Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Bharring wrote:
The 'Reinforcements' rule.

Can you point to the rule where a unit set up due to a reinforcements rule is as reinforcements, unless the rule involves disembarking?

The part where they are disembarking and not being set up via the reinforcement rules.

How is Drop Pod Assault not a Reinforcement rule?

Bharring wrote:
How is Drop Pod Assault not a Reinforcement rule?

It is, for the drop pod. The units inside the drop pod are embarked upon a vehicle and disembark when it arrives. Again, if that disembark counts then so does one from a wave serpent 5 turns after it arrives.

The point is, the rule is unclear and both arguments have some validity. It needs errata or a special snowflake FAQ ruling to make everyone happy and/or unhappy.

Where does it say units that are set up by some more esoteric means (Drop Pod Assault) are reinforcements, unless they disembark from a vehicle?

Drop Pod Assault sets up both the Pod and the Unit.

The guys disembarking from the Wave Serpent may have arrived as reinforcements 5 turns earlier, but were not set up as reinforcements. They were set up as disembarking as the player's decision (or as the wave serpent getting removed). So they are reinforcements. Just not being set up as, in this case.

Being set up 'as' something isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with being set up 'as' something else. Unless there's some rule somewhere that says so?

The unit inside the drop pod was in reinforcements with the drop pod, because the rule for drop pod assault allows you to put it in reinforcements with the drop pod.

When the pod arrives the unit disembarks, and is set up on the table. The unit just was set up from reinforcements where it was put with the drop pod, and disembarked.

If the unit was not reinforcements you would have to deployed it on the table during deployment.

The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Any claim that they were not reinforcements is saying you chose to not deploy them or play with them this game. They could not have been setup with the drop pod without being reinforcements.

blaktoof wrote:
The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Maybe from a "common sense" point of view, but not from a RaW point of view.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Maybe from a "common sense" point of view, but not from a RaW point of view.

From a RAW point of view the unit inside the drop pod was setup somewhere other than the table during deployment making it reinforcements.

From a RaW point of view they disembark from a vehicle, thus use the rules for disembarking, not reinforcements.

Otherwise, a unit that Deep Strikes inside a Wave Serpent would count as reinforcements when it disembarked 4 turns later.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
From a RaW point of view they disembark from a vehicle, thus use the rules for disembarking, not reinforcements.

Otherwise, a unit that Deep Strikes inside a Wave Serpent would count as reinforcements when it disembarked 4 turns later.

That's a ridiculous statement.

The drop pod doesn't count as reinforcements 4 turns after it's placed on the table.

The unit is placed in reinforcements along with the drop pod, yes or no?

If you summon a unit, it arrives as a summoned unit. It also arrives as reinforcements. Right?

What rule states that Disembarking makes a unit not Reinforcements?

The unit in the Serpent could be arguend to have arrived as Reinforcements on the turn the Serpent was placed. When they disembark, they are still reinforcements, but aren't being set up as Reinforcements - because you are not still executing that rule.

The Drop Pod Assualt rule sets up the pod *and* sets up the squad by disembarking them. You are still executing the Drop Pod Assault rule when setting up the disembarking unit. As mentioned upthread, you even couldn't disembark them *unless* the rule specifically allows you to - so if they weren't being set up under the Drop Pod Assault rule, they could not set up (RAW, casualties because of how DPA is written, even). Therefore, they are set up by the rule that fits reinforcements. Therefore, they are set up as reinforcements.

Disembarking from the Serpent 4 turns later is not using the Cloudstrike rule. So the units are reinforcements, but they are not setting up as reinforcements. Cloudstrike has nothing to do with the disembark.

blaktoof wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Maybe from a "common sense" point of view, but not from a RaW point of view.

From a RAW point of view the unit inside the drop pod was setup somewhere other than the table during deployment making it reinforcements.

Therefore any unit set up in any vechicle counts as refinforcements because they're set up somewhere other than the table during deployment, and can be shot at when they disembark by using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagems?

And must get out of their vehicle before the end of turn 3 or automatically die?

 doctortom wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Maybe from a "common sense" point of view, but not from a RaW point of view.

From a RAW point of view the unit inside the drop pod was setup somewhere other than the table during deployment making it reinforcements.

Therefore any unit set up in any vechicle counts as refinforcements because they're set up somewhere other than the table during deployment, and can be shot at when they disembark by using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagems?

And must get out of their vehicle before the end of turn 3 or automatically die?

The rules for transports tell you they are set up with the transports and you can deploy the passengers with the transport as one choice, none of which are reinforcements as they are deployed to the table. The embarked models are not physically on the table but the rules have you deploy them together. They are deployed.

The rules for drop pod assault have you put the unit in reinforcements with the drop pod, yes or no?

blaktoof wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit disembark ing from the drop pod is also being setup from reinforcements because that's where it was before it was on the table.

Maybe from a "common sense" point of view, but not from a RaW point of view.

From a RAW point of view the unit inside the drop pod was setup somewhere other than the table during deployment making it reinforcements.

Therefore any unit set up in any vechicle counts as refinforcements because they're set up somewhere other than the table during deployment, and can be shot at when they disembark by using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagems?

And must get out of their vehicle before the end of turn 3 or automatically die?

This also makes no sense.

The rules for transports tell you they are set up with the transports and you can deploy the passengers with the transport as one choice, none of which are reinforcements as they are deployed to the table. The embarked models are not physically on the table but the rules have you deploy them together. They are deployed.

The rules for drop pod assault have you put the unit in reinforcements with the drop pod, yes or no?

Then, if they're put in refinforcements, then they should be counting as reinforcements whenever they come out of the vehicle, right? As BCB has stated, that would mean units disembarking from a Cloud Striking Wave Serpent that started off the board would count as reinforcements since they were deployed off the table. Reinforcerments doesn't say there's an expiration time on counting as reinfocements if you started the game there. That would mean that if the wave serpents arrived turn 2, and you deployed some fire dragons from inside turn 3 (in order to keep them from being destroyed for not being on the board by the end of turn 3), they should still be counting as reinforcements when they get deployed.

If Drop Pod Assault were written more like, "Place this model anywhere that is more than 9 inches away from any enemy units. Then place any units transported by the Drop Pod within 3 inches of it (and more than 9 inches away from any enemy units)," it would be easier to work with. 'Transported' could be swapped out for a better conditional-trigger if need be (say, 'accompanying' or 'that were placed in reserves with'). The term, "Disembark" could be avoided altogether, and it would be possible to differentiate between units entering play via Drop Pod Assault being "Reinforcements" and units embarked on Wave Serpents (or Falcons...) entering play via Cloudstrike NOT being "Reinforcements" (for the purposes of triggering the Stratagems).

Or, the Stratagems could be re-written to more precisely describe the trigger conditions. /shrug

The guys hopping out of the Serpent are Reinforcements, but are not being set up as Reinforcements. Because Cloud Strike has nothing to do with them disembarking.

DPA sets up the disembarking unit. So they are set up as DPA.

Bharring wrote:
The guys hopping out of the Serpent are Reinforcements, but are not being set up as Reinforcements. Because Cloud Strike has nothing to do with them disembarking.

DPA sets up the disembarking unit. So they are set up as DPA.

Shouldn't matterr. If they are reinforcements, they're supposedly reiforcements until they hit the table, aren't they? Where a rule stating when the statute of limitations on them being counted as reinforcements expires if it they stop counting as refinforcements before you put them on the table?

The drop pod is set up on the table, then the units disembark.

In order to shoot the drop pod unit you'd have to make the case that you have line of sight to an embarked unit.

Just because they *must* disembark doesn't change the fact that they are indeed disembarking, and that can ONLY happen *after* the drop pod has arrived from reserves.

The drop pod, and the unit embarked inside, count as *one* object for the purposes of counting reserved units, just as a unit embarked on a vehicle on the table counts as *one* unit on the table.

Deep striking transports should provide some defense from this auspex scan, or the eldar equivalent. It makes intuitive sense. Drop pods are already overcosted trash, if they don't protect from stratagems like this i don't even know what to say.

Pods are trash, yeah.

@doctor,
It doesn't matter, but yes, the guys inside are still 'Reinforcements'. The argument is that when they disembark, unless they are doing so as a Reinforcement rule, they are setting up *as* reinforcements - they are simply setting up.

@Marmatag,
DPA sets up the Pod. Then DPA disembarks and sets up the unit. The rule isn't finished when the Pod is set up. The units inside are also being set up due to the DPA rule. And if setting up the Pod as per the DPA rule makes it reinforcements, why would setting up the unit as per the DPA rule not make them reinforcements?

Which brings us back to is there anything in disembarking that tells you to forget that you're setting up the disembarking units as per DPA?

If there is no expiration time on reinforcements would you allow a player to shoot terminators two turns after the turn they were placed on the table from reinforcements?

Or can we agree there is actually an obvious point In time the unit comes out of reinforcements and ends up on the table.

Bharring wrote:
Pods are trash, yeah.

@doctor,
It doesn't matter, but yes, the guys inside are still 'Reinforcements'. The argument is that when they disembark, unless they are doing so as a Reinforcement rule, they are setting up *as* reinforcements - they are simply setting up.

So, they're reinforcements that are setting up, but they're not setting up as reinforcements? Yeah, that logic sounds a bit dodgy.

""Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up
a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements
within 12" of one of your ADEPTUS ASTARTES Infantry
units."

If they're reinforcement that are arriving on the board, how do you say that when you set them up on the board they aren't set up as reinforcements? Where's the rules differentiating between reinforcements setting up as reinforcement and reinforcements that aren't setting up as reinforcements. Sounds like something that's being done by HIWPI and not RAW (or even RAI, but given how GW is I don't think anybody could accurately state what the RAI is)





Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
If there is no expiration time on reinforcements would you allow a player to shoot terminators two turns after the turn they were placed on the table from reinforcements?

Or can we agree there is actually an obvious point In time the unit comes out of reinforcements and ends up on the table.

You mean when the vehicle that they're in arrives from reinforcements, and they're in the vehicle when it is set up as reinforcements? And that disembarking after that is just plain disembarking? It seems the only consistent thing, one that also has some RAW bearing.

Is Arriving vs Has Arrived. Combined with the 'immediately after'.

That last statement is accurate, for as far as it goes.

If a unit is disembarking as the transport was destroyed, they are just plain disembarking, but also disembarking as the the transport was destroyed.

The RAW reading I have here is that 'as' means that they are set up per the Reinforcements rule. That could be argued, but then, the Pod - or the DSing termies - also wouldn't be 'set up as reinforcements'. I think we agree that far.

The difference is that the DPA rule sets up the units disembarking from the transport. Disembarking isn't naturally 'as reinforcements', but placing models per DPA is 'as reinforcements'. It's just aslo 'as disembarking in this case'.

To look at it another way, look at 'as casualties'. If you lose models to the Morale rules, you remove them per the Morale rules, but they are remove 'as casualties'. The Morale rule doesn't make them not 'as casualties', and the 'as casualties' doesn't mean they weren't removed as per the Morale rule.

The difference is you have the unit in your esample disembarking AS the vehicle is destroyed. DPA has the units disembarking AFTER the transport lands. "As" and "after" are two completely different things.

After the transport lands, DPA has you disembark the unit. It's still DPA that sets up the unit.

After you roll your to-hit attacks, you roll your to-wound attacks. The to-wound attacks are still part of your shooting.

The DPA rule is still actively setting up the unit - it doesn't end just because you did the first clause.

The unit was in reinforcements and when it is placed on the table arrived during that player turn from reinforcements.

Nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and was placed from reinforcements during the turn.

The unit arriving from reinforcements with a drop pod, disembarking from the drop pod does not change that the unit is coming from reinforcements that turn( it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and at the end of movement is not because it is on the table deployed) are an eligible target for auspex scan.

After all this back and forth I'm convinced of the following:


The unit inside a deep striking transport is considered reinforcements (meaning yes, if they don't disembark by turn 3 they are destroyed).

Forwarned/Auspex scan can be used to target either the pod, or the unit inside but not both. This is because to shoot the pod you would have to fire "imediately" after it touched the table or wait till the unit gets out and use it then.

blaktoof wrote:
The unit was in reinforcements and when it is placed on the table arrived during that player turn from reinforcements.

Nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and was placed from reinforcements during the turn.

The unit arriving from reinforcements with a drop pod, disembarking from the drop pod does not change that the unit is coming from reinforcements that turn( it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and at the end of movement is not because it is on the table deployed) are an eligible target for auspex scan.

If nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements, then there isn't anything to negate that it's still in reinforcements until put on the table, whether the same turn or in a later turn. With your statement you have to show how passengers in a cloud striking wave serpent stop counting as reinforcements before they disembark. And then, by extension, how come units normally embarked in a vehicle at the beginning of the game don't likewise get counted as reinforcements, are eligible to be shot at using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagem when disembarking, and will be destroyed by the end of turn 3 if they haven't disembarked.

 doctortom wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit was in reinforcements and when it is placed on the table arrived during that player turn from reinforcements.

Nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and was placed from reinforcements during the turn.

The unit arriving from reinforcements with a drop pod, disembarking from the drop pod does not change that the unit is coming from reinforcements that turn( it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and at the end of movement is not because it is on the table deployed) are an eligible target for auspex scan.

If nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements, then there isn't anything to negate that it's still in reinforcements until put on the table, whether the same turn or in a later turn. With your statement you have to show how passengers in a cloud striking wave serpent stop counting as reinforcements before they disembark. And then, by extension, how come units normally embarked in a vehicle at the beginning of the game don't likewise get counted as reinforcements, are eligible to be shot at using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagem when disembarking, and will be destroyed by the end of turn 3 if they haven't disembarked.

He's explained how several times, you're just ignoring it. The DPA unit counts as arriving from reinforcements because they were disembarked as part of DPA, the rule that allowed them to arrive as reinforcements. Their disembarkment is part of arriving from reinforcements. Hence the "immediately after arriving as reinforcements". Nothing about Cloud Strike allows the unit to disembark. Cloud Strike has resolved, the transport and the unit inside have finished arriving, and the game has moved well past the "immediately after" trigger before the unit inside has an opportunity to disembark, per the normal movement rules, not the rule that allowed the unit to arrive as reinforcements.

Units inside a transport normally at the start of the game don't count as reinforcements because the normal rules for embark/disembark do not fulfill the requirements for "tactical reserves" and they don't get destroyed at the end of turn three, because that rule is written in such a way that makes it clear that it is intended to refer to units in reserve.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit was in reinforcements and when it is placed on the table arrived during that player turn from reinforcements.

Nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and was placed from reinforcements during the turn.

The unit arriving from reinforcements with a drop pod, disembarking from the drop pod does not change that the unit is coming from reinforcements that turn( it was in reinforcements at the start of the turn and at the end of movement is not because it is on the table deployed) are an eligible target for auspex scan.

If nothing about transports or disembarking negates that it was in reinforcements, then there isn't anything to negate that it's still in reinforcements until put on the table, whether the same turn or in a later turn. With your statement you have to show how passengers in a cloud striking wave serpent stop counting as reinforcements before they disembark. And then, by extension, how come units normally embarked in a vehicle at the beginning of the game don't likewise get counted as reinforcements, are eligible to be shot at using the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagem when disembarking, and will be destroyed by the end of turn 3 if they haven't disembarked.

He's explained how several times, you're just ignoring it. The DPA unit counts as arriving from reinforcements because they were disembarked as part of DPA, the rule that allowed them to arrive as reinforcements. Their disembarkment is part of arriving from reinforcements. Hence the "immediately after arriving as reinforcements". Nothing about Cloud Strike allows the unit to disembark. Cloud Strike has resolved, the transport and the unit inside have finished arriving, and the game has moved well past the "immediately after" trigger before the unit inside has an opportunity to disembark, per the normal movement rules, not the rule that allowed the unit to arrive as reinforcements.

Nope, sorry, that does not explain it. If they're reinforcements when they're in the Wave Serpent at the start, they'd still be reinforcements when they disembark when they disembark. The rules for reinforcements do not have an "immediately after" trigger; there is no indication from the Refinforcements rule of how the ones Cloud Striking change their status before coming out. You people are insisting that things don't have to be mutually exclusive, so the Refinforcements status for infantry in the Wave Serpents - according to the precedents claimed by people here - would still be applicable until they are set up on the board. There is no statement that they lose refinforcements status. It doesn't matter if there is nothing about Cloud Strike that allows them to disembark; what matters about Cloud Strike is that they start with the Wave Serpent off the board and get Reinforcements status because of that. They are refinforcements, when they arrive on the board in whatever turn they should be arriving as reinforcements unless there's an established mechanism for them to stop counting. If it's a time factor, then it should be applicable to the infantry in the drop pod as well, regardless of whether those infantry embark as a separate action based on DPA. It's not consistent treating them different.

I think the conflation comes from "are reinforcements" and "as reinforcements". The guys bailing out of the serpent "are reinforcements", but they aren't disembarking because of, as per, or "as" reinforcements. The DPA dudes are set up as per Disembark, "as per" Reinforcements, under the DPA rule.

Time is a factor. The difference is that the DPA disembark happens as per the DPA rule, and during the execution of the DPA rule. The Serpent guys disembarking does not happen during or as per the WWP rule.

It is consistent treating them differently, because that they're disembarking isn't relevant. The ones from the DPA are being set up per DPA. The ones from the Serpent aren't being sset up per WWP.

Bharring wrote:
I think the conflation comes from "are reinforcements" and "as reinforcements". The guys bailing out of the serpent "are reinforcements", but they aren't disembarking because of, as per, or "as" reinforcements. The DPA dudes are set up as per Disembark, "as per" Reinforcements, under the DPA rule.

Time is a factor. The difference is that the DPA disembark happens as per the DPA rule, and during the execution of the DPA rule. The Serpent guys disembarking does not happen during or as per the WWP rule.

It is consistent treating them differently, because that they're disembarking isn't relevant. The ones from the DPA are being set up per DPA. The ones from the Serpent aren't being sset up per WWP.

This is entirely made up and has no basis in the rules as written in the rulebooks and codex.