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Bharring wrote:
What you've heard is that Marines are better than most other troops in CC.

So if it were 10 Fire Warriors, and you got 5 Marines in there, you're going to win eventually (most likely). It'll just take a while, but you're spending far fewer points to take them out of the fight.

Those 10 can fall back, but then can't shoot. Other units could then shoot those 5 Marines, but then can't shoot anything else. Then, if they werne't shot at (or were shot at but weren't dead), they can shoot something again, then charge again.

That's what bullying is. Marines could do that better than Kalabites, DAs, Guardians, etc. That doesn't mean they're autowin.

If you put 5 Tacs into a 5-man Stealth Suit squad, that was dumb. It'd be like if I put 3 Banshees in to a 10-man Tac squad. Sure, they're better per point than Tacs, but they're charging a much bigger threat.

If it was only 1 stealth suit, well then your dice hate you. Sorry. Happens to all of us.

The other benefit is it's harder to bully the backfield Marines. A 5-man Marine squad takes almost as many Striking Scorpions - who cost more per model - to shift. A backfield 5-man Kalabite squad takes much, much less.

Why would you shoot at 5 marines in the backfeild? Unless they had 4 las cannons. In which case it's totally justifiable to shoot lascannons at them.

Thank you for not taking things out of cntext insectum

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah so the first game of 8th I ever played I first turn assaulted stealth suits from tau with tactical marines. Actually lost in assault. Yeah...good thing I was utilizing those stats - with 1 attack and all.

Then that's quite possibly an example of you making a poor tactical choice. Don't blame the game for that.

I can easily blame the game for that. Stealth suits are terrible at CC. They hit on 5's but tactical marines are equally terrible with their 1 attack. Then they can just fly away and shoot me. This was my first game of 8th anyways so we were just learning how the game flowed. realized very quickly that nothing has changed. Tactical marines still suck.

Been saying this for a while. Marines are generic. Jack of all trades master of none.
If you want assault specialists, use those. They will perform better. Using marines as an assault element is desperation. I agree that you should have had a special weapon in there and a power sword. It’s only 4 points.

You said the only use you have for marines is 2 squads of five in a rhino.
2 power swords, 2 special weapons and 2 combi weapons can do a lot of work. Marines are supposed to hit their targets in such a way as to tactically out maneuver their foes by applying more force in a small area than their opponent can resist. You should play by that maxim.

Also, I feel you on eldar and tau having the fly key word everywhere. Being able to just fall back from combat and then shoot. Kind of reminds me of what space marines could do in melee in previous editions with ATSKNF. Fall back from combat, regroup, fire without penalties.

To be honest Stealth Suits are one of the best (And only really good units) of Tau in 8th edition. And even then, 6 are nearly 250 points. I'm not surprised that a unit that is bad in assault and cost half the points didn't do anything to them even with them being very, very bad in meele.

 Galas wrote:
To be honest Stealth Suits are one of the best (And only really good units) of Tau in 8th edition. And even then, 6 are nearly 250 points.

They are 30 points each. It's not that bad.

Yeah, I'm not saying they are bad. They are pretty good. But is not like they cost the same as Tacticals Marines.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
To be honest Stealth Suits are one of the best (And only really good units) of Tau in 8th edition. And even then, 6 are nearly 250 points.

They are 30 points each. It's not that bad.

Base? Without weapons figured in?

 -v10mega wrote:
Thank you for not taking things out of cntext insectum

Its hard to tell on the internets sometimes, but I assume thats genuine.

Just trying to keep things on track. I'm usually 'some players' when it comes to positivity about basic marines.

 sennacherib wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
To be honest Stealth Suits are one of the best (And only really good units) of Tau in 8th edition. And even then, 6 are nearly 250 points.

They are 30 points each. It's not that bad.

Base? Without weapons figured in?

They are 30ppm with Brust Cannon and 41 with Fusion Blaster.
A squad of 6 with 2 Fusion Blasters is 202points.
You can make them more expensive with Homing Beacons or Drones.

I play them with a bunch of drones, so mine cost normally 230-240

 sennacherib wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
To be honest Stealth Suits are one of the best (And only really good units) of Tau in 8th edition. And even then, 6 are nearly 250 points.

They are 30 points each. It's not that bad.

Base? Without weapons figured in?

Base with their gun is 30 points. You can give them additional upgrades but it doesn't make sense to - they will get out of hand quickly. They have 4 str 5 shots already for 30 points and they are -1 to hit with 3+ saves and 2 wounds 2 attacks a piece.

What’s their bs.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:
Thank you for not taking things out of cntext insectum

Its hard to tell on the internets sometimes, but I assume thats genuine.

Just trying to keep things on track. I'm usually 'some players' when it comes to positivity about basic marines.

You certainly are a basic marine fan. It's admirable - but in my meta - playing like that wouldn't be much fun.

But well you are comparing a mediocre unit that only works as Heavy Weapon guy+4 Wound Tokens with one of the best units of a very mediocre faction.

Is not like Stealth Suits are gonna kill anything in meele.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:
Thank you for not taking things out of cntext insectum

Its hard to tell on the internets sometimes, but I assume thats genuine.

Just trying to keep things on track. I'm usually 'some players' when it comes to positivity about basic marines.

Being genuine buddy, I'm Canadian

 sennacherib wrote:

What’s their bs.

hits on 4's - they aren't bad. They out manuever, out shoot, out deploy, and out assault a tactical marine.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
To be honest Stealth Suits are one of the best (And only really good units) of Tau in 8th edition. And even then, 6 are nearly 250 points.

They are 30 points each. It's not that bad.

Base? Without weapons figured in?

Base with their gun is 30 points. You can give them additional upgrades but it doesn't make sense to - they will get out of hand quickly. They have 4 str 5 shots already for 30 points and they are -1 to hit with 3+ saves and 2 wounds 2 attacks a piece.

So assuming a basic marine is 13 pts the same as a CSM
3 marines = 1 stealth suit
6 Str 4 shots at 12”, 3 wounds with 3+ saves, and let’s not forget a lascannon would kill a whole stealth suit a lot faster than three SM.

In a shoot out the marines will do slightly more wounds statistically in melee and shooting compared to an equivilent point level of stealth suit

After everything has calmed down... we can direct this energy we have to the space marine tactica and just start thinking about how to make SM good and viable

 Galas wrote:
But well you are comparing a mediocre unit that only works as Heavy Weapon guy+4 Wound Tokens with one of the best units of a very mediocre faction.

Is not like Stealth Suits are gonna kill anything in meele.

That is not what a tactical squad should be. They are bloody shock troops. They should beat non dedicated CC units if they reach them. The problem with space marines is their stats. They pay for stats that don't matter like 3+ to hit in CC with 1 attack and 3+ saves with 1 wound. They aren't tough per point. They have good BS but you can get it for cheaper on a lot of units.

I agree with that. Thats the reason I think Intercessors and Tacticals should be merged in one unit of Primaris Tactical Squad.

But this isn't gonna happen before GW drops the space marines and goes full Primaris.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
But well you are comparing a mediocre unit that only works as Heavy Weapon guy+4 Wound Tokens with one of the best units of a very mediocre faction.

Is not like Stealth Suits are gonna kill anything in meele.

That is not what a tactical squad should be. They are bloody shock troops. They should beat non dedicated CC units if they reach them. The problem with space marines is their stats. They pay for stats that don't matter like 3+ to hit in CC with 1 attack and 3+ saves with 1 wound. They aren't tough per point. They have good BS but you can get it for cheaper on a lot of units.

No, no they are not. They are not shock troops, they are your baseline troops choice. Literally the most bland and generic choice in your army. They are there to put bodies on the board, capture objectives, and occasionally fire a special or heavy weapon if they happen to be in the right situation. That's it. They are not the end all be all, and they are not meant to be. I don't care what the fluff says, because fluff doesn't dictate rules. Fluffwise, my Riptides are supposed to be the top of the line, most technologically advanced weapon ever produced by the Tau and are only piloted by the best of the best who have decades of experience and stellar service records. On the table, they shoot as well as a Fire Warrior on his first day on the job, literally have to break themselves in order to actually have a chance of doing any damage, and can't move and shoot their guns at the same time.

Fluff is faction propaganda, and cannot be used as a source for how well units perform on the battlefield. Under no circumstances should your baseline troops choice be able to kill one of the best units in my army in a single round of combat. If that is your expectation for this game, either sit down and think long and hard about what this game is or go find someone who will let you play Movie Marines.

There is a SM story, iron snakes chapter I believe, where 100 marines carve through an Ork army with no casualties. Are you saying that marines aren’t this good in melee. Heresy.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
But well you are comparing a mediocre unit that only works as Heavy Weapon guy+4 Wound Tokens with one of the best units of a very mediocre faction.

Is not like Stealth Suits are gonna kill anything in meele.

That is not what a tactical squad should be. They are bloody shock troops. They should beat non dedicated CC units if they reach them. The problem with space marines is their stats. They pay for stats that don't matter like 3+ to hit in CC with 1 attack and 3+ saves with 1 wound. They aren't tough per point. They have good BS but you can get it for cheaper on a lot of units.

No, no they are not. They are not shock troops, they are your baseline troops choice. Literally the most bland and generic choice in your army. They are there to put bodies on the board, capture objectives, and occasionally fire a special or heavy weapon if they happen to be in the right situation. That's it. They are not the end all be all, and they are not meant to be. I don't care what the fluff says, because fluff doesn't dictate rules. Fluffwise, my Riptides are supposed to be the top of the line, most technologically advanced weapon ever produced by the Tau and are only piloted by the best of the best who have decades of experience and stellar service records. On the table, they shoot as well as a Fire Warrior on his first day on the job, literally have to break themselves in order to actually have a chance of doing any damage, and can't move and shoot their guns at the same time.

Fluff is faction propaganda, and cannot be used as a source for how well units perform on the battlefield. Under no circumstances should your baseline troops choice be able to kill one of the best units in my army in a single round of combat. If that is your expectation for this game, either sit down and think long and hard about what this game is or go find someone who will let you play Movie Marines.

What about Custodes? They are baseline troops
I disagree with the premise that Troops should be boring, bland and nearly tactically useless for more than just having bodys on the ground. I agree that they shouldn't be doing anything really that special, but to say that they should be nearly useless and just sit there shooting some things and capping objetives is losing the tree because of the woods. Not all armies are made equal, and not all troops are made equal. In the same sense, Troops vs Elites/Fast Attack/Heavy Weapon is a totally arbitrary category that GW gives or takes away from units without a problem (Eldar Jetbikes, from Fast Attack to Troop, from Troop to Fast Attack)
If some army should have their troops as the core of their strategy and army, supported by more specialized elements, should be Space Marines.
And I'm not saying that Tacticals marines should destroy my unit of Stealth Suits that cost the double in points in one meele round. I'm just disagreein with your premise about troops.

 -v10mega wrote:

Being genuine buddy, I'm Canadian

I Lol'd. Nice.

 -v10mega wrote:
After everything has calmed down... we can direct this energy we have to the space marine tactica and just start thinking about how to make SM good and viable

Well, be prepared for some wishlisting insanity. You're going to see a lot of this:

 Xenomancers wrote:

That is not what a tactical squad should be. They are bloody shock troops.

Used to justify all sorts of craziness.

Imo, Intercessors are the answer to the desire for supermarines. It's unfathomable that they wont later get weapons upgrades and other vehicles. Frankly I'm glad that GW is keeping ye olde traditional Space Marines around. I honestly can't see why they'd drop them, as they're have been their no1 selling product for a looong time. If they get replaced it's only going to be after a slow erosion and long time of testing the waters with how well they seem to sell.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:

Being genuine buddy, I'm Canadian

I Lol'd. Nice.

 -v10mega wrote:
After everything has calmed down... we can direct this energy we have to the space marine tactica and just start thinking about how to make SM good and viable

Well, be prepared for some wishlisting insanity. You're going to see a lot of this:

 Xenomancers wrote:

That is not what a tactical squad should be. They are bloody shock troops.

Used to justify all sorts of craziness.

Imo, Intercessors are the answer to the desire for supermarines. It's unfathomable that they wont later get weapons upgrades and other vehicles. Frankly I'm glad that GW is keeping ye olde traditional Space Marines around. I honestly can't see why they'd drop them, as they're have been their no1 selling product for a looong time. If they get replaced it's only going to be after a slow erosion and long time of testing the waters with how well they seem to sell.

Woulda been better if they just made interesssors and tacticals the same unit said you can just use ether model. Whichever you prefer. Plus have weapons options for the unit and interesessor stats.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
But well you are comparing a mediocre unit that only works as Heavy Weapon guy+4 Wound Tokens with one of the best units of a very mediocre faction.

Is not like Stealth Suits are gonna kill anything in meele.

That is not what a tactical squad should be. They are bloody shock troops. They should beat non dedicated CC units if they reach them. The problem with space marines is their stats. They pay for stats that don't matter like 3+ to hit in CC with 1 attack and 3+ saves with 1 wound. They aren't tough per point. They have good BS but you can get it for cheaper on a lot of units.

No, no they are not. They are not shock troops . . .

Imo they are. But the framing of shock troops is important. Shock troopers is not in this case unrelenting invincible rambos standing on a hilltop and gunning down all comers. Space marines are meant to engage in small, directed battles where they can minimize the enemy's numbers and bring a lot of force to a very small point. And then they do the same thing over and over and over again, without sleeping and without stopping, for days and weeks if necessary, until the enemy is defeated.

You can't minimize guard artillery though.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
But well you are comparing a mediocre unit that only works as Heavy Weapon guy+4 Wound Tokens with one of the best units of a very mediocre faction.

Is not like Stealth Suits are gonna kill anything in meele.

That is not what a tactical squad should be. They are bloody shock troops. They should beat non dedicated CC units if they reach them. The problem with space marines is their stats. They pay for stats that don't matter like 3+ to hit in CC with 1 attack and 3+ saves with 1 wound. They aren't tough per point. They have good BS but you can get it for cheaper on a lot of units.

No, no they are not. They are not shock troops . . .

Imo they are. But the framing of shock troops is important. Shock troopers is not in this case unrelenting invincible rambos standing on a hilltop and gunning down all comers. Space marines are meant to engage in small, directed battles where they can minimize the enemy's numbers and bring a lot of force to a very small point. And then they do the same thing over and over and over again, without sleeping and without stopping, for days and weeks if necessary, until the enemy is defeated.

Yeah, Space Marines are by definition shock troops. Surgically strikes on concentrated points, with a ton of short-medium range shooting mixtured with a (At least by the fluff) good mele capacity. Space Marines should want to be shooting you in close range to then charge you. Not sitting in the back of the field with a ton of tanks and lasscanons.

But we are forced to because we can't break through the screens.

Power armor 1 wound marines have sucked for several editions now. They are overcosted thanks to having stats that they don't use. 1 s4 ap0 attack in cc is worthless coming from a model that costs so much that he could be directly traded to take a plasma gun on someone else. One s4 ap0 shot is similarly pathetic. All the durability in the world isn't very good if you hit like a wet noodle. And considering that any amount of AP now degrades their only good stat, their durability isn't even good anymore.

The only time they saw their fair share of action as more than detachment fillers on the competitive side was when they came with a ton of free rides.

The marine codex is alright thanks to several of the vehicles and a certain big guy, but decent competitive lists are all about taking as little power armor as possible. You would think people would be able to see the writing on the wall with that in mind.

Martel732 wrote:
But we are forced to because we can't break through the screens.

IOW:

Space Marines are outnumbered and outmatched when they go head-to-head with a properly equipped and deployed army in a frontal assault.

What 40k really needs are much much bigger tables, IMO, so that there's actually an "enemy rear area" to deep strike into and cause havoc, or at least so that there is maneuvering room.

I think Space Marines would be more balanced on a much much larger table (say, 20' x 20') - access to drop pods and cheaper-than-everyone-else transports would be golden, and the SM could essentially either force the enemy to castle around their artillery positions and cede 80% of the field (and therefore objectives), or nail the artillery in precision strikes and attack and chop apart the enemy force piecemeal while they struggle to redeploy.

The only real omnipresent threats are long-ranged Imperial Guard artillery, but at least when given the space the Space Marines can use their superior shock tactics (well, drop pods and deepstrikers) and mobility to try to cut the enemy apart piecemeal - or force them to castle and give up all the objectives.