sennacherib wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Nids get allies! They get GSC and AM IIRC.

GSC is a non-trivial ally.

Forgot about them. Those are an amazing ally. I guess orks should be able to ally with space marines so thethat can sit at the bottom of the pile together.

 Marmatag wrote:

And for real, if people start arguing that Tyranids should use Guard to be competitive, and that's actually "ok," i'm going to get sick. Tyranids should be able to function as mono-faction, and not rely on freaking imperial over-powered pukefest guard. I absolutely hate that people try to spin this as some kind of normal.

 -v10mega wrote:
We shall see if the end of all these codicies if marines are truly the "worst" faction in the game... because that would be a first, and Im willing to put money right now that GK and Admech will be worse off

Martel732 wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:
We shall see if the end of all these codicies if marines are truly the "worst" faction in the game... because that would be a first, and Im willing to put money right now that GK and Admech will be worse off

Marines were the worst list in 2nd. Hands down. It wasn't even close. Admittedly, a long time ago, but it DID happen, and contributes to my bitterness.

Martel732 wrote:
That won't matter. They'll be assaulting guardsmen or termagants (banelings now, I hear). 40K did NOT need banelings with no micro.

" That's one of the reasons I don't like assault specialists, they often can't do anything in the shooting phase. For my marines I prefer units that can act in both phases, even if their assault strength isn't so hot. Just having the option to do something in the assault phase is better than not being able to do anything in the shooting phase, imo. Though my opinion differs on that when it comes to other armies."

I'm inclined to agree, which sucks for BA.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah so the first game of 8th I ever played I first turn assaulted stealth suits from tau with tactical marines. Actually lost in assault. Yeah...good thing I was utilizing those stats - with 1 attack and all.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That won't matter. They'll be assaulting guardsmen or termagants (banelings now, I hear). 40K did NOT need banelings with no micro.

" That's one of the reasons I don't like assault specialists, they often can't do anything in the shooting phase. For my marines I prefer units that can act in both phases, even if their assault strength isn't so hot. Just having the option to do something in the assault phase is better than not being able to do anything in the shooting phase, imo. Though my opinion differs on that when it comes to other armies."

I'm inclined to agree, which sucks for BA.

They will probably give thunderwolves and wolfen the fly keyword so they can jump over screens.

 -v10mega wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah so the first game of 8th I ever played I first turn assaulted stealth suits from tau with tactical marines. Actually lost in assault. Yeah...good thing I was utilizing those stats - with 1 attack and all.

Well tac marines dont do well in close combat....thats why your sarge exists. If you didnt kit him out with anything then why bother? Wouldnt it be better to shoot them instead if they were within rapid firing range?

Martel732 wrote:
You can be aggressive, but you hit chaff units, and end up trading 100 pts for 40 pts. Rinse and repeat for the chaff army until all marines are dead.

I have BA. I've tried to do as you describe, but I just run out of bodies way too fast. So now I just cower and shoot back. Doesn't usually work, but sometimes I can squeeze out maelstrom points at least.

Marines just lose the game of Screenhammer 40K. Because they have no screens.

Martel732 wrote:
That won't matter. They'll be assaulting guardsmen or termagants (banelings now, I hear). 40K did NOT need banelings with no micro.

" That's one of the reasons I don't like assault specialists, they often can't do anything in the shooting phase. For my marines I prefer units that can act in both phases, even if their assault strength isn't so hot. Just having the option to do something in the assault phase is better than not being able to do anything in the shooting phase, imo. Though my opinion differs on that when it comes to other armies."

I'm inclined to agree, which sucks for BA.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That won't matter. They'll be assaulting guardsmen or termagants (banelings now, I hear). 40K did NOT need banelings with no micro.

" That's one of the reasons I don't like assault specialists, they often can't do anything in the shooting phase. For my marines I prefer units that can act in both phases, even if their assault strength isn't so hot. Just having the option to do something in the assault phase is better than not being able to do anything in the shooting phase, imo. Though my opinion differs on that when it comes to other armies."

I'm inclined to agree, which sucks for BA.

They will probably give thunderwolves and wolfen the fly keyword so they can jump over screens.

Nah it'll be called Wolfleap or something like that.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah so the first game of 8th I ever played I first turn assaulted stealth suits from tau with tactical marines. Actually lost in assault. Yeah...good thing I was utilizing those stats - with 1 attack and all.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That won't matter. They'll be assaulting guardsmen or termagants (banelings now, I hear). 40K did NOT need banelings with no micro.

" That's one of the reasons I don't like assault specialists, they often can't do anything in the shooting phase. For my marines I prefer units that can act in both phases, even if their assault strength isn't so hot. Just having the option to do something in the assault phase is better than not being able to do anything in the shooting phase, imo. Though my opinion differs on that when it comes to other armies."

I'm inclined to agree, which sucks for BA.

They will probably give thunderwolves and wolfen the fly keyword so they can jump over screens.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah so the first game of 8th I ever played I first turn assaulted stealth suits from tau with tactical marines. Actually lost in assault. Yeah...good thing I was utilizing those stats - with 1 attack and all.

Well tac marines dont do well in close combat....thats why your sarge exists. If you didnt kit him out with anything then why bother? Wouldnt it be better to shoot them instead if they were within rapid firing range?

I did both obviously. You simply can't kit your Sargent out with anything. Maybe a power sword now because it's only 4 points but more often than not it's a waste of points - much like bringing tactical marines in any sense is a waste of points. I thought they were supposed to be good at everything but just great at nothing. The reality is - they are bad at everything and cost more points as a result.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah so the first game of 8th I ever played I first turn assaulted stealth suits from tau with tactical marines. Actually lost in assault. Yeah...good thing I was utilizing those stats - with 1 attack and all.

Then that's quite possibly an example of you making a poor tactical choice. Don't blame the game for that.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can be aggressive, but you hit chaff units, and end up trading 100 pts for 40 pts. Rinse and repeat for the chaff army until all marines are dead.

I have BA. I've tried to do as you describe, but I just run out of bodies way too fast. So now I just cower and shoot back. Doesn't usually work, but sometimes I can squeeze out maelstrom points at least.

Marines just lose the game of Screenhammer 40K. Because they have no screens.

Martel732 wrote:
That won't matter. They'll be assaulting guardsmen or termagants (banelings now, I hear). 40K did NOT need banelings with no micro.

" That's one of the reasons I don't like assault specialists, they often can't do anything in the shooting phase. For my marines I prefer units that can act in both phases, even if their assault strength isn't so hot. Just having the option to do something in the assault phase is better than not being able to do anything in the shooting phase, imo. Though my opinion differs on that when it comes to other armies."

I'm inclined to agree, which sucks for BA.

Yeah, well, BA may just be in a bad spot right now. The Strategems definitely help me, and there might be other differences that swing the balance enough to require a different formula. I'm not up on the BA alterations these days. If you wan't to split hairs, BA is not the subject of the thread though.

Unconvinced about Screenhammer, unless screenhammer is referring to counter-DSAlpha-hammer, which may be more accurate, and is also something Marines have some answers for.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah so the first game of 8th I ever played I first turn assaulted stealth suits from tau with tactical marines. Actually lost in assault. Yeah...good thing I was utilizing those stats - with 1 attack and all.

Then that's quite possibly an example of you making a poor tactical choice. Don't blame the game for that.

I can easily blame the game for that. Stealth suits are terrible at CC. They hit on 5's but tactical marines are equally terrible with their 1 attack. Then they can just fly away and shoot me. This was my first game of 8th anyways so we were just learning how the game flowed. realized very quickly that nothing has changed. Tactical marines still suck.

 -v10mega wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah so the first game of 8th I ever played I first turn assaulted stealth suits from tau with tactical marines. Actually lost in assault. Yeah...good thing I was utilizing those stats - with 1 attack and all.

Then that's quite possibly an example of you making a poor tactical choice. Don't blame the game for that.

I can easily blame the game for that. Stealth suits are terrible at CC. They hit on 5's but tactical marines are equally terrible with their 1 attack. Then they can just fly away and shoot me. This was my first game of 8th anyways so we were just learning how the game flowed. realized very quickly that nothing has changed. Tactical marines still suck.

You should have realized that marines with still...one attack still suck in cc its been that way all of 7th, and the results would have been the same in 7th too and 6th so...you just made a tactical error but you blame the game for it.

 Galas wrote:
Intercessors actually defend themselves very well in meele. I have had a 5 man Intercessor unit kill 20 Poxwalkers in two turns of combat.

They should be a little more cheaper because they don't have the flexibility of Tacticals. Or keep their cost as is but give them special/heavy weapons.

 -v10mega wrote:
Where in this thread? Point them out to me and Ill agree with you. @xeno

Martel732 wrote:


You can't jump over screens, because there is another behind it. I've tried with BA.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


You can't jump over screens, because there is another behind it. I've tried with BA.

It's screens all the way down!

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I prefer to think of every incarnation of marines in these terms: "How do they overcome the tactical marine THIS edition?"

Tactical marines are NOT cost effective. Some posters disagree, but I think this is largely a empirically true statement due to minimizing of this unit over the editions.

Consequently, I see marines as a whole built on a very shaky foundation. Sometimes, GW gives marines bling to stabilize the house like 7th. Other times, like 5th, marines don't get much to help with the problem of being a marine and things don't go so well.

What I'll say about the current marine dex is that I think it will be eclipsed by every xeno codex because no xeno codex is burdened by the tactical marine problem.

How, you don't even have to take them.

Just to make clear the tone of my statement. "Elaborate" Because I think I know what youre talking about.

The problems of the tac marine trickle down to many marine units. Paying for stats they can't use. Paying for gear they can't use. In previous editions, common, cheap weapons that ignored the toughness, common weapons that ignored their armor, etc. The game has ALWAYS rewarded specialists, EXCEPT in cases like 5th ed GK, who were massively undercosted.

Again, BA have done a maginificent job of showing how good the basis of marines truly is: not good.BA have been SM without the required bling for two editions, have been the list that Xeno is describing.

So, I understand that sentiment. Especially in the light of swapping to the Tyranids codex and looking at their cheap, specialized units. And it's terrifying when I think about "How would my marines deal with X" or whatever. (To which my first answer is usually "Muddle through with moar marines." or some such.)

My own sentiment about marines in particular uses the modification: "Paying for stats they don't use." Not can't, but don't. Not that a Tac marine can't use his WS 3+, just that they are often not using it. Usually when I see Tacticals on the table, and I mentioned this maybe in another thread, they're just hanging back and camping an objective throwing pot-shots. And I argue that's just not the way to get the most out of your models. I like to ram them up close (certainly depending on the opponent), and imo that's how to make them the most effective.

With the move to 8th edition we lost our AP 5 bolters against chaff units, which meant that in earlier editions our basic guys could gun down guardsmen in the open with ease. Buuuut. With 8th we gained the ability to assault after Rapid-Firing, and we gained the ability to move and shoot with Heavy Weapons with a limited downside and assault after firing those as well. (Plus we gained unlimited Combi-weapon use). Also, more dependent on list, we gained more re-rolls. I'm not talking G-man either, Captains/Generic Chapter Master and Lieutenant are available to everyone using the main Codex.

My belief is that the style of playing marines has changed a bit, and requires more aggression from most units than before. I know this can sound like a 'Get Gud', but try to think about this approach from the more abstracted standpoint of: "How do I use all my stats to their fullest?"

And maybe they're pointed correctly, and maybe they aren't. It's not under my control, and I'm happy to work with them as is for a while. The important bit is really the question above.


Edit: Regarding 'trickle down'. That's one of the reasons I don't like assault specialists, they often can't do anything in the shooting phase. For my marines I prefer units that can act in both phases, even if their assault strength isn't so hot. Just having the option to do something in the assault phase is better than not being able to do anything in the shooting phase, imo. Though my opinion differs on that when it comes to other armies.

Bharring wrote:
What you've heard is that Marines are better than most other troops in CC.

So if it were 10 Fire Warriors, and you got 5 Marines in there, you're going to win eventually (most likely). It'll just take a while, but you're spending far fewer points to take them out of the fight.

Those 10 can fall back, but then can't shoot. Other units could then shoot those 5 Marines, but then can't shoot anything else. Then, if they werne't shot at (or were shot at but weren't dead), they can shoot something again, then charge again.

That's what bullying is. Marines could do that better than Kalabites, DAs, Guardians, etc. That doesn't mean they're autowin.

If you put 5 Tacs into a 5-man Stealth Suit squad, that was dumb. It'd be like if I put 3 Banshees in to a 10-man Tac squad. Sure, they're better per point than Tacs, but they're charging a much bigger threat.

If it was only 1 stealth suit, well then your dice hate you. Sorry. Happens to all of us.

The other benefit is it's harder to bully the backfield Marines. A 5-man Marine squad takes almost as many Striking Scorpions - who cost more per model - to shift. A backfield 5-man Kalabite squad takes much, much less.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Just look at all of insectum's quotes - thats where I wager they came from.

 -v10mega wrote:

This was the only instance I have found. And how I read it... he believes that tac marines are good if they are buffed so...debatable?