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So we all know that gk rules currently are a pretty bad. I don’t want to change them a lot, just enough to make them a bit more competitive.
For a start I would give PaGk (at least purifiers)+1 A and make Hq smite like the “standard” version .
Then maybe change some of the points cost for units and weapons(example :make Terminators a bit cheaper) .
Any critics and ideas are welcome

The Custodian wrote:
So we all know that gk rules currently are a pretty bad. I don’t want to change them a lot, just enough to make them a bit more competitive.
For a start I would give PaGk (at least purifiers)+1 A and make Hq smite like the “standard” version .
Then maybe change some of the points cost for units and weapons(example :make Terminators a bit cheaper) .
Any critics and ideas are welcome

Not to sound like a snob, but what's more competitive than dreadknight HQ's?

I have been reading the GK codex and watched a good few games with them in and I'm really not seeing this "They totally SUX" stuff I read online. The codex is a nice read, the rules a strong and the models range is solid.

About the dreadknight , yes they are competitive that’s why I’m not complaining about them( the smite is just to make a bit more serious the fact that gk hq are supposed to be more powerful psikers thant the rest of the army)
About the “ they totally sux” , no they don’t , but they are considered by many the worst . I considere them to be in the lower third of the current armies . You can make some good lists with them but they still luck that punch that could make them more effective. Lower model count should mean better quality. I know they are specialists but they are also depicted as “ better” Marines in the fluff; not OP level but maybe primaris level?

The Dreadknight Grandmaster was an okay idea with garbage execution. Without trying to hit them too hard, they could have a rule that says they can never be the Warlord. Then you adjust costs.

Librarians need regular Smite.

Purifiers get two attacks.

Strike Squads are okay as is, but they need to be able to pack a little more heavy weapons as they basically follow the Tactical Squad lineup that way.

Purgators get the Signum and Cherub access.

Paladins go down 3 points, and regular Terminators another 2.

That's all off the top of my head but I don't own the Grey Knight codex so...

 Hollow wrote:
I have been reading the GK codex and watched a good few games with them in and I'm really not seeing this "They totally SUX" stuff I read online. The codex is a nice read, the rules a strong and the models range is solid.

So..could you give me an example of a well put together Fast Attack detachment or a Heavy Support detachment for a 2000P Mono GK list?
Without spamming the same unit over and over again AND considering that you want to get to 8-10 command points.

"The Models range is solid"
We have one box for 4 different unit types.

Fast attack has only one unit.

Heavy support has
-Purgation Squads, which are ok (but our heavy weapons are bad)
-Nemes Dreadknights, which are obsolete thanks to GMNDK
-Landraiders, which are obsolete thanks to Stormravens

They are the most elitist army in a game that punishes elites in every phase of the game.

Gest wrote:
So..could you give me an example of a well put together Fast Attack detachment or a Heavy Support detachment for a 2000P Mono GK list?
Without spamming the same unit over and over again AND considering that you want to get to 8-10 command points.

"The Models range is solid"
We have one box for 4 different unit types.

Fast attack has only one unit.

Heavy support has
-Purgation Squads, which are ok (but our heavy weapons are bad)
-Nemes Dreadknights, which are obsolete thanks to GMNDK
-Landraiders, which are obsolete thanks to Stormravens

1. Why do you need fast attack when you have army wide deepstrike?
2. 6-8 CP's (before CP adding warlords) are typical amount of CP for elite armies. Having said, GK is the only army that can spam terminators and still get 9 CP's.
3. At least all of the boxes are somewhat useful, unlike veterans
4. Again, why do you need FA when your entire army has deepstrike?
5. point taken.
6. aren't grand master NDK's still NDK's? At least GK didn't get slapped like Tau did (crisis and commanders)
7. land raiders are at the same place in all space marine armies, not just GK.

 skchsan wrote:



1. Why do you need fast attack when you have army wide deepstrike?
2. 6-8 CP's (before CP adding warlords) are typical amount of CP for elite armies. Having said, GK is the only army that can spam terminators and still get 9 CP's.
3. At least all of the boxes are somewhat useful, unlike veterans
4. Again, why do you need FA when your entire army has deepstrike?
5. point taken.
6. aren't grand master NDK's still NDK's? At least GK didn't get slapped like Tau did (crisis and commanders)
7. land raiders are at the same place in all space marine armies, not just GK.

You are not the Hollow one AND you didnt follow my request, but I will still answer:

1. why not? When someone says "solid units" and at the same time you basically don't have units in 2 of your army building choices, there is something wrong.
Secondly: did you know about the rules that you have to start with 50% of your drops on the table?

2. The problem is that GK is one of the most CP-dependent armies right now and they have the hardest time to get CP. And the 2 Gems that give GK a somewhat useful shooting phase cost 2 CP each. (GK "dont have" heavy weapons, 1 of their heavy weapons is barely any stronger than a Stormbolter, the other 2 are overpriced and one of those can't be used from deepstrike).
Additionally: GK Terminators are bad, because they aren't point efficient, neither compared to Paladins nor for the smite spam.
Additionally: Terminators are generally bad in this edition because of the Plasma spam, PLUS GK Terminators are stuck with a 5++, making them fairly squishy. Only option to improve is a stratagem (oh look, cp) or Sanctuary.

3. well..that is true. Those poor Space Marines having a useless box/unit how will they fair with just 20+ other elite choices left?
Sorry, but your argumentation is really bothersome "but Space Marines have bad units, too..and Tau have bad units, too." YES, every faction has bad units, but when you have barely any choice of units and half of them are outright worse than the other half then you run into a very real problem of spamming just a few units (3 different units + transports to be exact), which kills your fun because no diversity and kills the enemys fun because you have a spam list.

4. Why not? Why push out a codex so quick, when half of the slots are empty? It could've been easily an Inquisition Codex again. You wouldn't leave the Heavy Choices of Eldar almost empty and say "but you have Jetbikes and powerful psykers!".

6. Not really, One is heavy support and one is HQ. The HQ version is so supperior to the HS version that it makes no sense to take the HS for the low points increase, making the HS choice obsolete. That was all I'm saying.

7. Indeed. But again, my question was: what do you put in a spearhead detachment when you only have 3 choices, one is worse than the HQ choice, one is worse than the troop choice and one is the overpriced Landraide which is worse than the Stormraven.

Not everything has Deep Strike. Purifiers don't have it still I'm pretty sure.

Question: if i recall correctly don't we have stormtalon and stormhawk in FA ?(I don't have the codex at hand right now)

The Custodian wrote:
Question: if i recall correctly don't we have stormtalon and stormhawk in FA ?(I don't have the codex at hand right now)

Sadly no. They went to their own choice "Flyer" and took the Raven with them.

Gest wrote:

The Custodian wrote:
Question: if i recall correctly don't we have stormtalon and stormhawk in FA ?(I don't have the codex at hand right now)

Sadly no. They went to their own choice "Flyer" and took the Raven with them.

Thanks for the clarification

Now i see that the fact that the codex is bad is quite the hot topic at the moment, but does anyone think that there is a way to improve it without doing i from scratch?

The Custodian wrote:

Gest wrote:

The Custodian wrote:
Question: if i recall correctly don't we have stormtalon and stormhawk in FA ?(I don't have the codex at hand right now)

Sadly no. They went to their own choice "Flyer" and took the Raven with them.

Thanks for the clarification

Now i see that the fact that the codex is bad is quite the hot topic at the moment, but does anyone think that there is a way to improve it without doing i from scratch?

Yeah I proposed minor fixes that go a long way near the top of the thread.

those are good suggestions , but i wouldn't know how to make strike squads like tacs, being that gk are more a CQC army rather than a shooty one thats why i propose that extra attack.
Also PaGk (i'd say all Gk) don't have that many weapon option autside of CQC( which have a space marine equivalent)

The Custodian wrote:
those are good suggestions , but i wouldn't know how to make strike squads like tacs, being that gk are more a CQC army rather than a shooty one thats why i propose that extra attack.
Also PaGk (i'd say all Gk) don't have that many weapon option autside of CQC( which have a space marine equivalent)

I meant in terms of how many special/heavy weapons they got. I'm personally a fan of allowing 3 total in a Strike Squad, one at 5 men, two at 7 men, and 3 at 10 men to encourage larger squad sizes yet not trying to punish MSU.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Custodian wrote:
those are good suggestions , but i wouldn't know how to make strike squads like tacs, being that gk are more a CQC army rather than a shooty one thats why i propose that extra attack.
Also PaGk (i'd say all Gk) don't have that many weapon option autside of CQC( which have a space marine equivalent)

I meant in terms of how many special/heavy weapons they got. I'm personally a fan of allowing 3 total in a Strike Squad, one at 5 men, two at 7 men, and 3 at 10 men to encourage larger squad sizes yet not trying to punish MSU.

Wouldn't that render useless purgation squads?

Hey guys, so I have been posting on Facebook letting the team know how we feel about our codex and I got several responses!

They gave me and email and would like the grey knight community to come up with what we would like to see change and tell them.

So if we could all start talking about what we would actually like to see change. In actual rules. That we agree on. I'll make a list and email it to them.

So remember that headed forward, try to argue less and work together and think of what we actually want to change. And now is not the time to just say "I want it different" say exactly how. I'll keep track and once we have compiled everything I'll send them the complete list. In also going to do this on another forum.

We actually have their ear now so let's work together and maybe we have a shot at changing our codex for the better!

Man what you say is HUGE


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I say that librarian should know and use the normal Smite that inflict D3 Mortal Wound and on a 11 or 12 does D6.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
and that with demons it is 3 wounds if manifested normally maybe? (just to follow their flow)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also post the link to the other forum if you can

Ok so here is what I have so far ish

D3 smite on hqs if manifested on 10+
Libbies have full smite.
Strikes and purifiers get +1 A
Purifiers get a small increase in rage to smite
Terminators get a decrease in points. Or possibly a way to be a little tougher. (Need ideas on points or the rule change)
Paladins a little tougher as well.
Paladin ancients decrease in points (to what?)
Dragio gets some kind of command point bonus ie he gives you and auto +3 points
We get our relics revamped sinc they all suck. Mostly we want one that gets us back cps
We get cheaper stratagems. Such as psybolt ammo is just 1 cp
I personally would like to see vortex get bumped up a bit. It's worse than normal smite. So maybe make it d6 normally or something.
I would also like to see a few more survival powers. For instance "the shrouding" any shooting attacks against the grey knight infantry unit that cast this power is -1 to hit.
Maybe anothe that gives a sudo fnp of 5+? Just sort of spit balling on that one.
Also a power or wargear that makes purgation squads worth using. Maybe a power that lets them shoot twice if they don't move?
Tech marine needs major decrease in points.

That's what I got off the top of my head. What else? Also if you think of something try giving a specific replacement to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This was the other forum. I still need to let them know about me getting the attention of GW. But if you guys want to read and think of things you want to change here is the link.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/19-grey-knights/

Purifiers get a small increase in rage to smite

They don't get it, maybe you meant cleansing flame ?

Paladins a little tougher as well.

-1 to hit in CQC (the rule could be named "martial paragon")

I personally would like to see vortex get bumped up a bit. It's worse than normal smite. So maybe make it d6 normally or something.

D6 on the model and and D3 for units within 3'' and on a 11+ D6 for both

Maybe anothe that gives a sudo fnp of 5+? Just sort of spit balling on that one.

Against psychic powers for the aegis (or a +1 to deny the witch)

Also a power or wargear that makes purgation squads worth using. Maybe a power that lets them shoot twice if they don't move?

I believe that what we need is better a buff to psilencers and psycannons, like a -2AP on the cannons and for the psilencers,being literal mind-bullets, they should work as "if the unt doesen't cast a psychic power the weapons becomes S6"

Tech marine needs major decrease in points.

Like 10 points more than the marine one(I don't have the marine codex)


If something else comes to my mind i'll post it

The Custodian wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Custodian wrote:
those are good suggestions , but i wouldn't know how to make strike squads like tacs, being that gk are more a CQC army rather than a shooty one thats why i propose that extra attack.
Also PaGk (i'd say all Gk) don't have that many weapon option autside of CQC( which have a space marine equivalent)

I meant in terms of how many special/heavy weapons they got. I'm personally a fan of allowing 3 total in a Strike Squad, one at 5 men, two at 7 men, and 3 at 10 men to encourage larger squad sizes yet not trying to punish MSU.

Wouldn't that render useless purgation squads?

Nah, as I want them to get the Cherub and Signum access as well to keep them unique.

Many of these suggestions are TOO good I feel. Here is what I would put forward:

1. Purifiers get +1A.

2. Cleansing Flame is 4".

3. Terminator prices for Psilencer, Psycannon and Incinerator are reduced to 150% of PAGK costs.

4. Psycannon becomes -2AP.

5. Dreadknight heavy guns get a price decrease to no more than 250% of Terminator weapon costs.

6. Dreadknight Psycannon becomes -2 AP.

7. Dreadknights gain a version of Relentless.

8. Paladins are allowed to take Stormshields for the same cost as Space Marines (or some other kind of item that enables a 3++).

9. HQ Smites are D3 on a 10+.

10. Librarian Smites are full powered, normal Smites.

11. Interceptors gain the Fly keyword.

12. Draigo provides 2 or 3 CP if the Warlord.

13. The Daemon Hammer relic is removed and replaced with one that can recover CP on a 5+ when it is spent.

14. Grandmaster Dreadknights are allowed to take the Cuirass of Sacrifice relic.

15. Vortex of Doom hits all units within 3" of the enemy unit not the enemy model.

16. Castellan Crowe needs the sword stance rules of the Brotherhood Champions added to him.

17. Hammerhand WC reduced to 5.

I'd like 2 damage on psycannons. Or maybe 3 damage on a 6 to wound (but keep base 1).

Terminator weapons could cost the same as for power armour units.

(Once more for those in the back) HQs get real smite.

Strategem to allow a unit to move d6 inches immediately after deep striking. (1CP?)

EXTREME WISHLIST WARNING: Brotherhood traits.

I literally forgot Crowe even had an entry because he's THAT bad.

Make his Cleansing Flame a hefty 6" range and make his sword AP-1. Price accordingly.

How about a stratagem that lets a DK fight/shoot at the top bracket. My reasoning for just the DK is that space marines don't have anything like that in their codex, but they also don't have a dreadknight lol

A lot of awesome suggestions so far!
I will list every unit now (not considering the comments so far).

HQ:
Generally: Give the named Characters and the Librarian a proper smite.

Draigo:
Is fine as he is right now. The CP generation could go to him, but this would make him too similar to Calgar/Gulliman.
I would prefere the CP generation to go into the relics (this forces you to pick a non named character and maybe a non GMNDK)

Voldus:
Is perfect in my opinion.

Grandmaster:
is a perfect vanilla Grandmaster.
BUT you will never take him when you have Voldus, Draigo and GMNDKs as better options.

So maybe give him the option for either a Stormshield or an ability that he can ignore the -1 from heavy weapons.
(or make that his "aura" ability, that every <Terminator> in the detachment ignores the -1 from firing heavy weapons while moving)
He wouldn't be outright better as a choice, but bring something else to the table and give the Terminators a boost.


Grandmaster in Nemesis Dreadknight:
Is perfect.
Maybe just lower the cost of the incinerator.


Castellan Crowe:
I honestly don't know how to fix him.
He is such a mess and the normal Champion is just so much better.

Brother-Captain Stern:
I would leave him as he is right now, he didn't change much to older editions and he was never a good model, so it seems right.

Brother-Captain:
Is ok. Maybe just a small point reduction.
minus 10 to 15 points


Librarian:
Needs the real smite.
You can't have an army full of potent psykers, then have a specialised psyker in that army who can't even cast a proper smite.
(see more under psychic powers)

Techmarine:
Is ok.

Chaplain:
Is ok.

Brootherhood Champion:
Is good.


Troops:
Terminator Squad:
Point reduction is needed, otherwise the Paladins will always be the better choice.
(see wargear for other options)

Strike Squad:
I would say that they are in a good spot.

Elite:
Apothecary:
is perfectly fine, maybe even too strong. But don't tell that to GW please!

Brotherhood Ancient/Paladin Ancient:
Needs a serious point reduction, because he doesn't go well with the rest of the GK tactics and therefor the 2 more guys you would get for his points are way better than his effects.
At least 15 points off of both versions.

Paladin Squad:
Is very good.
I don't know if +1T would make them too strong.
But it would help the rather weak 8th edition terminator problem.
(see wargear for other options)

Purifier Squad:
+1A is needed.
Maybe up the range of Purifying Flame to 4".
(with a Brother-Captain it would go up to 8", a fine range and still not useable if you waste a CP to deepstrike the Purifiers)


Dreadnought/Venerable Dreadnought:
Are ok.

Servitors:
Oh..yeah.. they are in the Codex. =P

Fast Attack:
Interceptor Squads are fine as they are, you can't really improve them.

Its just sad that this section is devoid of diversity because flyers went off to their own section.
But I don't see a way to improve that situation.
Maybe a new unit in the future (haha) that will go into FA.

Heavy Support:
Purgation Squad:
They need an aditional skill to make them considerable.
Don't get me wrong, they are cool with 4 Psilencers, BUT Psilencers arent good enough to make 3 Purgationsquads a better choice than a battalion with 3 Strike Squads. The CP you gain that way are too important.

So Purgation Squads need something different.
Either:
Ignore the -1 from firing (i'm looking at all the cool Eldar toys with that rule).
Or: Can fire 2 times if not moved.
Or: As dedicated fire support they get the psybolt amunition as standard. So all their heavy weapons get the +1S -1AP from the Stratagems permanently.
OR: +6" range for their heavy weapons.

Nemesis Dreadknight:
Maybe a point reduction to even be vailable next to the Grandmaster version.
( I still wouldn't take the normal version, the +1 invul from the GM is just a whole new world for this model)
At least minus 20 points.

Land Raider (all versions):
They are Land Raiders, they can't be fixed without considering all other chapters.
We will see what the CA brings.

Dedicated Transports:
Are ok.

Flyers:
There is nothing do here.
Raven got nerfed in CA so theres that.


Wargear:
Melee Weapons:
Overall they are fine.
I would either wish to give the Sword
"+1 to invul for Terminators" so it becomes a proper choice again.
Or don't limit the staff to melee (would be an easier edit), so GK Terminators get a little more survivability.
We can't get Stormshields and our psychic power+Stratagem are not enough for a whole army.

Special Weapons:
Incinerator:
there are 3 options to make this weapon usable.
1. Point reduction ( 10 Points for Power Armor, 14 Points for Terminators)
2. Up the range to 10" so it can be used from Deepstrike
3. Make it assault

Psilencer:
is fairly balanced but nothing special.
It can go down 4 different paths:
1. "can shoot twice if the user didn't move in previous shooting phase"
2. Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit is resolved with an AP of -2 instead of 0.
3. Reroll failed to wound rolls/wound rolls of 1 (feels rather balanced because of its low strength)
4. the obligatory "make it "assault"

Psycannon:
+1D would be enough to make this thing good (with maybe -4 points for Terminators?).
And the obligatory "make it "assault".

Of course this has to be tested with the special rules from above from Grand Masters and Purgation Squads. (Especially Purgation+ Psilencers could be too strong now)

Relics:
In my opinion they are all rather fine. nothing too OP. I wont change anything. (and please don't remove the Hammer, its awesome)
Add one more relic that gives any form of CP generation or recycling is needed.

Sanctic Discipline:
General:
I think GW didn't balance GK + Matched Play restrictions + their psychic powers.
Seeing that Eldar get 3 pages of powers and some of them have multiple activations, while GK have 1 page to choose from and way more psykers always feels wrong on the battlefield.
I always run into the problem that I can't cast anything else but smite, because the few useful powers have already been used that turn.

I would love to see 2 more powers. Maybe Shrouding and another offensive power that works like a normal smite (just with a different name).
That could already be enough.
Vortex needs a boost, maybe D3+1 mortal wounds is enough already. Seems better than just making it a D2.

Hammerhand could have the rule that you can cast it 2 times per turn.
Or make it a double use Power "Hammer and Anvil". One activation for giving +1 to wound and another activation to make an enemy easier to hit or to wound.

Stratagems:
Psybolt Ammunition and Psychic Onslaught need a point reduction to 1 CP.
If you would want to go overboard you could allow them to be used 2 times per round (maybe: if you have a Brother-Captain in your Army you can select up to 2 targets for the effect).
Honour the Chapter maybe down to 2 CP?

The rest is ok, or better said: doesn't matter.
You will waste all of your few CP on Heed the Prognosticars, Psybolt, Onslaught, Only in Deaths does duty end and single die rerolls in your psychic/charge phase.
There is not much room for the rest, because you absolutely depend on the mentioned gems.

Warlord Traits:
DONT MATTER.
You pick "First to the fray".
I don't know how to fix this, because first to the fray is too important to GK to not take it.

For Crowe make him a lake the champion but ad th weapon table for the obliterators. Also make him buff troops like grandmaster and give him 6” cleansing flame ( increase in points accordingly)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry for the errors :(

What do you guys think about Paladins having iron halos? For a 4+ inv? That way with sanc or heed they would be 3+

We can't really ask for storm shields since they don't have the models for it.

Also is being able to cast each of our powers 3 times better? Or would and aura effect be better? For hammer hand, sanctuary, and our own made up power shrouding?

Lastly I don't think it's to much to ask for shrouding to be 12 inches or more. Some armies get that for free. So if we can cast it once (or three times) that's not a huge deal. It's should probably have the infantry key word though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh also, the whole idea that was brought up about having brotherhood traits is really awesome. Possibly to much to ask for. But I'll mention it.

Any ideas for that?

Nice job guys, this is really important, most competitive players consider GK to be the weakest book, and I think that most of it has to do with internal balance between choices

Example 1: melee weapons: Falchions are almost better than the alternatives in every situation
suggestions for change:
Nemesis warding stave bonus to invuln save is for all saves, not just fight phase: this allows us to get 4++ (and 3++ on GMs) saves on our characters without bringing storm shields into the equation, but at the cost of offensive capability
Nemesis for sword: give +1 invuln to the fight phase to a max of 3++. Also gives some defensive capability
NDH and falchions: leave the same, though lower points for NDH on power armor characters, at least

Example 2: Special weapons: psilencers are clearly our best option, but only because of the points efficiency, and even that is marginal
Suggestion for change
Give Psycannons "rending" again: on a roll of 6+, AP is -3 instead of -1. Alternatively, make them damage 2 or D3. With either of these changes, these will see play again
Incinerators: just need a point reduction

Example 3: Cost of units
Terminators need to be lowered to under the cost of 2 strikes. There really isnt a reason to have 1 termie when you can get 2 strikes for less... 40-41 with Storm bolter sounds about right to me
Librarians are just 3 points less than a GM... they need to be lowered by about 20-30 points (the same amount that was lowered for generic marines)
Dreads should be 5 points cheaper across the board: psychic abilities should be about 15 points, not 20
Chaplains need a massive decrease in points (for generic marines too... thats why we never see them)
techmarine: needs a huge point drop, and ability to buy without terrible servo harness
Ancients and bro champs need about 5-10 point price decrease

Other things that need improvement
Relics: Agree what has been mentioned previously, improve the liber relic to give back CPs on a 5+ or 6+
Warlord Traits: There is only one really viable option (FttF). make other ones better so the choice is harder
Improve Rites of banishment so that on a roll of 10+, damage is d3. Always 3 for deamons as before

Keep it up!