Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey.

We all know that Mortal Wounds are *everywhere*. From psychic powers to Death Guard characters farts. Magic is magic and gazes... well, your armor is not going to help against those, even though they've been telling us that Space Marines can survive in air-less environment...

But for vehicles or monsters "explosions" it just doesn't make sense.

The Tyranid monster you were fighting couldn't scratch the paint off your terminators' armor but in its death throes he suddenly kills 2 of them.
The tank of that Ork buggy explodes and takes 3 wounds off your Land Raider, when it had previously been firing Rokkits at it for 2 turns without any result.

The list goes on and on and on. To the point where it's sometimes a better strategy (for AdMech or Death Guard for example) to just send your vehicles in the middle of ennemy lines to detonate them (1CP Stratagem).

I've been thinking a lot about that recently and I just can't figure why GW chose to do it that way. Why not deal normal wounds instead of Mortal Wounds ? Why should Terminators and Orks suffer the same fate if they stand near an explosion ?

Am I the only that finds it really stupid and want it changed ?

Ork buggies never explode.

Yeah, it's a little odd, at times.

I think causing auto-wounds for most things, rather than a mortal wound, would be reasonable, though large vehicle explosions should still be mortal.

Have you ever seen an animal desperatly trying to fight back against something? An injured animal on the verge of death will throw an absolute fethfit in an attempt to drive an attacker away.

Same goes for the controlled, (possibly badly) aimed explosion of a rocket vs an uncontrolled detonation of fuel and ammunition from a vehicle

It's cool. End of discussion.

Yeah I hate he fact that vehicle explosions cause mortal wounds. I've lost a game I was about to win because 2 of his vehicles in a row blew apart ~500 points of my army, and I've won a game I shouldn't have because 2 razorbacks blew and took most of two units and all the characters around with them.
It's another thing like seize the initiative where most of the time it does nothing, and then you have a game completely flipped over because of it.

This bothers me, too, especially because they could have just stated that every model involved gets struck by a S X damage Y AP Z hit.

I think that the mortal wound spam is harmful because it hurts non-hordes more. In the example above, the number of MW is limited but the effect is way different on 5 terminators vs 20 orcs.

And please, let's not start the whole "it slows down the game" circus. You don't want a fast game if you write "Heavy 20" weapons rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
It's cool. End of discussion.

You can design to be as much as cool, and not as much as stupid and imbalanced.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
This bothers me, too, especially because they could have just stated that every model involved gets struck by a S X damage Y AP Z hit.

I think that the mortal wound spam is harmful because it hurts non-hordes more. In the example above, the number of MW is limited but the effect is way different on 5 terminators vs 20 orcs.

How will you write the rule, so that it effects 20 Orks the same as 5 terminators?

I think the idea is that the chunks coming at you are too big for armor to matter.

M.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
This bothers me, too, especially because they could have just stated that every model involved gets struck by a S X damage Y AP Z hit.

I think that the mortal wound spam is harmful because it hurts non-hordes more. In the example above, the number of MW is limited but the effect is way different on 5 terminators vs 20 orcs.

And please, let's not start the whole "it slows down the game" circus. You don't want a fast game if you write "Heavy 20" weapons rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
It's cool. End of discussion.

You can design to be as much as cool, and not as much as stupid and imbalanced.

You're aware you're playing Warhammer 40,000, right? It's cool, get over it.

pismakron wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
This bothers me, too, especially because they could have just stated that every model involved gets struck by a S X damage Y AP Z hit.

I think that the mortal wound spam is harmful because it hurts non-hordes more. In the example above, the number of MW is limited but the effect is way different on 5 terminators vs 20 orcs.

How will you write the rule, so that it effects 20 Orks the same as 5 terminators?

Every model within X, and is a S X strike like the old rules.
These mortal wounds are deadly for elite armies IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:

You're aware you're playing Warhammer 40,000, right? It's cool, get over it.

Is this sarcasm?

Not at all.

I think its more for consistency and streamlining. Mortal wounds are to simplify and speed up the game, and anything that is a "battlefield hazard" inflicts them. Plasma going off, burning inside a transport, falling out of a Valkyrie, getting hit by exterminatus bombardments, etc etc.
We already had wound/str/autowound/noarmour/etc stats for each type of "accident" in 7th ed and it was horrible. I dont want to look up a specific rule chart on the off chance a guy falls off a building. Now its consistent, he just dies. It's fine for how often these things rarely happen.

The bigger problem is how often they can be MADE to happen, with things like stratagems.

 Infantryman wrote:
I think the idea is that the chunks coming at you are too big for armor to matter.

M.

But somehow those chunks unable to dent titan's armour intentionally then finds it as easy a# paper. Armour designed to protect against weapons used to level city blocks provide no help

Let's also remember that explosions only happen on a 6 in most (if not all) cases.
Causing Mortal Wounds to nearby units in such a rare case needs to be simple. Otherwise, why bother

This is one of those cases in which GW bends fluff to suit simplicity in rules.

Having said that, I could easily see it cause automatic wounds at AP -2 or something, but at wouldn't effect units the same and wound require additional rolls for saves.
If you want to make it auto wounds with saves allowed, then explosions need to happen on 5+ or something.

-

 Elbows wrote:
Not at all.

Ymu do know don't you that if games designer isn't incompetent you can have cool, sensible and balanced rule? Only lazy incompetent ones settle fmr just cool. Why take only some when you can have it all?

I like the mortal wound mechanic because otherwise explosions tend to be a bunch of rolling for little to no result.

What it punishes most are character heavy armies. That detonating vehicle might kill a bunch of characters.

IT also fits how damaging an explosion of a vehicle really would be as opposed to previous editions where a detonating vehicle did next to nothing unless you were low T, Low save and embarked.

I think Mortal Wounds are an attempt at normalizing things that affect armies differently.

E.g. an exploding Trukk could completely cripple the Orks that rode in it and mobbed around it, whereas I think I saw like, 2 Space Marines die in vehicle explosions in all of 6th and 7th editions.

I've also thought that Mortal Wounds are an attempt to simplify the game, e.g. the Marauder Bomber's mortal wounds are essentially "roll some dice, and the enemy get hurted" which is, admittedly, way more simple than "This is a weapon, with a stat line, but only has certain very specific firing arcs (unlike every other weapon in the game), but doesn't require LOS, but also hits every model in a unit it moved over, so the rate of fire changes, unless you're a vehicle or monster, then it's 3, but we want more than 3 because that doesn't mean much once you Hit, Wound, and Save, which you also have to do after you determine what is hit by this not-a-weapon..."

Now I could see potentially making it roll a for ever model withing x" roll a D6, on a 4+ that models unit suffers 1 mortal wound, as this would make it more dangerous to hordes, than elite units.

 Nym wrote:
"explosions" it just doesn't make sense.

You should see what a shock wave and or blast pressure can do to a thing.

 Desubot wrote:

 Nym wrote:
"explosions" it just doesn't make sense.

You should see what a shock wave and or blast pressure can do to a thing.

Indeed.

Watch the 1:18 mark on this video. The shock wave is visible and extremely powerful. This was a famous incident involving a plant that made rocket fuel for NASA and was stockpiling it following the shuttle disaster when they were all grounded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRyfMM2FTlk

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yeah I hate he fact that vehicle explosions cause mortal wounds. I've lost a game I was about to win because 2 of his vehicles in a row blew apart ~500 points of my army, and I've won a game I shouldn't have because 2 razorbacks blew and took most of two units and all the characters around with them.
It's another thing like seize the initiative where most of the time it does nothing, and then you have a game completely flipped over because of it.

Sounds more like he had you wounded quite well and that the vehicles didn't actually cause 500 points of damage.

Here's the thing, too - you know the risks from explosions.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
This bothers me, too, especially because they could have just stated that every model involved gets struck by a S X damage Y AP Z hit.

I think that the mortal wound spam is harmful because it hurts non-hordes more. In the example above, the number of MW is limited but the effect is way different on 5 terminators vs 20 orcs.

How will you write the rule, so that it effects 20 Orks the same as 5 terminators?

Every model within X, and is a S X strike like the old rules.

That does not affect Orks the same as Terminators. Unless you think it should be S5 AP-4 hits or something?

Why not say it automatically wounds but models still get their armor/invulnerable saves? Is that really so hard?

 amanita wrote:
Why not say it automatically wounds but models still get their armor/invulnerable saves? Is that really so hard?

Because it hurts orcs more than it hurts terminators. Are you reading the thread?

 Desubot wrote:
You should see what a shock wave and or blast pressure can do to a thing

You should see what Terminator armor does against shock waves...

My point is : it's stupid that explosions from rockets and missiles allow an armor save, while the explosion of a vehicle doesn't.

Make it : "On a 6, every unit in a 6" radius suffers 2d6 wounds" and let models take an armor save. This way no-armor models will get blasted and models with a crazy thick armor will get a chance to survive.

 Nym wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
You should see what a shock wave and or blast pressure can do to a thing

You should see what Terminator armor does against shock waves...

My point is : it's stupid that explosions from rockets and missiles allow an armor save, while the explosion of a vehicle doesn't.

Make it : "On a 6, every unit in a 6" radius suffers 2d6 wounds" and let models take an armor save. This way no-armor models will get blasted and models with a crazy thick armor will get a chance to survive.

You do realize that physics means that your innards can be pulverized without the armour being affected at all, right? Like, you could throw a knight dressed in adamantine plate armour out of a plane, and the armour will be fine while the poor gentleman inside is leaking out between the joints...

tneva82 wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
I think the idea is that the chunks coming at you are too big for armor to matter.

M.

But somehow those chunks unable to dent titan's armour intentionally then finds it as easy a# paper. Armour designed to protect against weapons used to level city blocks provide no help

True, that. Maybe the Vehicle keyword should permit a save.

M.

It's worth noting that Titans do, in fact, get a save against Mortal Wounds. Just sayin'.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yeah I hate he fact that vehicle explosions cause mortal wounds. I've lost a game I was about to win because 2 of his vehicles in a row blew apart ~500 points of my army, and I've won a game I shouldn't have because 2 razorbacks blew and took most of two units and all the characters around with them.
It's another thing like seize the initiative where most of the time it does nothing, and then you have a game completely flipped over because of it.

Sounds more like he had you wounded quite well and that the vehicles didn't actually cause 500 points of damage.

Here's the thing, too - you know the risks from explosions.

Nope. You're dead wrong. I had 3 unhurt 5 man asm squads with 2x plasma pistol each being fodder for 3 unwounded jump libbies. Closer to 600 points. It was bottom of turn 4, and the other 70% of my army had decimated his vehicles from range, and were in my backfield and midfield. I have the jump force get in on a vehicle on his backfield objective. It dies, blows, and takes out 3 asm from each squad and hits each libby for 2 damage. His turn he moves his last working vehicle, a small group of obsec troops, and his token warlord into range to claim the objective. My turn, I kill the obsec troops, then kill the vehicle, it blows, all 3 libbies and all the remaining asm die, his WL lives thanks to being previously unwounded, game ends, he wins by first blood since we both had our own backfield objectives.

We both agreed that he was dead to rights, and only the ludicrously lethal explosions turned his major loss into a minor win. He didn't even have CP left to fish for it, they just happened. And I never got any kind of roll during the entire process. Felt just like when stomps and D weapons would just roll a 6 and that was it. The explosions covered the entire area around the objective as well, so I couldn't hold anyone back anyway. They'd be just as useless over there as they were dead, which is NOT contesting the objective. Literally just lost to a ~3% combined chance occurence happening.

Similar situation when I was on the other side. I was losing ground, and threw razorbacks in front of my objective to slow him down. A few sixes later he was effectively minus an army, and I was free to redirect some survivors into linebreaking and objective grabbing that would've been hunted down after the razors died. This was just as un-fun, because I had zero agency in it. It's like winning because your opponent had a stroke and died at the table.