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 Kanluwen wrote:

 shinros wrote:

On reddit someone asked that how come we don't get any human chaos followers for 40k. I told him because the narrative of chaos surround space marines falling to chaos we will never see anything like this in 40k. The stormcast have different nuances and issues they deal with and the fact there is disagreement among their number whether followers of chaos can actually be redeemed. A certain cockney stormcast who used to be a nurgle lord has a whole narrative arc surrounding this before he joined Gardus chamber everyone treated him almost like an outcast. Plus how fantasy is set up they can easily make stories about other factions which is what they are doing.

Still at they end of the day there reason why there is such a huge focus on space marines is because they are incredibly popular so I am in the minority.

You're aware that there is a whole army list of "human Chaos followers for 40k", yeah?

It's the "Renegades and Heretics" list from FW. There's also the "Tyrant's Legion" but I don't know if that got updated.

Right so have they appeared in an credible form in the narrative for 40k apart from being cannon fodder for csm? That's my point they are not relevant. Hence my personal love for the black crusade roleplay game.

 shinros wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 shinros wrote:

On reddit someone asked that how come we don't get any human chaos followers for 40k. I told him because the narrative of chaos surround space marines falling to chaos we will never see anything like this in 40k. The stormcast have different nuances and issues they deal with and the fact there is disagreement among their number whether followers of chaos can actually be redeemed. A certain cockney stormcast who used to be a nurgle lord has a whole narrative arc surrounding this before he joined Gardus chamber everyone treated him almost like an outcast. Plus how fantasy is set up they can easily make stories about other factions which is what they are doing.

Still at they end of the day there reason why there is such a huge focus on space marines is because they are incredibly popular so I am in the minority.

You're aware that there is a whole army list of "human Chaos followers for 40k", yeah?

It's the "Renegades and Heretics" list from FW. There's also the "Tyrant's Legion" but I don't know if that got updated.

Right so have they appeared in an credible form in the narrative for 40k apart from being cannon fodder for csm? That's my point they are not relevant. Hence my personal love for the black crusade roleplay game.

Do the Blood Pact from Gaunt's Ghosts count?

 Mangod wrote:

 shinros wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 shinros wrote:

On reddit someone asked that how come we don't get any human chaos followers for 40k. I told him because the narrative of chaos surround space marines falling to chaos we will never see anything like this in 40k. The stormcast have different nuances and issues they deal with and the fact there is disagreement among their number whether followers of chaos can actually be redeemed. A certain cockney stormcast who used to be a nurgle lord has a whole narrative arc surrounding this before he joined Gardus chamber everyone treated him almost like an outcast. Plus how fantasy is set up they can easily make stories about other factions which is what they are doing.

Still at they end of the day there reason why there is such a huge focus on space marines is because they are incredibly popular so I am in the minority.

You're aware that there is a whole army list of "human Chaos followers for 40k", yeah?

It's the "Renegades and Heretics" list from FW. There's also the "Tyrant's Legion" but I don't know if that got updated.

Right so have they appeared in an credible form in the narrative for 40k apart from being cannon fodder for csm? That's my point they are not relevant. Hence my personal love for the black crusade roleplay game.

Do the Blood Pact from Gaunt's Ghosts count?

Right so where is the blood pact now? Are they still relevant? Is black library writing a host of stories on renegade chaos followers and what they get up to? Instead of imperials blasting them in the face? Or are they just writing about chaos space marines as always? I personally don't see a host of human characters making waves in the chaos lore in 40k it's either daemons or csm doing the big shows.

It's as josh reynolds said in his interview he started to write 40k because it's more lucrative and guess what most of the 40k stories are about?

I think it's a bad idea for a game company to openly favour one of their factions over the others. In the case of Space Marines, GW can't really change that any more, they've already taken that route. With the Stormcasts, they had the chance not to make the same mistake, but they went ahead and did the same thing again. That's annoying, and I think it drives away potential customers who happen to dislike GW's chosen poster boys. I know I would've become interested in 40k years earlier if I hadn't been led to believe there were only Marines in it.

 Cream Tea wrote:
I think it's a bad idea for a game company to openly favour one of their factions over the others. In the case of Space Marines, GW can't really change that any more, they've already taken that route. With the Stormcasts, they had the chance not to make the same mistake, but they went ahead and did the same thing again. That's annoying, and I think it drives away potential customers who happen to dislike GW's chosen poster boys. I know I would've become interested in 40k years earlier if I hadn't been led to believe there were only Marines in it.

The only way it would change if people stop buying them which they won't so GW will keep supplying it. Don't get me wrong I don't hate space marines or stormcast. I prefer stormcast narrative wise because they are far more human and the fact both stormcast and chaos followers have baggage from their mortal origins in AOS.

I much prefer mine to be Stormcast Internals.

It didnt help for me that I always thought Sigmar himself was such a lame character,. I read his time of legends trilogy and he is such a "who cares" character that he couldnt even carry his own trilogy. thats sad, he was the least interesting person in his own series. Now he is really a god and not just a ancestor style diety in the setting and he is still just as lame.

The stormcast remind me of traumatized sex dolls, all with their horrified faces.

Then the females being the EXACT same models with 2 bumps on the chest is just sickening and pandering to the lowest class.

Everything about them reads as minimal effort hoping to grab the comic book genre.

The whole AoS lore seems like it would belong in a marvel x men book better then a world that is actually suppose to work. Right now the only reason AoS world exist is because imagination.

WHFB and such was as if they created a world and thought things through, who made the food who stole it, the evil spirits of the old that many wondered if where real or fake. No real gods or anything just belief in them. Different factions of people trying to work together just long enough to beat a threat and do a land grab, Different cultures and such.

AoS lightning god shoots lightning people from the sky he remade as people for reasons even tho it would be better to remake them as better war gods but... reasons. Then star lizards shooting stars falling from the sky to make people rather then moving on to another world because the frogs are upset about what happened millions of years ago but did nothing until like a week ago. People who live in like 9 bubble worlds full of different material how they build stuff who makes the food how they travel ect, who knows it imagination land... just so much gah.

Lord Kragan wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
And I guess sharing some (very) common archetypal themes means they're exactly alike? How many fantasy or sci-fi setting can you name that don't feature an order of elite warriors who follow some incredibly powerful ruler to fight against the forces of evil?

What, you mean like Warhammer Fantasy Battles?

I always considered it an intentional design feature rather than an oversight that WHFB lacked a race of super duper good guys. It's not a universe of good vs evil, it was humanity vs everything, some of which may be evil. It was one of (though certainly not the only) thing that made the world appealing to me.

Phoenix guard. An elite force under the service a god that fight against the forces of evil.

True, but they aren't their own faction, and they aren't transformed into an unnatural being twice normal size. Their imbuement of divinity is basically just a protection that plays out as a ward save on the table top. (at least that's my understanding, I don't play the pointy eared skirt wearing pansies ).

But that aside as it's not really relevant to the topic at hand, really, not seeing that Stormcast are Ground Marines because of a few fluff differences seems to be missing the forest for the all trees. It'd be like saying Eldar aren't Space Elves because you can pick out some fluff differences, or Squats aren't Space Dwarfs, or Bretonnians aren't medieval French.

Of course they aren't EXACTLY those things, but they are in all the ways that matter.

Elite Warriors in their previous life? Check
Transformed in to unnaturally super soldiers? Check
Adorned in bulky head to toe armour? Check
Pushed by GW at every corner? Check

Yeah, they're also much more 2 dimensional

No, they really aren't. Unless you can provide us an extensive analysis to prove your claims.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:



Elite Warriors in their previous life? Check

Except there's a ton of former civilians and assorted non-combatants in their ranks. Gardus was a hospice worker, Enyo was a scholar, Solus was a miller.

Hell, the liberators' entry in their battletome makes it painstakingly clear that they are predominantly filled with commoners that rose in their direst moment and thus could be considered heroes in sigmar's eyes. for they fought bravely in their finest hour, their capabilities be damned.

Yeah, it's pretty clear from their backgrounds that Sigmar recruits for willpower more than physical prowess. Anyone willing to go down fighting rather than running while their loved ones were butchered.

WHFB and such was as if they created a world and thought things through, who made the food who stole it, the evil spirits of the old that many wondered if where real or fake. No real gods or anything just belief in them.

Well the Old World benefited a lot from numerous rpgs for all that stuff where as AoS only has a few novels with that type of info and Hammerhal.

Certainly GW isn't going to put all that in when the "war" part of the wargame needs to come first(just as it was with the Old World)and it's only been two years of on-and-off lore focus. With how much lore is getting pumped out now though and Cubicle7 next year we will probably see a fully fleshed out setting in the near future. (And one with no edition retcons :p )

AoS lightning god shoots lightning people from the sky he remade as people for reasons even tho it would be better to remake them as better war gods but... reasons. Then star lizards shooting stars falling from the sky to make people rather then moving on to another world because the frogs are upset about what happened millions of years ago but did nothing until like a week ago. People who live in like 9 bubble worlds full of different material how they build stuff who makes the food how they travel ect, who knows it imagination land... just so much gah.

Make them into war gods when they've never done that before or are even capable of it, right..

Good to see you got over the space lizard ghosts thing but I don't understand that logic. What other worlds(and who's to say they haven't tried, the chaos books make it clear Archaon has devastated countless worlds) and why is it surprising a race made to combat chaos is focused on defeating chaos which not only ruined their past plans and world but are a clear threat to their current ones?

As for a "week ago", the fact that they are guarding secret relics such as the one that can tell Slaanesh's where abouts shows they've been active since chaos' assault on the realms.

As for the rest, reading one of the city focused novels would be a good bet since they focus on the various industries found within the 8 mortal realms. (The 9th is the chaos realm, btw)

Last part, I should hope it's "imagination land". That's kinda the very definition of Fantasy.

I personally don't see a host of human characters making waves in the chaos lore in 40k it's either daemons or csm doing the big shows. 

I thought the chaos sniper in the Gaunt's Ghost novel was really good. They make excellent side characters.

 AaronWilson wrote:
The thing I like about marines is the fall of them to Chaos. Stormcast being perfect is a bit zzzzzzzz, let's see some of them be corrupted, or mutated!

That is one of the laziest things that could happen.

OgreChubbs wrote:


Then the females being the EXACT same models with 2 bumps on the chest is just sickening and pandering to the lowest class.

What are you even talking about? Aside from sharing the aesthetic (that is, wearing heavy armor) the anatomy of females and males is distintively different. Neave has thinner legs and arms, a thinner and curvier waistline. Hell, even the warmask's details are more delicate, less rotund.

Yeah, one of the things that I noticed immediately was the curve line on the newest female stormcast (from shadespire) - she has a thinner waist and breastplate than the male stormcast I don't know if her hips are slightly larger or just seem so next to her thinner waist, but she definitely seems distinct and feminine enough

 shinros wrote:

Right so where is the blood pact now? Are they still relevant?

Yes and no. Blood Pact are, at this point, a defeated foe. The events of Gaunt's Ghosts is some 700ish years before the "current date". There is a slight uptick in the portrayal of 'Renegades and Heretics" styled rabble; Justin Hill's three Ursukar Creed short stories("Last Step Backwards", "Lost Hope", "Battle of Tyrok Fields") feature a cult leader that is considered important enough by the Black Legion that they evacuate him when he's almost slain. His novel "Cadia Stands" also features cults pretty heavily as the opposition with Traitor Astartes making brief appearances.

Is black library writing a host of stories on renegade chaos followers and what they get up to? Instead of imperials blasting them in the face? Or are they just writing about chaos space marines as always? I personally don't see a host of human characters making waves in the chaos lore in 40k it's either daemons or csm doing the big shows.

Because that's how Chaos works in 40k...?


The Traitor Astartes are considered demigods by the mortal rabble that they have enslaved or drawn to their banner specifically to be cannon fodder in their wars of vengeance against the Imperium they feel betrayed them.

Part of the reason I enjoyed Fantasy as much as I did was the lack of 'Space Marines'. The armies you saw were pretty diverse and you could turn up at an event or store not really knowing what you'd face, unlike 40k where you can guarantee at least 50% of your opponents will be in loyalist marks of power armour. Sure there were some that were more popular than others - Warriors of Chaos and High Elves come to mind - but it wasn't nearly to the degree SMs dominated 40k.

Of course, no good thing lasts forever, and we end up with Sigmarines. 90% of the lore focusing on them, generic and bland protagonists, boring models, receiving the vast majority of the new releases, etc. The fact they probably killed Fantasy in part to push Space Marines on the setting certainly doesn't help my disdain for them.

So yeah, I hate 'em. I think I'd hate them less if they were just part of a Not!Empire (Free Guilds or w/e) army, where they're a handful of units designed to work in tandem with the fleshy mortals.

I agree with everything Arbitrator said, plus they look ridiculous. Even the archers have the same heavy armor as their front-line guys.

That's because they're being dropped immediately into enemy territory and surrounded on all sides. The novels have them joining the melee several times because of how bad the situation is.

Also, they weren't the reason the setting changed. Blanche has concepts of them that show they were originally planned as good guy chaos knights for 8th edition. The Old World was left behind for trademarks and a easier to change setting.

Their large amount of releases is due to being a new army that was very lacking as a entry starter set faction( especially compared to the opposing Khornites force) and it's hardly 90% of the lore when chaos is so heavily focused on too.

I'd say it's more like 40% thanks to the realm gate wars, 40% chaos and 20% other which is on the rise now that the focus of Order is taking a backseat.

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

A) Yes, it's a thing that's happening in the lore B) Exactly why it's dumb?

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

That is pretty much a major storyline with Nagash right now.

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

A) Yes, it's a thing that's happening in the lore B) Exactly why it's dumb?

He exploded into gold. I don't want to shock you but dwarfs are made out of meat not gold.

Dwarfs are, gods can be made out of whatever they want to be(usually element specific)and having his remains be a mythical metal sounds about right for a the people so attuned to it and all things under the earth.

Though with the incoming Gotrek story we might see how dead this god is...

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

A) Yes, it's a thing that's happening in the lore B) Exactly why it's dumb?

He exploded into gold. I don't want to shock you but dwarfs are made out of meat not gold.

He did not explode into gold when he shattered against the god beast their essence mixed together and spread across all the gold ore veins in the mortal realms. The madness the fyreslayers suffer from is most likely from the godbeast.

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

A) Yes, it's a thing that's happening in the lore B) Exactly why it's dumb?

He exploded into gold. I don't want to shock you but dwarfs are made out of meat not gold.

I don't want to shock you but gold for the dwarves of the warhammer universe means "something important", not just the specific metal (aside from what shinros' stated).

Ya they are tying to rebuild a god from collecting all the gold in the world the step 2:............. Step 3: a god.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Ya they are tying to rebuild a god from collecting all the gold in the world the step 2:............. Step 3: a god.

You haven't heard much of the myth of Osiris, haven't you? Plus... it's not all the gold, just the one their priests' detect the essence of Grimnir on.

I dunno, I still say my perceptions changed when I started my own skirmish warband where all my Stormcast have personalities. When I originally got the idea I went immediately from being completely indifferent about them to liking them.

Of course things are helped by the fact that I only game with a couple close friends, so the background can be rewritten how we see fit. Stormcast can be pushed farther into the background, or hell, I even toy with an idea of basing our games in the Warhammer World, and rewriting things to ignore the final act of the End Times, and have Stormcast coming down to reinforce the Empire in the 11th hour like Asguardians on the Bifrost.

Either way, I think they are just plain more palatable as a skirmish force of heroes than an entire army of Cybermen.

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem with Space Marines being popular is that it's a chicken and egg scenario. Are they popular because they're good or because they're the favourite?

I think it would be nice to see some more God interactions seeing that's one of the potentials AoS has over Fantasy. For example Sigmar takes all the heros of the Realms but what if Grimnir takes issue with that?

Grimnir is dead...

Yeah, I forgot that dumbness was a thing. The idea stands though.

A) Yes, it's a thing that's happening in the lore B) Exactly why it's dumb?

He exploded into gold. I don't want to shock you but dwarfs are made out of meat not gold.

I don't want to shock you but gold for the dwarves of the warhammer universe means "something important", not just the specific metal (aside from what shinros' stated).

Although the actual gold being put into people makes it look like metal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Either way, I think they are just plain more palatable as a skirmish force of heroes than an entire army of Cybermen.

I'd love a Cyberman army far more to be honest. Cybermen are cool. You will be upgraded.

 EnTyme wrote:
The marine comparison is mostly cosmetic. The armies' themes are really no that similar.

yes the the super soldiers created by the god king (slash god emperor) organized into military chambers reminiscent of crusading orders acting like warrior monks have nothing at all in common