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If people are truly intent on giving GW meaningful feedback on this, they should not only try out the Beta Smite rules, but also other lesser (or greater) variations:

Variant 1: For every SUCCESSFUL smite, reduce the roll by -1.
Variant 2+: Cap the reduction at -X.

or to make Smite even less powerful (...but why?)
Variant A+: You may only cast Smite up to X times per turn.

Try to get games in against armies with lots of psykers, see where the balance falls (since armies with fewer psykers probably aren't going to hit that high of a smite penalty anyway - at least a few other powers will be worth more).

This seems, facially, a bit heavy of a nerf to psyker heavy armies (which would be better balanced through points anyway, given how much certain armies are entirely reliant on smite for some target types). I'd rather see the penalty capped at something reasonable like -3, so no psyker is ever truly without a chance of contributing... but also giving psyker spam a diminishing return.

That would preferrably come with a boost to armies that are thematically and mechanically reliant on psyker spam, like GK, TS, some Daemons, etc.

Hmmm, to expand, perhaps further smites will only give you 1 Mortal Wound? Keeps the smite abuse down, while letting the lesser smiters carry on as usual.

Neronoxx wrote:
Yeah, this "get gud scrub" mentality exhibited in the face of clear and comprimising design changes to several underpowered armies are just toxicly degenerative.
It doesn't help. And it certainly looks ridiculous when the person displaying the behavior is so uninformed on the topic they are talking about.
My friend plays Grey Knights, and with these new rules, a normal smite power would be fine. Army would still probably be weak, but not desperately so.
Same for 1k Sons.
Daemons just need something different.

I'm not say "get gud scrub", I'm saying calm down and look at your entire selection of options before you decide one rule change completely destroys any hope of ever being competitive again. If smite is literally your only option for offense, the problem isn't with the ability, its with the army. If it's literally the only option you can take, then you need more options. That principle isn't just for GK, T-sons and Tzeentch daemons. If any army can be completely gimped by a single rule change, that army needs to be changed.

For all those Thousand Sons and Tzeentch players GW have already let slip in the comments on Facebook that their codexes will have a loophole for the new Smite rule

 Kirasu wrote:

Voss wrote:
Eh. Don't like the beta rules. Not the specific rules, but the idea. I remember too well the 'trial rules' at the end of third- it made a mess out of what people were playing, as people wanted to cherry pick the ruleset for what benefited them the most and only play with those.

Stick to a clean ruleset.

Which clean ruleset would that be? The current state is anything but "clean". Maybe their new schedule will make it better, we'll see.

Clean in the sense of not putting out more and more variants, optionals and nonsense. If they were sticking to a schedule that would be one thing, but they're just going to throw out random junk in addition to March, September and Pay-For-December.
But the base rules are also pretty clean in general. They don't always work well, but there is surprisingly little confusion outside the ridiculous number of super special snowflake rules in the codexes. But that's a deliberate design choice that isn't fixable until another edition happens.

 Rolsheen wrote:
For all those Thousand Sons and Tzeentch players GW have already let slip in the comments on Facebook that their codexes will have a loophole for the new Smite rule

Could you pull out the exact quote? I'm searching for it right now and haven't found anything that would indicate as such beyond making it clear that they are aware of the problems this rule gives to armies that are designed to rely on smite.

I would like to know how GW might do major rule changes...or if we need to wait for 9th for these.

Say GW saw the light and realized how bad free hit-and-run is for the game. What can they do about it? Do they have the guts to actually change a significant portion of the core rules? If they do, would they re-print the BRB with the changes?

 JimOnMars wrote:
I would like to know how GW might do major rule changes...or if we need to wait for 9th for these.

Say GW saw the light and realized how bad free hit-and-run is for the game. What can they do about it? Do they have the guts to actually change a significant portion of the core rules? If they do, would they re-print the BRB with the changes?

Really, GW just needs to get with the times, stop half-assing things, and embrace what a 'living ruleset' really means. Free (subscription-based could also work, although I wouldn't care for it, GW doesn't have enough quality in their writing to justify one), digital publication that is regularly updated with meticulous documentation, and companion articles with every major shift explaining the implications, implementation, and rationale behind these shifts.

 Rolsheen wrote:
For all those Thousand Sons and Tzeentch players GW have already let slip in the comments on Facebook that their codexes will have a loophole for the new Smite rule

If this is true, then I hope they errata GK to have the same loophole.

 JimOnMars wrote:
I would like to know how GW might do major rule changes...or if we need to wait for 9th for these.

Say GW saw the light and realized how bad free hit-and-run is for the game. What can they do about it? Do they have the guts to actually change a significant portion of the core rules? If they do, would they re-print the BRB with the changes?

You could be in for a long wait, looking at the way they are scheduling updates, the 9th is at least 5 years away. That is if they even have any intention to move from 8th.

Anyway, i mailed GW with my concerns about the new smite rules and proposed that the rule does not apply to all the models that have rules influencing Smite (From gray knights to Zoanthropes). This would actually give Warlocks a role!

 Fafnir wrote:
Really, GW just needs to get with the times, stop half-assing things, and embrace what a 'living ruleset' really means.

As long as they're still selling AUD$70 hardbacks, that'll never stop.

 EnTyme wrote:
I'm not say "get gud scrub", I'm saying calm down and look at your entire selection of options before you decide one rule change completely destroys any hope of ever being competitive again. If smite is literally your only option for offense, the problem isn't with the ability, its with the army. If it's literally the only option you can take, then you need more options. That principle isn't just for GK, T-sons and Tzeentch daemons. If any army can be completely gimped by a single rule change, that army needs to be changed.

Problem here being tsons have it on their all units. It's not much avoiding something you have on all your units AND you paid for them. Their point costs are based on being able to cast smite. Now they pay same price for less use. This is OBVIOUSLY nerf to them. Were tson armies overpowered smashing their enemies with basic troop choices at will? If they weren't too good for points then guess what? They are now either too weak for points(if they were just right) or even weaker(if they already were weak for their points). Only way to avoid this is take max 1-2 tson units in your army to use smite and then rest for non-tson units. So tson army died. Individual tson unit or two might still be worth it but only in chaos soup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
I would like to know how GW might do major rule changes...or if we need to wait for 9th for these.

Say GW saw the light and realized how bad free hit-and-run is for the game. What can they do about it? Do they have the guts to actually change a significant portion of the core rules? If they do, would they re-print the BRB with the changes?

You could be in for a long wait, looking at the way they are scheduling updates, the 9th is at least 5 years away. That is if they even have any intention to move from 8th.

Anyway, i mailed GW with my concerns about the new smite rules and proposed that the rule does not apply to all the models that have rules influencing Smite (From gray knights to Zoanthropes). This would actually give Warlocks a role!

Based on what? Current schedule is more like edition per 2 years and GW has just INCREASED their codex release cycle removing that barrier from slowing down their update schedule! They could this way go for yearly edition if they wanted. Def not 5 years in any case.

Spoletta wrote:

Anyway, i mailed GW with my concerns about the new smite rules and proposed that the rule does not apply to all the models that have rules influencing Smite (From gray knights to Zoanthropes). This would actually give Warlocks a role!

Why would zoanthropes need protecting from the Smite beta rule? Nids already have crazy amounts of mortal wounds to throw around, they don't need multiple zoanthrope units chucking smite around without penalty. Neurothropes already have re-rolls of 1 on casting rolls, so they should get smite off fairly reliably even with the new penalty. And if the various 'thropes ignore the new rule, you can then start casting from the base cost of smite with everything else in the nids list with access to smite, which is quite a lot. You're the controlling player, if you have units that specifically benefit from smite then use them to cast it first. I can't comment on Grey Knights, I know nothing about them. It does seem that they will suffer from it big time. Nids certainly won't struggle because of it.

Yellabelly wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Anyway, i mailed GW with my concerns about the new smite rules and proposed that the rule does not apply to all the models that have rules influencing Smite (From gray knights to Zoanthropes). This would actually give Warlocks a role!

Why would zoanthropes need protecting from the Smite beta rule? Nids already have crazy amounts of mortal wounds to throw around, they don't need multiple zoanthrope units chucking smite around without penalty. Neurothropes already have re-rolls of 1 on casting rolls, so they should get smite off fairly reliably even with the new penalty. And if the various 'thropes ignore the new rule, you can then start casting from the base cost of smite with everything else in the nids list with access to smite, which is quite a lot. You're the controlling player, if you have units that specifically benefit from smite then use them to cast it first. I can't comment on Grey Knights, I know nothing about them. It does seem that they will suffer from it big time. Nids certainly won't struggle because of it.

I'm just including all units/models that work around the concept of smite, zoans being one of them.

Currently GW has no intention to make a 9th edition. The release schedule committed to works best if they *don't* change editions. Obviously they could change their minds at any point, didn't intend any edition etc. etc. but this looks like a long-term commitment to this ruleset. They can release an updated 8.x Rulebook with changes included after a year or so, do iterative Codexes and Chapter Approved releases and generate a pile of revenue even before making new models. I think they've seen the sense in continuity for profit as well as for the player base!

tneva82 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
I would like to know how GW might do major rule changes...or if we need to wait for 9th for these.

Say GW saw the light and realized how bad free hit-and-run is for the game. What can they do about it? Do they have the guts to actually change a significant portion of the core rules? If they do, would they re-print the BRB with the changes?

You could be in for a long wait, looking at the way they are scheduling updates, the 9th is at least 5 years away. That is if they even have any intention to move from 8th.

Anyway, i mailed GW with my concerns about the new smite rules and proposed that the rule does not apply to all the models that have rules influencing Smite (From gray knights to Zoanthropes). This would actually give Warlocks a role!

Based on what? Current schedule is more like edition per 2 years and GW has just INCREASED their codex release cycle removing that barrier from slowing down their update schedule! They could this way go for yearly edition if they wanted. Def not 5 years in any case.

They have invested too much money now in estabilishing this cycle of FAQs and CA, so that they can intervene on the game without having to go trough an edition change and still milk us an even greater amount of money. You can bet that they intend to have a return on that investment, which means that 9th isn't even on the horizon. Sit tight and confortable, 8th edition is a long ride.

Indeed. There's a reason they refer to it as 'the new Warhammer 40,000' internally and not '8th edition'. They've mentioned it several times on the Twitch stream interviews that it's a step change in how they do things. They need to commit to it now as about-facing and returning to editions as a way of updating would waste a tonne of work and newfound consumer confidence.

tneva82 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I'm not say "get gud scrub", I'm saying calm down and look at your entire selection of options before you decide one rule change completely destroys any hope of ever being competitive again. If smite is literally your only option for offense, the problem isn't with the ability, its with the army. If it's literally the only option you can take, then you need more options. That principle isn't just for GK, T-sons and Tzeentch daemons. If any army can be completely gimped by a single rule change, that army needs to be changed.

Problem here being tsons have it on their all units. It's not much avoiding something you have on all your units AND you paid for them. Their point costs are based on being able to cast smite. Now they pay same price for less use. This is OBVIOUSLY nerf to them. Were tson armies overpowered smashing their enemies with basic troop choices at will? If they weren't too good for points then guess what? They are now either too weak for points(if they were just right) or even weaker(if they already were weak for their points). Only way to avoid this is take max 1-2 tson units in your army to use smite and then rest for non-tson units. So tson army died. Individual tson unit or two might still be worth it but only in chaos soup.

All your unique units may have Smite, but you still have access to general Chaos units that don't. Hopefully the eventual codex (Tsons got points updates in CA, so I wouldn't expect a codex before Q2) will give your army a work around for this rule, but until then, you can be more competitive by using some general CSM units to supplement your Rubrics and Sorcerers.

 EnTyme wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I'm not say "get gud scrub", I'm saying calm down and look at your entire selection of options before you decide one rule change completely destroys any hope of ever being competitive again. If smite is literally your only option for offense, the problem isn't with the ability, its with the army. If it's literally the only option you can take, then you need more options. That principle isn't just for GK, T-sons and Tzeentch daemons. If any army can be completely gimped by a single rule change, that army needs to be changed.

Problem here being tsons have it on their all units. It's not much avoiding something you have on all your units AND you paid for them. Their point costs are based on being able to cast smite. Now they pay same price for less use. This is OBVIOUSLY nerf to them. Were tson armies overpowered smashing their enemies with basic troop choices at will? If they weren't too good for points then guess what? They are now either too weak for points(if they were just right) or even weaker(if they already were weak for their points). Only way to avoid this is take max 1-2 tson units in your army to use smite and then rest for non-tson units. So tson army died. Individual tson unit or two might still be worth it but only in chaos soup.

All your unique units may have Smite, but you still have access to general Chaos units that don't. Hopefully the eventual codex (Tsons got points updates in CA, so I wouldn't expect a codex before Q2) will give your army a work around for this rule, but until then, you can be more competitive by using some general CSM units to supplement your Rubrics and Sorcerers.

Sorry EnTyme, again, you're incorrect, and I think it would be better that you not speak about Thousand Sons when you don't know their rules (my goal is to say this with the utmost respect and politeness; I hope I've achieved that). Thousand Sons updates in CA were simply reprints of previous FAQ updates. Additionally, it is likely that Thousand Sons will not have access to a number of the general CSM units that they would need for anti-tank (Havocs, Obliterators, etc.) based on what Death Guard got in their codex. Of course, the Thousand Sons range is smaller than the Death Guard range, so they may take that into account, but we'll see.

 EnTyme wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I'm not say "get gud scrub", I'm saying calm down and look at your entire selection of options before you decide one rule change completely destroys any hope of ever being competitive again. If smite is literally your only option for offense, the problem isn't with the ability, its with the army. If it's literally the only option you can take, then you need more options. That principle isn't just for GK, T-sons and Tzeentch daemons. If any army can be completely gimped by a single rule change, that army needs to be changed.

Problem here being tsons have it on their all units. It's not much avoiding something you have on all your units AND you paid for them. Their point costs are based on being able to cast smite. Now they pay same price for less use. This is OBVIOUSLY nerf to them. Were tson armies overpowered smashing their enemies with basic troop choices at will? If they weren't too good for points then guess what? They are now either too weak for points(if they were just right) or even weaker(if they already were weak for their points). Only way to avoid this is take max 1-2 tson units in your army to use smite and then rest for non-tson units. So tson army died. Individual tson unit or two might still be worth it but only in chaos soup.

All your unique units may have Smite, but you still have access to general Chaos units that don't. Hopefully the eventual codex (Tsons got points updates in CA, so I wouldn't expect a codex before Q2) will give your army a work around for this rule, but until then, you can be more competitive by using some general CSM units to supplement your Rubrics and Sorcerers.

So your solution to Thousand Sons not being viable is to play something else? I hope you stretched before you did those mental gymnastics.

Thousand Sons need Smite (or at the very least, a strong selection of spells that can also inflict damage). Their central units lack high-powered weapons aside from the Hellfyre missile rack, which is only available on every fifth Scarab Terminator. And unlike regular Terminators, they can only take one (anti-infantry) heavy weapon (plus the Hellfyre) per five models. Tank killers they are not. And Thousand Sons players shouldn't be forced to draft 'other Chaos' into their list in order to be playable. At that point, why freakin' bother with the Sons in the first place?

My solution is to use all the tools available to you. How are the Chaos units you add the Thousand Sons legion keyword to any less Thousand Sons models than Rubrics or Occult Terminators?

 EnTyme wrote:
My solution is to use all the tools available to you. How are the Chaos units you add the Thousand Sons legion keyword to any less Thousand Sons models than Rubrics or Occult Terminators?

Background. The true Thousand Sons are all Rubrics or Sorcerors, the other Chaos units are just followers of Tzeentch. If you want a proper force of ex-Legionaries of the Thousand Sons, you don't want adopted Tzeentch wannabes

From a tourney pespective this is obviously irrelevant- the background is secondary to an efficient army. For casual players army theme is very important, and this theme of army has become less viable.

Therefore feedback is needed.

Just a quick refresher.. Here's the only units in the Chaos Index that a Thousand Son army can use:

Magnus, Ahriman, DP, ES, Sorc, Termi Sorc, Sorc on disk, Rubric Marines, Tzaangors, Cultists, Scarab Terminators, Helbrute, Rhino, Heldrake, Chaos Spawn, Defiler, Vindicator, Predator, Land Raider, Forgefiend, Maulerfiend.

That's actually a pretty fair bit of Anti-Tank you can get that is outside Rubric and Scarabs. Though I'm unsure if Rubrics pilot the Predators and other Vehicles.

Oh, I fully sympathize with wanting to build a fluffy list (I can't stand seeing some of the soup lists that are making the rounds online), but unfortunately, you sometimes have to make compromised to be competitive. Hopefully the codex will expand Tsons to at least the same size as the Death Guard release.

Used the new beta rules today I ran 3 Neurothropes and could still hit Smite on 7's especially with their ability to reroll 1s. I think 3-4 is the sweet spot for smite per round.