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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Imperial Fists are all about being defensive marines.

I think they've had some worthy defenses but they are also known for siege. Something I hate about these chapter strengths is - all space marines are good at everything. Literally A space marine chapter a lethal weapon - it doesn't mater which one. So hate hate it when any chapter is talked about like..."oh these are the defensive marines". All marines are expert defenders and attackers.

Well, I both agree and disagree here.
From a fluff perspective, Space Marines are a Elite force, yeah, but that doesn't means they can't have specializations and be better or worse at some task, at least compared with other marines. Is not that Imperial Fists are Siege Experts, so that means every other marine are mediocre at siegues and they are just better. It means that compared with the baseline fluff point of all marines ( ie: Bein ultra-elite units that are good at everything), thay are better in siege scenarios.

From a gameplay point, that works to give them differentatios and gameplay variations and differences. Marines need to be nerfed in relation to their fluff to be playable, that means their "specialities" can be more important.

I still think assault elements and units like marines paying for assaulty stats need a price break in 8th at the 6 month mark.

 sennacherib wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
@Xeno - why wouldn't you shoot 5 Tacs in the backfield camping an objective? Also, a couple potshotting Lascannons from a couple backfielding Tac squads on objectives can do some real damage. They're harder to shift than most faction's backfield squads, but you can't just ignore them.

Besides, that response was in to a comment about CC, not shooting.

Per point they *do* beat Stealth Suits in melee. And as shown above, per point, they're more durable. Further, per point, the shooting is fairly even, too. Just saying they're worse, per point, doesn't make it so.

I actually play 8th edition and know the game is over in 3 turns anyways. So objective are meaningless. I'm at around 30 games of 8th now and I've only had a single game come down to objectives. Most are handshakes after turn 2 with the inevitable tabling on turn 3. This is playing with 5 different armies. GK/UM/TAU/NID/Eldar. What game are you playing where objectives actually come into play at 2000 points?

I’m pretty sure your doing something wrong then. Do you play with any Los blocking terrain.
One of my games came down to the last die rolls of the bottom of turn 7.
I’ve only been tabled twice and both times by eldar. My first and second games of 8th ed.

Seriously. If your getting just pounded playing marines you should try something else. Like ally in some conscripts.

Maybe 3-4 LOS blockers on our typical tables. There is an equal amount of tabling going on both ways too. seriously. Shining spears can easily charge any unit on the table. I can deep strike right to your front line with half my army. Turn 1 assault is extremely common - you don't even need to see an enemy to assault them. Like I said i play all kinds of armies - this isn't exclusively a marine issue. Like do you guys not obliterated about 1/3 of an army on a good turn? This is pretty standard where I play. It might be my play style - I am super aggressive. Seems to be working - I rarely lose. Then again - I don't have to play against imperial guard ever.

LOS blockers don't help against IG. In fact, they help the IG more than they do the marines. IG shoot you anywhere on the table. You can't hide, you can't get out of range, and you can't silence the guns without your own 48" guns.

My Shining Spears could only have assaulted anything on the table if they could take 1 or 2 rounds of fire in the open first. He wasn't about to let them just charge anything. He planned for that.

He did try deepstriking some things right in front of me. He even got off an 11" first-turn deepstrike charge. I didn't let that 11" charge be something I couldn't live without. And I don't have chaff in my 'dex. But I prepared and countered, and it only did so much damage.

How can you consider a 5-man tac squad in the backfield not shoot-worthy all game, but believe the entire list woudl get wiped out? The two really arne't compatible.

"How can you consider a 5-man tac squad in the backfield not shoot-worthy all game, but believe the entire list woudl get wiped out? The two really arne't compatible."

I always save tac marines for last, unless I need them off an objective. I ignored 30 tac marines at a time in 5th. Nuke all the tanks with BA melta, ignore the meaningless bolter fire, wipe up the marines after all the real threats are dead with BA +1 init power weapons. Marines were trash in 5th, imo.

Some armies take a lot more damage from boltguns than others.

Bharring wrote:
Some armies take a lot more damage from boltguns than others.

Not really. You are letting it get in your head. Bolters are ignorable for everyone in the face of stuff like Vindicators. Bolters are trash because of how much each bolter costs to field. They have to shoot you for 5-6 turns to have a hope of crippling your list.

Being wounded on a 3+ instead of a 4+ and then getting your 3+ save does NOT qualify as "a lot more damage". Eldar were still mauling tac heavy lists in 5th by lining up scatterwalkers and going to town. Bonus points if they were fortuned in a ruins.

On a per point basis, no army in the game is taking significant damage from marine boltguns.

Unless you take elitest T3 infantry. When you're paying MEQ prices for short-range T3, boltguns make their points back reasonably quickly. Moreso when they're also ablaitive wounds for nice PG or two.

Martel732 wrote:
I still think assault elements and units like marines paying for assaulty stats need a price break in 8th at the 6 month mark.

Space Marines have assault elements?

The Boltgun kills T3 4+ infantry exactly *twice* as fast as Tac Marines. And many T3 4+ units cost as much or more per body.

Bharring wrote:
Unless you take elitest T3 infantry. When you're paying MEQ prices for short-range T3, boltguns make their points back reasonably quickly. Moreso when they're also ablaitive wounds for nice PG or two.

But you aren't paying marine prices. Marines have to pay for all that lovely equipment you assume they have.

Eldar have been about blowing away marines with fancy Elf-guns for 5 editions now. Don't pretend boltguns help against that. Sorry 6 editions. I briefly forgot about 2nd.

They can pay to bring a melta gun on one guy, and pay for the MG once. Then they can pay for the bodies without paying for the MG for ablaitive wounds. It's a different model than all-models-have-MGs, but it can be deadly if used correctly.

The PG/Combi 5-man still matches the 7man DA in firepower at the same points, while degrading much, much slower than the DAs. And the PG and Combi will still be alive when shot at with the same number of boltguns as kill the 7man.

Bharring wrote:
The Boltgun kills T3 4+ infantry exactly *twice* as fast as Tac Marines. And many T3 4+ units cost as much or more per body.

Don't get your infantry in range until the scatterlasers and starcannons have killed all the marines. Then the boltguns are killing ZERO elves. You should only have to wait a couple of turns.

Eldar are a 3+ armor army now, thanks to 6th.

You choose to be psyched out by bolters, when they are and have been one of the worst anti-infantry weapons in the game for a long time because of their lack of numbers on the tabletop. Because the guy carrying them is incredibly inefficient.

I've been ignoring them since 2nd ed.

Median Trace wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think assault elements and units like marines paying for assaulty stats need a price break in 8th at the 6 month mark.

Space Marines have assault elements?

There are elements int he marine codex that are assault oriented - but you will never see them on the table competitively. someone will bring some terminators for fun and they they get wiped for a single round of shooting and they laugh and say...that's why i don't bring these pieces of crap.

That's like saying AM are a 3+ armor army now, thanks to Russes.

In the game Xenos asked about, I had a heck of a lot more 4+ than 3+. The boltguns killed a lot of elves - a footdar list can't stop deepstrikers from wiping a few squads.

Starcannons are powerful, but expensive. I had a bunch of Brightlances - including a Falcon with one, where the other guy had 3xLascannons. I know the Brightlance is scary, but it's not even as good as a Lascannon. And Scatterlasers are terrible now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
@Xeno - why wouldn't you shoot 5 Tacs in the backfield camping an objective? Also, a couple potshotting Lascannons from a couple backfielding Tac squads on objectives can do some real damage. They're harder to shift than most faction's backfield squads, but you can't just ignore them.

Besides, that response was in to a comment about CC, not shooting.

Per point they *do* beat Stealth Suits in melee. And as shown above, per point, they're more durable. Further, per point, the shooting is fairly even, too. Just saying they're worse, per point, doesn't make it so.

I actually play 8th edition and know the game is over in 3 turns anyways. So objective are meaningless. I'm at around 30 games of 8th now and I've only had a single game come down to objectives. Most are handshakes after turn 2 with the inevitable tabling on turn 3. This is playing with 5 different armies. GK/UM/TAU/NID/Eldar. What game are you playing where objectives actually come into play at 2000 points?

I’m pretty sure your doing something wrong then. Do you play with any Los blocking terrain.
One of my games came down to the last die rolls of the bottom of turn 7.
I’ve only been tabled twice and both times by eldar. My first and second games of 8th ed.

Seriously. If your getting just pounded playing marines you should try something else. Like ally in some conscripts.

Maybe 3-4 LOS blockers on our typical tables. There is an equal amount of tabling going on both ways too. seriously. Shining spears can easily charge any unit on the table. I can deep strike right to your front line with half my army. Turn 1 assault is extremely common - you don't even need to see an enemy to assault them. Like I said i play all kinds of armies - this isn't exclusively a marine issue. Like do you guys not obliterated about 1/3 of an army on a good turn? This is pretty standard where I play. It might be my play style - I am super aggressive. Seems to be working - I rarely lose. Then again - I don't have to play against imperial guard ever.

If you rarely loose then why are you so upset about things.

Bharring wrote:
They can pay to bring a melta gun on one guy, and pay for the MG once. Then they can pay for the bodies without paying for the MG for ablaitive wounds. It's a different model than all-models-have-MGs, but it can be deadly if used correctly.

The PG/Combi 5-man still matches the 7man DA in firepower at the same points, while degrading much, much slower than the DAs. And the PG and Combi will still be alive when shot at with the same number of boltguns as kill the 7man.

Dire avengers aren't confused about their role. To hide in wave serpants and drop the hammer once a target in range is doomed and get legit damage on a target for minimum expense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sennacherib wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
@Xeno - why wouldn't you shoot 5 Tacs in the backfield camping an objective? Also, a couple potshotting Lascannons from a couple backfielding Tac squads on objectives can do some real damage. They're harder to shift than most faction's backfield squads, but you can't just ignore them.

Besides, that response was in to a comment about CC, not shooting.

Per point they *do* beat Stealth Suits in melee. And as shown above, per point, they're more durable. Further, per point, the shooting is fairly even, too. Just saying they're worse, per point, doesn't make it so.

I actually play 8th edition and know the game is over in 3 turns anyways. So objective are meaningless. I'm at around 30 games of 8th now and I've only had a single game come down to objectives. Most are handshakes after turn 2 with the inevitable tabling on turn 3. This is playing with 5 different armies. GK/UM/TAU/NID/Eldar. What game are you playing where objectives actually come into play at 2000 points?

I’m pretty sure your doing something wrong then. Do you play with any Los blocking terrain.
One of my games came down to the last die rolls of the bottom of turn 7.
I’ve only been tabled twice and both times by eldar. My first and second games of 8th ed.

Seriously. If your getting just pounded playing marines you should try something else. Like ally in some conscripts.

Maybe 3-4 LOS blockers on our typical tables. There is an equal amount of tabling going on both ways too. seriously. Shining spears can easily charge any unit on the table. I can deep strike right to your front line with half my army. Turn 1 assault is extremely common - you don't even need to see an enemy to assault them. Like I said i play all kinds of armies - this isn't exclusively a marine issue. Like do you guys not obliterated about 1/3 of an army on a good turn? This is pretty standard where I play. It might be my play style - I am super aggressive. Seems to be working - I rarely lose. Then again - I don't have to play against imperial guard ever.

If you rarely loose then why are you so upset about things.

Because my friends get mad when I play guilliman but I try to explain to them I have no other option. The codex is so gaking bad - the units literally need a 200% offense booster just to compete. So I've shelved marines until something changes with the army.

I give up.

 sennacherib wrote:
I give up.

A codex is bad when you have literally 1 option. Play guilliman or auto lose the game. Play 5 hive tyrants or auto lose the game - it's the same situation.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Because my friends get mad when I play guilliman but I try to explain to them I have no other option. The codex is so gaking bad - the units literally need a 200% offense booster just to compete. So I've shelved marines until something changes with the army.

So the army is too good with Guilliman and tables people by turn 3... but when you halve the firepower (making it a 6 turn game that comes down to objectives) the army performs so poorly that you just outright shelved it.

OOOhhhkay.

EDIT:
There are 2 Ultramarines players in my local club, one BA player, and one Raven Guard player. They all seem to be doing very well, and there is exactly 0 guilliman between them.

Bharring wrote:
That's like saying AM are a 3+ armor army now, thanks to Russes.

In the game Xenos asked about, I had a heck of a lot more 4+ than 3+. The boltguns killed a lot of elves - a footdar list can't stop deepstrikers from wiping a few squads.

Starcannons are powerful, but expensive. I had a bunch of Brightlances - including a Falcon with one, where the other guy had 3xLascannons. I know the Brightlance is scary, but it's not even as good as a Lascannon. And Scatterlasers are terrible now.

WELL if all Guard armies are doing is bringing Russes you'd be correct.

Bharring wrote:
That's like saying AM are a 3+ armor army now, thanks to Russes.

In the game Xenos asked about, I had a heck of a lot more 4+ than 3+. The boltguns killed a lot of elves - a footdar list can't stop deepstrikers from wiping a few squads.

Starcannons are powerful, but expensive. I had a bunch of Brightlances - including a Falcon with one, where the other guy had 3xLascannons. I know the Brightlance is scary, but it's not even as good as a Lascannon. And Scatterlasers are terrible now.

The only boltguns I use are ap -1 and have 30 inch range - they also reroll hits and wounds. They pretty much kill everything I shoot at. Thanks to bobby G.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Because my friends get mad when I play guilliman but I try to explain to them I have no other option. The codex is so gaking bad - the units literally need a 200% offense booster just to compete. So I've shelved marines until something changes with the army.

So the army is too good with Guilliman and tables people by turn 3... but when you halve the firepower (making it a 6 turn game that comes down to objectives) the army performs so poorly that you just outright shelved it.

OOOhhhkay.

EDIT:
There are 2 Ultramarines players in my local club, one BA player, and one Raven Guard player. They all seem to be doing very well, and there is exactly 0 guilliman between them.

Ive never played marines without guilliman. Also - it's not too good with guilliman. It's barely powerful enough to compete against eldar and though i don't play against them - I know i have basically no chance against AM. Even with a unit that lets me reroll hits and wounds with my ENTIRE ARMY.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
That's like saying AM are a 3+ armor army now, thanks to Russes.

In the game Xenos asked about, I had a heck of a lot more 4+ than 3+. The boltguns killed a lot of elves - a footdar list can't stop deepstrikers from wiping a few squads.

Starcannons are powerful, but expensive. I had a bunch of Brightlances - including a Falcon with one, where the other guy had 3xLascannons. I know the Brightlance is scary, but it's not even as good as a Lascannon. And Scatterlasers are terrible now.

The only boltguns I use are ap -1 and have 30 inch range - they also reroll hits and wounds. They pretty much kill everything I shoot at. Thanks to bobby G.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Because my friends get mad when I play guilliman but I try to explain to them I have no other option. The codex is so gaking bad - the units literally need a 200% offense booster just to compete. So I've shelved marines until something changes with the army.

So the army is too good with Guilliman and tables people by turn 3... but when you halve the firepower (making it a 6 turn game that comes down to objectives) the army performs so poorly that you just outright shelved it.

OOOhhhkay.

EDIT:
There are 2 Ultramarines players in my local club, one BA player, and one Raven Guard player. They all seem to be doing very well, and there is exactly 0 guilliman between them.

Ive never played marines without guilliman.

that sounds more like a win-stick than the desperately clutched at crutch of a barely competitive army.

What if you don't bring any Serpents? What if you need more small arms? What if your Doom is denied / doesn't go off for all but 1 round of the game (all of which were true for that game)?

Marines can do the same from Rhinos, but Rhinos are cheaper.

You remind me of the SL Bikes appologists who would take them decrying the rest of their quite-capable codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
That's like saying AM are a 3+ armor army now, thanks to Russes.

In the game Xenos asked about, I had a heck of a lot more 4+ than 3+. The boltguns killed a lot of elves - a footdar list can't stop deepstrikers from wiping a few squads.

Starcannons are powerful, but expensive. I had a bunch of Brightlances - including a Falcon with one, where the other guy had 3xLascannons. I know the Brightlance is scary, but it's not even as good as a Lascannon. And Scatterlasers are terrible now.

WELL if all Guard armies are doing is bringing Russes you'd be correct.

It's actually a viable strategey 5 command russ and a shadowsword is an insane amount of firepower.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
I give up.

A codex is bad when you have literally 1 option. Play guilliman or auto lose the game. Play 5 hive tyrants or auto lose the game - it's the same situation.

By that logic, the 7E Eldar codex was bad - you bring scatbikes and WK or lose the game.

Space marines aren't as bad as you make them out to be, you're simply just complaining that you can't bring whatever units you want and for them to be maximally OP against all others armies because "Space Marinez is the best and the elitist." Seriously. This is the exact reason people hate SM - they seem to expect everything to be catered to them and bend to make them the best. It really comes across as childish.

 Galas wrote:
Imperial Fists are all about being defensive marines.

And comical that they have rules for dealing with buildings. How often does that come up, seriously... People used some stuff in 7th, a little bit? I wanted to be "that guy" with Cypher manning an Aquila Macro Cannon, but they switched editions before I could get a macro. (THANK GOD)

Bharring wrote:
What if you don't bring any Serpents? What if you need more small arms? What if your Doom is denied / doesn't go off for all but 1 round of the game (all of which were true for that game)?

Marines can do the same from Rhinos, but Rhinos are cheaper.

You remind me of the SL Bikes appologists who would take them decrying the rest of their quite-capable codex.

marines can't do the same - they can't advance and shoot - and their optimal range is 12 not 18. They also don't have a power like doom which is a huge force multiplier. They have to take a 360 (385) point gorilla and form a power ball to do any kind of acceptable damage.

But not all armies are bringing only-3+ saves. There are actually *no* Troops choices in the 'Dex with a 3+ save. It was kinda true in 7th, but not in 8th.

If you kill everything you shoot at, and win mostly every game, and you can't win anything if you drop a unit for a boltgun-armed Tac squad or two, something is really, really wrong.