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If I had Blacksails's magic wand, I'd keep infantry where they are, but I'd totally be down for giving bolters ap -1. Probably need to give it to Tau also though. Hrm. Need to think about that one for a while.

Oh, but Kan gets his lasguns for sergeants, definitely. I'd never use it, but why not?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chris521 wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't be particularly bothered if bolters got AP-1 or something. Though, this would require a shift in all of the bolt based weapons to compensate.

Actually, it would be okay.

The Primaris bolt rifle has AP-1.

Which would then have to be pushed up to AP-2, and my Inferno Boltguns would have to be pushed up to AP-3... Sounds good to me!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chris521 wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't be particularly bothered if bolters got AP-1 or something. Though, this would require a shift in all of the bolt based weapons to compensate.

Actually, it would be okay.

The Primaris bolt rifle has AP-1.

That's already the gimmick of the Necron weapons though. It's kinda lazy for a fix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Infantry squads are fine, Tacticals with Bolters are the ones that suck. Not the body, is just the bolter.

FINALLY somebody understands. Once Bolt Weapons get a slight bump there'll be significantly less complaints.

Eh, 50pts infantry squads would be fine.

Then I expect Vox-Casters as standard and Sergeants to have Lasguns, Laspistols, and Frag Grenades.

Sure?

I don't care about the sergeant lasgun thing nearly as much as you, but I respect your dedication to the cause.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Infantry squads are fine, Tacticals with Bolters are the ones that suck. Not the body, is just the bolter.

FINALLY somebody understands. Once Bolt Weapons get a slight bump there'll be significantly less complaints.

Eh, 50pts infantry squads would be fine.

You'd rather Infantry squads get worse than Tactical Marines (Actually, Bolt Weapons in general) get better?

If we're going to get into a semi-serious discussion about my views on balance, I'd be hacking out so much of the game it would be barely recognizable. As a stopgap, I'd much rather remove all the special rule nonsense that has proliferated to nearly every basic infantry weapon, heavily restrict allies and superheavies from 'normal'/'standard' 40k games, and emphasize a smaller amount of models on the table at most common point levels.

Then, with a few point tweaks, bolters would be fine. They're simply suffering from a bad case of scale creep (and some power creep), which can be resolved by cutting a lot of the bs in the game.

In the meanwhile, its almost pointless to talk about balance when the game doesn't even know what it wants to be.

But 50pts for an infantry squad would be fine. And I'd also wave my magic wand to give Kan lasguns for sergeants. Maybe then Kan could rest well at night in a pile of sergeants modeled with rifles.

Bolt weapons in general have never been good so I don't think blaming scale creep is appropriate.

Gauss needs to be changed anyways since it currently doesn't do its job (destroying vehicles through quantity of shots rather than quality). Probably change it to something like "a 6+ to wound does an additional 2 damage".

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chris521 wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't be particularly bothered if bolters got AP-1 or something. Though, this would require a shift in all of the bolt based weapons to compensate.

Actually, it would be okay.

The Primaris bolt rifle has AP-1.

Which would then have to be pushed up to AP-2, and my Inferno Boltguns would have to be pushed up to AP-3... Sounds good to me!

So... AP-3 hotshots?

I could live with that...

I still believe most units in the game should have their WS and BS nerfed one step.

Ork Boyz should hit on +4/+6, Conscripts on +6/+6, Infantry +5/+5 and Veterans/Tempestus +4/+4, Necron Warriors +4/+4, SM Scouts +4/+4 (The SW ones should have +3/+3), Assault Marines +3/+4, with Blood Claws having +4/+4, Eldar Guardians should have +5/+5 (They where upgraded to +3/+3 without a reason from the +4/+4 they where before), basic SoB +5/+4, etc...

"Elite" Troops like Tacticals, Eldar Aspect Warriors, etc... could remain +3/+3, the same for other units like Nobzs, SoB Dominions, etc...

That way you have more difference in the game. When most troops hit on 3-4, you only have 2 for "elite" units, and you end with a Liutenaunt hitting in the same number as the Avatar of Kaine or the Swarmlord.

That could have also the benefit of making things less deadly, so no more tabling in turn 2.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chris521 wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't be particularly bothered if bolters got AP-1 or something. Though, this would require a shift in all of the bolt based weapons to compensate.

Actually, it would be okay.

The Primaris bolt rifle has AP-1.

Which would then have to be pushed up to AP-2, and my Inferno Boltguns would have to be pushed up to AP-3... Sounds good to me!

You wouldn't need to bump the rest up really. The reason why Boltguns don't have an AP is unknown at this point with some people making assertions that it is to sell you the Primaris kits(lol, that worked greeeeat); I personally think it's just they wanted them to be AP4 instead of AP5 and it slipped through or there was a plan of some kind of specialized rule intended that never materialized for standard Boltguns.

 Galas wrote:
I still believe most units in the game should have their WS and BS nerfed one step.

Ork Boyz should hit on +4/+4, Conscripts on +6/+6, Necron Warriors +4/+4, SM Scouts +4/+4 (The SW ones should have +3/+3) etc...

"Elite" Troops like Tacticals, Eldar Aspect Warriors, etc... could remain +3/+3.

That way you have more difference in the game. When most troops hit on 3-4, you only have 2 for "elite" units, and you end with a Liutenaunt hitting in the same number as the Avatar of Kaine or the Swarmlord.

That could have also the benefit of making things less deadly, so no more tabling in turn 2.

Wolf Scouts have the Veteran profile of having 2 attacks and 8 LD though right?

 Galas wrote:
I still believe most units in the game should have their WS and BS nerfed one step.

You have to make either a 6 autohit, or make it so that no negatives can ever stack on other negatives, or (my favorite) both.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I still believe most units in the game should have their WS and BS nerfed one step.

Ork Boyz should hit on +4/+4, Conscripts on +6/+6, Necron Warriors +4/+4, SM Scouts +4/+4 (The SW ones should have +3/+3) etc...

"Elite" Troops like Tacticals, Eldar Aspect Warriors, etc... could remain +3/+3.

That way you have more difference in the game. When most troops hit on 3-4, you only have 2 for "elite" units, and you end with a Liutenaunt hitting in the same number as the Avatar of Kaine or the Swarmlord.

That could have also the benefit of making things less deadly, so no more tabling in turn 2.

Wolf Scouts have the Veteran profile of having 2 attacks and 8 LD though right?

Yeah I always loved how Wolf Scouts are veterans in the fluff instead of the noobs of the army. They should have a Veteran profile (And a price accordingly, of course). So that way SW have the "best" scouts of Space Marines, as they should. Is a shame that for now they are mostly the same as other SM scouts when they are totally different per fluff.

 daedalus wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I still believe most units in the game should have their WS and BS nerfed one step.

You have to make either a 6 autohit, or make it so that no negatives can ever stack on other negatives, or (my favorite) both.

I have actually said in the Ork thread a week ago that a 6 should always hit. Is the same phylosophy that a 6 always wounding.
I like too that Negatives can't stack.

 Galas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I still believe most units in the game should have their WS and BS nerfed one step.

Ork Boyz should hit on +4/+4, Conscripts on +6/+6, Necron Warriors +4/+4, SM Scouts +4/+4 (The SW ones should have +3/+3) etc...

"Elite" Troops like Tacticals, Eldar Aspect Warriors, etc... could remain +3/+3.

That way you have more difference in the game. When most troops hit on 3-4, you only have 2 for "elite" units, and you end with a Liutenaunt hitting in the same number as the Avatar of Kaine or the Swarmlord.

That could have also the benefit of making things less deadly, so no more tabling in turn 2.

Wolf Scouts have the Veteran profile of having 2 attacks and 8 LD though right?

Yeah I always loved how Wolf Scouts are veterans in the fluff instead of the noobs of the army. They should have a Veteran profile (And a price accordingly, of course). So that way SW have the "best" scouts of Space Marines, as they should. Is a shame that for now they are mostly the same as other SM scouts when they are totally different per fluff.

 daedalus wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I still believe most units in the game should have their WS and BS nerfed one step.

You have to make either a 6 autohit, or make it so that no negatives can ever stack on other negatives, or (my favorite) both.

I have actually said in the Ork thread a week ago that a 6 should always hit. Is the same phylosophy that a 6 always wounding.
I like too that Negatives can't stack.

Well if they aren't Veteran profiles already that would be my first fix. After that with the fact they have special weapon access on top of all the other Scout gear, I think you're probably fine.

 Blacksails wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Infantry squads are fine, Tacticals with Bolters are the ones that suck. Not the body, is just the bolter.

FINALLY somebody understands. Once Bolt Weapons get a slight bump there'll be significantly less complaints.

Eh, 50pts infantry squads would be fine.

Then I expect Vox-Casters as standard and Sergeants to have Lasguns, Laspistols, and Frag Grenades.

Sure?

I don't care about the sergeant lasgun thing nearly as much as you, but I respect your dedication to the cause.

The point you're missing is that bumping an Infantry Squad up 10 points puts them even closer to the Conscript Squads in terms of points. More on that in a moment...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Infantry squads are fine, Tacticals with Bolters are the ones that suck. Not the body, is just the bolter.

FINALLY somebody understands. Once Bolt Weapons get a slight bump there'll be significantly less complaints.

Eh, 50pts infantry squads would be fine.

You'd rather Infantry squads get worse than Tactical Marines (Actually, Bolt Weapons in general) get better?

If we're going to get into a semi-serious discussion about my views on balance, I'd be hacking out so much of the game it would be barely recognizable. As a stopgap, I'd much rather remove all the special rule nonsense that has proliferated to nearly every basic infantry weapon, heavily restrict allies and superheavies from 'normal'/'standard' 40k games, and emphasize a smaller amount of models on the table at most common point levels.

Then, with a few point tweaks, bolters would be fine. They're simply suffering from a bad case of scale creep (and some power creep), which can be resolved by cutting a lot of the bs in the game.

In the meanwhile, its almost pointless to talk about balance when the game doesn't even know what it wants to be.

But 50pts for an infantry squad would be fine. And I'd also wave my magic wand to give Kan lasguns for sergeants. Maybe then Kan could rest well at night in a pile of sergeants modeled with rifles.

50 points for an Infantry Squad would require some significant tweaks to the Infantry Squad as a whole I personally feel. You might not agree but something like a -1 to Hit for Infantry and Veteran Squads when they're in cover would be a Big Deal for taking Infantry and Veteran Squads over Conscripts. Hell, maybe even something like Conscript Squads can't get +1 to their saves when in cover unless there's an Officer nearby?

 daedalus wrote:
If I had Blacksails's magic wand, I'd keep infantry where they are, but I'd totally be down for giving bolters ap -1. Probably need to give it to Tau also though. Hrm. Need to think about that one for a while.

Oh, but Kan gets his lasguns for sergeants, definitely. I'd never use it, but why not?

Bolters absolutely deserve some sort of armor pen considering in both the lore and in previous editions the whole point of bolters was that they ignored basic body armor and protection like flak armor. A -1 considering how AP works this edition would be a nice little buff and it helps pull them in line with heavy bolters a bit, so the regular bolter is just a slower firing and slightly less hard hitting weapon.

As is Bolters and Shootas are functionally identical when it comes to strength and AP which is really odd to see.

I mean hey, I'm not complaining that I get to have my armor saves in the open now that cover is so borked, but it does feel kind of cheap that I can stand in the open and go to toe to toe with space marines without losing my armor save.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
If I had Blacksails's magic wand, I'd keep infantry where they are, but I'd totally be down for giving bolters ap -1. Probably need to give it to Tau also though. Hrm. Need to think about that one for a while.

Oh, but Kan gets his lasguns for sergeants, definitely. I'd never use it, but why not?

Bolters absolutely deserve some sort of armor pen considering in both the lore and in previous editions the whole point of bolters was that they ignored basic body armor and protection like flak armor. A -1 considering how AP works this edition would be a nice little buff and it helps pull them in line with heavy bolters a bit, so the regular bolter is just a slower firing and slightly less hard hitting weapon.

As is Bolters and Shootas are functionally identical when it comes to strength and AP which is really odd to see.

I mean hey, I'm not complaining that I get to have my armor saves in the open now that cover is so borked, but it does feel kind of cheap that I can stand in the open and go to toe to toe with space marines without losing my armor save.

With a -1 IG don't lose their armour save, it becomes 6+. Orks and basic Tyranids lose it, but I believe that many, many ork troops should have a better save than 6+. Many deserve a 4+ or at least a 5+.

I hate to repeat myself, but at this point Space Marines could be fixed and become much more interesting if they mixed the Primaris Statline and weapons with the basic marines weapon choices. Intercessors sucks because they don't have special/heavy weapons but their Bolters are actually nice. Tacticals "suck" (They don't suck as a Heavy Weapon delivery squad, but they are boring as f*ck. Basically Tacticals are the "One Lasscanon and 4 dudes that could be changed by wound tokens like Fantasy" Squad) because their weapons don't do anything. Assault Marines suck because with 1A a piece they don't have enough numbers of attacks. And Reivers suck because they don't have weapons to put their number of attacks to work.
All of that is fixed mixing them both. But probably for that to happen we'll need to wait like 3-5 years.

 Galas wrote:
I still believe most units in the game should have their WS and BS nerfed one step.

Ork Boyz should hit on +4/+6, Conscripts on +6/+6, Infantry +5/+5 and Veterans/Tempestus +4/+4, Necron Warriors +4/+4, SM Scouts +4/+4 (The SW ones should have +3/+3), Assault Marines +3/+4, with Blood Claws having +4/+4, Eldar Guardians should have +5/+5 (They where upgraded to +3/+3 without a reason from the +4/+4 they where before), basic SoB +5/+4, etc...

"Elite" Troops like Tacticals, Eldar Aspect Warriors, etc... could remain +3/+3, the same for other units like Nobzs, SoB Dominions, etc...

That way you have more difference in the game. When most troops hit on 3-4, you only have 2 for "elite" units, and you end with a Liutenaunt hitting in the same number as the Avatar of Kaine or the Swarmlord.

That could have also the benefit of making things less deadly, so no more tabling in turn 2.

If I may, this is possibly the worst fix I've ever heard. First off, 4+ BS is frustrating enough. [Also, why should Sisters be 4+ while Tacticals stay 3+? We are definitely superior to Space Marine novices.] All this does is further value high volume of fire weapon systems over slow-firing, hard-hitting ones.


I think a far superior option would be to decrease the cost of toughness/increase the cost of firepower. I think a fairly chronic problem the game has is that defensive power is severely overvalued for a fair number of units.

MrMoustaffa wrote:

I mean hey, I'm not complaining that I get to have my armor saves in the open now that cover is so borked, but it does feel kind of cheap that I can stand in the open and go to toe to toe with space marines without losing my armor save.

What's wrong with cover? When I last played it was either 5+ or 6+ (IIRC), and you only got to use it if it was better than your armor save. This is something I thought was dumb. Currently, it just ads +1 to your Armor Save (how does that work with 2+ guys, again?), which seems fine to me.

Galas wrote:I still believe most units in the game should have their WS and BS nerfed one step.

I could get behind that, but there will be loads of people with no attention span who think this would cripple the game with "slow".

M.

Scouts should definitely have worse stats than Scions, too.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I still believe most units in the game should have their WS and BS nerfed one step.

Ork Boyz should hit on +4/+6, Conscripts on +6/+6, Infantry +5/+5 and Veterans/Tempestus +4/+4, Necron Warriors +4/+4, SM Scouts +4/+4 (The SW ones should have +3/+3), Assault Marines +3/+4, with Blood Claws having +4/+4, Eldar Guardians should have +5/+5 (They where upgraded to +3/+3 without a reason from the +4/+4 they where before), basic SoB +5/+4, etc...

"Elite" Troops like Tacticals, Eldar Aspect Warriors, etc... could remain +3/+3, the same for other units like Nobzs, SoB Dominions, etc...

That way you have more difference in the game. When most troops hit on 3-4, you only have 2 for "elite" units, and you end with a Liutenaunt hitting in the same number as the Avatar of Kaine or the Swarmlord.

That could have also the benefit of making things less deadly, so no more tabling in turn 2.

If I may, this is possibly the worst fix I've ever heard. First off, 4+ BS is frustrating enough. [Also, why should Sisters be 4+ while Tacticals stay 3+? We are definitely superior to Space Marine novices.] All this does is further value high volume of fire weapon systems over slow-firing, hard-hitting ones.


I think a far superior option would be to decrease the cost of toughness/increase the cost of firepower. I think a fairly chronic problem the game has is that defensive power is severely overvalued for a fair number of units.

I'm not gona arguee about the fix being good because I haven't put it enough mental reflexion (And right now is 6 am in Spain). I just wanted to point out that Tacticals aren't Space Marine Novices. Tactical Marines are actually the "peak", the last step in the evolution of the Space Marines before entering in Veteran territory.
The normal Codex evolution is:
Scout->Assault->Devastator->Tactical->Veteran

I'll make an argument for basic Sisters of Battle to be +4/+4.

And bobthehero, I don't believe Scions should be better than scouts. Being as good as them is properly, comparing that ones are super-duper soldiers with minimal training and others are normal humans with super-duper training.

But you have a point Katherine about +4, +5 and +6 being frustrating because you feel you aren't hitting anything. Your proposition sounds better. Making defensive stats cheaper and offensive ones more expensive.

 Galas wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I still believe most units in the game should have their WS and BS nerfed one step.

Ork Boyz should hit on +4/+6, Conscripts on +6/+6, Infantry +5/+5 and Veterans/Tempestus +4/+4, Necron Warriors +4/+4, SM Scouts +4/+4 (The SW ones should have +3/+3), Assault Marines +3/+4, with Blood Claws having +4/+4, Eldar Guardians should have +5/+5 (They where upgraded to +3/+3 without a reason from the +4/+4 they where before), basic SoB +5/+4, etc...

"Elite" Troops like Tacticals, Eldar Aspect Warriors, etc... could remain +3/+3, the same for other units like Nobzs, SoB Dominions, etc...

That way you have more difference in the game. When most troops hit on 3-4, you only have 2 for "elite" units, and you end with a Liutenaunt hitting in the same number as the Avatar of Kaine or the Swarmlord.

That could have also the benefit of making things less deadly, so no more tabling in turn 2.

If I may, this is possibly the worst fix I've ever heard. First off, 4+ BS is frustrating enough. [Also, why should Sisters be 4+ while Tacticals stay 3+? We are definitely superior to Space Marine novices.] All this does is further value high volume of fire weapon systems over slow-firing, hard-hitting ones.


I think a far superior option would be to decrease the cost of toughness/increase the cost of firepower. I think a fairly chronic problem the game has is that defensive power is severely overvalued for a fair number of units.

I'm not gona arguee about the fix being good because I haven't put it enough mental reflexion (And right now is 6 am in Spain). I just wanted to point out that Tacticals aren't Space Marine Novices. Tactical Marines are actually the "peak", the last step in the evolution of the Space Marines before entering in Veteran territory.
The normal Codex evolution is:
Scout->Assault->Devastator->Tactical->Veteran

I'll make an argument for basic Sisters of Battle to be +4/+4.

And bobthehero, I don't believe Scions should be better than scouts. Being as good as them is properly, comparing that ones are super-duper soldiers with minimal training and others are normal humans with super-duper training.

But you have a point Katherine about +4, +5 and +6 being frustrating because you feel you aren't hitting anything. Your proposition sounds better. Making defensive stats cheaper and offensive ones more expensive.

I was talking about Scouts as the "space marine novices". Also, I'm at least of the opinion that the training is more relevant that the genetic augmentation [some of which scouts are lacking anyway]. Besides that point, some of the accuracy of SM and SoB comes from the power armor set, which has stabilization systems and targeting cogitators to assist the user in aiming and shooting straighter. This is all besides the primary point, though, because reducing accuracy is a terrible idea.

Fundamentally, it sucks to continuously miss, especially with a lascannon or other single-shot weapon. It also doesn't actually address the problem, just make the game more frustrating. You think that Space Marines don't seem as elite as they should be [though, TBH, I think that aspect is fine, they seem plenty elite to me]. What you really need to do to address the "balance issue" is address the fact that Space Marines pay fairly heavily for a passive feature: toughness, that's fairly easy to negate by purchasing a 7-point Plasmagun, and doesn't really perform as advertised anyway. A better solution than adjusting BS would be to reduce the cost of Space Marines [and other power-armored troops] by a few points, 1-2 points across the board would go a long way.



Now, I don't actually think there's much of a problem anyway. Balance doesn't strike me as that off within the Space Marines. The biggest problem I see is that Scions are a thing, and Scions are essentially Space Marines +1, because they cost 4 points less, have deep strike naturally, and have superior basic arms and density of special weapons.

What the heck happened to this thread? I thought we were discussing FRFSRF?

Footage of the Praetorian Guard deploying FRFSRF

M.

That is funny.....how it has evolved.

If you do nerf WS and BS then all those negative mods are going bonkers. You would have to bring back 2nd ed rules where if you needed a 7+ that would require you to roll a 6 then a 4 or higher on a 2nd die. If you needed an 8+ you had to roll a 6 then a 5+ on a 2nd die etc. That gave everyone a chance to hit no matter what.

Speaking of lasguns and bolters... back in 2nd ed:

Autoguns were -0 1 shot
Lasguns were -1 1 shot
Boltguns were -1 1 shot
Storm bolders were -1 1 sustained fire shot (1 2 or 3 shots)
Shuriken Catapults were -2 1 sustained fire shot (1 2 or 3 shots)

All were 24" range What the hell happened to diversity of power not to mention the str output of these weapons. Most of these weapons stack up about the same currently in the right circumstances.....when they all used to be so different.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bolt weapons in general have never been good so I don't think blaming scale creep is appropriate.

They've never been bad either. They've just been the most common basic weapon with a decent profile. I didn't play earlier than 5th, but they worked in 5th for what they did (the same thing all basic infantry weapons did) and the issue that 6th and 7th had was the general uselessness of all basic weapons. Now, they suffer from both scale creep (that affects all basic infantry weapons) and power creep (every other basic weapon has some special rules or ability).

Giving bolters a -1AP or a Fury of the Legion special rule would bring them up to the rest of the basic weapons. Frankly, I'd much rather wipe all the special rules off all the other basic weapons and just hand bolter -1AP and call it a day.

As for infantry squads at 50pts, I see how that indirectly buffs conscripts by being a more viable troop choice, so a built in vox would be cool. I'd rather bring infantry squads more in line externally, and then further modify conscripts to make them a more niche, but still useful in certain builds (like buffing SitNW).

Ultimately, I find it harder to care about balance in this game when the whole thing has jumped the shark long ago. Hoping Necromunda is actually good.

 Blacksails wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bolt weapons in general have never been good so I don't think blaming scale creep is appropriate.

They've never been bad either. They've just been the most common basic weapon with a decent profile. I didn't play earlier than 5th, but they worked in 5th for what they did (the same thing all basic infantry weapons did) and the issue that 6th and 7th had was the general uselessness of all basic weapons. Now, they suffer from both scale creep (that affects all basic infantry weapons) and power creep (every other basic weapon has some special rules or ability).

Giving bolters a -1AP or a Fury of the Legion special rule would bring them up to the rest of the basic weapons. Frankly, I'd much rather wipe all the special rules off all the other basic weapons and just hand bolter -1AP and call it a day.

As for infantry squads at 50pts, I see how that indirectly buffs conscripts by being a more viable troop choice, so a built in vox would be cool. I'd rather bring infantry squads more in line externally, and then further modify conscripts to make them a more niche, but still useful in certain builds (like buffing SitNW).

Ultimately, I find it harder to care about balance in this game when the whole thing has jumped the shark long ago. Hoping Necromunda is actually good.

Well if you played earlier than 5th you'd understand. I can personally tell you that, in 4th edition, Bolters were super garbage. That was partly due to the Rapid Fire rules at the time, but they still didn't stand out to do anything. 5th edition made the any basic Rapid Fire weapon a little better, and then all hell broke loose so to speak.

To say they worked for what they did, even in 5th, is SUPER generous. Then you just wanting to get rid of special rules for all small arms (which only exists for Shuriken Weapons at the moment) is a bit over the top.

I played in 3e and 4e and do not recall bolters being garbage, let alone super garbage. They were S4AP5, which was painful to take fire from when I played Guard.

M.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


To say they worked for what they did, even in 5th, is SUPER generous. Then you just wanting to get rid of special rules for all small arms (which only exists for Shuriken Weapons at the moment) is a bit over the top.

They worked as well as nearly every other basic infantry weapon. Any problem the bolter had was experienced by most other basic weapons, with the main exceptions being Pulse Rifles with S5 (pen AV10, glance AV11) and Gauss (auto-glance on 6s).

I don't think removing all the special rules (shuriken, gauss) for basic weapons is over the top at all. As far as I'm concerned, the basic weapons should be basic. By removing the bonuses of other basic weapons, the underwhelming ones are buffed in comparison, and then you differentiate the weapons on S, AP, range, and type.

I think there's a lot of hyperbole about how terrible bolters are and it makes discussions about them difficult. If Shuriken and Gauss were toned down, and bolters had situational AP-1, they'd be on par with every other basic weapon or better. The issue still remains about the general uselessness of all those weapons compared to a handful of heavy and special weapons. Which is why I place a large portion of the blame on scale creep. If there were less models on the table, and those models were generally smaller, infantry fire would matter more.

Of course bolters are gonna look terrible when you're facing an army of giant stomping mechanical death knights.

No, it's called a feature or a strong point. Every army has them. IG has militaristic orders, tyranids have synapse and so on.

Besides, while this is a neat trick, you shouldn't rely too much to this order. Do you know how time consuming rolling all those dice is? And the returns are usually lesser than you would think.

But if you removed Gauss, Splinter, and Shuriken, you'd need to rebalance the stuff that has it. For over half of 6E, Shuriken didn't have the special rule - and anything that had it was garbage.

Yes, I'm an advocate for Guardsmen being 50 points a unit. For what it's worth.

 admironheart wrote:

Speaking of lasguns and bolters... back in 2nd ed:

Autoguns were -0 1 shot
Lasguns were -1 1 shot
Boltguns were -1 1 shot
Storm bolders were -1 1 sustained fire shot (1 2 or 3 shots)
Shuriken Catapults were -2 1 sustained fire shot (1 2 or 3 shots)

All were 24" range What the hell happened to diversity of power not to mention the str output of these weapons. Most of these weapons stack up about the same currently in the right circumstances.....when they all used to be so different.

Also important in 2nd: Space Marines were the only ones who had Rapid Fire. If they stood still they could fire their Bolters and Storm Bolters twice.

And it was cool that all the weapons were different. Buuut imo it got lost in the fusilade of Plasma Missiles, Assault Cannons and Death Spinners.