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AoS needs a revamp and I suspect once 40K 8thed is settled we'll see GW restore a lot of Sigma to some of its original roots. Certainly many armies need restructuring and they need to fix their website too (at present anyone new to Sigma and wanting to play, say, elves will find it a nightmare just finding what goes into an elf army). Sure the story is forever changed for Sigma but there's no reason they can't bring back faction identities; heck with Warhammer TW doing so well it would be a shock if GW didn't get Sigma sorted within a year or two (to at least tie into the 3rd and last TW Warhammer release)

 Kriswall wrote:
GW is trying to nickle and dime us to death, except that the nickles are $25 and the dimes are $50.

You act like they're vast sums of money, though. They're not.

M.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Games Workshop's other game, Age of Sigmar has...

1. Legacy Support for all old models. (free warscrolls)
2. No requirement for multiple books. (battletomes are largely optional and not yet released for most factions)
3. Free core rules. (that actually include everything you need to play a game, unlike the 40k free rules that don't explain even basic army selection or deployment)
4. Free unit warscrolls (datasheets).

Battletomes also weren't ever intended to be a requirement. There is some stuff that you can't ever get via the free rules though such as the different Orders of Stormcast Eternals which they do sell as microtransactions. Imagine the whining if you had free rules for everything but people had to pay $2.50 for Ultramarines' Chapter Tactics if they didn't want to buy the codex.

Realistically, you need to buy the General's Handbook ($25) for the points and Matched Play rules. You can also buy a Battletome (Codex) if you want, but it's very, very optional for most armies. Given that AoS has legacy support, free core rules and free unit rules... I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same from 40k and be a little irritated that a small army requires multiple, expensive rules sources.

The Battletomes are far from optional at this point. Warscroll Battalions are here to stay.

Also, General's Handbook is $35 for the 2017 edition. It's bigger than the previous one.

Both Matched Play...

AoS:
To run a Stormcast Eternal army with at least one Legacy unit AND a Seraphon army with at least one Legacy unit AND not caring about extra army rules requires $25 worth of purchases.
* General's Handbook 2017 ($25)
* Everything else is free

And what happens if you want to run any of the Warscroll Battalions that aren't the Legacy one?

40K:
To run a Space Marines army with at least one Legacy unit AND a Tyranids army with at least one Legacy unit AND not caring about extra army rules requires $225 worth of purchases.
* Warhammer 40,000 BRB ($60)
* Index Imperium 1 ($25)
* Codex Space Marines ($50)
* Index Xenos 2 ($25)
* Codex Tyranids ($40)
* Chapter Approved 2017 ($25 - probably)

Just saying... it's not an unreasonable expectation since GW is actually doing it right now for their other game.

Sure they're doing it for AoS...because they've killed off not just units but whole armies in some cases. Also worth mentioning that General's Handbook doesn't update everything and the Warscrolls that no longer exist aren't in it.

For example, my Glade Riders have no points attached to them.

I would actually be ecstatic if the rules were generally free and I could just pay a couple of bucks to unlock an "Ultramarines Chapter Tactics Pack" with Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Relics and a few other things. I think a lot of people would be happy about that.

Also, as to the Battalion Warscrolls... I DID say that I didn't care about extra army rules. Adding that in obviously increases the costs across the board.

Im just saying, i can lug a single page of rules and get a better and cheaper rule set. By cheaper i mean free. You can totally get new blood with it. Add house rules to flavor and you wont ever have to worry about book and rules bloat!
https://onepagerules.com

 Overread wrote:
AoS needs a revamp and I suspect once 40K 8thed is settled we'll see GW restore a lot of Sigma to some of its original roots. Certainly many armies need restructuring and they need to fix their website too (at present anyone new to Sigma and wanting to play, say, elves will find it a nightmare just finding what goes into an elf army). Sure the story is forever changed for Sigma but there's no reason they can't bring back faction identities; heck with Warhammer TW doing so well it would be a shock if GW didn't get Sigma sorted within a year or two (to at least tie into the 3rd and last TW Warhammer release)

Not sure why the website is so problematic? It's not like you push "Aelf" on there and get sent to all of the things that have keyword "Aelf" on them somewhere. It's broken into the subfactions that you can look at via the app.

Worth mentioning that there is no "Aelf" army right now. There's only two items that come up under that heading on the app and that is the Mistweaver Saih and Tenebrael Shard.

GW in 'not really changing' shock horror
8th in 'not actually simpler' shock horror
whodafunkit

I feel like no matter what GW does at this point someone's going to come up with a complaint about it.

My question is, if you don't want to have to HAVE so many books, don't take the items from them. We had this discussion in my Club last night.

We can't cry for more options from GW, and when we have them, cry because we have too many things that give us options. The Indexes are there so that older players can still use models that are no longer produced. To be honest, it's actually quite a nice thing to have from an older player perspective and a nice homage to us from GW. They could have just as easily said "Nope, can't use that stuff anymore" and we'd have more butthurt from older players.

In summary, if you don't want to carry/buy 10 books, don't take all the options from all of the different books. Take them from your codex or from the Index if you don't have a codex yet.

 Kriswall wrote:

I would actually be ecstatic if the rules were generally free and I could just pay a couple of bucks to unlock an "Ultramarines Chapter Tactics Pack" with Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Relics and a few other things. I think a lot of people would be happy about that.

Yeah, I'm sure they would...

You seem to forget that people complained about the free rules for AoS even at launch when the campaign books included more stuff that wasn't free.

Also, as to the Battalion Warscrolls... I DID say that I didn't care about extra army rules. Adding that in obviously increases the costs across the board.

Right, because it also doesn't match your attempted example.

No matter how things shake out, it looks like you'd find something to complain about.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

zerosignal wrote:
GW in 'not really changing' shock horror
8th in 'not actually simpler' shock horror
whodafunkit

The big thing is that 8th actually is simpler. It really is. The rules are pretty easy and quite frankly, I don't see a reason why you'd have to carry your rulebook with you to a game once you're familiar with the core rules and what keywords do. The idea that you need to bring your rulebook for the Detachments is kinda silly as you should be doing your lists ahead of time and it's not hard to figure out what goes where past a certain point.

The problem is that people are obsessing over things like the "requirement" to bring their Index with them because of one model that they can't run in the codex anymore. Take Shrikes for example. The only time they actually had a kit was from Forge World. Did people really expect them to stay in the Codex when the Vendetta, one of the similarly most easy to convert things in the game didn't stay in the Guard book? It went to the Forge World Index and still resides there after the Guard book has dropped.
There very much is an attempt to try and overcomplicate things in the weirdest way.

I think on the subject of books im an all or nothing kind of guy. I want all the rules compiled in one or 2 publications, to play ah faction. I want a codex with index exclusive entries, and ca updates after a few years. And for that i wait. Because i dont feel like buying all that. If you dont want 5 books and or publications, i advise you to not buy it as well. They interface with the community a lot more these days and they will one day get the picture. Vote with your wallets.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Galas wrote:


But to play I don't even use books, as Elbows I have all my stats and army rules in MTG-sized cards that the group of Wikihammer is doing. So when I make an army I just pick a "deck" with the units and weapons I'm gonna use, besides the "generic card" that has all the Army rules.

An interesting idea I'm curious to try - would you happen to have a link?

I have, the problem is that they are all in Spanish. And I don't know if I can link directly here in Dakkadakka because they are the rules (Without point costs) so I don't know if it is considered piracy.

Here is an example of the wonderfull work they have done:

I have just print those, glue them to a little cardboard piece and put them on card sleeves. So basically when I'm listbuilding instead of going with my book to the club, I just have a "deck" with all the rules of my army.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

I would actually be ecstatic if the rules were generally free and I could just pay a couple of bucks to unlock an "Ultramarines Chapter Tactics Pack" with Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Relics and a few other things. I think a lot of people would be happy about that.

Yeah, I'm sure they would...

You seem to forget that people complained about the free rules for AoS even at launch when the campaign books included more stuff that wasn't free.

Also, as to the Battalion Warscrolls... I DID say that I didn't care about extra army rules. Adding that in obviously increases the costs across the board.

Right, because it also doesn't match your attempted example.

No matter how things shake out, it looks like you'd find something to complain about.

You can feel free to paint me as a serial complainer, but I don't think my complaints are unreasonable. Everyone expects that a new edition will require a purchase of new rules. I just didn't expect that purchase to cost so much and be spread out over so many books. As a Space Wolves player, I need to buy...

1. Warhammer 40,000 Core Rulebook. I'm ok with this. New Edition, new rulebook. That's reasonable.
2. Index Imperium 1. Hmmm... I'd be happier if the interim datasheets were free, knowing that I'm going to have to buy a new Codex, but I guess $25 isn't too bad.
3. Codex Space Marines. Ok, I'm really not happy that I need to buy this, but it does have the most recent datasheets for some of the units in my army, so if I want the most up to date rules, I need this. My community expects everyone to use the most up to date rules.
4. Chapter Approved 2017. Seriously? My codex isn't even out yet and I'm buying an update to both my interim list and an entirely different Codex that I didn't want in the first place? I'm also getting a handful of rules
5. Codex Space Wolves. Finally.

I'm simply not as willing as you to give GW a pass on this. They either didn't think this through or did think this through and simply don't care that a single faction requires a ton of money to play if you want up to date rules.

Kriswall, you are right, GW will milk us for 40k. In AoS they need to convince people to play, thats why they rebox Stormcast Eternals from 5 a box to 10 lowering the price per model something like 37%, and they literally lower the price of the Magmadroth, the first time in GW history they do that, and put it on a SC! box with other 10 naked slayers.

But in 40K we have 7-man box of plague marines.

True powergamers will want the best versions from each book however.

For example the Horrors in the Index can be spammed for super-cheap Smite units that clog up the battlefield. This was"fixed" in the CSM codex a bit (and I assume it will be so in the Daemons codex). But That Guy will take them from the index, and everything else from the codex...

Cheeslord wrote:
True powergamers will want the best versions from each book however.

For example the Horrors in the Index can be spammed for super-cheap Smite units that clog up the battlefield. This was"fixed" in the CSM codex a bit (and I assume it will be so in the Daemons codex). But That Guy will take them from the index, and everything else from the codex...

This is completely irrelevant to the current discussion. The FAQs are pretty clear that if there is a new version of a given datasheet in a Codex, the newer version should be used. I would consider purposefully using a prior edition of a datasheet for in game advantage to be a form of cheating. I'm not a power gamer or a cheater. The current discussion is simply about how many rules sources are needed and the related expense to run a simple army "correctly" in today's 8th Edition.

If that is the only reason he brings index, he doesn't get to complain about carrying a great many books.

I like to think in positives, it reduces my stress levels : I don't thinkGW origianlly intended to completely invalidate certain old option (autarchs with jump generators) saw online backlash and changed it. Not something they would have done 2-3 years ago.

I suspect the two main reasons GW invalided models with no rules form the new codex are:

1) After the Chapter Approved case GW doesn't want to leave models on the table that 3rd parties can cast up and sell before GW sells a model for that option

2) It makes it a LOT more new-gamer friendly. Sure anyone can learn to convert, but when you're new chances are you don't have the skills; you don't have the backlog of spare parts that make converting affordable; etc...

It's also worse if its an old model that was on sale and now isn't as that kinda gives a feeling that older players have a bonus over newer ones (even if the old unit is rubbish). I think GW cleaning up the codex and yet still providing the index is a great move. Fans with bigger collections can still use the models in friendly matches if they want; whilst anyone new to the hobby has a single codex purchase and its got everything for your army in it.

Also lets not forget Chapter Approved is also being bundled with Apoc and other rules systems so its not just a rebalance and a few stat changes; its also expanded game modes (And apoc has proven to be very popular)

When I get my codex, I'll then cut the pages I want out of the index and throw the rest in the recycle bin. Eliminates a book to carry.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
When I get my codex, I'll then cut the pages I want out of the index and throw the rest in the recycle bin. Eliminates a book to carry.

I realize you're kidding here, but you do touch on a good point: You can photocopy the dang entries - or just crop them out of the PDF - and build your own reference manual. Hell the newer model kits *come with* datacards! Fantastic idea I think, something I believe used to be done 2e / 3e times.

You can still bring whatever books you want. Make yourself a cheatsheet if you want.

(I hefted the BRB, Index, and SM codex last night at the FLGS in honor of this thread - if that's a heavy load to you, see a doctor).

M.

tneva82 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:
I don't see it being a problem that you have to own a codex, the main rules, and the yearly Chapter Approved. The "index option" stuff is just for people who want to use old models; a new player doesn't need to worry about that crap.

I don't think GW is fragmenting 40k. However, I think a very strong move they could have (and SHOULD have) made would be to do away with codexes altogether. I really expected this after AOS, and was strongly disappointed that it didn't go this route. A wargame in 2017 does not need dedicated, REQUIRED army books.

Of course this means that by december 2019 you are looking at, assuming you play just one faction(HAH! Who plays 1 faction armies these days?) you have minimum of 5 books to carry around. Index, codex and 3 chapter aproved's. Nevermind other indexes/codexes for your allies or forge world books.

That's a lot of books to lug around. Makes one almost hope they would redo codexes fully once a year. At least would keep to 2 books to carry around. Index and codex.

what makes you think they wont just override the previous years chaprooved.

ultimately the way these books are being released it only hurts for people that run many factions. its fine for new players or people that are conservative in there collection. (or people with out updated codex)

GW greed plus what makes you think they will put more and more point change pages to new book? Bunch of point changes this year, new ones next year. List grows pretty fast.

Plus doubtful they put all the rules from chapter approved 2017 to 2018 version. Or does the page count double each year

The generals handbook..

Feeling very fragmented to me currently. Owning a mix of 7 armies (plus FW models) feels very disjointed atm and confusing in some places.
Can only hope it genuinely settles next year once everyone gets a codex but have a definite fear the merry go round might just start up again.....

Back in the RT days they had separate books just for weapons... this is GW, it has pretty much always been this way in terms of requiring more than one document.

 Infantryman wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
When I get my codex, I'll then cut the pages I want out of the index and throw the rest in the recycle bin. Eliminates a book to carry.

I realize you're kidding here, but you do touch on a good point: You can photocopy the dang entries - or just crop them out of the PDF - and build your own reference manual. Hell the newer model kits *come with* datacards! Fantastic idea I think, something I believe used to be done 2e / 3e times.

You can still bring whatever books you want. Make yourself a cheatsheet if you want.

(I hefted the BRB, Index, and SM codex last night at the FLGS in honor of this thread - if that's a heavy load to you, see a doctor).

M.

I'm not kidding.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
When I get my codex, I'll then cut the pages I want out of the index and throw the rest in the recycle bin. Eliminates a book to carry.

I realize you're kidding here, but you do touch on a good point: You can photocopy the dang entries - or just crop them out of the PDF - and build your own reference manual. Hell the newer model kits *come with* datacards! Fantastic idea I think, something I believe used to be done 2e / 3e times.

You can still bring whatever books you want. Make yourself a cheatsheet if you want.

(I hefted the BRB, Index, and SM codex last night at the FLGS in honor of this thread - if that's a heavy load to you, see a doctor).

M.

I'm not kidding.

Oh. Well, get the PDF version, then. Less effort, less material waste.

M.

Lets be honest - GW has a LONG way to go before they get to DnD levels of book madness

 Overread wrote:
Lets be honest - GW has a LONG way to go before they get to DnD levels of book madness

Doesn't the DnD Adventurer's League stipulate that player's can only use the Player's Handbook plus one other source? That's not exactly book madness. The new edition is actually very reasonable. Requires fewer rule books than 40k does.

 Kriswall wrote:
Doesn't the DnD Adventurer's League stipulate that player's can only use the Player's Handbook plus one other source? That's not exactly book madness.

So what you're saying is that a TO made a house rule? Heresy!

When 9th rolls around, expect any Index only units to be eliminated from the game.

 Kriswall wrote:
To run a Space Marines army with at least one Legacy unit AND a Tyranids army with at least one Legacy unit AND not caring about extra army rules requires $225 worth of purchases.
* Warhammer 40,000 BRB ($60)
* Index Imperium 1 ($25)
* Codex Space Marines ($50)
* Index Xenos 2 ($25)
* Codex Tyranids ($40)
* Chapter Approved 2017 ($25 - probably)

Just saying... it's not an unreasonable expectation since GW is actually doing it right now for their other game.

-- Complaining about having to buy the BRB is so silly, so including it on the list of books you want to whinge about buying is silly. Regardless of all else, the BRB is the one book you'll buy regardless.

-- So from my understanding of what is going into it, Chapter Approved will contain a nice amount of extra stuff which will be probably justify the expenditure. Since your Codex comes out after Chapter Approved, a couple of things come to mind:
-- -- Once your Codex for Space Wolves comes out, you buying it is entirely optional for obvious reasons.
-- -- If you find yourself needing to refer to the Chapter Approved book because your opponent insists Chapter Approved be used, I'm sure there's someone at your local GW or an Open Copy at said GW that you can use for the short amount of time you're likely to need it.

But let's be honest: The Chapter Approved book is going to be worth it anyway and is - in my mind - akin to the BRB. There'll be additions to core rules as well as extras that I think a majority of players will be incorporating into the games, meaning it would be prudent to have these extra rules and treat the Chapter Approved as a kind of second BRB. In my mind, there's no sense in whinging about buying it.

As for the Index for Space Marines (with particular reference to the Captain), this was covered by Scott-S6 on Page 2:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.

Plus I haven't read the index personally since I waited for the Space Marine Codex to come out before starting to play in 8th, but I find it hard to believe that there wasn't a Captain profile in the Index that you could use. Saying "I bought the SM Codex so I could use the Captain profile" is one of the most foolish things I've ever heard of someone doing in 40K. Buying an entire Codex to use the most recent version of a profile you almost surely had access to anyway is ridiculous and your own fault, so you don't get to whinge about that. You could have just stuck with the Index.

Let’s look at 7th edition... bandaid fix to 6th edition...

40k Apoc hope you love the D and stomps. An infinite amount of super OP formations. Flyrant spam... there was super rules bloat with many useless rules - Soul Blaze.

8th edition is a total reboot and just what the game needed.

Overread wrote:Lets be honest - GW has a LONG way to go before they get to DnD levels of book madness

Let me tell you 'bout GURPS...

M.