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And I guess sharing some (very) common archetypal themes means they're exactly alike? How many fantasy or sci-fi setting can you name that don't feature an order of elite warriors who follow some incredibly powerful ruler to fight against the forces of evil? Yes, Stormcast were obviously influenced by the Space Marines. I don't think anyone can argue that. They are not, however, just fantasy Space Marines.

I don't like their helmets. The ones that the Paladins wear are cool, but the rest, not my cup of tea.

The rest of them is very cool. Giant armoured men and women mounting gryphon-giraffes, Dragons without wings and with the angelical theme, very Diablo or Darksriders.

Thats why all my Stormcast (I have a small force to be honest) have normal helmets.

 EnTyme wrote:
And I guess sharing some (very) common archetypal themes means they're exactly alike? How many fantasy or sci-fi setting can you name that don't feature an order of elite warriors who follow some incredibly powerful ruler to fight against the forces of evil? Yes, Stormcast were obviously influenced by the Space Marines. I don't think anyone can argue that. They are not, however, just fantasy Space Marines.

They really are. They're incredibly similar in looks, methods and background. They even get the same disproportionate support from GW.

In regards to the "drop podding" idea, that's only marginally true. They are supposed to be the saviors, the light in the dark, the heroes coming in the nigh of time.

So what's more appropriate than appearing out of thin air, with lightning bolts striking the enemy army, the clear light from the discharge shining on these golden, faceless giants come to save the retreating mortals and fending off the chaos, undead or savage enemies?

I think it is a good way of representing such a theme. Sure, it makes them feel a bit "dei ex machina", but is that a huge problem? I do like the idea. Not a fan of their gameplay and models, but I like the feeling of hope they embody.

Plus, they're heroes from the past reforged into perfect warriors and sent in battle to spare the lives of mortals. They're not Space Marines: they're Wraithguards.

They lack the zealotry of Space Marines. Sure, they might call the might of Sigmar, but... I don't think they are THAT involved in the religious/zealotry some Space Marines have.

Regarding the "God-king on a throne", well, yes. There's a God. Who is also a king. Because he's living among his people. And he has a throne. Because he is a king.

But he's not a decaying corpse kept alive via the sacrifice of countless psykers whose main purpose for keeping on living s serve as a glorified lighthouse.

Regarding "bolters" it's again a matter of aestethics: crossbows are often perceived as "non-good" weapons, because our Western perception associates them with mercenaries, and paesants, as well as the henchmen of villains. Really, go watch a coupleof fantasy movies. The good guys will often have longbows or javelins, the bad guys will almost always have crossbows.

Thus, equipping "good guys" with crossbows would be a bit weird, and thus the weird-shaped crossbows and the "bolt" names. Also, it ties in with the storm theme they have.

Their riding the storm also has some drawbacks as it's not always accurate where it sends them and it can be magically influenced to go off course (even by a human seer).

This may play into another reason why Sigmar is big on making them reforgable.

They're incredibly similar in looks, methods and background.

I'm not sure the "incredibly" is warranted.

They're similar as far as shoulder pads and elite soldiers go but their methods are far more relatable than Space marines "kill em all" and their background is brave people being whisked away towards the end of their life where as marines start their lives as killing machines at very young ages.

As for disproportionate support, though not untrue, I do wonder how much the Global campaign played into that. If what is said about it affecting releases is true then the huge focus on Order and the Vanguard/city Stormcast releases may have been unintentional and just as likely a release in later years after others were focused on.

GW does have everything ready to go up to 2021(as they announced in 2016) so they could have the releases done in different orders.

Stormcast Eternals are obviously trying to repeat the success of Space Marines. Calling them "Space Marines copy-cats" is don't sawing the wood because of the trees.

Space Marines were designed because in Fantasy, the Chaos Warriors in full plate armour where the most popular trope of all the setting. So they wanted to repeat the same formula in Warhammer40k (Rogue Trader).

I don't see anybody saying that Space Marines are the same as Chaos Warriors (Heck, even Chaos Space Marines are very different from Chaos Warriors). But they share many, many themes: Hulking men imbuid with power (Space Marines from science, Chaos Warriors from dark gods), that only live for war, and they are much bigger than normal men, etc...

Stormcast Eternal is the last part of the cicle. They are obviously trying to repeat the formula of Space Marines, just like Space Marines did in the past with Chaos Warriors. But that doesn't mean they aren't their own thing.

Thats why I always find a little funny the discussions "Stormcast are just Fantasy Space Marines!" "No, they are not!"
When both parts of the argument have half of the truth. They share many tropes with Space Marines, yes, but the devil is on the details.

What I find somewhat strange and not well thought out is their relationship with Sigmar. They have a living God, many of whom have actually met him in person and yet there are still pieces in the lore and books where something happens and they speak and act as if Sigmar is some kind of half - real, unknowable person like in the old World. I can't put a finger on a concrete detail right now, but I clearly remember a piece about the knight errants or whatever they were called - they're supposed to spend a night in meditation in their cell in Sigmaron (you can't get any closer to Sigmar) and at dawn a magical, mysterious sword appears that no one knows where it came from, but some whisper it may be a gift from Sigmar... C'mon, their god is right over there shooting lightning out of his arse and there is still this mystifying involved - this IMO is unneeded.

 AaronWilson wrote:
Humans are definately not pointless - play against a solid Free Peoples player / army.

You'll find out cannons, hellblasters and gunpowder are effective as ever at killing most things.

Unfortenately it is hard if not impossible to actually get cannons. They are OOP, like half of everything non-Stormcast.
I must say the Stormcast have grown on me though. In fact, I used to dislike them, but once I saw how nice they could look with a good colour scheme I got quite excited for them. The colour scheme in question is actually a lot like AegisGrimm's (which is also really nice) just with red instead of green on the shoulder and trim.

Eh, the "mysterious" part sure (who else would gift it) but the reverence and awe from a entity beyond any of them in power and understanding is pretty much in-line. Just because they know him doesn't mean it takes away the fact he can walk amongst the stars and do things beyond their dreams.

It's like the the Grail Pilgrims who devote themselves to a Grail knight. They do everything for him all the time but just the recognition of a saint who's so above them in status and abilities can make them pass out in amazement.


@Galas,

Spot on statement. It's just the paladin-from-evil paladin concept coming full circle.

Space marines are a mix of chaos knights with warrior priest fanaticism put in a sci-fi blender while Stormcasts are that concept while put in a mythology blender and heavier mixes of warrior priests and their concept of faithful paladins with baroque armor.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cc/6f/56/cc6f568dd7d48eb6589519901a277423.jpg

@Baron
Yeah, reverence s perfectly acceptable and expected, but here and there they've spoken like they have no other clue for Sigmar other than he's their deity and someone (the relictors for example) have tutored them into the "Stormcast creed". They follow the creed, believing in Sigmar and speak as a modern day religious man would speak about his god - they believe that there is one, they know their creed and act according to it, but they haven't seen him, don't know his plan, desires etc. Stormcast do though and it doesn't suit them very well.

I love the direction GW are taking them. They are starting to flesh out the world around them, and world doesn't trust them. They themselves are slowly losing their humanity, unable to keep hold of what made them human once. Sigmar himself doesn't seemingly care, but some Stormcast are starting to question this.

You also have this lingering narrative in the background that hints on some suspect activity, certain older Stormcast that have lost the grip on humanity have committed warcrimes in the name of purifying chaos.

Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

I like them quite a bit. Reading Plague Garden defiantly shows how different Stormcast can be with each other and their relationship with Sigmar.

Davor wrote:
Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

They are inspired by space marines but they are nothing alike going by the novels. As Nova said plague garden shows this.

The similarities to marines really wasn’t a problem for me, it had more to do with them getting all the love when several factors need it a lot more, ya dig?

 Jaxler wrote:
The similarities to marines really wasn’t a problem for me, it had more to do with them getting all the love when several factors need it a lot more, ya dig?

The problem is that if they didn't give them "all the love"(they had about the same amount of love as Khorne Bloodbound and any of the fully fleshed out new releases, barring the poor Fyreslayers) then the range would likely have been DOA.

Personally, and I've said this elsewhere, I felt like there could/should have been more variation. I would have liked to see some guys wearing mail or scale armor instead of full plate (the Vanguard would have been great for this) and with the Paladins having more armor or something to make them appear more 'Avatars of the Wrath of Sigmar' in a sense.

I do think the addition of the beasts like Gryph-Hounds and Aetherwings was a good touch though.

Stormcast Eternals are not marines 100%. They are though quite similar to them with chambers (also chambers having uniqe quirks), the ones to rescue humanity/the 8 realms, geneseed problems/reforging problems (read that they would expand on that). And of course beeing pushed by GW as the main faction with more love then the others.

But they are also human heroes chosen by Sigmar close to their deaths and after living atleast a somewhat long life while marines are brainwashed from the age of 5 and the live of an adeptus astartes is the only life a marine will know.

I hope though that they make Sigmar care for his Eternals since if he starts seeing them as disposable tools he will become to similar to the Emperor and with that make the Eternals=marines more true.

 EnTyme wrote:
And I guess sharing some (very) common archetypal themes means they're exactly alike? How many fantasy or sci-fi setting can you name that don't feature an order of elite warriors who follow some incredibly powerful ruler to fight against the forces of evil?

What, you mean like Warhammer Fantasy Battles?

I always considered it an intentional design feature rather than an oversight that WHFB lacked a race of super duper good guys. It's not a universe of good vs evil, it was humanity vs everything, some of which may be evil. It was one of (though certainly not the only) thing that made the world appealing to me.

They are not, however, just fantasy Space Marines.

Yeah, they're also much more 2 dimensional


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Green one wrote:
And of course beeing pushed by GW as the main faction...

This is probably one of the biggest similarities. Sure, there's underlying fluff differences, but they're big dudes in big armour that feel custom designed to appeal to nerdy teenage boys which GW plasters over anything to do with the game/universe.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
And I guess sharing some (very) common archetypal themes means they're exactly alike? How many fantasy or sci-fi setting can you name that don't feature an order of elite warriors who follow some incredibly powerful ruler to fight against the forces of evil?

What, you mean like Warhammer Fantasy Battles?

I always considered it an intentional design feature rather than an oversight that WHFB lacked a race of super duper good guys. It's not a universe of good vs evil, it was humanity vs everything, some of which may be evil. It was one of (though certainly not the only) thing that made the world appealing to me.

Phoenix guard. An elite force under the service a god that fight against the forces of evil.

Yeah, they're also much more 2 dimensional

No, they really aren't. Unless you can provide us an extensive analysis to prove your claims.

The thing I like about marines is the fall of them to Chaos. Stormcast being perfect is a bit zzzzzzzz, let's see some of them be corrupted, or mutated!

 AaronWilson wrote:
The thing I like about marines is the fall of them to Chaos. Stormcast being perfect is a bit zzzzzzzz, let's see some of them be corrupted, or mutated!

Not falling to chaos isn't perfection. Hell, perfection is something they are not at all, or else they wouldn't inflict friendly fire from being scared at startled. " FOR CHAOS!" is NOT a form of nuance. Adding different viewpoints and stances on key issues like: can people that's been in contact with chaos be trusted, and those stances being a cause of friction IS nuance.

All that plus that chaos Stormcast are literally just chaos knights.

More interesting would be a Deathcast.(which would also heavily deliver a Dark Souls flavor)

Phoenix guard. An elite force under the service a god that fight against the forces of evil.

And Grail knights. The Grail would kill any man with even an ounce of evil left in them and they're so pure their bones are immune to undeath (except for one rare circumstance). It's hard to get more goody-goody super warrior than that.

Certainly no more 2 dimensional than a Stormcast is despite both being empowered warriors with all their nobility and humanity intact.

Stormcasts actually even beat them in having more dimensions due to the threat of losing that humanity and having more pasts to draw from, like farmer or pit fighter, rather than another nobleman.

Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity? 

Those are weird takes on rescuing and giving a chance for vengeance.

I don't think it's even mentioned that he reforges them against their will?

. I would have liked to see some guys wearing mail or scale armor instead of full plate (the Vanguard would have been great for this)

Indeed, something like Storm Squires who would be elite human warriors trying to prove themselves and become reforged.

Some could be bigger than average men as Sigmar blessed them but still needs them to prove themselves and others could wield remarkable weapons of Sigmarite hidden by an aspect of Sigmar which can range from a sword driven deep within a floating mountain to a bow hidden within the mechanical body of a metal realm beast that goes between land and seas of mercury.

Oh my god, Stormcast that have lost all hope and become Hollow-Stormcasts of Nagash... that could be a little obvious but I'll buy in to them ASAP.

 AaronWilson wrote:
The thing I like about marines is the fall of them to Chaos. Stormcast being perfect is a bit zzzzzzzz, let's see some of them be corrupted, or mutated!

Here comes the problem with that though because it's that case with marines we have lost all focus on normal humans falling to chaos and rising to daemon princes.(there are cases of them in the lore) They make a big deal about humans falling to chaos and fighting against that but the narrative of 40k focuses on space marines falling to chaos. Also stormcast are not perfect at all they are actually quite flawed they are far more human that space marines actually and that's not counting the reforging effects, also sigmar does not reforge them against their will.(josh reynolds is writing a story with someone who says no in soul wars. He states it does not end out well for everyone) Sigmar has a big point on not interfering or pressing his will on people even on stormcast. Sigmar's problem as stated by Grungi is that he barely lowers himself to talk to the little people he expects people to rise to meet him so to speak and then he somewhat converses almost kinda like an equal of sorts.

Anyway back to my point on space marines here is a good example of my point.



On reddit someone asked that how come we don't get any human chaos followers for 40k. I told him because the narrative of chaos surround space marines falling to chaos we will never see anything like this in 40k. The stormcast have different nuances and issues they deal with and the fact there is disagreement among their number whether followers of chaos can actually be redeemed. A certain cockney stormcast who used to be a nurgle lord has a whole narrative arc surrounding this before he joined Gardus chamber everyone treated him almost like an outcast. Plus how fantasy is set up they can easily make stories about other factions which is what they are doing.

Still at they end of the day there reason why there is such a huge focus on space marines is because they are incredibly popular so I am in the minority.

The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

shinros wrote:

Davor wrote:
Why would Sigmar care? He kidnapped them and violated them against their will. Why would he care if they start slowly loosing their humanity?

Another thing to compare them to Space Marines sadly. While I am liking they are getting more character it's just becoming Sigmarines again.

Make them unique. Even if GW has to recton it, do it now before it's too late.

They are inspired by space marines but they are nothing alike going by the novels. As Nova said plague garden shows this.

Thank you for this. Sadly I didn't agree with how GW did their books that I haven't bought any so I didn't read them. As for Black Library books, while many people like them, the few I read I didn't like them much so haven't read any of their books for years now. So it seems I have missed out on some of the fluff and it's good to know they are becoming less Space Marine like now.

I was interested in maybe checking out Plague Garden after recommendations in this thread. It's listed as not even being released until next month.

Is t available elsewhere?

 privateer4hire wrote:
I was interested in maybe checking out Plague Garden after recommendations in this thread. It's listed as not even being released until next month.

Is t available elsewhere?

Blacklibrary and a certain internet's buttcrack we all know and love to avoid.

 shinros wrote:

On reddit someone asked that how come we don't get any human chaos followers for 40k. I told him because the narrative of chaos surround space marines falling to chaos we will never see anything like this in 40k. The stormcast have different nuances and issues they deal with and the fact there is disagreement among their number whether followers of chaos can actually be redeemed. A certain cockney stormcast who used to be a nurgle lord has a whole narrative arc surrounding this before he joined Gardus chamber everyone treated him almost like an outcast. Plus how fantasy is set up they can easily make stories about other factions which is what they are doing.

Still at they end of the day there reason why there is such a huge focus on space marines is because they are incredibly popular so I am in the minority.

You're aware that there is a whole army list of "human Chaos followers for 40k", yeah?

It's the "Renegades and Heretics" list from FW. There's also the "Tyrant's Legion" but I don't know if that got updated.