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The Smite rule plus the rule of one together is overkill.

You spam smite because you can't currently multicast your other powers.

They should drop the rule of one and just roll with +1 difficulty casting for multiple castings of the same power.

Also, anything like Pink Horrors and Wyrdvane Psykers casting on a single d6 is screwed.

All these bandaid fixes apply to Matched Play only anyway. GW has been encouraging Narrative and Open Play all of 8th edition. Nothing to balance!

So maybe smite spammers should expand their ideas of game play.

An errata for the errata book ?

I might need to go strap into my extra sturdy comedy underoo's to enjoy this latest flight on GW's winged Unicorn of self-delusion

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
All these bandaid fixes apply to Matched Play only anyway. GW has been encouraging Narrative and Open Play all of 8th edition. Nothing to balance!

So maybe smite spammers should expand their ideas of game play.

I disagree, the ones who want to play Matched Play were people with weaker armies who don't want easily abusable rules. Open Play has easily abused rules which is why I personally stay away from it.

This does nothing but punish weaker armies as far as I can tell. Except for IG Primaris spam.

 lolman1c wrote:
If you haven't heard gw are now doing beta rules! And they're pretty interesting. Go to the article on Gw website to see full potential rule changes but basically from what i got from the article they want us to try out:
1. Smite nerf. Every time you cast smite it costs 1 more to smite.
2. Character nerf. You can target characters even if there is another character in front of them.

These seem to be issues talked a lot on dakka dakka so what do you guys think of them and the other stuff?


Full article here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/15/the-future-of-faqs-and-chapter-approved-dec-15gw-homepage-post-2/

I like the sound of the character nerf. As IG I normally have between 6-15 characters running around per game and we would often run into really stupid scenarios where my commissar couldn't be shot because technically my company commander was 2" closer and out of line of sight.

I still think characters should be able to be targeted normally if they're too far from friendly units, like say more than 6" from any friendly units that could potentially be shot at, but it's at least a start.

1 - Ok though inelegant, Given this would like to see them go through the other powers to ensure usability across the board, for now it hurts less to have a dud or 2 when you have Smite as a backup.

2- The Culexus issue fixed I guess. I'm not a fan of the current or Beta character targeting rules but this is an improvement.

 lolman1c wrote:
If you haven't heard gw are now doing beta rules! And they're pretty interesting. Go to the article on Gw website to see full potential rule changes but basically from what i got from the article they want us to try out:
1. Smite nerf. Every time you cast smite it costs 1 more to smite.
2. Character nerf. You can target characters even if there is another character in front of them.

These seem to be issues talked a lot on dakka dakka so what do you guys think of them and the other stuff?

Pretty awful. They need to stick to a clean ruleset, not throw 'beta changes' out at random in addition to twice a year scheduled alterations and CA paid alterations.

In specific the smite nerf is pretty awful, and completely the wrong way to go about it. If real smite is a problem, restriction the number of librarians, warlocks, or whatever. Don't make basic abilities even more unworkable for the armies that require them.
The character thing seems to be a problem because of a specific model's super special snowflake rule. Don't mess with character targetting for a third (fourth?) time in a few months in vain attempt to hammer out every wrinkle caused by abandoning consistent USRs.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
All these bandaid fixes apply to Matched Play only anyway. GW has been encouraging Narrative and Open Play all of 8th edition. Nothing to balance!

So maybe smite spammers should expand their ideas of game play.

Sorry, no. Narrative and open is more unbalanced and more open to abusing the ruleset. Smite spammers aren't a problem in the other play modes because there are far, far more effective ways of abusing the psychic phase.

The unbalance of narrative/open WAS my point. Psycho power and smite away just like you'd imagine your army to be played. You're playing cheesy lists but don't want a cheesy environment? I'm sure everyone is gonna claim not to be that type of gamer, but if if your army playstyle got nerfed, it's probably because the majority of gamers abused something to gain an advantage. Cheap fearless troops. Horde killing flyers. Smite spam psykers.

In the next few months, whatever new net list starts winning in tournaments will tell GW what needs to be neutered. If you really want to protect the game, play different lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, this new edition is trying to push NEW models, NEW factions, NEW missions. If someone power games and buys the latest trend, that changes a few months later that's kinda the whole point.

1) The smite fix is a hack.

2) The Characterfix doesn't stop out-of-LOS Drones blocking LOS to Crisis Commanders.

Meh.

I just don't understand for the life of me why they can't just put Characters back into units.

This new way of doing things is unnecessary.

Just allow characters in units like it has been for decades. This was a needless change.

I think the process is a good one, as is being open about the road map to it and thinking behind it.

Smite spam? personally would just allow all powers to be used more than once per turn (not the same one more than once on a unit though) and lift the cost of casters accordingly.

the "rule of one" stuff is one of the few bits of the game that doesn't scale well up or down

The rule about characters is 100% needed. Play against an all assassins list. In the current version of the rules, you will only ever be shooting at a Culexus, assuming you can shoot at anyone at all.

It is gross. The character spam lists are made inordinately strong by virtue of the character targeting restrictions. Sorry i have 10 characters behind my culexus. You have to shoot through it first. Oh sorry i have 1 character out of line of sight but closer to you. You can only shoot at him, but you can't see him, tee hee. So yeah, my 1 commander is in ruins, but my other 11 can see you. And you can't shoot them. Sorry.

it's dumb. the current character rules are beyond dumb.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The unbalance of narrative/open WAS my point. Psycho power and smite away just like you'd imagine your army to be played. You're playing cheesy lists but don't want a cheesy environment? I'm sure everyone is gonna claim not to be that type of gamer, but if if your army playstyle got nerfed, it's probably because the majority of gamers abused something to gain an advantage. Cheap fearless troops. Horde killing flyers. Smite spam psykers.

In the next few months, whatever new net list starts winning in tournaments will tell GW what needs to be neutered. If you really want to protect the game, play different lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, this new edition is trying to push NEW models, NEW factions, NEW missions. If someone power games and buys the latest trend, that changes a few months later that's kinda the whole point.

You heard it here first - anyone complaining because their expensive GK and Tson units pay for a version of smite that is now all but unusable, they're probably a closet dirty power gamer hiding 18 primaris psyker models sewn into the inside of their trenchcoat.

I don't disagree with the sentiment that you should take a variety of stuff to avoid balance weirdness, but god damn dude this rule is a huge kick in the pants for armies that are already in the bottom of the barrel and does next to nothing to hurt the armies that are currently the strongest.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The unbalance of narrative/open WAS my point. Psycho power and smite away just like you'd imagine your army to be played. You're playing cheesy lists but don't want a cheesy environment? I'm sure everyone is gonna claim not to be that type of gamer, but if if your army playstyle got nerfed, it's probably because the majority of gamers abused something to gain an advantage. Cheap fearless troops. Horde killing flyers. Smite spam psykers.

In the next few months, whatever new net list starts winning in tournaments will tell GW what needs to be neutered. If you really want to protect the game, play different lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, this new edition is trying to push NEW models, NEW factions, NEW missions. If someone power games and buys the latest trend, that changes a few months later that's kinda the whole point.

You heard it here first - anyone complaining because their expensive GK and Tson units pay for a version of smite that is now all but unusable, they're probably a closet dirty power gamer hiding 18 primaris psyker models sewn into the inside of their trenchcoat.

I don't know about GK or Tsons, but my Ulthwe army is useless. Warlocks were already crap with a 9" range single mortal wound version of Smite, but now this? I may as well shelve all 20 of them.

You'd think that if all of these people with useless armies would play against each other then they might have a balanced game.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Also, this new edition is trying to push NEW models, NEW factions, NEW missions. If someone power games and buys the latest trend, that changes a few months later that's kinda the whole point.

Which is why they're not making much in the way of new models and the 'new factions' consists of breaking an old faction into a separate book with a handful of releases. And the few new models they do make are pretty naff. And the missions are largely recycled from older editions.
Yep, GW is really pushing the 'new.'

I like both rules.

The new Psychic focus does indeed have a problem with snowflake smites, but in general it is a good change.
I suggest that all the ones that feel that they have a problem with this rule, do exactly what GW told us to do and send a mail to the dedicated address. At this point we know 100% that they are listening to the community and probably scouring this same forum and many others, so plug in to this new system and send them the feedback. After so many years they are finally listening to it!

Also, try to be constructive with your feedback, i suspect that "This rule sucks" is the kind of message that gets filtered before being forwarded to the designers.

 Jaxler wrote:
My grey Knights didn’t need the nerf =\

What are gray knights? I know they have a codex but, marines only come in red, green or blue. Gray is not a GW approved color, please update your paint scheme to match 8th approved color options.

 Happyjew wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The unbalance of narrative/open WAS my point. Psycho power and smite away just like you'd imagine your army to be played. You're playing cheesy lists but don't want a cheesy environment? I'm sure everyone is gonna claim not to be that type of gamer, but if if your army playstyle got nerfed, it's probably because the majority of gamers abused something to gain an advantage. Cheap fearless troops. Horde killing flyers. Smite spam psykers.

In the next few months, whatever new net list starts winning in tournaments will tell GW what needs to be neutered. If you really want to protect the game, play different lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, this new edition is trying to push NEW models, NEW factions, NEW missions. If someone power games and buys the latest trend, that changes a few months later that's kinda the whole point.

You heard it here first - anyone complaining because their expensive GK and Tson units pay for a version of smite that is now all but unusable, they're probably a closet dirty power gamer hiding 18 primaris psyker models sewn into the inside of their trenchcoat.

I don't know about GK or Tsons, but my Ulthwe army is useless. Warlocks were already crap with a 9" range single mortal wound version of Smite, but now this? I may as well shelve all 20 of them.

Or maybe try some games with this new rules, with an open mind, write what you think about this new rule and how it impacts your games, put it nicenly written and give it as feedback to GW?

I don't know. I assume is more work than just complaining on the internet about how this "Beta rules" that GW has released literally asking for community feedback are gonna destroy your army.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I just don't understand for the life of me why they can't just put Characters back into units.

This new way of doing things is unnecessary.

Just allow characters in units like it has been for decades. This was a needless change.

Characters joining units was one of things that broke 7th the hardest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Also, this new edition is trying to push NEW models, NEW factions, NEW missions. If someone power games and buys the latest trend, that changes a few months later that's kinda the whole point.

Which is why they're not making much in the way of new models and the 'new factions' consists of breaking an old faction into a separate book with a handful of releases. And the few new models they do make are pretty naff. And the missions are largely recycled from older editions.
Yep, GW is really pushing the 'new.'

Yeah, I mean...for all of 8th so far they've had 2 major releases in 5-6 months? And those weren't terribly huge releases if you keep in mind just how much of it was repeated content. Ignoring all the easy to builds and "buy 2 out of a 5 man squad pls' releases, Primaris got...4 infantry boxes a handful of clampacks and 2 vehicles DG got 3? Infantry boxes a handfull of clampacks, 2 vehicles and Mortarion. Those are a decent number of kits but not really killing themselves, yunno?

 Grizzyzz wrote:

2) The exact reason for them not doing this as you hope they do.. is so that YOU can't block line of sight on your turn with your own models to snipe characters. For example... I have my farseer sitting behind some rangers. You roll up and park a rhino so that your your squad of hellblasters has full line of sight of my character but can't see the rangers anymore and take him out.

Yeah, why should tactical movement to create shooting opportunities be a thing in a tabletop wargame? /sarcasm

- I'd be in favour of the Smite nerf . . . if they hadn't just tacked on huge point increases to several psykers.

It seems like it would have made a lot more sense to implement this nerf instead of increasing their points.


- On the one hand, I really don't mind the character nerf. On the other hand, it appears to fix very little. Frankly, I'd be far more interested in seeing a fix for characters the size of small buildings being able to hide behind conscripts.

This Smite nerf is stupid...

I'm glad I don't use Horrors in my Thousand Sons army because it would have been even worse.

Guess I'm just back to playing Orks... Oh wait...

They keep fiddling with the character targetting rules, but I think the whole 'closest' thing is a mistake. It would be clearer and make more sense if the characters were untargettable if they were within X inches* of a friendly unit.

* four inches might be a good distance.

Grey Knights are in a bad spot, but honestly, they just need a complete rebuild at this point. It's no use complaining about them in the context of this nerf, because they're so far gone that it's not really worth it anyway.

I like the smite change, seems sensible. I do wish they would let us cast other powers more than once though so we didn't always have to rely on smite.

Character targeting is an improvement at least but not a complete fix. I'd rather take a sensible approach to how it would be in a "real" scenario and have more units with the bodyguard rule or even add a rule where anyone can be bodyguard to a character.

Nemesis234 wrote:
I like the smite change, seems sensible. I do wish they would let us cast other powers more than once though so we didn't always have to rely on smite.

Character targeting is an improvement at least but not a complete fix. I'd rather take a sensible approach to how it would be in a "real" scenario and have more units with the bodyguard rule or even add a rule where anyone can be bodyguard to a character.

That was called "Look out Sir". It died in a fire and there was much rejoice.

Spoletta wrote:

Nemesis234 wrote:
I like the smite change, seems sensible. I do wish they would let us cast other powers more than once though so we didn't always have to rely on smite.

Character targeting is an improvement at least but not a complete fix. I'd rather take a sensible approach to how it would be in a "real" scenario and have more units with the bodyguard rule or even add a rule where anyone can be bodyguard to a character.

That was called "Look out Sir". It died in a fire and there was much rejoice.

But now characters are separate from units and you can allocate wounds to any model in a unit, I think it will work far better second time round.

It might work if all the wounds the character would have taken were treated like mortal wounds on the unit that is guarding him. Since characters tend to attract heavy fire power the guarding unit will soon disappear this way.

I love the idea that they are having mass beta testing. It would help prevent certain individuals from absolutely destroying an army just because they don't like them. *cough* Tau Index *cough* Mass beta testing would also help prevent those individuals from being blamed if it was completely out of their control. If this went live without any input, I can imagine TS players and GK players would be much more justifiably angry if this was just plopped on their lap without having any say.