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 EnTyme wrote:
Yeah. Use hyperbole. That'll make people sympathize with your argument.

exactly how is it hyperbole? There exist multiple units in this game that you are intended to take many of who have smite as a primary source of damage. Thousand Sons Rubrics and Terminators are the basic troops and elites of the army and now effectively will not have access to smite, because you're obviously never going to use it until you've done your smites from all your HQ units. Then, you'll get to your Aspiring Sorcerors and go "Hmm, I have a 24% chance of causing a single mortal wound, and a 6% chance of getting a perils of the warp which will instantly cause 2D3 mortal wounds to this squad of expensive single-wound MEQ models. Gwarsh, I wonder what I'll do?"

Pink Horrors? Smite on 1d6. That means you can either A) attempt to use it twice from 2 different units of horrors, and start your HQs full power smites on a 7 to cast, or B) just ignore the smite rule that they pay points for and never use it.

Gray Knights? Everything, absolutely everything in the codex, has and pays for access to the smite power.

This change completely dumps on three armies which are not being seen in tournaments and fixes a problem skew build that hasn't actually proven to be a problem. Where are the fifteen weirdboy lists dominating top tables? ten spiritseer lists? Oh no, wait, it's Magnus nuking people from orbit with 2d6 damage smites that cast on 3s, which this does not at all address.

any psychic change that affects the guy playing the list with pink horrors and rubrics and does nothing to impede the guy taking magnus morty 60 brims and changeling and saying "yep, list's done!" is a stupid psychic change.

the_scotsman wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Yeah. Use hyperbole. That'll make people sympathize with your argument.

exactly how is it hyperbole? There exist multiple units in this game that you are intended to take many of who have smite as a primary source of damage. Thousand Sons Rubrics and Terminators are the basic troops and elites of the army and now effectively will not have access to smite, because you're obviously never going to use it until you've done your smites from all your HQ units. Then, you'll get to your Aspiring Sorcerors and go "Hmm, I have a 24% chance of causing a single mortal wound, and a 6% chance of getting a perils of the warp which will instantly cause 2D3 mortal wounds to this squad of expensive single-wound MEQ models. Gwarsh, I wonder what I'll do?"

Pink Horrors? Smite on 1d6. That means you can either A) attempt to use it twice from 2 different units of horrors, and start your HQs full power smites on a 7 to cast, or B) just ignore the smite rule that they pay points for and never use it.

Gray Knights? Everything, absolutely everything in the codex, has and pays for access to the smite power.

This change completely dumps on three armies which are not being seen in tournaments and fixes a problem skew build that hasn't actually proven to be a problem. Where are the fifteen weirdboy lists dominating top tables? ten spiritseer lists? Oh no, wait, it's Magnus nuking people from orbit with 2d6 damage smites that cast on 3s, which this does not at all address.

any psychic change that affects the guy playing the list with pink horrors and rubrics and does nothing to impede the guy taking magnus morty 60 brims and changeling and saying "yep, list's done!" is a stupid psychic change.

Quoted for justice, this rule does nothing to stop what's really broken in the game

And smite is the only thing those units have? Those are the only units your codex has access to? It sounds more like your issue is that the list you've been running was spammy and now you have to change it. That's what happens when you spam a unit. That unit gets nerfed and you have to adjust.


*Edit* I do want to admit that I don't have Index: Chaos, but I am aware that T-Sons have access to units from Chaos Marines. You're telling me you can't find some offense in that codex? As far as Tzeentch daemons go, maybe wait until you get your codex next month and see what your army abilities and artifacts are going to be before you hit that panic button?

 EnTyme wrote:
Or take a more balanced list that doesn't rely entirely on psychic powers for damage.

So I should just stop playing Tzeentch, then? Horrors become basically worthless with this change, and Thousand Sons don't fare much better. And since Rubric Marines and Scarab Terminators can't take high-strength weapons like lascannons, they kinda have to rely on Smite. High-magic armies SHOULD be a viable option, since they're not without risk (Perils of the Warp, the ability to deny, relatively soft and expensive characters).

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
The Smite change tells me that Smite isn't meant to be your primary offensive ability regardless of which army you're running.

Then do not limit other psychic powers to only one attempt per Phase, just extend the BETA Smite rule to each power (with the exception that identical powers do not stack) and magically you won't have psykers being mortal wound batteries (they can only cast Smite after all)

I don't think any duplicate casting of other spells is a good idea. You're easily going to trip into broken combo territory even with the negatives.

Not really if you can't cast the same power on the same unit

Uhhhh no. I would actively feel bad about having Mephiston and at least two Libby dreads jumping across the board turn 1 with the easy to cast wings power alongside the DC free move strat putting them in easy charge range and SG dropping in for a 3d6 easily makeable charge. And then each of those libbies would try to unleash rage the two big units coming in. That would be absolutely unsettling, and that's just the first thing off the top of my head.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
The Smite change tells me that Smite isn't meant to be your primary offensive ability regardless of which army you're running.

Then do not limit other psychic powers to only one attempt per Phase, just extend the BETA Smite rule to each power (with the exception that identical powers do not stack) and magically you won't have psykers being mortal wound batteries (they can only cast Smite after all)

I don't think any duplicate casting of other spells is a good idea. You're easily going to trip into broken combo territory even with the negatives.

Not really if you can't cast the same power on the same unit

Uhhhh no. I would actively feel bad about having Mephiston and at least two Libby dreads jumping across the board turn 1 with the easy to cast wings power alongside the DC free move strat putting them in easy charge range and SG dropping in for a 3d6 easily makeable charge. And then each of those libbies would try to unleash rage the two big units coming in. That would be absolutely unsettling, and that's just the first thing off the top of my head.

This list costs a gakload just to get rekt by any disposable screen your opponent may have

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
The Smite change tells me that Smite isn't meant to be your primary offensive ability regardless of which army you're running.

Then do not limit other psychic powers to only one attempt per Phase, just extend the BETA Smite rule to each power (with the exception that identical powers do not stack) and magically you won't have psykers being mortal wound batteries (they can only cast Smite after all)

I don't think any duplicate casting of other spells is a good idea. You're easily going to trip into broken combo territory even with the negatives.

Not really if you can't cast the same power on the same unit

Uhhhh no. I would actively feel bad about having Mephiston and at least two Libby dreads jumping across the board turn 1 with the easy to cast wings power alongside the DC free move strat putting them in easy charge range and SG dropping in for a 3d6 easily makeable charge. And then each of those libbies would try to unleash rage the two big units coming in. That would be absolutely unsettling, and that's just the first thing off the top of my head.

This list costs a gakload just to get rekt by any disposable screen your opponent may have

Not every army has screens, and not every LGS player wants to run the same old top tier archetype list every game. Also forlorn fury DC can hop right past frontline screens. Also also hitting the screens turn 1 and actually breaking through them is a victory in progress. Screenhammer armies generally need their screens to tank 2 turns.

 EnTyme wrote:
And smite is the only thing those units have? Those are the only units your codex has access to? It sounds more like your issue is that the list you've been running was spammy and now you have to change it. That's what happens when you spam a unit. That unit gets nerfed and you have to adjust.


*Edit* I do want to admit that I don't have Index: Chaos, but I am aware that T-Sons have access to units from Chaos Marines. You're telling me you can't find some offense in that codex? As far as Tzeentch daemons go, maybe wait until you get your codex next month and see what your army abilities and artifacts are going to be before you hit that panic button?

How is taking BASIC TROOP CHOISE of your faction spammy???

"Okay I'll take 3 squads of tactical marines. Oooh the spam the spam!"

Or howabout this: For every unit firing heavy weapon after first you suffer -1 to hit. Have fun with your IG heavy support squad. After all they have other things like WS4+ and A1 so surely it's still okay!

Depending on player feedback, these rules may very well make their way into the first big FAQ update in March, and later, in Chapter Approved itself.

If you would like to get in touch with your thoughts on these new rules after trying them out or pose other questions you’d like us to consider for the next FAQ document, drop us an email: 40KFAQ@gwplc.com

You could say, I dunno, try the new Smite rule without the limit on small smites and give GW some feedback. Or you could feign outrage on the internet. Your choice.

tneva82 wrote:


How is taking BASIC TROOP CHOISE of your faction spammy???

"Okay I'll take 3 squads of tactical marines. Oooh the spam the spam!"

Or howabout this: For every unit firing heavy weapon after first you suffer -1 to hit. Have fun with your IG heavy support squad. After all they have other things like WS4+ and A1 so surely it's still okay!

How is taking them for the express purpose of all using a single ability not spammy? Troops are generally taken to be objective holders and blockers, not your primary means of attack. Is an aspiring sorcerer a requirement for the unit or a unit upgrade? If it's an upgrade, maybe save those points so you can take something else. Again, I don't have the index, so I'm not sure what your options are, but I guarantee that smite isn't the only offensive option available to the army.

How about instead of warring online just feed back to GW? Politely. In about two pages it seems there are two factions likely to suffer most from the change - let GW know.

Rubric Marines are much more than Smite batteries. They are pretty darn resilient and have really nasty bolters. Their Aspiring Sorcerers can get some moderately useful power options to compliment them as well. If they get to smite, great! If not, then still a tough lil unit that hurts Elite squads.

Grey Knights are in a similar boat, but much less resilient and the change pushes them to be more Melee oriented.

Horrors are atleast cheap(ish) and have some form of shooting to rely on. (Outside of Brims, who were really just cheap wound barriers anyway)

Eldar Spiritseers (and DEFINITELY Warlocks) have much more useful powers that they can be casting. Bonesingers do become even more expensive for what they do, though.

It is overall a good mechanic to help factions with zero Psy resistance have a little more durability.

If they do go with that ruling on the smite then they should just add a line that says “ only applies to units using the version of smite that can do d3 wounds on a standard casting roll of 5+ Or d6 on a 11+)

However though I feel this is a bandaid towards poor army development with Psykers in mind.

Each full Psyker army should have its normal 6 powers list and 6 or even 3 powers for its lesser caster. Small buffs or debuffs to give the minicasters something to do other than cast smite.

For thousand sons these could be squad based powers such as -2 to anyone charging that unit or fire overwatch at 5+ instead of 6. Small things that can help the squad. Same for grey knights and tseentch demons.

Ha ha, oh yeah, baby smite is too powerful and needs to be reigned in. Just look at all the overwhelmingly good GK and TS lists sweeping the meta. Yup, I can't think of anything more broken than wounds that are virtually unsavable.

(Glances at the 1000 points of 54 plasma shots sitting on the desk right now)

Nope. Nothing more terrifying that the 6 mortal wounds a turn an entire GK army can dish out.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Depending on player feedback, these rules may very well make their way into the first big FAQ update in March, and later, in Chapter Approved itself.

If you would like to get in touch with your thoughts on these new rules after trying them out or pose other questions you’d like us to consider for the next FAQ document, drop us an email: 40KFAQ@gwplc.com

You could say, I dunno, try the new Smite rule without the limit on small smites and give GW some feedback. Or you could feign outrage on the internet. Your choice.

If you can get redress for your grievances through discussion how can you become a martyr for a discriminated minority? Seriously think before you post.

The real headline:

"Whenever we release a Codex...We will release an errata shortly after!"

Games Workshop finally admits they intentionally release crappy rules. This is my favorite moment from 2017. Much better than even the "fake news" line.

Reading comments elsewhere has me laugh. People complained that Chapter Approved did nothing to address Smite. Now GW has and people complain that they changed smite.

 Tokhuah wrote:
The real headline:

"Whenever we release a Codex...We will release an errata shortly after!"

Games Workshop finally admits they intentionally release crappy rules. This is my favorite moment from 2017. Much better than even the "fake news" line.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't mean that. An errata is a correction of a published work detected too late to realistically be addressed.

It also doesn't say that. It states this:

1: Codex Errata

A couple of weeks after the release of every codex and Chapter Approved book, we’ll review all the questions and comments we’ve received to see if there’s a need for an errata. If that’s the case, we’ll get one out quick smartish! These will address any ambiguities or issues that might have cropped up, such as how new rules and Stratagems might interact in certain edge cases, or when there is a genuine error in one of the rules that stop it from functioning as intended.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Or take a more balanced list that doesn't rely entirely on psychic powers for damage.

So I should just stop playing Tzeentch, then? Horrors become basically worthless with this change, and Thousand Sons don't fare much better. And since Rubric Marines and Scarab Terminators can't take high-strength weapons like lascannons, they kinda have to rely on Smite. High-magic armies SHOULD be a viable option, since they're not without risk (Perils of the Warp, the ability to deny, relatively soft and expensive characters).

Yeah I'm sure that mixed Tzeentch, one of the most demonstrably strongest armies in the game right now, has become garbage because the cheap troops no longer ignore Armor and Invulns. That's not hyperbole at all.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tokhuah wrote:
The real headline:

"Whenever we release a Codex...We will release an errata shortly after!"

Games Workshop finally admits they intentionally release crappy rules. This is my favorite moment from 2017. Much better than even the "fake news" line.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't mean that. An errata is a correction of a published work detected too late to realistically be addressed.

It also doesn't say that. It states this:

1: Codex Errata

A couple of weeks after the release of every codex and Chapter Approved book, we’ll review all the questions and comments we’ve received to see if there’s a need for an errata. If that’s the case, we’ll get one out quick smartish! These will address any ambiguities or issues that might have cropped up, such as how new rules and Stratagems might interact in certain edge cases, or when there is a genuine error in one of the rules that stop it from functioning as intended.

Now you are just rules lawyering bad rules, which makes you a bad lawyer...

GW does literally say that:

 Tokhuah wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tokhuah wrote:
The real headline:

"Whenever we release a Codex...We will release an errata shortly after!"

Games Workshop finally admits they intentionally release crappy rules. This is my favorite moment from 2017. Much better than even the "fake news" line.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't mean that. An errata is a correction of a published work detected too late to realistically be addressed.

It also doesn't say that. It states this:

1: Codex Errata

A couple of weeks after the release of every codex and Chapter Approved book, we’ll review all the questions and comments we’ve received to see if there’s a need for an errata. If that’s the case, we’ll get one out quick smartish! These will address any ambiguities or issues that might have cropped up, such as how new rules and Stratagems might interact in certain edge cases, or when there is a genuine error in one of the rules that stop it from functioning as intended.

Now you are just rules lawyering bad rules, which makes you a bad lawyer...

GW does literally say that:

Spoiler:

Your argument is that GW purposely puts out bad rules. Nothing about publishing an errata indicates that is the case.

Also, nice ad hominem to start with.

Requizen wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Or take a more balanced list that doesn't rely entirely on psychic powers for damage.

So I should just stop playing Tzeentch, then? Horrors become basically worthless with this change, and Thousand Sons don't fare much better. And since Rubric Marines and Scarab Terminators can't take high-strength weapons like lascannons, they kinda have to rely on Smite. High-magic armies SHOULD be a viable option, since they're not without risk (Perils of the Warp, the ability to deny, relatively soft and expensive characters).

Yeah I'm sure that mixed Tzeentch, one of the most demonstrably strongest armies in the game right now, has become garbage because the cheap troops no longer ignore Armor and Invulns. That's not hyperbole at all.

I'm mean to tbf, the "Mixed Tzeentch" the was demonstratably one of the strongest armies was the Changeling, as many Malefic Lords you could take, Magnus and and then as many BrimHorrors as you can comfortable field as meat shields, with Exalted Flamers and Tzeentch Heralds for further support.

Malefic Lords were already hit hard in CA by increasing to a crazy 80pts, and aside from Magnus and the Exalted Flamers the only way this list dealt damage was through Smite.
Does it kill Brims? No, no one ever took them for Smite since the Smite Nerf they received anyway, all this does it ensure that you don't even attempt to use that ability anymore rather than it just being a bonus.

However Manfed von Drakken wasn't talking about Tzeentch Daemons, he was talking about Thousand Sons and their expensive Rubric Marines that aren't taken anyway. Literally kicking them while they are down and further concreting the use of Cultists over Rubrics, or just not taking the army at all and only using Magnus like always.

Having a schedule for rules changes is nice if you don't want to get caught out changing an army list a week before a tournament because an FAQ suddenly appeared online. How do you think list building will be affected by the beta rules? Will players refrain from using those legal units because everyone will know they're not supposed to be played in the current incarnation (thus cheapening any victories) or will players use more of those units while they still can?

I would hope TOs would give players fair warning as to whether or not the beta rules will be enforced and the tournament.

Eh. Don't like the beta rules. Not the specific rules, but the idea. I remember too well the 'trial rules' at the end of third- it made a mess out of what people were playing, as people wanted to cherry pick the ruleset for what benefited them the most and only play with those.

Stick to a clean ruleset.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tokhuah wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tokhuah wrote:
The real headline:

"Whenever we release a Codex...We will release an errata shortly after!"

Games Workshop finally admits they intentionally release crappy rules. This is my favorite moment from 2017. Much better than even the "fake news" line.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't mean that. An errata is a correction of a published work detected too late to realistically be addressed.

It also doesn't say that. It states this:

1: Codex Errata

A couple of weeks after the release of every codex and Chapter Approved book, we’ll review all the questions and comments we’ve received to see if there’s a need for an errata. If that’s the case, we’ll get one out quick smartish! These will address any ambiguities or issues that might have cropped up, such as how new rules and Stratagems might interact in certain edge cases, or when there is a genuine error in one of the rules that stop it from functioning as intended.

Now you are just rules lawyering bad rules, which makes you a bad lawyer...

GW does literally say that:

Spoiler:

Your argument is that GW purposely puts out bad rules. Nothing about publishing an errata indicates that is the case.

Also, nice ad hominem to start with.

It is all in fun so do not take my stuff to serious. I am just trying to RAW GWs RAI.

 EnTyme wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


How is taking BASIC TROOP CHOISE of your faction spammy???

"Okay I'll take 3 squads of tactical marines. Oooh the spam the spam!"

Or howabout this: For every unit firing heavy weapon after first you suffer -1 to hit. Have fun with your IG heavy support squad. After all they have other things like WS4+ and A1 so surely it's still okay!

How is taking them for the express purpose of all using a single ability not spammy? Troops are generally taken to be objective holders and blockers, not your primary means of attack. Is an aspiring sorcerer a requirement for the unit or a unit upgrade? If it's an upgrade, maybe save those points so you can take something else. Again, I don't have the index, so I'm not sure what your options are, but I guarantee that smite isn't the only offensive option available to the army.

To be perfectly blunt, you need to stop talking about an army you have zero knowledge of. The Aspiring Sorcerer is a required part of the Rubric squad that was already seen as a tax model (you'd almost always rather just have another Rubric) before this change.

Yeah, this "get gud scrub" mentality exhibited in the face of clear and comprimising design changes to several underpowered armies are just toxicly degenerative.
It doesn't help. And it certainly looks ridiculous when the person displaying the behavior is so uninformed on the topic they are talking about.
My friend plays Grey Knights, and with these new rules, a normal smite power would be fine. Army would still probably be weak, but not desperately so.
Same for 1k Sons.
Daemons just need something different.

Yeah from what I gather, saying Aspiring sorcerors are spamming Smite is like saying Space Marine sergeants are spamming Bolt pistols- it is a standard part of their damage output, and they are costed with it as their primary attack.

Voss wrote:
Eh. Don't like the beta rules. Not the specific rules, but the idea. I remember too well the 'trial rules' at the end of third- it made a mess out of what people were playing, as people wanted to cherry pick the ruleset for what benefited them the most and only play with those.

Stick to a clean ruleset.

Which clean ruleset would that be? The current state is anything but "clean". Maybe their new schedule will make it better, we'll see.