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HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
I give up.

A codex is bad when you have literally 1 option. Play guilliman or auto lose the game. Play 5 hive tyrants or auto lose the game - it's the same situation.

By that logic, the 7E Eldar codex was bad - you bring scatbikes and WK or lose the game.

Space marines aren't as bad as you make them out to be, you're simply just complaining that you can't bring whatever units you want and for them to be maximally OP against all others armies because "Space Marinez is the best and the elitist." Seriously. This is the exact reason people hate SM - they seem to expect everything to be catered to them and bend to make them the best. It really comes across as childish.

I was crushing people with Support D cannons - dark reapers - and hemlocks before it was cool. Eldar codex was the AM codex of this eddition. Almost everything was good.

Don’t try to reason with him. He has said....
Daemonprinces can destroy any unit in the game and are better than rowboat.
Marines are trash had have been since third edition but......
He rarely looses, so much so that he has shelved his marines despite making the tactical decision to charge 5 unarmed tactical marines into a unit of stealth suites and was surprised that he didn’t slaughter them.

Seriously. He’s beyond reason. Madness.

Marines have Null Zone - not as good, but good.

Marines can survive twice the small arms fire per model.

Marines have the Lt models

Marines have the overpriced Pod, which would auto-give you the 12" range to do what you think make DAs OP. Sure, it's a lot of points, but less than a Serpent. But it's just not as powerful as you think.

DAs and Guardians are the only front-line troops CWE has. If you need to use troops for small-arms fire, you can't just hide them away when their ranges are 18" or 12". Sure, being less effective between 12" and 24" sucks, but it's nothing compared to having no effectiveness beyond 12" or 18".

(Also, Marines can advance and shoot Assault weapons, albeit at a -1. If it were so awesome, Shotgun Scouts would be a thing.)

Eldar new plan is to cower in their undercosted transports and wait for the heavy eldar guns to clear all the inefficient marines. Your troops don't get scratched.

Even if boltguns were good vs eldar, which they aren't, their only target is the wave serpent.

Are you saying you can crush CWE now, or that you've always been able to crush CWE lists with those units?

Because in the first case, then how is SM weak, if even you can destroy them? And in the second case, not all of those units have existed very long...

(Not saying CWE isn't more powerful than SM. Just saying much of what you say doesn't make sense.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Serpent costs more than an Assault Cannon Razorback, and in its most efficient anti-MEQ setup, has strictly worse firepower.

If it were that simple, the counterplay is mindbendingly simple. So I'm confident it's a bit more complicated than that.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
I give up.

A codex is bad when you have literally 1 option. Play guilliman or auto lose the game. Play 5 hive tyrants or auto lose the game - it's the same situation.

By that logic, the 7E Eldar codex was bad - you bring scatbikes and WK or lose the game.

Space marines aren't as bad as you make them out to be, you're simply just complaining that you can't bring whatever units you want and for them to be maximally OP against all others armies because "Space Marinez is the best and the elitist." Seriously. This is the exact reason people hate SM - they seem to expect everything to be catered to them and bend to make them the best. It really comes across as childish.

You actually has 3 units to choose from: Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, and Scatterbikes. If you remove one you can still stomp people.

Kinda like Guilliman, AssaultCannon Razorbacks, or Stormraven?

If marines were as good as half the people in this thread were stating they would be placing much higher in competitive tournaments. They are not. They are even falling out of imperial soup lists so "buying conscripts" isn't even a fix anymore.

But they do not have the worst codex. Pretty sure that's GK but non-UM marines are pretty close. With Gully UMs just above Cawl AdMech and just below Morty DG (better soup options for DG)

Now wall of text:

Anecdotal experiences in a not very competitive local meta don't carry as much weigh as the experience of competitive players spending significant money to compete in large tournaments.

Who touched your army in the past or how powerful/weak your army was in the past has no bearing on the current state of marines.

New models or a large catalog do not address the basic premise that marines are not a top tier competitive army.

It's probably true that they are not the worst but they are bottom tier without much hope for improvement (if you put any faith into the C.A. leaks where the only competitive units, Gulliman, dual assault cannons and stormravens are all getting point increases).

I happen to play in a hyper-competitive local meta. I cannot bring my space marines to the table without being at a significant disadvantage. Maybe not completely insurmountable but I will need good dice luck, my opponent to make mistakes, not make any of my own and run an extremely limited range of models.

I have a solid collection of 4k+ points of Black Templars I have to play as raven-guard or black ultra marines to even have a chance of competing (not getting tabled by turn 3 or being so far behind that the result of the game is a foregone conclusion). But if I'm going to do that I might as well replace the rest of my army with more efficient IG as there is nothing that SM do that IG don't do better.

I put my army away at the end of 5th and was excited about the promised balance of 8th. I went and bought index compliant venerable dreads only to be told that I can't use those options all of 2 months later. Bought a bunch of primaris that (outside of hellblasters) will never see the table because they are terrible. Terminators nope, assault marines, nope, crusader squads, nope, chaplains, nope, repulsor, nope, land raider, nope...

Having a non-competitive army is just as bad as having a super OP army as most people are there for good fights and if Eldar are that much better than my army neither player gets to feel any of the things that drew me to this hobby (feeling clever, pulling off good on table tactics, coming up with a good synergy between list building and tactics, sweating out a super important roll, picking up a new powerful unit, painting it up and feeling proud.)

At this point going against certain armies (chaos monster mash, ynarri, IG and Nids) is just plain not fun. Maybe as more primarchs come out marines will get help but if those primarchs are only coming for chapters who don' t have their dex yet Codex Ultra Marines non UMs are screwed as more and more dexs come out and the list of armies that are not fun to play with grows and grows.

I'm not sure what the answer is as it seems the cat is out of the bag with codex creep. Other dex's have many competitive/semi-competitive units they can use and I have to spam rowboat, dev squads, razor backs and stormravens.

This could totally be the grass is always greener syndrome so I'm starting a Nid army to see how the grass actually looks on the other side but so far it is so soft, plushy and nice...

I'd rather buff my stuff than nerf other's but we'll see how this all shakes out at the end. Until then I'll just run my dirty ultra marines with guilliman and be happy to have a competitive game, create some drama and hope the dice go my way until Dorn comes back...

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

By that logic, the 7E Eldar codex was bad - you bring scatbikes and WK or lose the game.

Space marines aren't as bad as you make them out to be, you're simply just complaining that you can't bring whatever units you want and for them to be maximally OP against all others armies because "Space Marinez is the best and the elitist." Seriously. This is the exact reason people hate SM - they seem to expect everything to be catered to them and bend to make them the best. It really comes across as childish.

It is bad because the one unit that makes the army competitive is tied to one specific subfaction, while the codex is supposed to be used to represent various different subfactions.

 sennacherib wrote:
Don’t try to reason with him. He has said....
Daemonprinces can destroy any unit in the game and are better than rowboat.
Marines are trash had have been since third edition but......
He rarely looses, so much so that he has shelved his marines despite making the tactical decision to charge 5 unarmed tactical marines into a unit of stealth suites and was surprised that he didn’t slaughter them.

Seriously. He’s beyond reason. Madness.

That isn't even true. I said daemon princes are better than every unit in the marine codex minus guilliman. Do you actually disagree with that?

Also the 5 man tactical charging in to stealth suits was in my first game of 8th edition in which I stated we were just feeling the game out with the indexes - It has literally 0 bearing on my knowledge of tactics in this game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Kinda like Guilliman, AssaultCannon Razorbacks, or Stormraven?

Interesting how all 3 of those units are getting price hikes in CA.

Are you going to completely disregard my claim that most of the elder codex in 7th was well above the bar? As in well above 3 competitive units?

This is still going on?!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
I give up.

A codex is bad when you have literally 1 option. Play guilliman or auto lose the game. Play 5 hive tyrants or auto lose the game - it's the same situation.

By that logic, the 7E Eldar codex was bad - you bring scatbikes and WK or lose the game.

Space marines aren't as bad as you make them out to be, you're simply just complaining that you can't bring whatever units you want and for them to be maximally OP against all others armies because "Space Marinez is the best and the elitist." Seriously. This is the exact reason people hate SM - they seem to expect everything to be catered to them and bend to make them the best. It really comes across as childish.

You actually has 3 units to choose from: Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, and Scatterbikes. If you remove one you can still stomp people.

Don't forget wraithgaurd (had real d weapons - or -1d flamers) D support weapons - dark reapers(in aspect host hit on 2+ and ignored jink and could reroll misses against flyers - and a exarch that could fire twice with an eldar missile launcher which had a skyfire mode) - hemlock wraithfighters (-1 D small blasts) heck - ever guardian warhosts were strong.

Wow, what happened to this thread? It seems the consensus is that Space Marines are very much average - one or two overpowered "win" combos, a bunch of decent but not great things, and then some mediocre at best units. Rather than another ten pages of complaining about how they are the worst, wouldn't it be more productive.

So, a few of the things people have noted Space Marines lack:
-Chapter Tactics on Vehicles
-Mediocre Assault
-Paying for Stats They Don't Use
-No Chaff / Expensive Chaff

Note, a lot of these issues / fixes can probably go with power armored Chaos Marines too.

The first one is a fairly simple fix, though I agree with some of the others that they should have separate vehicle / infantry chapter tactics. I also predict that Chapter Approved will give them something.

The second two bits kind of flow together, since the unpaid for stats are basically assault based. What would fix this area here? Would increasing their Attack Stat from 1 to 2 do anything? That way they at least don't actively lose attacks for being in melee? Ie: rapid fire the bolters, then charge in for the equivalent of another rapid fired bolter? This would probably help units like Assault Marines too, though not being a Marine player myself I don't know if this would be a minimal buff. Maybe along with this give the tac squad a melee special weapon slot, so that you could run a sergeant with their special gear, a dedicated special/heavy weapon guy, and the melee specialist? I'm not sold on this, but it reinforces the generalist theme of Space Marines and makes them overall more useful in more situations.

I actually like the +1 save vs AP 0 idea for power armor, though it does also feel a touch strong and it would need to be added to both Chaos Marines and Sisters. I could see a 1CP stratagem though, wording would need to be better but something like "Spend 1CP, and the designated squad of Power Armored and Terminator Armored Marines gain a +1 to their save vs AP 0, AP 1, and AP 2 weapons for the remainder of the round."

For the lack of chaff, I've got nothing unless GW decides to release models for Chapter Serfs or the like. If power armored marines get a small buff in Chapter Approved, they might be able to work as this, though it would be more as a pivot than chaff - block the foe from advancing and destroying the key vehicle or objective, and then fire back and bloody their nose and push them off/away.


I think the point on table size is interesting. Obviously saying "just double your table size" is not a real solution, but its interesting to me that by scaling up the table size, Space Marines can fulfill their roll as shock troops.

What happened to this thread. Nothing but the OP trying to defend the fact that despite winning most of his games, his assertion that SM are the WORST codex and they have been trash since 3rd ed.

Also, now he has back pedaled and said that Daemon princes are better than anything in the space marine codex except guilliman. Pfttthhhht.

On the topic of paying for things they don't use, atsknf is garbage now.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
On the topic of paying for things they don't use, atsknf is garbage now.

An intrinsic optional LD test reroll is garbage now? With a five man squad you're mostly only worrying about the rare times you roll a 5 or 6, and ATSKNF helps with that. Its saved me marines on multiple occasions when I was having bad dice rolls.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Kinda like Guilliman, AssaultCannon Razorbacks, or Stormraven?

Interesting how all 3 of those units are getting price hikes in CA.

Now I do wonder where this "fact" comes from, considering none of the reliable rumor sites have ANYTHING to say about what CA actually contains yet, let alone specific unit changes.

Statistically, it's a middling codex, but far from the worst: http://variancehammer.com/2017/11/16/number-crunching-warzone-atlanta-2017/

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Kinda like Guilliman, AssaultCannon Razorbacks, or Stormraven?

Interesting how all 3 of those units are getting price hikes in CA.

Now I do wonder where this "fact" comes from, considering none of the reliable rumor sites have ANYTHING to say about what CA actually contains yet, let alone specific unit changes.

I assume its from the rumor thread in the News and Rumors forum, though as far as I am aware none of the stuff there is verifiable.

This post here isn't the origin, but has all the rumored points changes that I am aware of.

If the rumors are true though, then those three specific units are getting a point increase, and a good 10+ other units in the dex are getting a point decrease.

bananathug wrote:-snip-
back...

This is so closely aligned to my own thinking - including playing BT - that I wondered for a moment if I’d written that post. The only difference is that I’m fortunate to play in a fun-dominated meta rather than a competitive one. Even so, we do have competitive beardy cheesy tournaments as well as fun ones. And as you’ve pointed out, all my favourite Templar-y units - Crusaders, Land Raiders, Terminators, Chaplains - don’t exactly catapult me to the top tables.

I think when people are talking about the competitiveness of the Space Marine Codex, they really need to distinguish between Codex: Guilliman and Codex: I Didn’t Paint My Guys Blue. The existence of a broken Guilliman is preventing the rest of the Codex being balanced for other Chapters.

Not that Templars belong in there at all, but that’s a different discussion altogether...

kurhanik wrote:The second two bits kind of flow together, since the unpaid for stats are basically assault based. What would fix this area here? Would increasing their Attack Stat from 1 to 2 do anything? That way they at least don't actively lose attacks for being in melee? Ie: rapid fire the bolters, then charge in for the equivalent of another rapid fired bolter? This would probably help units like Assault Marines too, though not being a Marine player myself I don't know if this would be a minimal buff..

It’s a start, but it does nothing to help with their durability. That’s the bigger issue in my opinion - there is no weapon (except maybe Grots?) that is more points efficient at killing chaff infantry like Guardsmen than it is at killing Space Marine infantry. That’s why I suggested Primaris-ing every Space Marine’s profile earlier in this thread.

With Intercessors rumoured to be dropping to 18 points, my suggestion is to give every single non-Character (Chaos/Loyal) Space Marine the extra +1 attack and wound. Then bring the base cost of Power-Armoured infantry up to 15, Primaris infantry down to 15, and add 3 points to the cost of all Primaris guns.

For Terminators, give them the increased stats but no points increase (they need the boost), for Characters give them the +1 attack but not the wound (they don’t need to be tougher but if you don’t increase their attacks you’ll get weird results), for Agressors/Inceptors I won’t say since I don’t know them well enough. Then remove the Primaris characters entirely and roll them together into the non-Primaris profile (so a Primaris Captain is replaced by a normal Captain with Gravis Armour, Bolt gauntlet and sword). Make no changes to the vehicles except for points balancing where necessary (Stormraven/Assback).

It’d need a little fine tuning with thing like Death Guard, but I reckon it’s the best road to balanced Space Marines.

sennacherib wrote:
Also, now he has back pedaled and said that Daemon princes are better than anything in the space marine codex except guilliman. Pfttthhhht.

To be fair to him, what looks like actually happened was he said that the Prince was better than anything in the SM Codex, somebody pointed out that meant better than Guilliman, which he immediately conceded he hadn’t considered and amended his original post to exclude Guilliman. Then, instead of actually addressing his claim that the Prince is better than everything but Guilliman, people have disingenuously and pretty nastily piled gak on him about saying the Prince was better than Guilliman to discredit him.

I this thread can be locked now. It's degraded into a lot of snide remarks / people bashing.

On the flipside, giving me a good laugh at work.

@kurhanik - not sure I agree with you on several points, but do on the overall spirit of the post.

I don't think Marines should get CT on Vehicles. I also don't think CWE should not have their attribute on Vehicles. For fluff reasons mostly, but also to focus the Marines on what makes them Marines. Obviously, that's a problem if the Attribute is effectively the same between Marines and CWE.

In some cases, it can be argued that, SM vehicle vs CWE vehicle, the CWE vehicle needs the Attribute to stack up (LasPred vs BL Falcon). In other cases, clearly not true (Hemlock Wraithfighter). I actually think the Pred is good without CT, and the Falcon is a little less than good without the attribute. I'd be fine either way.

When the SM traits came out, I thought the RG one was stupidly good, but at least it's on Marines and not Eldar. And only affected the CT units. Now it's on Eldar. And affects our *flyers*.

It's a pipedream, but I wish CWE didn't have Attributes, or at least not in the same vein. Failing that, CWE should affect everything, but shouldn't be what Alaitoc got. Uthwe is OK (but could be nerfed to specifically non-vehicles). Samm Hain or Biel-Tan on everything (that it currently - both are limited) is in the same league as the average CT on only CT units. Iyanden is worse than the average CT on CT-onlys (but would be OP if IG got it).

Plenty of possibilites (such as RG/AL/Alaitoc getting "This does not stack with other negative modifiers"). However, it's really only 1 Attribute that'd need fixing. But I don't see any good fix coming soon.

Absent a good fix, I wouldn't be too opposed to CTs applying to vehicles, but I don't think it's the right direction.

On the mediocre assualt / paying for things they don't use, I don't think the SM player sees the damage those assault stats do to other close-range armies. If I can't assault your Marines with double their numbers of DAs or Guardians or Kalabites, you won't see where those stats save you. If my Fire Warriors can't hold their ground against a couple ASM, I have to compensate for that, which costs me, but you don't directly see how ASMs bullying them helps you. I'm not saying it's worth a ton of points, but then Tacs aren't a ton of points more than other elitest infantry.

The average army has decent chaff. Kroot, Kalabites, Gaunts, Ork Boyz, Guardsmen, Necron Warriors, Cultists and more can fill that role reasonably. But GK, SM, Harlequins and CWE don't have chaff (there are others, too). Harlequins don't "need" chaff because of how their army works, but the other 3 listed all have a problem with it, and all attempt to address it differently. I think GW tried to help both SM and CWE through the anti-DS stratagems, but didn't balance properly (WTF were they thinking price-dropping Reapers, and why is the SM one 2 CP?). Lack of chaff is just something the army has to deal with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Xeno - I was harsher than I should have been on the Tacs charging Stealth Suits. We now know it's tactically not ideal unless you outpoint them, but you wouldn't have then. Plus, sometimes those choices are fun. That early in the edition, I'd hesitate to even call it a mistake.

" Lack of chaff is just something the army has to deal with."

I don't think it's something that can be overcome for marines. Eldar have way more twiddly bits at this point, like transports with 13 wounds, -1 to hit, -1 to damage. The game is now screenhammer40K.

Martel732 wrote:
" Lack of chaff is just something the army has to deal with."

I don't think it's something that can be overcome for marines. Eldar have way more twiddly bits at this point, like transports with 13 wounds, -1 to hit, -1 to damage. The game is now screenhammer40K.

How is an armoured transport a screen?

And imho what you call "screenhammer" other people might call "infantry hammer" which is something that's been asked for for ages.

Literally "assign men out front to hold the line in front of your big guns" has been a tactic since before big guns were a thing.

I for one am finally happy that armies look and operate fairly consistently with how they would in the reality of the world they're in. Except for Space Marines because the table isn't big enough and so they're forced to take the enemy head-on.

It's a substitute for screen in many cases. It would be vulnerable to deepstrike, but everyone I know is giving up on deep strike, because it can't be used at all in over half of matchups.

The problem with "infantry hammer" is that the cheapest infantry autowin. All that matters is their cost and ability to take up space.

I know many people don't see it yet, but it will become apparent as the codices keep dropping.

@ xeno - I too was harsher than I should be. That said. You make outlandish and completely unsubstantiated claims here on dakka. Well. What can I say. Your gonna provoke a reaction.

In addition. If your winning almost every match with space marines then there’s an issue. A much bigger issue if you want them to be more powerful. Here’s the deal. If you give space marines more special rules etc, then people will just take the roboutille and they would be unstoppable in tournament play. It’s just going marines a larger win button.

Also, if you win almost every match, from my perspective your missing the issue. Everyone wants to have fun when they play a game and blowing people off the table by turn 2 as you claim isn’t fun for that player. After a couple games with you I wouldn’t play with you again. The issues with balance in this game are real. If you win almost every match maybe you should consider sidelining the rowboat and still playing space marines so your wins will be due to your skill and not having broken OP toys. Objectives will matter. Trust me it’s a lot more fulfilling to know you earned something rather than just have it handed to you.

I used to play a Nids list that lost only twice in tournament play and never lost outside of that. The psychic choir. After one tournament one of my freinds pointed out how little fun it was for anyone to play against me. If your going to spend hours traveling to an event with your collection of models you lovingly painted, Getting blown off the table by some broken combination after two turn doesn’t mean that the other player was better than you. But it does make for a lame experience. I never played that army list again after that.

Like I said. Maybe you should see guilliman as a crutch and start playing games which are more evenly balanced and a better measure of skill.

Marines both lack a way to deal with screens, nor a way to deal with the problems that arise when a list has no screens of its own. Well, they do have a way, but it involves Guilliman. That's the problem.

Martel732 wrote:It's a substitute for screen in many cases. It would be vulnerable to deepstrike, but everyone I know is giving up on deep strike, because it can't be used at all in over half of matchups.

The problem with "infantry hammer" is that the cheapest infantry autowin. All that matters is their cost and ability to take up space.

I know many people don't see it yet, but it will become apparent as the codices keep dropping.

I am not sure this is true. I think what will happen is the meta will swing back towards vehicles. In my experience, people bring a ridiculous amount of anti-tank weapons (like, out of 3 Devastator squads, 2 will have full lascannon and the last full missile launcher. Or out of 3 predators, all of them will have lascannons, one might have the autocannon turret if it's lucky, and there will be zero Heavy Bolters). With that kind of firepower, it's no wonder that Land Raiders seem overcosted and Knights are a resounding "meh" while cheap infantry are gods.

Do you know what the best Baneblade variant is in some people's minds? The Shadowsword, because it's "knocks out the enemy big stuff." Yes, yes it does, very well. But a tank like the Banehammer can have the same number of heavy bolter and lascannon shots as a Shadowsword and gets 3d6 shots instead of 3d3. But no one seems to take it, even though it essentially hard-counters infantry hordes.

I think the only reason it's infantryhammer ATM is because people don't bring anti-infantry weapons except when they're forced to (e.g. squad members that don't have access to heavy or special weapons, Khorne Berzerkers). The reason the Guard do so well in this environment is 2-fold: They're an infantry horde (duh, this one is obvious) but also their heavy guns have adequate utility against infantry. It's the only army where the anti-tank options (Leman Russ Vanquisher, Devil Dog, Lascannon Heavy Weapon Squads) are outperformed by the anti-infantry options (Manticores, Basilisks, Leman Russ Punisher, Hellhound, Mortars).

The meta just can't handle huge infantry hordes atm, but I think it could if it tried.

Martel732 wrote:Marines both lack a way to deal with screens, nor a way to deal with the problems that arise when a list has no screens of its own. Well, they do have a way, but it involves Guilliman. That's the problem.

This I agree with. I think the problem is lack of space.

The anti-infantry weapons that exist are too expensive for what they do. T3, especially T3 in cover, is too tough for heavy bolters or heavy flamers to dislodge.

People are bringing anti-tank weapons because shooting past the screen is the only remaining choice. Shooting the screen is a waste of time that causes your opponent to win.

Martel732 wrote:
The anti-infantry weapons that exist are too expensive for what they do. T3, especially T3 in cover, is too tough for heavy bolters or heavy flamers to dislodge.

People are bringing anti-tank weapons because shooting past the screen is the only remaining choice. Shooting the screen is a waste of time that causes your opponent to win.

I'm not sure that's true, actually.

I know if I was building my superheavies this edition I would put max sponsons on them, and it's not for the 4 Lascannons; it's for the 30 Heavy Bolter shots each one gets.

My Sororitas are spamming Storm Bolters as often as possible; out of the 12 special weapon slots and 6 sergeants in my 6 squads of 10 Battle Sisters in my footslogging brigade, 10 of them are storm Bolters and 5 of the Sergeants. I have one melta squad for defending against backfield baddies.

My Inquisition list had the run of the gamut of Imperial dedicated transports, and settled on a Land Raider Prometheus (24 heavy bolter shots that ignore cover, no lascannons or any other guns - though I may put a SB on it), a Chimera with 2 heavy flamers, and a Valkyrie with multiple rocket pods, and I also have a Marauder Destroyer coming for this army, with 12 Autocannon shots, 12 Assault Cannon shots, and 6 Heavy Bolter shots.