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 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
And I am concerned for the future of the Imperium.

The final entry in the "Third Tyrannic War" on page 31 of the new Tyranid Codex says that Hive Fleet Leviathan is headed for Terra, and Gorillaman (Ultramarines Primarch) is sending dozens of Primaris Chapters to the front lines. But I fear that this tactic will be completely useless.

My question is, what do you think would happen if the Tyranids were to reach Holy Terra? Would Gorillaman destroy the Tyranid race, or would Terra be consumed by the Tyranids, marking the death of the Imperium?

This isnt new fluff. In previous editions the hive mind had noticed the astronomican coming from Terra and was sending Leviathan to investigate. There is no evidence that the Tyranids know the signifigance of terra or have any idea how well defended it is, or any ability to take it.

As to your question the hive fleet as it is now would probably get wrecked by the sol systems defences. It's the single most heavily guarded system in the universe, including Titan (GK homeworld) Mars (Admech homeworld) and of course Terra. It's defences are made up off fleets, a full chapter (Imperial fists), the entire officio assasinorum, the legio Custodes, the titan legions of mars, the GK, the sol fleet, the Inquisition headquarters military and the fleets and army of nearby systems. As it is now I don't fancy Leviathans chances. If leviathan was to devour everything on it's way from where it is now to Terra then it stands a pretty good chance of wiping out humanity methinks, which is exactly what Guilliman is probably trying to prevent.

It's beyond that. Terra has a fleet comperable to a segmentum. Mars has the ring of iron, which is basically a 20,000 mile long space station that is armed to the teeth. Any attempt to move into Terra, particularly at 'nid speed(slow) would give the IoM time to muster reinforcements.(the shadows of the warp isnt going to be enough to overcome the astronomican)

A single hive fleet, even eating some stuff on it's way to terra is not going to stand a chance. Tyranids would need a longer war of attrition to defeat humanity.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Also how fast do the Hive Fleets travel? Is it like Star Trek warp speed? Or is it slower than, say, Warp 6? Or what?

IIRC, Tyranid travel involves some weird gravity bending using the psychic call of a GSC as an anchor point. they do however have to decelerate before they get there which, again IIRC, delays the fleet arrival by a month or two than if they could stop on the penny.

Tristanleo wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Also how fast do the Hive Fleets travel? Is it like Star Trek warp speed? Or is it slower than, say, Warp 6? Or what?

IIRC, Tyranid travel involves some weird gravity bending using the psychic call of a GSC as an anchor point. they do however have to decelerate before they get there which, again IIRC, delays the fleet arrival by a month or two than if they could stop on the penny.

It's slow. But it is faster if traveling over a great distance as there are certain fixed times to accelerate and decelerate.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

No, the hive mind is not a warp entity. The shadow is a side effect of what the nids do, not directly what they are doing.

Where in the fluff is that stated? I've always heard the Tyranids were warp based in their psychic and synaptic powers.

As was stated, the powers of the hive mind are just a focused will of the hive mind and not warped based at all. Back in 5th(Maybe?) tyranids could not suffer from perils of the warp when manifesting powers because their powers had nothing to do with it.

Also, the shadow in the warp disrupts the warp and causes weaker deamons to dematerialize and even greater ones to weaken.


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Tristanleo wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Also how fast do the Hive Fleets travel? Is it like Star Trek warp speed? Or is it slower than, say, Warp 6? Or what?

IIRC, Tyranid travel involves some weird gravity bending using the psychic call of a GSC as an anchor point. they do however have to decelerate before they get there which, again IIRC, delays the fleet arrival by a month or two than if they could stop on the penny.

Yeah, but that old fluff also says that when they do that and anchor onto a point of gravity to do their FTL the result causes all kinds of natural disasters on the anchored planet. Massive earthquakes, tidal waves, horrendous storms. The world itself turns agaisnt it's inhabitants. Then the shadow in the warp falls accross the world spreading dispair and driving latent psychic mad. Then the sky darkens and the hive ships arrive. The nids showing up has signs weeks before their arrival. Holy Terra is a crap place to be if the nids anchor to it. Which they would. Since it's the beacon in our system.

 Overread wrote:
As all Tyranid fluff is written from the viewpoint of studies done on them after their invasion there's basically nothing but guesswork and theories as regard to their activities prior to the invasion of the Galaxy. They might have eaten billions of galaxies; might have vast swarms out there in the cold void; they might take billions of years to cover the distance between or could take decades with some strange travel methods.

It's not even fixed that Norn Queens and hive-ships are the upper limit of the swarm. The Tyranids could just be a tiny exploratory tendril of a vast megafleet the like of which no mane could imagine.

That's one of the great things about Tyranids - almost everything is a mystery!

Considering the universe is 13 billion years old and galaxies didn't exist for a decent chunk of that, I would say Tyranids can't reasonably be taking billions of years to travel between them. Tens of millions is probably the reasonable max assuming they have eaten multiple galaxies before.

5th edition strikes again. That's the same edition that haves us the Tyranids no warp FTL via Narvhal. Not my favorite shift in fluff.

Now there is canonically an easily-created FTL that doesn't involve the warp or a eons of Necron development? Hope some Inquisitor sees the value in that and gets some good readings on Narvhal biology.

It's okay - the primaris marines will save us!

 Exergy wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
And I am concerned for the future of the Imperium.

The final entry in the "Third Tyrannic War" on page 31 of the new Tyranid Codex says that Hive Fleet Leviathan is headed for Terra, and Gorillaman (Ultramarines Primarch) is sending dozens of Primaris Chapters to the front lines. But I fear that this tactic will be completely useless.

My question is, what do you think would happen if the Tyranids were to reach Holy Terra? Would Gorillaman destroy the Tyranid race, or would Terra be consumed by the Tyranids, marking the death of the Imperium?

This isnt new fluff. In previous editions the hive mind had noticed the astronomican coming from Terra and was sending Leviathan to investigate. There is no evidence that the Tyranids know the signifigance of terra or have any idea how well defended it is, or any ability to take it.

As to your question the hive fleet as it is now would probably get wrecked by the sol systems defences. It's the single most heavily guarded system in the universe, including Titan (GK homeworld) Mars (Admech homeworld) and of course Terra. It's defences are made up off fleets, a full chapter (Imperial fists), the entire officio assasinorum, the legio Custodes, the titan legions of mars, the GK, the sol fleet, the Inquisition headquarters military and the fleets and army of nearby systems. As it is now I don't fancy Leviathans chances. If leviathan was to devour everything on it's way from where it is now to Terra then it stands a pretty good chance of wiping out humanity methinks, which is exactly what Guilliman is probably trying to prevent.

It's beyond that. Terra has a fleet comperable to a segmentum. Mars has the ring of iron, which is basically a 20,000 mile long space station that is armed to the teeth. Any attempt to move into Terra, particularly at 'nid speed(slow) would give the IoM time to muster reinforcements.(the shadows of the warp isnt going to be enough to overcome the astronomican)

A single hive fleet, even eating some stuff on it's way to terra is not going to stand a chance. Tyranids would need a longer war of attrition to defeat humanity.

Terran system is defended by multiple rings of heavily fortified systems around Terra it self. Likely ringed by dozens of fortress worlds.
Every planet on way to Terra is defended. Mars is a fortress and home to if needed ancient and advanced weaponry.

Luna is a orbiting bastian bristling with more guns than sense and reason. Then Terra is fortified to the paranoia beyond paranoia. Defences beyond imagining and a fortress unmatched anywhere being the imperial palace.

The Mars arknmechanicum are most powerful battleships in fleet.

The grey knights defend the main fortress at Titian with there elite fleet and marines.

Attacking Terra is a meat grinder. You meat grind the outer systems then the inner system planet by planet.

After that the asteroid belt and minefields that ring the inner planets defence lines.

Terra is one planet that is no push over.

What is more distressing still is that one Nid fleet, Tiamet, is basically not attacking anything but building some sort of super structure on the planet of the same name. It seems to be messing up psykers and causing them to die when they get too close and amplifies the shadow in the warp.

Even weirder and worse they are creating genestealer cults like crazy and they are all trying to reach their promised world. Now I think its implied the geneseatlers are reaching the planet and not immediately dying.

My personal theory is they are attempting to build an anti-astronomicon to shut off all non-nid warp activity and they also are showing extreme adaptation to the IoM's reliance on psykers.

This means for the first time ever the Tyranids could be creating a safe space for their invasions to arrive as well. I imagine if the anti-astronomicon grows in intensity it could continue to block huge areas of the galaxy even worse.

Honestly with all this new Nid lord. I like it. It shows that the xenos are all still very threatening post 8th lore. Now I hope GW pulls a cool one and has Nids as the big bad this year in a campaign.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Also how fast do the Hive Fleets travel? Is it like Star Trek warp speed? Or is it slower than, say, Warp 6? Or what?

Exact speed unknown but even at it's best it's slower than regular warp and then once you get closer to planetary system you go sub-lightspeed so you could be for decades of travel to reach your destination.

Tyranid FTL is as fast as the plot demands, as Behemoth crossed a good chunk of the galaxy in a year, and Leviathan is all over the galaxy.

 Gamgee wrote:
What is more distressing still is that one Nid fleet, Tiamet, is basically not attacking anything but building some sort of super structure on the planet of the same name. It seems to be messing up psykers and causing them to die when they get too close and amplifies the shadow in the warp.

Even weirder and worse they are creating genestealer cults like crazy and they are all trying to reach their promised world. Now I think its implied the geneseatlers are reaching the planet and not immediately dying.

My personal theory is they are attempting to build an anti-astronomicon to shut off all non-nid warp activity and they also are showing extreme adaptation to the IoM's reliance on psykers.

This means for the first time ever the Tyranids could be creating a safe space for their invasions to arrive as well. I imagine if the anti-astronomicon grows in intensity it could continue to block huge areas of the galaxy even worse.

Honestly with all this new Nid lord. I like it. It shows that the xenos are all still very threatening post 8th lore. Now I hope GW pulls a cool one and has Nids as the big bad this year in a campaign.

Interesting thought. It could also be a nid cadian gate. The large potent shadow could be to shut down the warp storms/rifts and correct real space so they can feed without the food sources going all deamonic.

Just saying but ark mechanicum at full potential are basically necron tier ships, such as firing BLACKHOLES, and if they miss, they can just fire tachyon particles at the target to SEND THEM BACK IN TIME SO IT DOESN'T MISS, this however requires the magos in charge to basically plug themselves into the ship, but still.

That's so ridiculous....

 Lance845 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
What is more distressing still is that one Nid fleet, Tiamet, is basically not attacking anything but building some sort of super structure on the planet of the same name. It seems to be messing up psykers and causing them to die when they get too close and amplifies the shadow in the warp.

Even weirder and worse they are creating genestealer cults like crazy and they are all trying to reach their promised world. Now I think its implied the geneseatlers are reaching the planet and not immediately dying.

My personal theory is they are attempting to build an anti-astronomicon to shut off all non-nid warp activity and they also are showing extreme adaptation to the IoM's reliance on psykers.

This means for the first time ever the Tyranids could be creating a safe space for their invasions to arrive as well. I imagine if the anti-astronomicon grows in intensity it could continue to block huge areas of the galaxy even worse.

Honestly with all this new Nid lord. I like it. It shows that the xenos are all still very threatening post 8th lore. Now I hope GW pulls a cool one and has Nids as the big bad this year in a campaign.

Interesting thought. It could also be a nid cadian gate. The large potent shadow could be to shut down the warp storms/rifts and correct real space so they can feed without the food sources going all deamonic.

Why not both? I hope GW actually fleshes out Tiamet in the future since it sounds so interesting. The fleet and the planet/thing. I'm reminded a lot of star craft brood lords I think they were called in SC1 where they were worm guys controlling specific broods.

 Gamgee wrote:
Why not both? I hope GW actually fleshes out Tiamet in the future since it sounds so interesting. The fleet and the planet/thing. I'm reminded a lot of star craft brood lords I think they were called in SC1 where they were worm guys controlling specific broods.

Cerebrates!

Gamgee - the worm brains were Cerebrates, The Zerg hierarchy was:

Overmind - Cerebrates - Overlords - Queens - everything else.


Overmind and Cerebrates were basically intelligent thinking entities in their own right, whilst the rest were far less free thinking. That said everything in a lower tier couldn't refuse nor challenge orders from those in an upper tier. Cerebrates were almost akin to alternate personalities of the Overmind.

In the game Queens never really had their status reflected in gameplay; whilst Overlords were the supply raising unit for the Zerg.



The second game changed this all up and Queens basically replaced the Cerebrates but with far more independence, with Kerrigan replacing the Overmind, but with less overall reach of control. Essentially Queens were steadily approaching becoming their own Overminds in status.

 Overread wrote:
Gamgee - the worm brains were Cerebrates, The Zerg hierarchy was:

Overmind - Cerebrates - Overlords - Queens - everything else.


Overmind and Cerebrates were basically intelligent thinking entities in their own right, whilst the rest were far less free thinking. That said everything in a lower tier couldn't refuse nor challenge orders from those in an upper tier. Cerebrates were almost akin to alternate personalities of the Overmind.

In the game Queens never really had their status reflected in gameplay; whilst Overlords were the supply raising unit for the Zerg.



The second game changed this all up and Queens basically replaced the Cerebrates but with far more independence, with Kerrigan replacing the Overmind, but with less overall reach of control. Essentially Queens were steadily approaching becoming their own Overminds in status.

Cerebrates! Man old Star Craft is so much more interesting than new star craft.

Anyways back on topic. I would be incredibly hyped to see a next evolution in the Tyranids that took on more of a builder approach and actively worked with infested humans in a sort of "army" of converted alongside some conventional Tyranid style monsters. Think of the cool modeling possibilities. I think GW with the right time and preparation could have found it's "sub-faction" Nid army that will be incredibly interesting.

Would anyone else be interested in seeing something like that? And typically GW probably won't do it. *sigh*

I think Genestealer Cultists cover the "Infested humans" part that for example Zergs have in Starcraft. But yeah. When many people said things like "But what kind of subfactions can be made for Necrons or Orks?!" Well. Thats how you make new subfactions. You expand the universe.

 Galas wrote:
I think Genestealer Cultists cover the "Infested humans" part that for example Zergs have in Starcraft. But yeah. When many people said things like "But what kind of subfactions can be made for Necrons or Orks?!" Well. Thats how you make new subfactions. You expand the universe.

True they are the earlier form of it. But this would be a hybridised army and creating their own infested colonies on the planet. They would also have a newer generation of nids that are more adapted to fighting the increasing dangers and *cough* power creep *cough* of the universe. The new nid creatures would work a lot better with them and not try and eat them but be used as their mounts in some cases. Each one could be ruled over by a persona of the hive mind. I think it has enough uniqueness to it. The newer generation of infested humans would not actually have genestealers among them anymore.

What?

Sounds like you want Chaos Nids without the Dark Gods?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What?

Sounds like you want Chaos Nids without the Dark Gods?

Uh... how?

Infested humans instead of genestealers riding monstrous cavalry instead of one larger composite creature. Building infested things instead of spawning things. Just doesn't sound very Niddy.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Infested humans instead of genestealers riding monstrous cavalry instead of one larger composite creature. Building infested things instead of spawning things. Just doesn't sound very Niddy.

Well it does to me. The Nids are supposed to be the most adaptable race and I haven't seen them do much of it. Ultimately they all answer to the hivemind and it has final unquestionable say, but the overminds with quasi-personality are an attempt to generate more random and creative battlefield leaders than the simple structure it has now. I get what your saying they could look like chasos stuff, but I was thinking they would be more of a weird genetic blend than the corrupted look of chaos. So compare gene stealer generations to chaos corruption and they have a very distinct look.

Also the new nid creatures would supplement them but not replace their IoM hold over tech and look. It's also a chance to add a tad of personality to the Nids, but the bulk of their forces should be mindless and subservient.

Edit
The "buildings" would be suitably genestealer like. A mix of infested human ruins and typical tyranid planetary structure we see. They definitely still spawn and stuff but they are more advanced. I guess if you want to boil it down to a tldr for people who lack creativity it would be primaris Tyranids.

I'm personally ready for primaris warriors.

WS 2+, BS 3+, S & T 5, W4, A 4, LD 10, Sv 3+

Same options except can take the larger version of their guns.

Can only be in squads of 6.

32 points base (60% over normal warrior)

Full squad would run 276pts if armed with adrenal, toxin, boneswords and deathpitters.

Nids adapt to things and over come through adaption. thing is Primaris Marines? are NEW to the 'nids. as is a Primarch. it's possiable, even likely that the Primaris Marines and Gulliman will be able to turn the tide, for a short period of time.

Hive fleey behemoth did not get destroyed. That was retconned. It was merley a scout tendril or whatever. (Much better that way too) so you can say the Imperium would be doomed, but GW will have Cawl come up with some tyranid killing weapons or something before that happens

In the attack on Baal it also says the Nid bioships numbered in the hundreds of thousands.

Hundreds of thousands of bio-ships,in clusters so thick that the invasion fleet seemed to be one vast,many-limbed organism,surgedt owards Baal.

Now taking into account linguistics thats anywhere from 200,000 to 999,999 ships. Good luck blowing up nearly 1 million hive ships if the extreme end is taken.
Whats the generally accepted size of Battlefleet Solar?
I think Terra would be in for the fight of its life.

Battle fleet sizes vary dramatically. Depending on which source you use, fleets could either be in the hundreds or thousands on up to the millions or tens of millions. Most of the rule books tend toward the minimalist numbers while extracts from BL books tend to support higher numbers.

My personal head canon is that there are actually several orders of magnitude more ships than official sources state, just like with Space Marines. Less than one ship per ten planets is as ridiculous as one marine per member world in a galactic scale civilization.


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And those numbers include escorts, support ships, troop carriers, and possibly merchant ships. The minimalism is really bad in some books.


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I don't know if modern 40k fluff has fixed the issue. Reminds me of the Star Wars fleet size issue back in the day, when Timothy Zahn saw the fleet at Endor and assumed it was the bulk of the Star Wars Empire's fleet, and that a hundred obsolete cruisers could tip the balance of galactic power. A decade later, there was the Saxtonite backlash of fans who argued the fleet at Endor was a tiny percentage of ships so that the Empire could hide their movements among the greater fleet from rebel spies, as well as the Death star's mega fleet mass of material somehow being kept secret, therefore there must be millions and millions of star destroyers.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Infested humans instead of genestealers riding monstrous cavalry instead of one larger composite creature. Building infested things instead of spawning things. Just doesn't sound very Niddy.

Indeed.
I really don't see what it would add the universe, GSC 2.0 ? (seriously, guys mounting gaunts ? Like, what ?)
I don't think the Tyranids can be expanded really more. Tiamet hive-fleet is a good new direction, but is still a classical tyranid hive-fleet in its composition.
The Zoats were an interesting idea, but they are now destroyed, so...

Hasn't Holy Terra just being attacked by Khorne armies ? And the Imperium armies had difficulties to win, hadn't they ? I don't think Terra is so safe from the Tyranids, especially as Leviathan is so unstoppable.
You think the Astronomicon would be stronger than the Shadow ? I don't know, if the Hive-Fleet were on Terra itself, I think it would be blocked (big disaster for the wider Imperium).
Have we some infos on this ? Is the Shadow weaker and weaker as they come closer to Terra ?