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 BaconCatBug wrote:
And yet, it doesn't matter because the unit is never put from reserves onto the battlefield.

Yeah, I'm not even going to dignify that by treating it as a real argument. Why don't you run along and come back when you plan to, y'know, actually provide and explain your reasoning, instead of this weird idea you have that you can just make proclamations and people will just accept them. They don't, and the sooner you stop thinking you're some magical authority who doesn't have to defend their reasoning, the sooner people will actually be concerned with what you have to say. Other people have provided their reasoning for why they have arrived from reserves onto the battlefield, if you disagree, it's on you to actually refute it.

My reasoning should be pretty obvious. They disembark from the transport, they don't arrive from reserves.

Again, if models disembarking from a Drop Pod count as arriving from reserves, so do models disembarking from a Wave Serpent that arrives from reserve, even if it's been 3 turns since the Wave Serpent arrived.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And yet, it doesn't matter because the unit is never put from reserves onto the battlefield.

The unit arrived with the wave serpent. There's two conditions to qualify for Auspex scan - arrive from reinforcements, and set up on the battlefield.

The unit arrived from reinforcements (embarked in Wave Serpent), but it didn't set up on the battlefield. Auspex Scan isn't triggered on the embarked unit - not only is it embarked (therefore immune to enemy action), but it's not set up on the battlefield.

When the unit disembarks later in the game (in an entirely normal fashion), it is set up on the battlefield, but it didn't arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game. Again, Auspex Scan isn't triggered.

Units in drop pods BOTH arrive from reinforcements (one of those 'esoteric methods' mentioned) and are set up on the battlefield in the context of Drop Pod Assault. Auspex Scan can therefore be triggered.

If you want to follow your logic to conclusion, then units embarked in the Wave Serpents that don't disembark before the end of the game would be destroyed like any other Reinforcement that has not arrived on the battlefield.

Note that Reinforcements have their own rules attached to them, so it's easy to tell when a unit is a reinforcement. It cannot move or Advance and it counts as having moved for the purposes of shooting. So:

Does the unit deploying from Drop Pod Assault have the ability to move, advance and fire heavy weapons unhindered? Well, no to the first - because they arrived at the end of the movement phase, and no to the second, by virtue of having Disembarked a vehicle. Functionally identical to the normal restrictions on Reinforcements arriving, probably because that's exactly what they are.

Does a unit in a Wave Serpent suffer the same flaws once it Disembarks in a later turn? I'll bet most would say they can move normally because they Disembarked normally , though they suffer heavy weapon penalties by virtue of Disembarking. This is pretty clear indication that they have NOT arrived from Reinforcements when they Disembark later in the game. Arriving from Reinforcements and being set up on the table can be separate events, or they can be a single event. It's hard to argue that Drop Pod Assault isn't a single event, because it all happens immediately by virtue of a single special rule. It's a single event called "Drop Pod Assault".

 John Prins wrote:
When the unit disembarks later in the game (in an entirely normal fashion), it is set up on the battlefield, but it didn't arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game. Again, Auspex Scan isn't triggered.

A unit that disembarks from a Drop Pod also doesn't "arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game" either.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
When the unit disembarks later in the game (in an entirely normal fashion), it is set up on the battlefield, but it didn't arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game. Again, Auspex Scan isn't triggered.

A unit that disembarks from a Drop Pod also doesn't "arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game" either.

Ah. Okay. So you'd agree, then, that they are destroyed at the end of turn three?

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
When the unit disembarks later in the game (in an entirely normal fashion), it is set up on the battlefield, but it didn't arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game. Again, Auspex Scan isn't triggered.

A unit that disembarks from a Drop Pod also doesn't "arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game" either.

Ah. Okay. So you'd agree, then, that they are destroyed at the end of turn three?

RaW, yes, I agree.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
When the unit disembarks later in the game (in an entirely normal fashion), it is set up on the battlefield, but it didn't arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game. Again, Auspex Scan isn't triggered.

A unit that disembarks from a Drop Pod also doesn't "arrive from reinforcements at that time in the game" either.

All the restrictions that are subject to a unit that arrives from Reinforcements are in place on the unit. They can't move or advance for the same reason all the other reinforcements cannot - it is the end of the movement phase, movement is over. They can't fire heavy weapons without penalty - either from Disembarking or from the Reinforcement rule. That isn't clear but it is immaterial. Effectively, models arriving via the Drop Pod rule have all the same restrictions as any other unit that arrives from Reinforcements. This seems ENTIRELY intentional on GW's part. RAW is so close to RAI that the net effect on the unit is identical.

The unit arriving via Drop Pod Assault is arriving via a Reinforcement special rule (called Drop Pod Assault), therefore it is a Reinforcement. The rules for Reinforcements states that they have their own esoteric rules. Units disembarking from the Drop Pod are part of the esoteric rule for how the unit arrives from Reinforcement.

 John Prins wrote:
The unit arriving via Drop Pod Assault is arriving via a Reinforcement special rule (called Drop Pod Assault), therefore it is a Reinforcement. The rules for Reinforcements states that they have their own esoteric rules. Units disembarking from the Drop Pod are part of the esoteric rule for how the unit arrives from Reinforcement.

Pretty sure they arrive by using the Disembarking rules. Otherwise you could place them anywhere.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
The unit arriving via Drop Pod Assault is arriving via a Reinforcement special rule (called Drop Pod Assault), therefore it is a Reinforcement. The rules for Reinforcements states that they have their own esoteric rules. Units disembarking from the Drop Pod are part of the esoteric rule for how the unit arrives from Reinforcement.

Pretty sure they arrive by using the Disembarking rules. Otherwise you could place them anywhere.

Why do you think it's mutually exclusive?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
The unit arriving via Drop Pod Assault is arriving via a Reinforcement special rule (called Drop Pod Assault), therefore it is a Reinforcement. The rules for Reinforcements states that they have their own esoteric rules. Units disembarking from the Drop Pod are part of the esoteric rule for how the unit arrives from Reinforcement.

Pretty sure they arrive by using the Disembarking rules. Otherwise you could place them anywhere.

Disembarking rules say you can only do that at the start of the movement phase!

Drop pods only come from reinforcement at the end of the movement phase...

So both cant be right....but both are RAW....so that means one of them must break the rules as written and thus the ruling on the unit inside will be completely outside the normal order of battle....so they will not have to follow a strict pattern.

It's almost like the drop pod rule is telling you to disembark at a non standard time.

Raw the unit is arriving from reinforcements.

It was counted as reinforcements for deployment when it was put in the drop pod, it is arriving mid turn from reinforcements. Saying it's not reinforcements is saying it didn't count as an unit in reinforcements during deployment, that would be inaccurate.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's almost like the drop pod rule is telling you to disembark at a non standard time.

Yep

blaktoof wrote:
Raw the unit is arriving from reinforcements.

You say this despite nothing in the rules saying so? It literally says they disembark.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Raw the unit is arriving from reinforcements.

You say this despite nothing in the rules saying so? It literally says they disembark.

As part of the rule that allows them to arrive as reinforcements. It is possible to have them "disembark", as a part of arriving from reinforcements. The two are not mutually exclusive.

They might not be generally non-exclusive, but in this specific scenario they are.

The drop pod arrives on the battlefield from reinforcements
The unit arrives on the battlefield from the transport, which at this point in time is already on the battlefield.
So in this scenario, I do not believe that the unit arrives on the battlefield from reinforcements.

A hypothetical example of a non exclusive scenaeio might be. My rhino is in reinforcements. My tactical marines disembark and are placed on the battlefield while the rhino is not. Currently I do not believe there is a rule that would allow any army to do so.

For me this is crystal clear: the strategem cannot be used at all in this situation. In my gaming group we are quite casual, so I would be okay if the eldar shot the pod, but not the unit.
Until GW clarifies what they were thinking (or the exact lack thereof) that is

same with Militarium tempestium units, the Necron unit and any marine Auspex unit>?

Just so we know where you stand? Are you against the elder or in general any unit that has this?

No, I'm not anti-eldar here. The same argument of course counts for suspect scan and similar stratagems and for any other deep striking transport that unloads post arrival.

Johnbox24 wrote:
They might not be generally non-exclusive, but in this specific scenario they are.

The drop pod arrives on the battlefield from reinforcements
The unit arrives on the battlefield from the transport, which at this point in time is already on the battlefield.
So in this scenario, I do not believe that the unit arrives on the battlefield from reinforcements.

A hypothetical example of a non exclusive scenaeio might be. My rhino is in reinforcements. My tactical marines disembark and are placed on the battlefield while the rhino is not. Currently I do not believe there is a rule that would allow any army to do so.

For me this is crystal clear: the strategem cannot be used at all in this situation. In my gaming group we are quite casual, so I would be okay if the eldar shot the pod, but not the unit.
Until GW clarifies what they were thinking (or the exact lack thereof) that is

Except that the fact that the unit disembarks in no way means that they "arrive on the battlefield from the transport", text that is never in any way used in the rules for embarking and diembarking. The only time the term "arrive on the battlefield" is ever used is in regards to tactical reserves and rules that allow models to deploy elsewhere and arrive later. DPA is the rule that allows the unit in question to deploy elsewhere and arrive on the table later, and disembarking from the drop pod is part of the resolution of that rule. The fact that it uses the word disembark as a shorthand instead of spelling out the entire process again doesn't magically terminate the resolution of DPA and mean they are done "arriving".

They could easily have written DPA and being required to disembark as two different rules, to clearly dilineate them as separate rules, with disembarking not being part of arriving from reserves, but instead a separate rule that happens afterwards. They didn't. They wrote the rule with disembarking explicitly being part of arriving from reserves.

Seems like the unit can be shot to me. Just another reason to never use drop pods.

The Wave Serpent is set up as part of WWP. Debatable if the guys inside are 'set up', but immaterial: fulfilling the requirements of WWP doesn't involve the guys getting out. So, if they disembark next turn, they are set up as disembarking. They are not disembarking as [fulfilling a rule like WWP].

The DPA rule sets up the Drop Pod, then disembarks the squad. The Squad is then put on the table as setting up the unit. So they set up as disembarking units as DPA units, which are Reinforcements.

So the squad is placed as being 'Set up' as disembarking as DPA as Reinforcements. Much like a Marine is a <Chapter> unit is a Codex Astartes unit is an IoM unit. These things don't necessarily negate eachother.

blaktoof wrote:
Raw the unit is arriving from reinforcements.

It was counted as reinforcements for deployment when it was put in the drop pod, it is arriving mid turn from reinforcements. Saying it's not reinforcements is saying it didn't count as an unit in reinforcements during deployment, that would be inaccurate.

Can you point out where in the drop pod assault rule it says they are arriving as reinforcements? Last time I checked, they are arriving via disembark rules, and as such are not reinforcements.

If we are treating the units who disembark as reinforcements, then the same logic would apply to any unit disembarking from a dedicated transport. Yes, the units have to disembark right away. It doesn't matter if the unit disembarks turn 1, 2, or 3. Disembarking is not the same as arriving as reinforcements.

All of the arguments to support the idea that they are reinforcements depends on assumptions, and not on RaW.

Can you point to the rule that says DS-ing Termies are arriving from Reinforcements?

The Reinforcement rule talks about what counts as Reinforcements. There's discussion on that on the first page of the thread.

The argument is *not* that disembarking makes things count as reinforcements. The argument is that units the DPA rule sets up count as reinforcements. Specifically, the unit sets up as disembarking *as per DPA*, thus as reinforcements. Therefore, sets up as reinforcements.

Yet it doesn't state that passengers count as reinforcements, and they still snter via disembarking - not an arriving from reinforcements activity.

And, still, if they are reinforcements, they arrive as reinforcements when the drop pod lands...while they are still inside. It might be "immediately" after, but it's a different action for them to disembark. Disembarking from a vehicle isn't arriving as reinforcements, and at the point they may possibly count as reinforcements they are protected by the drop pod, so can't be shot.

It also doesn't say "The Drop Pod arrives as reinforcements".

The Reinforcements rule is what makes the Drop Pod 'reinforcements'.

That rule requires the unit to be "set up on the battlefield mid-turn", which clearly both the Pod and disembarking unit do.

It specifies "sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means". Drop Pod Assault is certainly 'more esoteric'.

There aren't any other specifications than those. Clearly units you're setting up using the 'Drop Pod Assault' rule are set up on the battlefield mid-turn. Clearly, it's some 'more esoteric' means.

So what allows the Drop Pod to be considered 'reinforcements', but the unit inside not?

You set the squad up immediately after placing the Drop Pod while executing the Drop Pod Assault. You don't set it up immediately after executing Drop Pod Assault. Setting up the squad isn't part of setting up the Drop Pod, but is part of setting up Drop Pod Assault.

It's quite obvious that we disagree on this one. I accept your arguments as an understandable interpretation, but still come to a different conclusion by my own understanding of the rules.

Guess we need to wait for a ruling by GW (which may never come).

Has this been added to the thread to have GW address? We really need them to weigh in here.

Yes, you can shoot at the units disembarking. Or the drop pod if you want. Both are arriving and being set up. If you don't want your troopers shot put then further than 12 inches away.

I see it that way, its really super easy.

So disembarking units are counted as reinforcements? Could you point me to where it says that in the BRB?

The 'Reinforcements' rule.

Can you point to the rule where a unit set up due to a reinforcements rule is as reinforcements, unless the rule involves disembarking?