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 Xenomancers wrote:

They became top tier when russes got the ability to shoot twice. Can't be certain. But I think that was a big factor...you know...shooting twice?

Except that Russes were severely underpowered before that change. Maybe they went too far, I haven't played with/against them enough to make a reasonable judgement (especially since about 2/3 died before getting to fire). However, my point is that the Russes were hardly OP when they got that ability.

Honestly though, it just seems like a rather clumsy fix for the randomness of blast weapons.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Its hands down better than the other orders. That's okay though?

This is just flat-out wrong.

On Conscripts or Infantry Squads with few/no Special or Heavy weapons who've closed to Rapid Fire range, sure. FRFSRF is a better offensive order. However, what about on other squads? HWSs have Lasguns but you're not going to be using FRFSRF on them. No, you'll be using Take Aim or such. Likewise, on Veteran Squads, SWSs and Scion Squads (especially ones with Plasma), you're going to be using Take Aim (or possibly even Elimination Protocols Sanctioned).

What's more, many other orders are niche by design. No, you won't use Move Move Move as a 'standard' order in most cases. However, when a squad needs to reposition or get to an objective, it becomes a hell of a lot more valuable than FRFSRF. Likewise, if a squad has had to fall back, FRFSRF will do it no good whatsoever.

 Xenomancers wrote:

For something to really be complained about - it has to be the absolute best thing you have in the codex. Am codex being OP all over the place. Most the complaints are about manticores and artillery carriage and those kinds of things.

Most complaints have been about every single thing in the book. Apparently there's not a single thing IG have that's not overpowered in some way.

Judging by the Conscript threads, many people won't be happy until IG infantry costs 20pts per model, Orders are removed altogether and any roll of 1 anywhere kills a HQ.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man...If only a farseer could cast guide on all of it's gardians - that would almost be as good as gardians all getting to shoot twice.

If only a Company Commander could use FRFSRF on a Baneblade and have it double the shots of every weapon.

If only a Company Commander could pick an enemy unit and have every unit in his army reroll wounds against it, as opposed to only being able to affect Infantry, having to do it squad by squad and it preventing him from using any other orders on that unit.

Hell, if only a Company Commander could take a Jetbike.

It's the best order to give to basic infantry squads that are shooting at other single wound infantry. IN that regard, it really does work as the fluff would indicate.

Yes, this does "double" the firepower of an infantry squad, but only if are talking about the lasgun firepower. 8th edition has really shown that naked infantry squads can work, but I still don't think it's a particulary abusive tactic. First, the squads in question are deeply fragile, both from direct firewpower and from morale (and don't even talk about assault!). Yes, when properly done, it's a ton of firepower: 9 lasguns at short range are 36 shots, 18 hits, and six wound on T4. So, about two dead marines. That's actually pretty good for basic weapons. For comparison, it would take 12 bolt rifle shots to do the same damage.

So, does that mean 55 points of IG are as good as 120pts of primaris? Probably not, because the primaris are hugely more durable to most damage and morale, and also are far better in assault.

Basic infantry squads can be hurt badly through incidental shooting. A twin storm bolter rhino can mulch half a squad.

So, I think it's a really good power that still exists in a world were the basic guardsman just doesn't do much.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Its hands down better than the other orders. That's okay though?

Oh, it's totally not the best. Take aim, under cadian doctrines, to static heavy weapon squads. True twinlinked squads!

For 192pts, you can take a cadian Spearhead with two Company Commanders and four Heavy WEapon squads with mortars. That's 12d6 shots, re-rolling hits, at S4. All with 48" Range and can fire out of LOS.

Or, splash in a lascannon into every one of those teams for fun.

But yes, for basic infantry squads, FRFSRF is mathematically the strongest, and a few of the doctrines have really buffed that, especially Tallarn, Vostroyan, Armageddon, or Mordian under stratagem.

If people are getting hot and bothered over 6 dudes in an infantry squad double shooting S3 AP0 Rapid Fire BS4+ lasguns when within 6" range of an officer that does nothing else but issue orders, there's probably better things to fret about

Honestly if anything the other orders need to be less niche.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly if anything the other orders need to be less niche.

Yeah, I think this is more relevant. Theres no problem with some orders being niche, and usefull in some tactical situations. But being too niche make them really... useless 99% of the time.

 Stormonu wrote:
I know, heresy. But as I have been looking over and compiling my AM army, I have begun to wonder if First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire is a bit too strong of an order - to the point it's pretty much an autouse.

My main concern is how it seems to overshadow both Grenade Launchers and Flamers. In both cases, a use of FRFSRF is clearly superior to either weapon, giving you 4 shots with FRFSRF vs. the Grenade Launcher's average 3 hits and the Flamer's (auto) average 3 hits.

Should FRFSRF be tweaked in some way? I was considering changing it to a +1 BS (with the idea being it massed fire that is more likely to strike the target) and possibly requiring the unit not move to utilize the order. Is this too much? Is there a better way to handle the order or is it fine as it is (and the GL & Flamer need a tweak)?

There's nothing wrong with FRFSRF, at the very most it should be put back to its old setting, where it only ever game one additional shot (so long range 2 shots, rapid fire range 3 shots).

Grenade Launchers are pretty much trash, that's not the fault of FRFSRF. You could remove FRFSRF entirely and people would still rely on lasguns for anti horde over grenade launchers. This has to do with the fact that GW just cannot get it through their heads that the Grenade Launcher serves no purpose in an IG army, even as a "jack of all trades" gun. It sucks at anti horde, it sucks at anti armor, it sucks trying to fill a general niche, etc. It desperately needs something to make it different and give it a niche.

Flamers do have a purpose, it's just not anti horde anymore. Ironically I find they tend to do best against heavier infantry and space marines. Best effect is normally a command squad or a SWS packing as many flamers as it can. Gives you a small model footprint that puts out a surprising amount of bolter quality shots. Combined with the Catachan order they can actually be pretty terrifying.


Essentially what it boils down to is that when lasguns are used in a proper way with FRFSRF it drastically outshines these 2 weapons 90% of the time, but even with FRFSRF I'd still rather have more lasguns. I use FRFSRF on infantry squads all the time and it is my primary source of anti infantry in my lists. I like that we have a reason to actually bring our troops unlike many codexes, and they fill a legitimate niche. Dropping FRFSRF wouldn't completely make them worthless, but it would definitely push IG towards more of the elite spam we always see other codexes go down.

And on top of that FRFSRF is an order, if a squad does that they're not doing "Forwards for the Emperor" "Move Move Move", "Take Aim!" or any other of the multiple great orders we have. It actually does have a lot of competition and when you play more games I think you'll start to realize FRFSRF isn't always the auto use order it's made out to be. It's good, absolutely, but there is a time and a place for pretty much every order we have and I really like that about our order system.

The absurd low cost of primaris psykers is definitely a bigger problem in the meta than any order. And a nerf or big price-hike on primaris psykers and malefic lords is almost certainly in the pipeline though.

If you were to compile a top ten of OP things in the meta right now, pretty much every competitive player would name primaris psykers and malefic lords as candidates, but I doubt that anybody would suggest FRFSRF or Guard orders in general. This may change in the future, but right now I think the order system should be kept as it is.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Grenade Launchers are pretty much trash, that's not the fault of FRFSRF. You could remove FRFSRF entirely and people would still rely on lasguns for anti horde over grenade launchers. This has to do with the fact that GW just cannot get it through their heads that the Grenade Launcher serves no purpose in an IG army, even as a "jack of all trades" gun. It sucks at anti horde, it sucks at anti armor, it sucks trying to fill a general niche, etc. It desperately needs something to make it different and give it a niche.

GL needs a boost to S4. Which then makes me thing the Frag missile needs a boost either to something like S4 AP-1 or S5, and/or up the number of "Attacks" it gets. A fragmentation missile should have more oompf than a launched grenade!

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Essentially what it boils down to is that when lasguns are used in a proper way with FRFSRF it drastically outshines these 2 weapons 90% of the time, but even with FRFSRF I'd still rather have more lasguns. I use FRFSRF on infantry squads all the time and it is my primary source of anti infantry in my lists. I like that we have a reason to actually bring our troops unlike many codexes, and they fill a legitimate niche. Dropping FRFSRF wouldn't completely make them worthless, but it would definitely push IG towards more of the elite spam we always see other codexes go down.

And on top of that FRFSRF is an order, if a squad does that they're not doing "Forwards for the Emperor" "Move Move Move", "Take Aim!" or any other of the multiple great orders we have. It actually does have a lot of competition and when you play more games I think you'll start to realize FRFSRF isn't always the auto use order it's made out to be. It's good, absolutely, but there is a time and a place for pretty much every order we have and I really like that about our order system.

You also can't really use it to maximum effect if you move unless you take the correct Doctrine.

M.

That does beg the question: how much ARE grenade launchers now? I don't see them anywhere. Anything above 5 points is probably too much.

 Vaktathi wrote:
If people are getting hot and bothered over 6 dudes in an infantry squad double shooting S3 AP0 Rapid Fire BS4+ lasguns when within 6" range of an officer that does nothing else but issue orders, there's probably better things to fret about

Considering the ocean of tears unleashed by people who struggled to down T3 5+ models I'm surprised this hasn't been removed by GW already.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:That does beg the question: how much ARE grenade launchers now? I don't see them anywhere. Anything above 5 points is probably too much.

Exactly 5 points. The problem is plasma is 7pts for an infantry squad, so GL's are pointless there, and on vets plasma is 13, but you're still gladly going to take plasma over GL's as a jack of all trades weapon. No matter what conceivable role you can come up with, some other special weapon does it better. Heck even the lasgun is more points efficient if you want S3 shooting in bulk, since you essentially just bring another guardsman. So it's not the most powerful AT, its not the best jack of all trades, it's not the best anti horde, it's not the cheapest, it's not really anything. The only possible use I've found for it is "I have a squad with a ton of special weapons slots and I've run out of plasma guns, melta guns, snipers, and flamer models" in that order. I mean they're not terrible, I've even killed things with my Grenade Launchers in 8th, but I make no mistake that they're taken solely for fluff and the fact that I already have the models painted.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
If people are getting hot and bothered over 6 dudes in an infantry squad double shooting S3 AP0 Rapid Fire BS4+ lasguns when within 6" range of an officer that does nothing else but issue orders, there's probably better things to fret about

Considering the ocean of tears unleashed by people who struggled to down T3 5+ models I'm surprised this hasn't been removed by GW already.

Give it time, once people actually realize that infantry squads aren't trash when taken in numbers we'll see threads complaining about them sooner or later
'

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Considering the ocean of tears unleashed by people who struggled to down T3 5+ models I'm surprised this hasn't been removed by GW already.

Give it time, once people actually realize that infantry squads aren't trash when taken in numbers we'll see threads complaining about them sooner or later
'

Yikes! I didn't realize orders had to be given to a specific unit - I mistakenly believed that it was just an area effect buff that affected all units within the command radius. That certainly changes things...

So what should be done to fix GLs? I've got several squads I have assembled with them, and I have no desire to go about ripping them off my models. Would a S4 bump to the Frag version be sufficient? Giving them "2 shots", doubling the weapon's fire rate? Just dropping the point cost?

 Stormonu wrote:
Yikes! I didn't realize orders had to be given to a specific unit - I mistakenly believed that it was just an area effect buff that affected all units within the command radius. That certainly changes things...

So what should be done to fix GLs? I've got several squads I have assembled with them, and I have no desire to go about ripping them off my models. Would a S4 bump to the Frag version be sufficient? Giving them "2 shots", doubling the weapon's fire rate? Just dropping the point cost?

Yeah the order system is more restrictive than people realize, 6 inch range, 1 unit per order. That unit can have 1 man or 50, doesn't matter.


As for grenade launchers, I really don't know without giving them some weird rules. I'm not even entirely sure I would take them if they were free, as not filling a unit's special weapon slot with something good hurts the unit just as much as if the grenade launcher cost quite a bit.

Maybe they'd be useful with a S4 frag and say an AP -2 Krak grenade, but I doubt it. Then you outshine flamers and you also still aren't a viable choice to plasma at 7pts.

What the grenade launcher desperately needs is a niche, and there's just no shooting niche left if you're going for a specific role. What it would be best for is if it had a variety of grenades like smoke or incendiary, but then you get all finicky and even then I'm not sure the weapon has much purpose. Perhaps a smoke round that helps designate for artillery or obscures a part of ground so units suffer a -1 to hit while firing through it, but that would imply IG have a smoke round capable of messing with the optics of Space Marines, Necrons, Eldar, etc.

That's the problem. I'd love to suggest a change but I honestly don't know what you would need to do in order to make it useful. You can see a similar discussion in the plasma meta thread. Realistically plasma is supposed to be a heavy infantry/light anti tank weapon but with the way 8th works, being good at that capacity pretty much means you're good at killing everything. Therefore the Krak round doesn't have much purpose when plasma is hardly any more points. The frag grenade has no purpose because you have lasguns all over your army and you shouldn't be struggling for S3 at all. Why on earth you would sacrifice your special weapons for S3 when all your units carry lasguns to begin with makes no sense.

The best bet would be to make it cheaper I guess. Make it say a point or two, then it has a niche as a dirt cheap special weapon that isn't a sniper rifle. Even then, I'm not sure why I would take it over say a mortar or even a barebones squad, but it's something.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Did I miss something, and Command Tanks became top-tier?

They became top tier when russes got the ability to shoot twice. Can't be certain. But I think that was a big factor...you know...shooting twice?

Okay, here we go:
Leman Russ Battle Tank, Stock Config
2d6 Shots, BS4+, S8, AP2, D1d3.
T8, Sv3+, W12
[Heavy Bolter]

vs

Manticore
2d6 Shots, BS4+, S10, AP2, D1d3, Indirect Fire
T7, Sv3+, W11
[Heavy Bolter]

The fact that the Leman Russ Tank costs more than the Manticore is something I find absurd. The Manticore is 20 points less, has +2 STR, meaning it can far more reliably damage real vehicles, and has Indirect Fire.

Hell, compare with the Predator Tank:
[Leman Russ has 2x Multimeltas, Battle Cannon, and Lascannon; Predator has 4x Lascannon]



With the buff, the Leman Russ breaks even with the Predator Tank in damage output and exceeds against light tanks. However, the Predator has longer range, since Multimeltas on a Leman Russ only reach 24", which is pretty damn bad, and a good reason enough I think to not run MM sponsons at all. The Leman Russ has the advantage of 1 point of T, which to it's credit, is worth something against all the plasmaguns.

Command Tanks cost 45 points more than the offered Leman Russ, which is already 15 points more than the Predator, really just for the +1 BS. Tank Orders might as well not be a thing, since it requires you to take both a Command Tank and an ordinary tank in a pair, when you could be bringing Catachan Manticores and babysitting it with Gunner Sergeant Harker. Or, for the Predator comparison, a Captain and Lieutenant, who would together still be less and be a far better buff provider, considering they give to-hits and to-wound re-rolls and are untargetable and can buff more Predators than a TC can buff Russes.


I cannot honestly call any Leman Russ, save perhaps the Punisher, "Top Tier". They're now "Solidly Average" up from "Irredeemably Bad". Tank Commanders though, really only offer the novelty of being a Tank in a HQ slot for "fluff" purposes, since they're actually more vulnerable than a much cheaper and more efficient Company Commander.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
FRF-SRF definitely outshines the other orders. I don't really think this is a problem.


However, compared to Divine Guidance, First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! only works on basic weapons instead of all weapons, but is performed after moving and can be bought at a rate of 2 for 30 instead of a 50% chance of one for 40.

Notably, it turns Lasguns into (IG) Boltguns.

Its hands down better than the other orders. That's okay though?

Uhh, yes? Because, really, are you ever, ever, ever going to plan to use Fix Bayonets!? I mean, honestly, I don't see how it's actually possible for the orders to all be equal, since any order that affects shooting is inherently always going to be better than one that affects melee. It's also balanced by the fact that it only works on Lasguns, and the shooting-enhancing orders for Heavy/Special weapons are much less powerful.


And really, an IG guy with a Boltgun isn't a problem remotely, unless you're paying 30 points to buff 100 of them.




There are plenty of things that are legitimate targets of complaint: Psykers, Stormtroopers, Shadowswords, Manticores, a selection of random Forgeworld things, etc. but I find it incredibly hard to believe that Leman Russ Tanks or IG Infantry Squads under FRF-SRF are a problem in any fashion.

MrMoustaffa wrote:


As for grenade launchers, I really don't know without giving them some weird rules. I'm not even entirely sure I would take them if they were free, as not filling a unit's special weapon slot with something good hurts the unit just as much as if the grenade launcher cost quite a bit.

Maybe they'd be useful with a S4 frag and say an AP -2 Krak grenade, but I doubt it. Then you outshine flamers and you also still aren't a viable choice to plasma at 7pts.

What the grenade launcher desperately needs is a niche, and there's just no shooting niche left if you're going for a specific role. What it would be best for is if it had a variety of grenades like smoke or incendiary, but then you get all finicky and even then I'm not sure the weapon has much purpose. Perhaps a smoke round that helps designate for artillery or obscures a part of ground so units suffer a -1 to hit while firing through it, but that would imply IG have a smoke round capable of messing with the optics of Space Marines, Necrons, Eldar, etc.

That's the problem. I'd love to suggest a change but I honestly don't know what you would need to do in order to make it useful. You can see a similar discussion in the plasma meta thread. Realistically plasma is supposed to be a heavy infantry/light anti tank weapon but with the way 8th works, being good at that capacity pretty much means you're good at killing everything. Therefore the Krak round doesn't have much purpose when plasma is hardly any more points. The frag grenade has no purpose because you have lasguns all over your army and you shouldn't be struggling for S3 at all. Why on earth you would sacrifice your special weapons for S3 when all your units carry lasguns to begin with makes no sense.

The best bet would be to make it cheaper I guess. Make it say a point or two, then it has a niche as a dirt cheap special weapon that isn't a sniper rifle. Even then, I'm not sure why I would take it over say a mortar or even a barebones squad, but it's something.

Plasma probably needs to cost more and Gets Hot as a matter of course - not just on overcharge.

Grenade launcher probably needs S4 with a better blast of some kind - not 2d6 better, but probably 2d3 if the system can bear it. IDHMBWM but the Krak grenade may need a slight buff; I may have commented on this in another thread but I think both the Grenade Launcher options quickly step on the Missile Launcher's toes, as well. That's another weapon evidently not quite worth its points...

M.

 Infantryman wrote:

Plasma probably needs to cost more and Gets Hot as a matter of course - not just on overcharge.

NOPE!

We have two different prices of Plasma Guns in our book. 7 points for BS4+ models(read: Infantry Squads) and a higher cost for BS3+(Veterans, Command Squads, and Scions). The reason we've seen price drops is because of the existence of the Overcharge profile--it's less powerful but stable.

Grenade launcher probably needs S4 with a better blast of some kind - not 2d6 better, but probably 2d3 if the system can bear it. IDHMBWM but the Krak grenade may need a slight buff; I may have commented on this in another thread but I think both the Grenade Launcher options quickly step on the Missile Launcher's toes, as well. That's another weapon evidently not quite worth its points...
M.

The Grenade Launcher is, quite bluntly, not worth being its own Special Weapon. The Elysian list had Auxiliary Grenade Launchers for Lasguns which was the Right Way to do things.

It will never compete with Plasma Guns nor will it ever really shine as its own thing. Best to scrap it as a Special Weapon or make it its own slot if we really want to let it shine.

I don't think FRFSRF is too good after the conscript changes, but T3 5+ models are probably too cheap in 8th. Especially in a list that already has many undercosted vehicles.

Or just make the GL Assault 2, although at that point it comes close to crowding out the flamer.

It's a generalist weapon in an army that can take enough specialized weapons to not need generalist weapons (see also, Missile Launchers), so there is never going to be huge demand for it. I think upping the shots would help, at least with cheap screening squads.

The other way is to increase the fiddliness, and give it additional rules, but I don't think anybody is excited about that.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think FRFSRF is too good after the conscript changes, but T3 5+ models are probably too cheap in 8th. Especially in a list that already has many undercosted vehicles.

T4 3+ models are too cheap in 8th. Shouldn't be able to claim Cover saves.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think FRFSRF is too good after the conscript changes, but T3 5+ models are probably too cheap in 8th. Especially in a list that already has many undercosted vehicles.

T4 3+ models are too cheap in 8th. Shouldn't be able to claim Cover saves.

Umm.. no.

 Polonius wrote:
Or just make the GL Assault 2, although at that point it comes close to crowding out the flamer.

It's a generalist weapon in an army that can take enough specialized weapons to not need generalist weapons (see also, Missile Launchers), so there is never going to be huge demand for it. I think upping the shots would help, at least with cheap screening squads.

The other way is to increase the fiddliness, and give it additional rules, but I don't think anybody is excited about that.

I had an interesting discussion last night with a friend where he tried to sell it to me as anti-horde...but I mean, it's a Lasgun that has Assault instead of Rapid Fire and can fire a Krak Grenade 24".

If I want anti-horde that bad, I'd take a Heavy Bolter.

There basically is no anti-horde, which is why IG is so good.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Plasma probably needs to cost more and Gets Hot as a matter of course - not just on overcharge.
NOPE!

YEP (I kid, somewhat, but I am in the camp of it should be unstable. Do your cants to the Machine Spirit and you should be fine.

 Kanluwen wrote:

We have two different prices of Plasma Guns in our book. 7 points for BS4+ models(read: Infantry Squads) and a higher cost for BS3+(Veterans, Command Squads, and Scions).

IDHMBWM but I only remember seeing it listed once, in that damned points table. Terrible design idea and I hate it

That said, I believe you as you've most certainly gotten to read the book more than I have as yet. And it is a good thing that GW at least somewhat recognizes that different weapons have different value in the hands of different troops.

(Something I liked about this one indie wargame I used to play called "Fast and Dirty" was that base points value was only your Troop Quality - things like weapons just acted as a multiplier)

Grenade launcher probably needs S4 with a better blast of some kind - not 2d6 better, but probably 2d3 if the system can bear it. IDHMBWM but the Krak grenade may need a slight buff; I may have commented on this in another thread but I think both the Grenade Launcher options quickly step on the Missile Launcher's toes, as well. That's another weapon evidently not quite worth its points...
M.

The Grenade Launcher is, quite bluntly, not worth being its own Special Weapon. The Elysian list had Auxiliary Grenade Launchers for Lasguns which was the Right Way to do things.

It will never compete with Plasma Guns nor will it ever really shine as its own thing. Best to scrap it as a Special Weapon or make it its own slot if we really want to let it shine.

 Infantryman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Plasma probably needs to cost more and Gets Hot as a matter of course - not just on overcharge.
NOPE!

YEP (I kid, somewhat, but I am in the camp of it should be unstable. Do your cants to the Machine Spirit and you should be fine.

But there's the rub. The "stable" profile is you following the cants to the Machine Spirit and the instructions to the letter. The "unstable" profile is you thinking you know better than the Techpriests.

 Kanluwen wrote:

We have two different prices of Plasma Guns in our book. 7 points for BS4+ models(read: Infantry Squads) and a higher cost for BS3+(Veterans, Command Squads, and Scions).

IDHMBWM but I only remember seeing it listed once, in that damned points table. Terrible design idea and I hate it

That said, I believe you as you've most certainly gotten to read the book more than I have as yet. And it is a good thing that GW at least somewhat recognizes that different weapons have different value in the hands of different troops.

(Something I liked about this one indie wargame I used to play called "Fast and Dirty" was that base points value was only your Troop Quality - things like weapons just acted as a multiplier)

In the Index it was only listed once.
In the Codex it has two listings, one right over the other. One is labeled as Ballistic Skill 4+ the other is just "other".

The only reason it was done was to shut up the whiners about the Scions.

Grenade launcher probably needs S4 with a better blast of some kind - not 2d6 better, but probably 2d3 if the system can bear it. IDHMBWM but the Krak grenade may need a slight buff; I may have commented on this in another thread but I think both the Grenade Launcher options quickly step on the Missile Launcher's toes, as well. That's another weapon evidently not quite worth its points...
M.

The Grenade Launcher is, quite bluntly, not worth being its own Special Weapon. The Elysian list had Auxiliary Grenade Launchers for Lasguns which was the Right Way to do things.

It will never compete with Plasma Guns nor will it ever really shine as its own thing. Best to scrap it as a Special Weapon or make it its own slot if we really want to let it shine.

I can't speak for the Auxillary ones - is that still a thing?

I dunno about scrapping it - I like that it is a thing, but it really is neither fish nor fowl and isn't all that flexible. In addition to a S boost, what if it got "ignores Cover" or "fires out of LOS"? Actually ignoring cover (maybe completely, maybe on a 5+ or 6+ or what have you) would be at least passable in terms of believably, I think.

Idle speculation on my part, though.

M.

Auxiliary isn't a thing anymore, sadly.
It is a thing for the Primaris Intercessors though.

I really would just scrap it at this juncture, at least as a Special Weapon. The Cadian kit is due for a refreshed/reworked sprue at this point and I would love to see the standalone Grenade Launcher either removed or given its own slot instead of taking a Special Weapon slot.

Something like this for a squad:
-1 Guardsman can take a Vox-Caster
-1 Guardsman can take a Special Weapon
-2 Guardsmen can form a Heavy Weapon Team
-1 Guardsman can take a Grenade Launcher or Flamethrower

IDK. That'd reduce special weapon choices down to three, which as a sisters player (who knows a thing or two about having only three weapons to select from) feels a little empty compared to five.

 Melissia wrote:
IDK. That'd reduce special weapon choices down to three, which as a sisters player feels a little empty compared to five.

Not if Heavy Stubbers or Heavy Lasguns(read: a Hotshot Volley Gun equivalent of a Lasgun) are added to the Special Weapon list.

That's fair, I suppose.

You guys should take a look at the winner of warzone atlanta.

No surprise to me it's a gaurd list featuring a brigade with 3 company commanders (exactly what I said can and should be done to make infantry OP) - 6 infantry squads- and wow 3 vetrens squads all with las cannons. 0 units of conscripts. OFC the obligatory 8 manticores as well.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You guys should take a look at the winner of warzone atlanta.

No surprise to me it's a gaurd list featuring a brigade with 3 company commanders (exactly what I said can and should be done to make infantry OP) - 6 infantry squads- and wow 3 vetrens squads all with las cannons. 0 units of conscripts. OFC the obligatory 8 manticores as well.

Rather than talking about it, why not post it?

What were the Regimental Traits used? What were the points values used?