Is FRFSRF Too Good?

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**Xenomancers**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Did I miss something, and Command Tanks became top-tier?

They became top tier when russes got the ability to shoot twice. Can't be certain. But I think that was a big factor...you know...shooting twice?

Okay, here we go:
Leman Russ Battle Tank, Stock Config
2d6 Shots, BS4+, S8, AP2, D1d3.
T8, Sv3+, W12
[Heavy Bolter]

vs

Manticore
2d6 Shots, BS4+, S10, AP2, D1d3, Indirect Fire
T7, Sv3+, W11
[Heavy Bolter]

The fact that the Leman Russ Tank costs more than the Manticore is something I find absurd. The Manticore is 20 points less, has +2 STR, meaning it can far more reliably damage real vehicles, and has Indirect Fire.

Hell, compare with the Predator Tank:
[Leman Russ has 2x Multimeltas, Battle Cannon, and Lascannon; Predator has 4x Lascannon]

With the buff, the Leman Russ breaks even with the Predator Tank in damage output and exceeds against light tanks. However, the Predator has longer range, since Multimeltas on a Leman Russ only reach 24", which is pretty damn bad, and a good reason enough I think to not run MM sponsons at all. The Leman Russ has the advantage of 1 point of T, which to it's credit, is worth something against all the plasmaguns.

Command Tanks cost 45 points more than the offered Leman Russ, which is already 15 points more than the Predator, really just for the +1 BS. Tank Orders might as well not be a thing, since it requires you to take both a Command Tank and an ordinary tank in a pair, when you could be bringing Catachan Manticores and babysitting it with Gunner Sergeant Harker. Or, for the Predator comparison, a Captain and Lieutenant, who would together still be less and be a far better buff provider, considering they give to-hits and to-wound re-rolls and are untargetable and can buff more Predators than a TC can buff Russes.

I cannot honestly call any Leman Russ, save perhaps the Punisher, "Top Tier". They're now "Solidly Average" up from "Irredeemably Bad". Tank Commanders though, really only offer the novelty of being a Tank in a HQ slot for "fluff" purposes, since they're actually more vulnerable than a much cheaper and more efficient Company Commander.

Xenomancers wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
FRF-SRF definitely outshines the other orders. I don't really think this is a problem.

However, compared to Divine Guidance, First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! only works on basic weapons instead of all weapons, but is performed after moving and can be bought at a rate of 2 for 30 instead of a 50% chance of one for 40.

Notably, it turns Lasguns into (IG) Boltguns.

Its hands down better than the other orders. That's okay though?

Uhh, yes? Because, really, are you ever, ever, ever going to plan to use Fix Bayonets!? I mean, honestly, I don't see how it's actually possible for the orders to all be equal, since any order that affects shooting is inherently always going to be better than one that affects melee. It's also balanced by the fact that it only works on Lasguns, and the shooting-enhancing orders for Heavy/Special weapons are much less powerful.

And really, an IG guy with a Boltgun isn't a problem remotely, unless you're paying 30 points to buff 100 of them.

There are plenty of things that are legitimate targets of complaint: Psykers, Stormtroopers, Shadowswords, Manticores, a selection of random Forgeworld things, etc. but I find it incredibly hard to believe that Leman Russ Tanks or IG Infantry Squads under FRF-SRF are a problem in any fashion.

Manticore has always been problem #1 on the block. It makes even OP things seem tame.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
You guys should take a look at the winner of warzone atlanta.

No surprise to me it's a gaurd list featuring a brigade with 3 company commanders (exactly what I said can and should be done to make infantry OP) - 6 infantry squads- and wow 3 vetrens squads all with las cannons. 0 units of conscripts. OFC the obligatory 8 manticores as well.

Rather than talking about it, why not post it?

What were the Regimental Traits used? What were the points values used?

\
He used Voystroyan. Can I post a link to redit? Is that allowed?

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
You guys should take a look at the winner of warzone atlanta.

No surprise to me it's a gaurd list featuring a brigade with 3 company commanders (exactly what I said can and should be done to make infantry OP) - 6 infantry squads- and wow 3 vetrens squads all with las cannons. 0 units of conscripts. OFC the obligatory 8 manticores as well.

"Oh no, an army with no Death Stars, smite-spam gimmicks, or easily exploitable rules loopholes won a tournament! NERF THEM!"

I propose, Xenomancers, that we make other armies just as competitive, instead of nerfing the only army that doesn't need shenanigans like Guilliman to win. Would you be alright with that?

**Xenomancers**

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7cl4zh/warzone_atlanta_2017_top_3_lists/\

The top 3 lists are at the top with the names of the players.

1st AM (pure gaurd no soup)
2nd Choas soup with all the big boys
3rd Malific lord spam and alpha legion berzerker rush

**Kanluwen**

Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7cl4zh/warzone_atlanta_2017_top_3_lists/\

The top 3 lists are at the top with the names of the players.

1st AM (pure gaurd no soup)
2nd Choas soup with all the big boys
3rd Malific lord spam and alpha legion berzerker rush

Not in a place to mess around with Google Drive atm, but there's something hinky.

You said it was a Brigade and Vostroyan. Someone in that thread said he used a Relic of Lost Cadia with the Manticores instead of a Master of Ordnance.
You can't do that. It requires a Cadian model.

Also if you're so hard-on to prove your conclusions, why do you just drop these comments instead of just posting the damn lists?

**daedalus**

Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7cl4zh/warzone_atlanta_2017_top_3_lists/\

Well, there ya go, guys. Told ya that people would be able to keep doing the same thing they do now even if conscripts were out of the picture.

**Martel732**

daedalus wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7cl4zh/warzone_atlanta_2017_top_3_lists/\

Well, there ya go, guys. Told ya that people would be able to keep doing the same thing they do now even if conscripts were out of the picture.

I don't think you were the only one. In fact, infantry squads have some advantages over them.

**daedalus**

Kanluwen wrote:

You said it was a Brigade and Vostroyan. Someone in that thread said he used a Relic of Lost Cadia with the Manticores instead of a Master of Ordnance.
You can't do that. It requires a Cadian model.

He did.

Spoiler:

**Unit1126PLL**

So he had the following:
1 Vostroyan Brigade (1074 points) with stuff

1 DKoK Outrider detachment (353 points) with stuff (this was actually probably more crucial to his victory than anything else because it's his only good melee/countercharge unit)

1 Cadian spearhead (included Relic of Lost Cadia) with Manticores and a Primaris Psyker.

**Kanluwen**

Martel732 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7cl4zh/warzone_atlanta_2017_top_3_lists/\

Well, there ya go, guys. Told ya that people would be able to keep doing the same thing they do now even if conscripts were out of the picture.

I don't think you were the only one. In fact, infantry squads have some advantages over them.

Infantry Squads in a Vostroyan army are a totally different beast to the standard Infantry Squads.

You're talking about an extra 6" range on every weapon that is Heavy or Rapid Fire and has a starting range of 24".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

You said it was a Brigade and Vostroyan. Someone in that thread said he used a Relic of Lost Cadia with the Manticores instead of a Master of Ordnance.
You can't do that. It requires a Cadian model.

He did.

Spoiler:

SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL

Primaris Psykers can't be Cadian models.

They don't have <Regiment>.
They have:
Imperium, Astra Militarum, Astra Telepathica, and Scholastica Psykana for Faction Keywords.

**daedalus**

Huh. That is 100% correct. Looks like it's an invalid choice of relic.

**Unit1126PLL**

Aaaaand the winning list cheated.

Nice. Well we know guard are OP when you ignore the rules.

**Xenomancers**

Kanluwen wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7cl4zh/warzone_atlanta_2017_top_3_lists/\

The top 3 lists are at the top with the names of the players.

1st AM (pure gaurd no soup)
2nd Choas soup with all the big boys
3rd Malific lord spam and alpha legion berzerker rush

Not in a place to mess around with Google Drive atm, but there's something hinky.

You said it was a Brigade and Vostroyan. Someone in that thread said he used a Relic of Lost Cadia with the Manticores instead of a Master of Ordnance.
You can't do that. It requires a Cadian model.

Also if you're so hard-on to prove your conclusions, why do you just drop these comments instead of just posting the damn lists?

HQ: 90 Points – 6 PL’s
Company Commander – Kurov’s Aquilla – 30 – 2 PL
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL (Warlord – Grand Strategist)
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL
ELITE: 285 Points – 15 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
TROOP: 402 Points – 18 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
FAST ATTACK: 165 Points – 9 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 132 Points – 12 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL

OUTRIDER: Krieg – 353 Points – 24 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 80 – 3
Death Rider Commander (40) – Plasma Pistol (5) – 45 Points – 3 PL
ELITE: 204 – 6
Death Rider Command Squadron (68) – 68 Points – 6 PL
FAST ATTACK: 240 – 15
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL

He used a Cadian spearhead for his other 4 manticores. Pretty bold move going voystroyan over Catachan or Cadian too for his brigade. I guess he values the infantry buffs more than the tank buffs for manticores. I can see why though. 90 modles getting a 6" range increase. They never need to move to get in range and get 2 shots at 30" with FRFSRF.

**Vaktathi**

He also already took Kurov's Aquila in the first detachment, why does he have two relics in the army list (or is he just writing that and counting on spending CP on the Armoury)?

**Xenomancers**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Aaaaand the winning list cheated.

Nice. Well we know guard are OP when you ignore the rules.

Nah - his list is below - perfectly legal to add another detachment. That would have been my frist thought...he must have a cadian detachment.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
He also already took Kurov's Aquila in the first detachment, why does he have two relics in the army list (or is he just writing that and counting on spending CP on the Armoury)?

Hes got 14 CP - safe to say he spend the command points.

**daedalus**

Xenomancers wrote:

He used a Cadian spearhead for his other 4 manticores. Pretty bold move going voystroyan over Catachan or Cadian too for his brigade. I guess he values the infantry buffs more than the tank buffs for manticores. I can see why though. 90 modles getting a 6" range increase. They never need to move to get in range and get 2 shots at 30" with FRFSRF.

Kan pointed out that the RoLC is Cadian model only, and there's no way for a primaris psyker to be a "Cadian", so the relic choice is not valid. He also has too many relics unless it's just assumed he autobuys the stratagem too every round.

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Aaaaand the winning list cheated.

Nice. Well we know guard are OP when you ignore the rules.

Nah - his list is below - perfectly legal to add another detachment. That would have been my frist thought...he must have a cadian detachment.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
He also already took Kurov's Aquila in the first detachment, why does he have two relics in the army list (or is he just writing that and counting on spending CP on the Armoury)?

Hes got 14 CP - safe to say he spend the command points.

No, it's illegal because a Primaris Psyker cannot have the Cadian keyword as it lacks the <Regiment> Keyword. The Relic of Lost Cadia can only be given to a Cadian model.

**Xenomancers**

Kanluwen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7cl4zh/warzone_atlanta_2017_top_3_lists/\

Well, there ya go, guys. Told ya that people would be able to keep doing the same thing they do now even if conscripts were out of the picture.

I don't think you were the only one. In fact, infantry squads have some advantages over them.

Infantry Squads in a Vostroyan army are a totally different beast to the standard Infantry Squads.

You're talking about an extra 6" range on every weapon that is Heavy or Rapid Fire and has a starting range of 24".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

You said it was a Brigade and Vostroyan. Someone in that thread said he used a Relic of Lost Cadia with the Manticores instead of a Master of Ordnance.
You can't do that. It requires a Cadian model.

He did.

Spoiler:

SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL

Primaris Psykers can't be Cadian models.

They don't have <Regiment>.
They have:
Imperium, Astra Militarum, Astra Telepathica, and Scholastica Psykana for Faction Keywords.

LOL what does the relic even do I've never heard of it. You might have caught him cheating though - pretty hilarious something like this could get past the TO but you found it in 5 minutes. Is it like +1 to cast or something?

That is a godmode relic - but illegal on his psyker unless there was some kind of faq or errata that game them regiment keywords.

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7cl4zh/warzone_atlanta_2017_top_3_lists/\

Well, there ya go, guys. Told ya that people would be able to keep doing the same thing they do now even if conscripts were out of the picture.

I don't think you were the only one. In fact, infantry squads have some advantages over them.

Infantry Squads in a Vostroyan army are a totally different beast to the standard Infantry Squads.

You're talking about an extra 6" range on every weapon that is Heavy or Rapid Fire and has a starting range of 24".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

You said it was a Brigade and Vostroyan. Someone in that thread said he used a Relic of Lost Cadia with the Manticores instead of a Master of Ordnance.
You can't do that. It requires a Cadian model.

He did.

Spoiler:

SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL

Primaris Psykers can't be Cadian models.

They don't have <Regiment>.
They have:
Imperium, Astra Militarum, Astra Telepathica, and Scholastica Psykana for Faction Keywords.

LOL what does the relic even do I've never heard of it. You might have caught him cheating though - pretty hilarious something like this could get past the TO but you found it in 5 minutes. Is it like +1 to cast or something?

It gives the Manticores re-rolls To Hit and To Wound against Chaos units, and To-Hit and To-Wound rolls of 1 against everything else (if I remember correctly).

**Kanluwen**

Xenomancers wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7cl4zh/warzone_atlanta_2017_top_3_lists/\

Well, there ya go, guys. Told ya that people would be able to keep doing the same thing they do now even if conscripts were out of the picture.

I don't think you were the only one. In fact, infantry squads have some advantages over them.

Infantry Squads in a Vostroyan army are a totally different beast to the standard Infantry Squads.

You're talking about an extra 6" range on every weapon that is Heavy or Rapid Fire and has a starting range of 24".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

You said it was a Brigade and Vostroyan. Someone in that thread said he used a Relic of Lost Cadia with the Manticores instead of a Master of Ordnance.
You can't do that. It requires a Cadian model.

He did.

Spoiler:

SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL

Primaris Psykers can't be Cadian models.

They don't have <Regiment>.
They have:
Imperium, Astra Militarum, Astra Telepathica, and Scholastica Psykana for Faction Keywords.

LOL what does the relic even do I've never heard of it. You might have caught him cheating though - pretty hilarious something like this could get past the TO but you found it in 5 minutes. Is it like +1 to cast or something?

At the start of any turn, you reveal the relic. Until the end of that turn you can reroll Hit and Wound rolls of 1 for all Cadian units within 12" of the bearer. You can instead re-roll all failed Hit and Wound rolls for these units until the end of the turn if they are targeting a Chaos unit.

It's the Cadian special Relic and is kind of..."meh" except for things that are intended to be mobile or can't receive "Take Aim".

**Unit1126PLL**

Kanluwen wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7cl4zh/warzone_atlanta_2017_top_3_lists/\

Well, there ya go, guys. Told ya that people would be able to keep doing the same thing they do now even if conscripts were out of the picture.

I don't think you were the only one. In fact, infantry squads have some advantages over them.

Infantry Squads in a Vostroyan army are a totally different beast to the standard Infantry Squads.

You're talking about an extra 6" range on every weapon that is Heavy or Rapid Fire and has a starting range of 24".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

You said it was a Brigade and Vostroyan. Someone in that thread said he used a Relic of Lost Cadia with the Manticores instead of a Master of Ordnance.
You can't do that. It requires a Cadian model.

He did.

Spoiler:

SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL

Primaris Psykers can't be Cadian models.

They don't have <Regiment>.
They have:
Imperium, Astra Militarum, Astra Telepathica, and Scholastica Psykana for Faction Keywords.

LOL what does the relic even do I've never heard of it. You might have caught him cheating though - pretty hilarious something like this could get past the TO but you found it in 5 minutes. Is it like +1 to cast or something?

At the start of any turn, you reveal the relic. Until the end of that turn you can reroll Hit and Wound rolls of 1 for all Cadian units within 12" of the bearer. You can instead re-roll all failed Hit and Wound rolls for these units until the end of the turn if they are targeting a Chaos unit.

It's the Cadian special Relic and is kind of..."meh" except for things that are intended to be mobile or can't receive "Take Aim".

I think the issue with it is that it is intended to be One Use Only, but it isn't actually stated to be, and so it's essentially giving the Manticores re-roll 1s to wound (or re-roll everything against Chaos) for free.

It's quite the big deal, turn after turn, and the anti-chaos specialization was probably invaluable, given the other lists.

Too bad it was illegal.

**Xenomancers**

What does the strategem say in the gaurd codex that allows you to get additional relics?

**Kanluwen**

Xenomancers wrote:
What does the strategem say in the gaurd codex that allows you to get additional relics?

Same as it does in others.

Pay X/Y to add 1/2 additional Relics.

**Spinner**

I like how a Guard list winning a tournament means they're OP.

Guard should never win tournaments.

**Xenomancers**

Kanluwen wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
What does the strategem say in the gaurd codex that allows you to get additional relics?

Same as it does in others.

Pay X/Y to add 1/2 additional Relics.

I was just wondering if it had some funky wording to get around the regiment trait. Seems odd to me that no one figured it out that was playing against him. If I was choas and getting pounded by this relic - I would inquire about the relic a little bit you know?

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
What does the strategem say in the gaurd codex that allows you to get additional relics?

Same as it does in others.

Pay X/Y to add 1/2 additional Relics.

I was just wondering if it had some funky wording to get around the regiment trait. Seems odd to me that no one figured it out that was playing against him. If I was choas and getting pounded by this relic - I would inquire about the relic a little bit you know?

*shrug* I don't think there's a loophole there. I think it's just one of those rules that slipped through the cracks.

But it's super good against chaos - like, ridiculously good; it's a Guilliman aura - so it's worth mentioning that the only way he could get it in his list was cheat!

If I was the TO I'd've made him replace his Primaris Psyker with a regular Company Commander, but then he would've lost a whole ton of psychic utility.

**daedalus**

Spinner wrote:
I like how a Guard list winning a tournament means they're OP.

Guard should never win tournaments.

It's even funnier when you consider that it was a cheating (intentional or otherwise) list.

"Guard are OP. Look! They finally won a tournament without Imperial soup!

Oh.. it's an invalid list, to the favor of the guard player? Eh. Close enough. Still counts."

**Kanluwen**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
What does the strategem say in the gaurd codex that allows you to get additional relics?

Same as it does in others.

Pay X/Y to add 1/2 additional Relics.

I was just wondering if it had some funky wording to get around the regiment trait. Seems odd to me that no one figured it out that was playing against him. If I was choas and getting pounded by this relic - I would inquire about the relic a little bit you know?

*shrug* I don't think there's a loophole there. I think it's just one of those rules that slipped through the cracks.

But it's super good against chaos - like, ridiculously good; it's a Guilliman aura - so it's worth mentioning that the only way he could get it in his list was cheat!

If I was the TO I'd've made him replace his Primaris Psyker with a regular Company Commander, but then he would've lost a whole ton of psychic utility.

If I was the TO, I would have read the rules...
It's not a thing that "slipped through the cracks" I guarantee you. He probably had a justification ready("It's a Cadian Detachment, so he's a Cadian model!") if he got caught on it.

**momerathe**

I plan to field two full-size units of scions with hot-shots just to find out how OP FRFSRF really is. I hope to be pleasantly surprised

**Kanluwen**

momerathe wrote:
I plan to field two full-size units of scions with hot-shots just to find out how OP FRFSRF really is. I hope to be pleasantly surprised

Bring a Tempestor Prime rocking the Laurels of Command to potentially issue two Orders to the Scion units...

Drop those groups into Rapid Fire range, pop FRFSRF and Take Aim to allow for you to potentially get more shots out of the Hotshot Lasguns too.

**greatbigtree**

** To the OP **

When you crunch the numbers, on 18 Guardsmen with Lasguns [assuming a combined squad with no upgrades] you have the following odds to wound, against a T4, 3+ save model,

18 Shots

0 - 36% \
1 - 38% > 74% of attacks result in 0 or 1 wound.
2 - 19%
3+ - 7%

36 Shots

0 - 13%
1 - 27% \
2 - 28% > 74% of attacks result in 1-3 wounds, with they average just below 2 wounds
3 - 19% /
4+ - 13%

72 Shots

0 - 02%
1 - 07%
2 - 14% \
3 - 20% \
4 - 20% > 81% of attacks result in 2-6 wounds, 56% result in 3-5 wounds. Depending on your optimist vs
5 - 16% / pessimist, you could look at that as 77% inflict 3+ casualties, or that 79% inflict 5- casulalties.
6 - 11% / I'm a glass half-full, so I'd expect 3 or more wounds.

7+ 10%

In my opinion, shifting a short range shooting unit from expecting 2+ wounds most of the time, to 3+ wounds, most of the time, isn't a big deal. Alternatively, a 3 wound or less unit to a 5 wounds or less unit. In any case, FRF, SRF adds 1-2 MEQ casualties, assuming you can more-or-less max out the firepower, which isn't always the case. It's not like Guardsmen are made of ceremite, or anything.

It's not OP at all.