it.

**-v10mega**

Oh and space marines dont function by having an MBT thats a guard thing. Plus the Pred had 2 main guns... the lascannon and the autocannon... Guard has the battlecannon, lascannon, and HB thats not 3x as many thats one extra.

**Martel732**

On average, they are being outperformed by a transport. As I said, in some cases, the autolas pred is much better.

**Unit1126PLL**

-v10mega wrote:
Oh and space marines dont function by having an MBT thats a guard thing. Plus the Pred had 2 main guns... the lascannon and the autocannon... Guard has the battlecannon, lascannon, and HB thats not 3x as many thats one extra.

I think they meant main-gun options; as in, the Leman Russ has ~12 (I think) variants.

And to be fair to them, they're right. The Imperial Guard has more options for their superheavies than the SM have for their predators, until you include FW (and I CBF to look at FW but I'd say there's a good bet even if you include it the Guard have more superheavy options than the marines have MBT options).

**-v10mega**

Xenomancers wrote:
-v10mega wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
sennacherib wrote:
The Current argument might make SM players sound a little less entitled if it was reframed to address the sense that space elves are still getting the slightly OP treatment they have been for the last 2 codex. I would agree very much that I would like space elves to be more on an even playing field as everyone else in terms of internal game balance.

The current argument sounds like “they have something shinny and cool and we wants it.” Give us a bigger win button.

Pretty standard response from a marine hater actually. Marines point out obvious unbalance and get accused of wanting free wins. You are also in complete denial if you think marines have had a good codex since like 3rd eddition. It's been hands down one of the worst in every edition (if you actually look at it). Then in 7th when they had a brief time in the sun because they were the first army to get a 7.5 codex and formations. Then they settled out real quickly. Once heretic rules came out and demonic incursion. Those were the real OP armies of 7th. OH AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW - they are back at it again. Also - do you remember soulburst? How do you think ynnari panned out against gladius? Most the people I knew stopped playing once ynnari came out because it was literally unbeatable unless you were playing daemons.

Wait wait wait.... Marines sucked in 6th? Hello deathstars? Marines had a lot of time under the sun in 7th...actually up until the very end...and even then deathstars made that codex amazing. Oh and what do you know? DA battle company won second place in the LVO and took best overall for ITC....so....?

That DA battle company didn't have a pack of 50 ferensian wolves and a wolf lord in it did it? Wait...it did.

Ya and most of his army was? What? Space marines? would you look at that...

**Xenomancers**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
TBF rather than giving Preds chapter tactics and Grinding Advance, I actually would be comfortable with a price drop.

I'm not sure they're overpriced right now (really I'm not, I have no data) but if they're being outperformed by a dedicated transport option, then they certainly need a drop. I suppose one can infer that they're overpriced from that datum alone, so they probably are.

I'm not even saying that the preditor is outperfoming a falcon. They are about even IMO granted the pred costs more. However - the falcon gets an army trait - this pushes it over the edge.

**-v10mega**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
-v10mega wrote:
Oh and space marines dont function by having an MBT thats a guard thing. Plus the Pred had 2 main guns... the lascannon and the autocannon... Guard has the battlecannon, lascannon, and HB thats not 3x as many thats one extra.

I think they meant main-gun options; as in, the Leman Russ has ~12 (I think) variants.

And to be fair to them, they're right. The Imperial Guard has more options for their superheavies than the SM have for their predators, until you include FW (and I CBF to look at FW but I'd say there's a good bet even if you include it the Guard have more superheavy options than the marines have MBT options).

If thats the case I read it wrong... But are space marines known for their tanks? When you think of the codex, is the most iconic unit the pred? Or is it the tac marine/dreadnough/termies that all get traits. IG are known for their tanks, there are countless memes and stories about it.

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
TBF rather than giving Preds chapter tactics and Grinding Advance, I actually would be comfortable with a price drop.

I'm not sure they're overpriced right now (really I'm not, I have no data) but if they're being outperformed by a dedicated transport option, then they certainly need a drop. I suppose one can infer that they're overpriced from that datum alone, so they probably are.

I'm not even saying that the preditor is outperfoming a falcon. They are about even IMO granted the pred costs more. However - the falcon gets an army trait - this pushes it over the edge.

I'm not sure that pushes it over the edge. Some army traits are comparatively pointless for a Falcon, like the Saim-Hann one.

**Xenomancers**

-v10mega wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
-v10mega wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
sennacherib wrote:
The Current argument might make SM players sound a little less entitled if it was reframed to address the sense that space elves are still getting the slightly OP treatment they have been for the last 2 codex. I would agree very much that I would like space elves to be more on an even playing field as everyone else in terms of internal game balance.

The current argument sounds like “they have something shinny and cool and we wants it.” Give us a bigger win button.

Pretty standard response from a marine hater actually. Marines point out obvious unbalance and get accused of wanting free wins. You are also in complete denial if you think marines have had a good codex since like 3rd eddition. It's been hands down one of the worst in every edition (if you actually look at it). Then in 7th when they had a brief time in the sun because they were the first army to get a 7.5 codex and formations. Then they settled out real quickly. Once heretic rules came out and demonic incursion. Those were the real OP armies of 7th. OH AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW - they are back at it again. Also - do you remember soulburst? How do you think ynnari panned out against gladius? Most the people I knew stopped playing once ynnari came out because it was literally unbeatable unless you were playing daemons.

Wait wait wait.... Marines sucked in 6th? Hello deathstars? Marines had a lot of time under the sun in 7th...actually up until the very end...and even then deathstars made that codex amazing. Oh and what do you know? DA battle company won second place in the LVO and took best overall for ITC....so....?

That DA battle company didn't have a pack of 50 ferensian wolves and a wolf lord in it did it? Wait...it did.

Ya and most of his army was? What? Space marines? would you look at that...

Pretty sure the invisble wolf star that obliterated his opponents by tying up the entire enemy force by turn 2 played a much bigger factor than the free razorbacks. They were just objective secured after thoughs that took up space. 7th eddition as a whole should just be forgotten anyways. Death-stars were an absolute joke. Imperial armies and daemons did deathstars the best I am not going to argue that - I really don't care about that though. Invisibility and 2++ rerolls were the champion of 7th eddition - nothing else was.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
TBF rather than giving Preds chapter tactics and Grinding Advance, I actually would be comfortable with a price drop.

I'm not sure they're overpriced right now (really I'm not, I have no data) but if they're being outperformed by a dedicated transport option, then they certainly need a drop. I suppose one can infer that they're overpriced from that datum alone, so they probably are.

I'm not even saying that the preditor is outperfoming a falcon. They are about even IMO granted the pred costs more. However - the falcon gets an army trait - this pushes it over the edge.

I'm not sure that pushes it over the edge. Some army traits are comparatively pointless for a Falcon, like the Saim-Hann one.

Really? It would be pretty useful in a fight against a predator considering it has the fly keyword and the marine one doesn't. I have actually done this in game - with a serpent though - the reroll charge would make it even more effective.

**sennacherib**

Hopefully no one is sweating that much.

However, why the fury about killing 3 wound models. How many are there that makes this such a huge deal.

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
Really? It would be pretty useful in a fight against a predator considering it has the fly keyword and the marine one doesn't. I have actually done this in game - with a serpent though - the reroll charge would make it even more effective.

If you say so. To be frank, my Baneblades are more afraid of Predator Annihilators than Falcons, even if the Falcon gets the army trait of re-rolling charge distances.

In fact, so are my Inquisition. And my SoB are more afraid of Predator Destructors than Falcons, eve if the Falcon gets said army trait.

I'm not sure it "puts it over the top" when compared to a Pred. I'm just not.

Though I do agree the base Predator could use a price drop; perhaps make it cost the same as a base Razorback? (unless they already do, then derp!)

**Xenomancers**

sennacherib wrote:
Hopefully no one is sweating that much.

However, why the fury about killing 3 wound models. How many are there that makes this such a huge deal.

Don't obliterators have 3 wounds? One of the most competitive units in the game?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
-v10mega wrote:
Oh and space marines dont function by having an MBT thats a guard thing. Plus the Pred had 2 main guns... the lascannon and the autocannon... Guard has the battlecannon, lascannon, and HB thats not 3x as many thats one extra.

I think they meant main-gun options; as in, the Leman Russ has ~12 (I think) variants.

And to be fair to them, they're right. The Imperial Guard has more options for their superheavies than the SM have for their predators, until you include FW (and I CBF to look at FW but I'd say there's a good bet even if you include it the Guard have more superheavy options than the marines have MBT options).

Yeah so you can't say special snow flake

**sennacherib**

[spoiler]

Xenomancers wrote:
-v10mega wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
-v10mega wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
sennacherib wrote:
The Current argument might make SM players sound a little less entitled if it was reframed to address the sense that space elves are still getting the slightly OP treatment they have been for the last 2 codex. I would agree very much that I would like space elves to be more on an even playing field as everyone else in terms of internal game balance.

The current argument sounds like “they have something shinny and cool and we wants it.” Give us a bigger win button.

Pretty standard response from a marine hater actually. Marines point out obvious unbalance and get accused of wanting free wins. You are also in complete denial if you think marines have had a good codex since like 3rd eddition. It's been hands down one of the worst in every edition (if you actually look at it). Then in 7th when they had a brief time in the sun because they were the first army to get a 7.5 codex and formations. Then they settled out real quickly. Once heretic rules came out and demonic incursion. Those were the real OP armies of 7th. OH AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW - they are back at it again. Also - do you remember soulburst? How do you think ynnari panned out against gladius? Most the people I knew stopped playing once ynnari came out because it was literally unbeatable unless you were playing daemons.

Wait wait wait.... Marines sucked in 6th? Hello deathstars? Marines had a lot of time under the sun in 7th...actually up until the very end...and even then deathstars made that codex amazing. Oh and what do you know? DA battle company won second place in the LVO and took best overall for ITC....so....?

That DA battle company didn't have a pack of 50 ferensian wolves and a wolf lord in it did it? Wait...it did.

Ya and most of his army was? What? Space marines? would you look at that...

Pretty sure the invisble wolf star that obliterated his opponents by tying up the entire enemy force by turn 2 played a much bigger factor than the free razorbacks. They were just objective secured after thoughs that took up space. 7th eddition as a whole should just be forgotten anyways. Death-stars were an absolute joke. Imperial armies and daemons did deathstars the best I am not going to argue that - I really don't care about that though. Invisibility and 2++ rerolls were the champion of 7th eddition - nothing else was.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
TBF rather than giving Preds chapter tactics and Grinding Advance, I actually would be comfortable with a price drop.

I'm not sure they're overpriced right now (really I'm not, I have no data) but if they're being outperformed by a dedicated transport option, then they certainly need a drop. I suppose one can infer that they're overpriced from that datum alone, so they probably are.

I'm not even saying that the preditor is outperfoming a falcon. They are about even IMO granted the pred costs more. However - the falcon gets an army trait - this pushes it over the edge.

I'm not sure that pushes it over the edge. Some army traits are comparatively pointless for a Falcon, like the Saim-Hann one.

Really? It would be pretty useful in a fight against a predator considering it has the fly keyword and the marine one doesn't. I have actually done this in game - with a serpent though - the reroll charge would make it even more effective.

Problem being that you want to forget having a really solid codex for years. Your last edition codex, everything was at least decent, most things were good. Many tournaments were won with this allegedly bad codex. I played marines since 4th ed. They have remained consistently good. When 7th rolled around with 2+ fnp, every Vehicle being free, grav just sidelining many armies they were pretty great. But let’s just forget that. Fast forward to now when they are THE WORST and everyone else is a hater because they don’t understand how marines need more special rules and more special wargear.

**Xenomancers**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Really? It would be pretty useful in a fight against a predator considering it has the fly keyword and the marine one doesn't. I have actually done this in game - with a serpent though - the reroll charge would make it even more effective.

If you say so. To be frank, my Baneblades are more afraid of Predator Annihilators than Falcons, even if the Falcon gets the army trait of re-rolling charge distances.

In fact, so are my Inquisition. And my SoB are more afraid of Predator Destructors than Falcons, eve if the Falcon gets said army trait.

I'm not sure it "puts it over the top" when compared to a Pred. I'm just not.

Though I do agree the base Predator could use a price drop; perhaps make it cost the same as a base Razorback? (unless they already do, then derp!)

In all fairness. All super heavies struggle in this eddition. With the exception of the shadowsword - none of them are problematic and most probably pay too many points for how easy they are to kill. The shadowsword is a big problem though.

**sennacherib**

Well, marines have at least 1 good unit they can use. Shadowswords. Just ally that in and bam. 1 good unit. To bad the other 300 imperial units are all garbage compared to the eldar tanks.

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Really? It would be pretty useful in a fight against a predator considering it has the fly keyword and the marine one doesn't. I have actually done this in game - with a serpent though - the reroll charge would make it even more effective.

If you say so. To be frank, my Baneblades are more afraid of Predator Annihilators than Falcons, even if the Falcon gets the army trait of re-rolling charge distances.

In fact, so are my Inquisition. And my SoB are more afraid of Predator Destructors than Falcons, eve if the Falcon gets said army trait.

I'm not sure it "puts it over the top" when compared to a Pred. I'm just not.

Though I do agree the base Predator could use a price drop; perhaps make it cost the same as a base Razorback? (unless they already do, then derp!)

In all fairness. All super heavies struggle in this eddition. With the exception of the shadowsword - none of them are problematic and most probably pay too many points for how easy they are to kill. The shadowsword is a big problem though.

Really? I've essentially stopped playing my superheavies in the local area because of how too-good they are - right now, building an Inquisition list that's trying to be as close to mono-inquisition as possible (though unlike some players I acknowledge that a completely mono-list is essentially impossible).

**-v10mega**

eh...banehammer is also good.

@senn I was a chaos player all my life and made the switch in 8th ed, so I understand your pain when marine players refuse to ally in things when they've been telling us to ally when CSM was hot garbage