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 AaronWilson wrote:
UM's are the boring of boring.

I'd actually say their flaw is more interesting then being "super secretive or drinking blood and or turning into weird not werewolves, because it's all psychological.

The Ultramarines fight extremely rigidly everything coming from their codex treating it almost like a bible, which is they more or less share a psychological defect like the Iron hands, believing that flesh is weak and they have the need to replace limbs and remove their emotions.

To me the most interesting chapters are the ones with psychological flaws

Yes Ultramarines still suck, from having to be retconed into a founding chapter and the Heresy, to having to have the best version of any role to the point they had a half elder Liberian to justify his power.

From there we got the fan spank of the wardian era that slopped over into 8th with the return of the Universes best quatermaster and filing clerk and more fluff with the stench of ward all over it.

I know GW's quality of writing is not a particularly high bar but whenever the Smurfs are involved it manages to tunnel below even that minimal standard.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
UM's are the boring of boring.

I'd actually say their flaw is more interesting then being "super secretive or drinking blood and or turning into weird not werewolves, because it's all psychological.

The Ultramarines fight extremely rigidly everything coming from their codex treating it almost like a bible, which is they more or less share a psychological defect like the Iron hands, believing that flesh is weak and they have the need to replace limbs and remove their emotions.

To me the most interesting chapters are the ones with psychological flaws

Yeah their flaw is so subtle and interesting that it doesn't exist most of the time they're portrayed as the perfect heroes who are the best at everything and save the day in glorious noblebright fashion.

If the best example you have to point out for your chapter's "flaw" is one scene in the Space Marine video game where NPC Character Guy says something stupid so Awesome Hero Guy (also an Ultramarine) can pimp-slap him and look extra smart and cool, it's not a good flaw.

Lets take a peek at the "Ultramarines" page of the Imperium 1 Index. Does it mention this "flaw?" Oh, there it is, it says they adhere rigidly to the codex astartes. And then it goes on to say how that makes them awesome strategic geniuses and masters of war who nobody can ever match.

So flawed. Much deep. Character very three dimensional.

the_scotsman wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
UM's are the boring of boring.

I'd actually say their flaw is more interesting then being "super secretive or drinking blood and or turning into weird not werewolves, because it's all psychological.

The Ultramarines fight extremely rigidly everything coming from their codex treating it almost like a bible, which is they more or less share a psychological defect like the Iron hands, believing that flesh is weak and they have the need to replace limbs and remove their emotions.

To me the most interesting chapters are the ones with psychological flaws

Yeah their flaw is so subtle and interesting that it doesn't exist most of the time they're portrayed as the perfect heroes who are the best at everything and save the day in glorious noblebright fashion.

If the best example you have to point out for your chapter's "flaw" is one scene in the Space Marine video game where NPC Character Guy says something stupid so Awesome Hero Guy (also an Ultramarine) can pimp-slap him and look extra smart and cool, it's not a good flaw.

Lets take a peek at the "Ultramarines" page of the Imperium 1 Index. Does it mention this "flaw?" Oh, there it is, it says they adhere rigidly to the codex astartes. And then it goes on to say how that makes them awesome strategic geniuses and masters of war who nobody can ever match.

So flawed. Much deep. Character very three dimensional.

And that's somehow worse than the Space Wolves lore?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
UM's are the boring of boring.

I'd actually say their flaw is more interesting then being "super secretive or drinking blood and or turning into weird not werewolves, because it's all psychological.

The Ultramarines fight extremely rigidly everything coming from their codex treating it almost like a bible, which is they more or less share a psychological defect like the Iron hands, believing that flesh is weak and they have the need to replace limbs and remove their emotions.

To me the most interesting chapters are the ones with psychological flaws

Yeah their flaw is so subtle and interesting that it doesn't exist most of the time they're portrayed as the perfect heroes who are the best at everything and save the day in glorious noblebright fashion.

If the best example you have to point out for your chapter's "flaw" is one scene in the Space Marine video game where NPC Character Guy says something stupid so Awesome Hero Guy (also an Ultramarine) can pimp-slap him and look extra smart and cool, it's not a good flaw.

Lets take a peek at the "Ultramarines" page of the Imperium 1 Index. Does it mention this "flaw?" Oh, there it is, it says they adhere rigidly to the codex astartes. And then it goes on to say how that makes them awesome strategic geniuses and masters of war who nobody can ever match.

So flawed. Much deep. Character very three dimensional.

And that's somehow worse than the Space Wolves lore?

I have to agree with that. Space wolves are worse. Just the wolves make them more laughable more of a laugh than a threat.

The thing about Ultras is that they're fething everywhere. If you dislike Space Wolves, you can pretty much ignore them. They have their own book, and in the fluff they're pretty insignificant. GW has been focusing on Ultras for several editions, and now their bloody Primarch is running the Imperium and is a linchpin of every competitive Space Marine army, so if you don't want to include him you're intentionally gimping yourself. It's like Mat Ward's wet dream now.

I've noticed an upsurge in ultramarines fanboyism over guilliman, which is disappointing.

I never really hated UMs (or marines in general, thus my Blood Angels army), but now I'm starting to specifically because of that.

Remember when 40k was grimdark, and even the ultramarines were handed serious losses, like on Macragge?

Yeah, that's apparently not the 40k some players play in, because Guilliman is back so they can never lose and everyone loves them and because of the ultramarines the Imperium is Strongk! and united and perfect and pure! and I'm going to fething throw up.

It's like the video game producer Blizzard. On their own, nothing really wrong with them, they do some okay stuff. But their fanboys on the other hand...

Just checking back in to confirm to everyone that Ultramarines are still bad.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Just checking back in to confirm to everyone that Ultramarines are still bad.

Nope

Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines. I personally am perfectly fine with my army of them from the days of 2nd edition.

Frankly might have arguably the worst flaw there is alongside the Iron Hands: the danger of following something unquestioningly. At least they don't have a salvaged murderous dreadnought from a planet called 'kill everything', or Blood Missiles on their aircraft, or gloss over the fact that evidently some new Primaris additions were practically immediately let in on their deepest, darkest secret and how background-breaking that is.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines. I personally am perfectly fine with my army of them from the days of 2nd edition.

Frankly might have arguably the worst flaw there is alongside the Iron Hands: the danger of following something unquestioningly. At least they don't have a salvaged murderous dreadnought from a planet called 'kill everything', or Blood Missiles on their aircraft, or gloss over the fact that evidently some new Primaris additions were practically immediately let in on their deepest, darkest secret and how background-breaking that is.

"The presence of other things that are dumb makes my thing not dumb" is a terrible argument.

This is like someone saying "Superman is boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue" and replying with "Yeah, but you know what else DC has written? Calendar Man. Calendar Man is the freaking stupidest thing, and therefore Superman is not boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue."

Let's take a look at the Space Wolves fluff blurb from the same book that did not list a SINGLE FLAW when describing the ultramarines (their rigid adherence to the codex was listed as something that made them unstoppable and strategic geniuses, remember).

Oh look, it mentions the fact that they were tricked by horus into destroying a paradise world. That they have a flaw in their geneseed that transforms them into monsters. They're famously short tempered and stubborn, and they have many enemies within the imperium, including the Dark Angels.

Look! Things that could possibly be construed as NEGATIVE ATTRIBUTES! Does that make their naming conventions any less stupid? Does that make the Wulfen miniatures not cartoons? no. Is it exceeding the bare minimum requirement to make the core concept of their faction better than mindless bolterporn fanfiction? Yes.

The Whataboutery is predictable and dull at this point. The existence of bad elements of other factions does not make ultramarines not bad.

the_scotsman wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines. I personally am perfectly fine with my army of them from the days of 2nd edition.

Frankly might have arguably the worst flaw there is alongside the Iron Hands: the danger of following something unquestioningly. At least they don't have a salvaged murderous dreadnought from a planet called 'kill everything', or Blood Missiles on their aircraft, or gloss over the fact that evidently some new Primaris additions were practically immediately let in on their deepest, darkest secret and how background-breaking that is.

"The presence of other things that are dumb makes my thing not dumb" is a terrible argument.

This is like someone saying "Superman is boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue" and replying with "Yeah, but you know what else DC has written? Calendar Man. Calendar Man is the freaking stupidest thing, and therefore Superman is not boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue."

Let's take a look at the Space Wolves fluff blurb from the same book that did not list a SINGLE FLAW when describing the ultramarines (their rigid adherence to the codex was listed as something that made them unstoppable and strategic geniuses, remember).

Oh look, it mentions the fact that they were tricked by horus into destroying a paradise world. That they have a flaw in their geneseed that transforms them into monsters. They're famously short tempered and stubborn, and they have many enemies within the imperium, including the Dark Angels.

Look! Things that could possibly be construed as NEGATIVE ATTRIBUTES! Does that make their naming conventions any less stupid? Does that make the Wulfen miniatures not cartoons? no. Is it exceeding the bare minimum requirement to make the core concept of their faction better than mindless bolterporn fanfiction? Yes.

The Whataboutery is predictable and dull at this point. The existence of bad elements of other factions does not make ultramarines not bad.

They're only negative attributes if it affects them. How many of the Space Wolves' negative attributes have actually affected them badly?

Destroyed Prospero. Oh wow. They followed the orders they were given. Is that any different to what happened to the Ultramarines at Monarchia? And, further to that, the Ultramarines lost a VAST portion of their Legion as a result of the Word Bearer's revenge - if any other Legion had suffered those losses, they'd be out of the Heresy. So, either the Ultramarines "one-up" the Space Wolves, or it's really not a flaw.

The Canis Helix flaw - that affects them in two ways - one, they can't have successors. Two, they mutate into Wulfen. And how does either affect them in-universe... they don't. The SW have a considerably larger Chapter than others, which counteracts the lack of Successors (which, again, wouldn't affect the Space Wolves themselves anyway. It just means they don't have direct genetic progeny). The Wulfen are stronger, faster and tougher than normal Astartes, and haven't been ostricised from the Imperium because of it. Hell, they outright went to WAR against the Inquisition and they got off scot free. You can't call the Wulfen a flaw if it doesn't actually hinder them. Even their relationship with the Dark Angels, at least, prior to the War on Fenris, was more friendly rivalry, hence the Two Champions duel. They only fell out due to the Changeling, NOT even due to the Wulfen themselves.

So, what flaws DO the Wolves have?

At least with the Ultramarines, we see their adherance to the Codex hurt them against the Tyranids and Tau, their pride hurt them at Damnos and their relationship with the Lamenters, and even Calgar is suffering with Guilliman's return making him irrelevant. Plus, on a meta-level, the Ultramarines are disliked PURELY FOR BEING THERE. Between their name, and the fact that GW chose them instead of *insert Chapter here* to be the poster boys, they're given disproportionate amounts of hate.
Saying they're dull or boring is subjective - anyone is more than welcome to say that about anything. But saying they're one-dimensional and 100% mary sue is simply not true, in the fact that I can point out the relevant flaws above that disprove that.

I've never seen (in person) or played against ultras. I don't hate them but I would rather play against chaos or xenos before I'd play them.

luckily nobody in my local group plays ultras so I don't have to worry about it.

i do have a problem with how they're the default chapter/color scheme for all marine vehicles. It would be nice if they had other chapters on the front of the box (sw,da,ba aside).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines. I personally am perfectly fine with my army of them from the days of 2nd edition.

Frankly might have arguably the worst flaw there is alongside the Iron Hands: the danger of following something unquestioningly. At least they don't have a salvaged murderous dreadnought from a planet called 'kill everything', or Blood Missiles on their aircraft, or gloss over the fact that evidently some new Primaris additions were practically immediately let in on their deepest, darkest secret and how background-breaking that is.

"The presence of other things that are dumb makes my thing not dumb" is a terrible argument.

This is like someone saying "Superman is boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue" and replying with "Yeah, but you know what else DC has written? Calendar Man. Calendar Man is the freaking stupidest thing, and therefore Superman is not boring, one dimensional, and generally a mary sue."

Let's take a look at the Space Wolves fluff blurb from the same book that did not list a SINGLE FLAW when describing the ultramarines (their rigid adherence to the codex was listed as something that made them unstoppable and strategic geniuses, remember).

Oh look, it mentions the fact that they were tricked by horus into destroying a paradise world. That they have a flaw in their geneseed that transforms them into monsters. They're famously short tempered and stubborn, and they have many enemies within the imperium, including the Dark Angels.

Look! Things that could possibly be construed as NEGATIVE ATTRIBUTES! Does that make their naming conventions any less stupid? Does that make the Wulfen miniatures not cartoons? no. Is it exceeding the bare minimum requirement to make the core concept of their faction better than mindless bolterporn fanfiction? Yes.

The Whataboutery is predictable and dull at this point. The existence of bad elements of other factions does not make ultramarines not bad.

They're only negative attributes if it affects them. How many of the Space Wolves' negative attributes have actually affected them badly?

Destroyed Prospero. Oh wow. They followed the orders they were given. Is that any different to what happened to the Ultramarines at Monarchia? And, further to that, the Ultramarines lost a VAST portion of their Legion as a result of the Word Bearer's revenge - if any other Legion had suffered those losses, they'd be out of the Heresy. So, either the Ultramarines "one-up" the Space Wolves, or it's really not a flaw.

The Canis Helix flaw - that affects them in two ways - one, they can't have successors. Two, they mutate into Wulfen. And how does either affect them in-universe... they don't. The SW have a considerably larger Chapter than others, which counteracts the lack of Successors (which, again, wouldn't affect the Space Wolves themselves anyway. It just means they don't have direct genetic progeny). The Wulfen are stronger, faster and tougher than normal Astartes, and haven't been ostricised from the Imperium because of it. Hell, they outright went to WAR against the Inquisition and they got off scot free. You can't call the Wulfen a flaw if it doesn't actually hinder them. Even their relationship with the Dark Angels, at least, prior to the War on Fenris, was more friendly rivalry, hence the Two Champions duel. They only fell out due to the Changeling, NOT even due to the Wulfen themselves.

So, what flaws DO the Wolves have?

At least with the Ultramarines, we see their adherance to the Codex hurt them against the Tyranids and Tau, their pride hurt them at Damnos and their relationship with the Lamenters, and even Calgar is suffering with Guilliman's return making him irrelevant. Plus, on a meta-level, the Ultramarines are disliked PURELY FOR BEING THERE. Between their name, and the fact that GW chose them instead of *insert Chapter here* to be the poster boys, they're given disproportionate amounts of hate.
Saying they're dull or boring is subjective - anyone is more than welcome to say that about anything. But saying they're one-dimensional and 100% mary sue is simply not true, in the fact that I can point out the relevant flaws above that disprove that.

Like I said, people hate them because their Chapter Master sucks compared to Calgar. Simple as that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The Canis Helix flaw - that affects them in two ways - one, they can't have successors. Two, they mutate into Wulfen. And how does either affect them in-universe... they don't. The SW have a considerably larger Chapter than others, which counteracts the lack of Successors (which, again, wouldn't affect the Space Wolves themselves anyway. It just means they don't have direct genetic progeny). The Wulfen are stronger, faster and tougher than normal Astartes, and haven't been ostricised from the Imperium because of it. Hell, they outright went to WAR against the Inquisition and they got off scot free. You can't call the Wulfen a flaw if it doesn't actually hinder them. Even their relationship with the Dark Angels, at least, prior to the War on Fenris, was more friendly rivalry, hence the Two Champions duel. They only fell out due to the Changeling, NOT even due to the Wulfen themselves.

Incorrect or very recent fluff. There's been at least two named successors of the Space wolves: The wolf brothers and the brotherhood of the bear, and there's probably more. I was also under the impression that the wulfen where limited to the 13th company that'd been lost in the warp following Abbadons 13th crusade (lots of 13th there) and that the real issue for the Space wolves was their pack mentality that comes with the gene seed. They simply didn't change squads during their astartes careers and so where highly inflexible tactically. I'll admit to not having read their last codex so this stuff could have been retconned.

On the topic of the Ultramarines I have one argument that makes me like the Ultras that I've yet to see mentioned. It's largely a fluff reason but it translates neatly into the tabletop game as well. It's the simple fact that, after 10.000 years, the Ultramarines gene seed is the most stable. In itself this isn't intresting however it does have a few notable side effects. Notice how pretty much every chapters gene seed or culture (which tbh is pshychologically extended through the gene seed to every new astartes generation) has degraded since the Astartes inception. Preferences towards certain combat types will actually end up limiting in the grand scheme of things. Also space marines are rare and recruits are even rarer. Many recruits die before becomming scouts, many scouts die before recieving the black carpace and most marines die without ever becomming veterans. This stability of the gene seed will allow the Ultramarines a more reliable source of recruits and the ability to pass on a greater range of experiences. Lorewise this would definetly actually make the Ultramarines the most tactically flexible and capable chapter there is. They'd be able to reliably rebuild at a much greater rate then other chapters, with recruits that start of at a higher level then other chapters.
The second reason this is intresting is because of Ultramarines successors. Iirc the Ultras stand for the geene seed off 2/3 off the all chapters currently active in the Imperium (if someone could double check and confirm this that'd be great, I don't have my books). This'd mean that most chapters have a shared heritage and even if we read mostly about the big legion descendants, as a whole they don't really represent the Imperium well. The Ultramarines however do. This has a very neat interaction with the game mechanics. If you want your dudes, your chapter, but you don't want them to be foccused on the stuff that all the original legions are foccused on then chances are you can lorewise easily make them Ultramarines successors. The stories and reasons for whatever specialisation you want your chapter yo have, that doesn't fall under the other original legions, practically write themselves. It's litteraly a food for creativity.
A practical example of this. I played Ultramarines back in fourth but decided "eh, I want to make my own chapter". So I repainted some parts of them and voila, my own chapter was born. I think many people has gone through the exact same thing. The choice of lore for the poster boys and the game mechanics really fit well togheter on this one, which I like.

So as for my opinion on the Ultramarines today I'm largely indiffirent. I liked it back in 4ed when they actually had a divide within the chapter whenever to specislise against Tyranids or not. I didn't like it in 5ed when special characters rained on them and Sicarius was introduced. Now When they're crusading with Guilliman I feel "sure, cool enough". I gotta say that more then that it bugs me that Space marines have so many codexes and special stuff while most Xeno races and other factions must settle for less. Hell, remove a few Space marine chapter boxes and give us a few new diffrent plastic guard regiment boxes.

Edit: Also a cookie to sgt_smudge. It's been a treat reading your posts on this thread.

 Nerak wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The Canis Helix flaw - that affects them in two ways - one, they can't have successors. Two, they mutate into Wulfen. And how does either affect them in-universe... they don't. The SW have a considerably larger Chapter than others, which counteracts the lack of Successors (which, again, wouldn't affect the Space Wolves themselves anyway. It just means they don't have direct genetic progeny). The Wulfen are stronger, faster and tougher than normal Astartes, and haven't been ostricised from the Imperium because of it. Hell, they outright went to WAR against the Inquisition and they got off scot free. You can't call the Wulfen a flaw if it doesn't actually hinder them. Even their relationship with the Dark Angels, at least, prior to the War on Fenris, was more friendly rivalry, hence the Two Champions duel. They only fell out due to the Changeling, NOT even due to the Wulfen themselves.

Incorrect or very recent fluff. There's been at least two named successors of the Space wolves: The wolf brothers and the brotherhood of the bear, and there's probably more. I was also under the impression that the wulfen where limited to the 13th company that'd been lost in the warp following Abbadons 13th crusade (lots of 13th there) and that the real issue for the Space wolves was their pack mentality that comes with the gene seed. They simply didn't change squads during their astartes careers and so where highly inflexible tactically. I'll admit to not having read their last codex so this stuff could have been retconned.

My apologies - I knew of the Wolf Brothers, but I thought they were all extinct due to their faulty gene-seed. I'll admit I've never heard of the Brotherhood of the Bear, so I can't speak for that, and may be wrong on that!

The Wulfen "Curse" has been shown though to be contagious, at least, according to when they were recently reintroduced in Warzone Fenris.

Iirc the Ultras stand for the geene seed off 2/3 off the all chapters currently active in the Imperium (if someone could double check and confirm this that'd be great, I don't have my books).

5th supports this, as does 4th, to my knowledge. Again, neither book is on me.

I think this is an interesting point. The idea of memory and ability being passed down via geneseed always eludes me, so hearing how Ultramarine flexibility is passed down as a positive trait is something I'd not considered. Their ability to be "built up on" as a baseline is possibly a reason they are the poster boys? Maybe, still thinking on this. A good idea though.

Edit: Also a cookie to sgt_smudge. It's been a treat reading your posts on this thread.

They have? Normally I'm just worried about being a bit TOO zealous.

Unless something has changed from my knowledge of old fluff (I am not up to date) the 13th Company of the Space Wolves showed up during the latest Black Crusade around Cadia, rather than being lost there. They are the remnants of a group/company of full-on Heresy Era marines who went after the traitor forces as they fled into the Eye after the Heresy.

The Wolfen Curse showed up much more often in them as a defense against being in the Warp, as evidently Space Wolves are not awesome enough, so it was written that they are naturally more resistant to the Warp than other marines. And the 13th showed up on battlefields primarily because their psykers actually learned how to open Warp portals for travel, while actual Chaos Sorcerers did not have such an ability.

Some people are just super bitter about Ultramarines, in kind of an unhealthy way about a fictional force, if you ask me. Every other Chapter has has some absolute doozies of Deus ex machina that made them special snowflakes in their own way, and they get nowhere near the vitriol. Hell, Corax was given express permission from the Emperor to make what were essentially Primaris Marines, if it weren't for the Alpha Legions interference, and the 13th Company were basically Space Wolf-only Primaris Marine reinforcements, as they essentially all were described as having Wolf Guard levels of skill, and a better stat line than standard Space Wolves.

Maybe it's because I was a fan of the Ultramarines back when they were simply the basic standard of non-special marines.

 Melissia wrote:
I've noticed an upsurge in ultramarines fanboyism over guilliman, which is disappointing.

I never really hated UMs (or marines in general, thus my Blood Angels army), but now I'm starting to specifically because of that.

Remember when 40k was grimdark, and even the ultramarines were handed serious losses, like on Macragge?

Yeah, that's apparently not the 40k some players play in, because Guilliman is back so they can never lose and everyone loves them and because of the ultramarines the Imperium is Strongk! and united and perfect and pure! and I'm going to fething throw up.

It's like the video game producer Blizzard. On their own, nothing really wrong with them, they do some okay stuff. But their fanboys on the other hand...

Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman. It went from grimdark/10 minutes till midnight to: the next great crusade. At least now other chapters have a reason to consider ultramarines to be their spiritual liege: they have a frickin primarch backing them up. I'm close to being a fanboi and i don't even like the colour blue......

ZebioLizard2 wrote:As you can see OP, many people still do hate the Ultramarines.. Many for less then stellar reasons that's for sure. And given a few, some just wanted it to be their special snowflake chapter that became the frontrunner.

Nope, just didn't want the status or history of my own chapter and its founding Legion to be pissed upon because of fanboi-ism within the writing.

Nerak wrote:On the topic of the Ultramarines I have one argument that makes me like the Ultras that I've yet to see mentioned. It's largely a fluff reason but it translates neatly into the tabletop game as well. It's the simple fact that, after 10.000 years, the Ultramarines gene seed is the most stable. In itself this isn't intresting however it does have a few notable side effects. Notice how pretty much every chapters gene seed or culture (which tbh is pshychologically extended through the gene seed to every new astartes generation) has degraded since the Astartes inception. Preferences towards certain combat types will actually end up limiting in the grand scheme of things. Also space marines are rare and recruits are even rarer. Many recruits die before becomming scouts, many scouts die before recieving the black carpace and most marines die without ever becomming veterans. This stability of the gene seed will allow the Ultramarines a more reliable source of recruits and the ability to pass on a greater range of experiences. Lorewise this would definetly actually make the Ultramarines the most tactically flexible and capable chapter there is. They'd be able to reliably rebuild at a much greater rate then other chapters, with recruits that start of at a higher level then other chapters.

While the stability thing is documented, it also bears repeating that not every Legion has the level of deviancy that the others do. The Salamanders' defect is cause by specific reaction to a specific radiation. Hardly Blood Angels level deviation. The Dark Angels had no deviations that I am aware of, only Luther's betrayal and the Fallen that followed him. The Imperial Fists and there successors lost the acid spit and the walking sleep gland in the brain (names both escape me, not wasting what little break I have at work to google it.), yet have around 12 chapters total, possibly more. I know that the Feast of Blades is nothing but IF and their successors, so a starting point. However...

Nerak wrote:The second reason this is intresting is because of Ultramarines successors. Iirc the Ultras stand for the geene seed off 2/3 off the all chapters currently active in the Imperium (if someone could double check and confirm this that'd be great, I don't have my books). This'd mean that most chapters have a shared heritage and even if we read mostly about the big legion descendants, as a whole they don't really represent the Imperium well. The Ultramarines however do. This has a very neat interaction with the game mechanics. If you want your dudes, your chapter, but you don't want them to be foccused on the stuff that all the original legions are foccused on then chances are you can lorewise easily make them Ultramarines successors. The stories and reasons for whatever specialisation you want your chapter yo have, that doesn't fall under the other original legions, practically write themselves. It's litteraly a food for creativity.
A practical example of this. I played Ultramarines back in fourth but decided "eh, I want to make my own chapter". So I repainted some parts of them and voila, my own chapter was born. I think many people has gone through the exact same thing. The choice of lore for the poster boys and the game mechanics really fit well togheter on this one, which I like.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Destroyed Prospero. Oh wow. They followed the orders they were given. Is that any different to what happened to the Ultramarines at Monarchia? And, further to that, the Ultramarines lost a VAST portion of their Legion as a result of the Word Bearer's revenge - if any other Legion had suffered those losses, they'd be out of the Heresy. So, either the Ultramarines "one-up" the Space Wolves, or it's really not a flaw.

This is the major spot of contention for me. And for the record, the 2/3 thing was in the 3rd Ed. codex as well. What was luckily the largest Legion was out quelling an Eldar incursion (read: obliterating a dozen Exodites armed with slingshots) while the thick of the Heresy was happening. Horus supposedly engineered it so that the largest force would be away from the battle, rather than coming up with ways to whittle them down. Sounds about right.

My personal theory is that the Ultramarines were the back up in case the Heresy forces floundered and failed. In the end Guilleman decided to grab the power of the Imperium in the Emperor's name rather than tear it down as Horus tried. This would also be why Fulgrim poisoned him. Had he gone directly after Fulgrim after awakening, it'd be perfect.

I also plan on doing a Chaos Marine army in Ultramarines 1st Company livery. The Macragge story was a cover up...

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines.

Summed it up pretty much. If you don't hate UM you aren't cool.

Nope, just didn't want the status or history of my own chapter and its founding Legion to be pissed upon because of fanboi-ism within the writing.

Because instead of wanting to make a Vanilla codex.. They made Ultramarines, they made Dark Angels, they made Space Wolves and Blood Angels rather then a generic "Angels of Death".

tneva82 wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I think most of the hate for Ultramarines is the need to be part of the 'in' crowd, and all the cool kids hate Ultramarines.

Summed it up pretty much. If you don't hate UM you aren't cool.

The hipster curse. "Lamestream armies for squares"

See also: Black Legion, Cadian Shock Troops

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Nope, just didn't want the status or history of my own chapter and its founding Legion to be pissed upon because of fanboi-ism within the writing.

Because instead of wanting to make a Vanilla codex.. They made Ultramarines, they made Dark Angels, they made Space Wolves and Blood Angels rather then a generic "Angels of Death".

OR

What I wanted was a Codex: Space Marines, which we eventually got. Now it has devolved to being named Codex: Space Marines while everything within screams Codex: Ultramarines. Don't like. And for the record, I would have been fine with the 3rd Edition Codex had ANY chapter been on the front, as it didn't slather the Ultramarines like every codex since.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman. It went from grimdark/10 minutes till midnight to: the next great crusade. At least now other chapters have a reason to consider ultramarines to be their spiritual liege: they have a frickin primarch backing them up.

This is the absolute worst! Even if you liked the change, it is probably not hard to understand how upheaval of this magnitude might annoy some people.

Meh. Ultras are kewl. Love their Vanilla Roman look and feel.

Space Wolves are even more awesome. Largest fanbase according to ADB and kickass Viking Werewolf look.

Love them until death.

Weap heretics.

Just Tony wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:As you can see OP, many people still do hate the Ultramarines.. Many for less then stellar reasons that's for sure. And given a few, some just wanted it to be their special snowflake chapter that became the frontrunner.

Nope, just didn't want the status or history of my own chapter and its founding Legion to be pissed upon because of fanboi-ism within the writing.

Ward's "work" was three editions ago.

If what he wrote was fanboi-ism, does that mean it's stupid to like Sanguinius or Horus in 30k? After all, they were painted as the Best of the Best Primarchs, and the others looked up to them.

Nerak wrote:On the topic of the Ultramarines I have one argument that makes me like the Ultras that I've yet to see mentioned. It's largely a fluff reason but it translates neatly into the tabletop game as well. It's the simple fact that, after 10.000 years, the Ultramarines gene seed is the most stable. In itself this isn't intresting however it does have a few notable side effects. Notice how pretty much every chapters gene seed or culture (which tbh is pshychologically extended through the gene seed to every new astartes generation) has degraded since the Astartes inception. Preferences towards certain combat types will actually end up limiting in the grand scheme of things. Also space marines are rare and recruits are even rarer. Many recruits die before becomming scouts, many scouts die before recieving the black carpace and most marines die without ever becomming veterans. This stability of the gene seed will allow the Ultramarines a more reliable source of recruits and the ability to pass on a greater range of experiences. Lorewise this would definetly actually make the Ultramarines the most tactically flexible and capable chapter there is. They'd be able to reliably rebuild at a much greater rate then other chapters, with recruits that start of at a higher level then other chapters.

While the stability thing is documented, it also bears repeating that not every Legion has the level of deviancy that the others do. The Salamanders' defect is cause by specific reaction to a specific radiation. Hardly Blood Angels level deviation. The Dark Angels had no deviations that I am aware of, only Luther's betrayal and the Fallen that followed him. The Imperial Fists and there successors lost the acid spit and the walking sleep gland in the brain (names both escape me, not wasting what little break I have at work to google it.), yet have around 12 chapters total, possibly more. I know that the Feast of Blades is nothing but IF and their successors, so a starting point. However...

All the same, the Ultramarines are most favoured because their geneseed IS one of the most stable - more so than any other, except the very reclusive and secretive Dark Angels and their descendants. With the Ultramarines willing to work alongside the Imperium so readily and their stock being as reliable as it is, it's no wonder they're chosen so much. Not to mention they founded the most Successors by having the largest Legion, which contributed yet MORE geneseed to Terra.

Nerak wrote:The second reason this is intresting is because of Ultramarines successors. Iirc the Ultras stand for the geene seed off 2/3 off the all chapters currently active in the Imperium (if someone could double check and confirm this that'd be great, I don't have my books). This'd mean that most chapters have a shared heritage and even if we read mostly about the big legion descendants, as a whole they don't really represent the Imperium well. The Ultramarines however do. This has a very neat interaction with the game mechanics. If you want your dudes, your chapter, but you don't want them to be foccused on the stuff that all the original legions are foccused on then chances are you can lorewise easily make them Ultramarines successors. The stories and reasons for whatever specialisation you want your chapter yo have, that doesn't fall under the other original legions, practically write themselves. It's litteraly a food for creativity.
A practical example of this. I played Ultramarines back in fourth but decided "eh, I want to make my own chapter". So I repainted some parts of them and voila, my own chapter was born. I think many people has gone through the exact same thing. The choice of lore for the poster boys and the game mechanics really fit well togheter on this one, which I like.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Destroyed Prospero. Oh wow. They followed the orders they were given. Is that any different to what happened to the Ultramarines at Monarchia? And, further to that, the Ultramarines lost a VAST portion of their Legion as a result of the Word Bearer's revenge - if any other Legion had suffered those losses, they'd be out of the Heresy. So, either the Ultramarines "one-up" the Space Wolves, or it's really not a flaw.

This is the major spot of contention for me. And for the record, the 2/3 thing was in the 3rd Ed. codex as well. What was luckily the largest Legion was out quelling an Eldar incursion (read: obliterating a dozen Exodites armed with slingshots) while the thick of the Heresy was happening. Horus supposedly engineered it so that the largest force would be away from the battle, rather than coming up with ways to whittle them down. Sounds about right.

Well, that's been retconned now to the Ultramarines being told by Horus to fight some Orks with the Word Bearers, in a good old fashioned bonding exercise, only for the Word Bearers to slaughter them at muster. The Ultramarines were kept isolated and brutalised before they could inflict harm on Horus' forces, but they were certainly not aiding Horus, as you suggest below.

If we didn't have the HH books, you might have a point, but considering we do see the Calth Atrocity, there's no way it holds under current canon.

My personal theory is that the Ultramarines were the back up in case the Heresy forces floundered and failed. In the end Guilleman decided to grab the power of the Imperium in the Emperor's name rather than tear it down as Horus tried. This would also be why Fulgrim poisoned him. Had he gone directly after Fulgrim after awakening, it'd be perfect.

 Torga_DW wrote:
Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman..

Not to me. Guilliman cannot save the Imperium from itself on his own. 40k is far too grimdark for that. I know there's a lot of fanboys who want to make him out to be an unbeatable mary sue character who can do everything and fix the galaxy, but... he can't. That's beyond him. Even he has doubts about his own ability, and justifiable doubts at that.

 Melissia wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman..

Not to me. Guilliman cannot save the Imperium from itself on his own. 40k is far too grimdark for that. I know there's a lot of fanboys who want to make him out to be an unbeatable mary sue character who can do everything and fix the galaxy, but... he can't. That's beyond him. Even he has doubts about his own ability, and justifiable doubts at that.

He even had to play nice with the Imperial factions, given that he really hates the idea of being considered an Imperial Saint and the idea that the Ecchlesiarchy forced upon him.. But they are too strong to really root out and it does give the people hope, even as he's forced to acquiescence to their presence.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I've noticed an upsurge in ultramarines fanboyism over guilliman, which is disappointing.

I never really hated UMs (or marines in general, thus my Blood Angels army), but now I'm starting to specifically because of that.

Remember when 40k was grimdark, and even the ultramarines were handed serious losses, like on Macragge?

Yeah, that's apparently not the 40k some players play in, because Guilliman is back so they can never lose and everyone loves them and because of the ultramarines the Imperium is Strongk! and united and perfect and pure! and I'm going to fething throw up.

It's like the video game producer Blizzard. On their own, nothing really wrong with them, they do some okay stuff. But their fanboys on the other hand...

Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman. It went from grimdark/10 minutes till midnight to: the next great crusade. At least now other chapters have a reason to consider ultramarines to be their spiritual liege: they have a frickin primarch backing them up. I'm close to being a fanboi and i don't even like the colour blue......

It's okay to like winners. It is natural.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Well in fairness, the whole tone of the game changed with the reintroduction of girlyman..

Not to me. Guilliman cannot save the Imperium from itself on his own. 40k is far too grimdark for that. I know there's a lot of fanboys who want to make him out to be an unbeatable mary sue character who can do everything and fix the galaxy, but... he can't. That's beyond him. Even he has doubts about his own ability, and justifiable doubts at that.

Out of all the primarchs - he wasn't the fastest or the strongest. But he was the smartest, most political, most logistical. If anyone can do it, it is Guilliman. That's why people hate him. Also being in direct command of all imperial forces really get's to some people.

Nobody plays them by me. They're considered the clownshoes of the entire hobby.