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"I like the beta rules changes, but for one detail to the smite rule: it adversely affects units like Thousand Sons aspiring sorcerors, grey knights, wyrdvane psyker squads and other units with reduced-power smites.
If you do use those units, which in the case of Pink Horrors, Aspiring Sorcerors and Grey Knights you have no choice if you play that army, you would never use the reduced power version of their smite.
For instance, let's say I play Thousand Sons and I have a battalion detachment with Ahriman and two Sorcerors. Since their smites deal more damage, I will always try with them first, then I get to my rubric squad. They'd need to roll an 8 - a 44% chance - to get a single mortal wound, and they have a 6% chance of getting a perils of the warp and causing the squad to take 2D3 mortal wounds instantly. Not a bet I'd take!
I think the new rule needs to simply be released alongside an errata changing "smite with different name" powers to be their own thing. For example:
For example, change the Warlock datasheet to read:
"The warlock has access to the Destructor power
Destructor: ML5. The closest enemy unit within 9" suffers a single mortal wound. If this model's unit consists of 4-6 models, the closest enemy unit instead suffers D3 mortal wounds. If this model's unit consists of 7-10 models, the closest enemy unit instead suffers D6 mortal wounds. In Matched Play, the Psychic Focus rule does not apply to attempts to cast Destructor."
and so on for Cleansing Flame, Flickering Fires, Telepathic Assault, etc.This would enable all the benefits of the new beta rule at trimming down lists with half a dozen primaris psykers, but also give a reason to take the competing units that are passed up (i.e. wyrdvane psykers) because basic smite is so much better than what they can do."
Thoughts? It's a bit wordier than I'd like, and I considered cutting out the section with the Aspiring sorceror, but I felt like framing it up in an example displaying the impact on the kind of casual play GW encourages might be helpful, because I'm sure they receive many suggestions from people who (at least they suspect) want the change to be made so they can make some kind of cheesy spam list. I wanted to show what it would do to just a basic battalion of thousand sons with a few sorcerors and a few rubric squads.
I think the easier fix is just to remove all rules nerfing smite for these armies. With the -1 change they aren't really needed. This frees up your other psykers to cast other powers while your base squads cast smite. Now if you are running 6 squads of say pink horrors they probably aren't all going to get to cast the power, but 6 squads casting 1 damage smite is likely worse than say 4 casting regular smite. You could also get lucky and get an 11 on your final casting. I think doing this adds more decision making about which squad is in position to be your first choice for smite etc.
There is still this divide between what GWs intentions are and how they perceive how someone will make a list for the game, and what we do in the competitive scene with those rules.
I think its pretty obvious that the intent is 2-3 buffing characters.. atleast 1 psycher but maybe none at all. and filling out the rest of the force in some kind of near battalion format. Some troops, a few elites, heavy attack etc.
If everyone played a battalion the games rules suddenly work a little nicer because these edge case abuses just can't be done.
2) The exact reason for them not doing this as you hope they do.. is so that YOU can't block line of sight on your turn with your own models to snipe characters. For example... I have my farseer sitting behind some rangers. You roll up and park a rhino so that your your squad of hellblasters has full line of sight of my character but can't see the rangers anymore and take him out.
Yeah, why should tactical movement to create shooting opportunities be a thing in a tabletop wargame? /sarcasm
Right its super tactical to park artillery out of line of sight so that you can just snipe out any character you want then because no unit is visibile to them? /sarcasm
Seriously, though, there are alot of cases that just aren't being thought of when people think about how this rule plays out. Is the character rule perfect? NO. Is it better than AOS where you can just snipe characters any time you want? YES (especially given that 40k is wayyyy more punishing)
So have it in the rule that characters cannot be targeted by indirect fire if they are within X inches of a friendly (to them) unit. Problem solved and it doesn't mean that your unit refuses to shoot the only enemy it can see because there is a lone grot hiding behind a fortified wall slightly nearer to them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 13:03:47
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
"I like the beta rules changes, but for one detail to the smite rule: it adversely affects units like Thousand Sons aspiring sorcerors, grey knights, wyrdvane psyker squads and other units with reduced-power smites.
If you do use those units, which in the case of Pink Horrors, Aspiring Sorcerors and Grey Knights you have no choice if you play that army, you would never use the reduced power version of their smite.
For instance, let's say I play Thousand Sons and I have a battalion detachment with Ahriman and two Sorcerors. Since their smites deal more damage, I will always try with them first, then I get to my rubric squad. They'd need to roll an 8 - a 44% chance - to get a single mortal wound, and they have a 6% chance of getting a perils of the warp and causing the squad to take 2D3 mortal wounds instantly. Not a bet I'd take!
I think the new rule needs to simply be released alongside an errata changing "smite with different name" powers to be their own thing. For example:
For example, change the Warlock datasheet to read:
"The warlock has access to the Destructor power
Destructor: ML5. The closest enemy unit within 9" suffers a single mortal wound. If this model's unit consists of 4-6 models, the closest enemy unit instead suffers D3 mortal wounds. If this model's unit consists of 7-10 models, the closest enemy unit instead suffers D6 mortal wounds. In Matched Play, the Psychic Focus rule does not apply to attempts to cast Destructor."
and so on for Cleansing Flame, Flickering Fires, Telepathic Assault, etc.This would enable all the benefits of the new beta rule at trimming down lists with half a dozen primaris psykers, but also give a reason to take the competing units that are passed up (i.e. wyrdvane psykers) because basic smite is so much better than what they can do."
Thoughts? It's a bit wordier than I'd like, and I considered cutting out the section with the Aspiring sorceror, but I felt like framing it up in an example displaying the impact on the kind of casual play GW encourages might be helpful, because I'm sure they receive many suggestions from people who (at least they suspect) want the change to be made so they can make some kind of cheesy spam list. I wanted to show what it would do to just a basic battalion of thousand sons with a few sorcerors and a few rubric squads.
I agree with this, it would have been easier for them to just give 'weak smite' a different name from the very beginning. and i also agree that it should be exempt from the smite -1.
I think the easier fix is just to remove all rules nerfing smite for these armies. With the -1 change they aren't really needed. This frees up your other psykers to cast other powers while your base squads cast smite. Now if you are running 6 squads of say pink horrors they probably aren't all going to get to cast the power, but 6 squads casting 1 damage smite is likely worse than say 4 casting regular smite. You could also get lucky and get an 11 on your final casting. I think doing this adds more decision making about which squad is in position to be your first choice for smite etc.
While an easier change. I think ti would prove to be too powerful. Even tho you only get a few good smites off. Considering you also have a command reroll. PLus units that have bonuses to casting, or rerolls, or strategems to boost powers etc. You can use your extremely cheap brimstones to cast 1-3 smites with pretty good odds, then have a buffed psycher cast another, then say magnus. Just an example. But main point is simply the fact that your extremely CHEAP unit now has access to do more damage then their price tag.
"I like the beta rules changes, but for one detail to the smite rule: it adversely affects units like Thousand Sons aspiring sorcerors, grey knights, wyrdvane psyker squads and other units with reduced-power smites.
If you do use those units, which in the case of Pink Horrors, Aspiring Sorcerors and Grey Knights you have no choice if you play that army, you would never use the reduced power version of their smite.
For instance, let's say I play Thousand Sons and I have a battalion detachment with Ahriman and two Sorcerors. Since their smites deal more damage, I will always try with them first, then I get to my rubric squad. They'd need to roll an 8 - a 44% chance - to get a single mortal wound, and they have a 6% chance of getting a perils of the warp and causing the squad to take 2D3 mortal wounds instantly. Not a bet I'd take!
I think the new rule needs to simply be released alongside an errata changing "smite with different name" powers to be their own thing. For example:
For example, change the Warlock datasheet to read:
"The warlock has access to the Destructor power
Destructor: ML5. The closest enemy unit within 9" suffers a single mortal wound. If this model's unit consists of 4-6 models, the closest enemy unit instead suffers D3 mortal wounds. If this model's unit consists of 7-10 models, the closest enemy unit instead suffers D6 mortal wounds. In Matched Play, the Psychic Focus rule does not apply to attempts to cast Destructor."
and so on for Cleansing Flame, Flickering Fires, Telepathic Assault, etc.This would enable all the benefits of the new beta rule at trimming down lists with half a dozen primaris psykers, but also give a reason to take the competing units that are passed up (i.e. wyrdvane psykers) because basic smite is so much better than what they can do."
Thoughts? It's a bit wordier than I'd like, and I considered cutting out the section with the Aspiring sorceror, but I felt like framing it up in an example displaying the impact on the kind of casual play GW encourages might be helpful, because I'm sure they receive many suggestions from people who (at least they suspect) want the change to be made so they can make some kind of cheesy spam list. I wanted to show what it would do to just a basic battalion of thousand sons with a few sorcerors and a few rubric squads.
I think the easier fix is just to remove all rules nerfing smite for these armies. With the -1 change they aren't really needed. This frees up your other psykers to cast other powers while your base squads cast smite. Now if you are running 6 squads of say pink horrors they probably aren't all going to get to cast the power, but 6 squads casting 1 damage smite is likely worse than say 4 casting regular smite. You could also get lucky and get an 11 on your final casting. I think doing this adds more decision making about which squad is in position to be your first choice for smite etc.
But, when it comes to most of these armies, Smite is almost always the spell you want to be casting on your biggest dudes, and remember by that sixth cast of 1-damage smite you've got nearly equivalent odds of the cast succeeding and getting a perils of the warp (you'd need an 11 to cast)
Also remember that my "other psykers" (all my HQs if I play Tzeentch daemons) have exactly three spells between them to choose from, one of which is essentially Smite but at WC9. Yeah...that's...awesome...no, I think I'd rather cast regular smite with that HQ?
If I field one single lord of change, he can have the entire roster of tzeentch powers and cast them all by himself, leaving all my heralds, daemon princes, other lords of change, and horror squads with Smite.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
"I like the beta rules changes, but for one detail to the smite rule: it adversely affects units like Thousand Sons aspiring sorcerors, grey knights, wyrdvane psyker squads and other units with reduced-power smites.
If you do use those units, which in the case of Pink Horrors, Aspiring Sorcerors and Grey Knights you have no choice if you play that army, you would never use the reduced power version of their smite.
For instance, let's say I play Thousand Sons and I have a battalion detachment with Ahriman and two Sorcerors. Since their smites deal more damage, I will always try with them first, then I get to my rubric squad. They'd need to roll an 8 - a 44% chance - to get a single mortal wound, and they have a 6% chance of getting a perils of the warp and causing the squad to take 2D3 mortal wounds instantly. Not a bet I'd take!
I think the new rule needs to simply be released alongside an errata changing "smite with different name" powers to be their own thing. For example:
For example, change the Warlock datasheet to read:
"The warlock has access to the Destructor power
Destructor: ML5. The closest enemy unit within 9" suffers a single mortal wound. If this model's unit consists of 4-6 models, the closest enemy unit instead suffers D3 mortal wounds. If this model's unit consists of 7-10 models, the closest enemy unit instead suffers D6 mortal wounds. In Matched Play, the Psychic Focus rule does not apply to attempts to cast Destructor."
and so on for Cleansing Flame, Flickering Fires, Telepathic Assault, etc.This would enable all the benefits of the new beta rule at trimming down lists with half a dozen primaris psykers, but also give a reason to take the competing units that are passed up (i.e. wyrdvane psykers) because basic smite is so much better than what they can do."
Thoughts? It's a bit wordier than I'd like, and I considered cutting out the section with the Aspiring sorceror, but I felt like framing it up in an example displaying the impact on the kind of casual play GW encourages might be helpful, because I'm sure they receive many suggestions from people who (at least they suspect) want the change to be made so they can make some kind of cheesy spam list. I wanted to show what it would do to just a basic battalion of thousand sons with a few sorcerors and a few rubric squads.
I agree with this, it would have been easier for them to just give 'weak smite' a different name from the very beginning. and i also agree that it should be exempt from the smite -1.
I think the easier fix is just to remove all rules nerfing smite for these armies. With the -1 change they aren't really needed. This frees up your other psykers to cast other powers while your base squads cast smite. Now if you are running 6 squads of say pink horrors they probably aren't all going to get to cast the power, but 6 squads casting 1 damage smite is likely worse than say 4 casting regular smite. You could also get lucky and get an 11 on your final casting. I think doing this adds more decision making about which squad is in position to be your first choice for smite etc.
While an easier change. I think ti would prove to be too powerful. Even tho you only get a few good smites off. Considering you also have a command reroll. PLus units that have bonuses to casting, or rerolls, or strategems to boost powers etc. You can use your extremely cheap brimstones to cast 1-3 smites with pretty good odds, then have a buffed psycher cast another, then say magnus. Just an example. But main point is simply the fact that your extremely CHEAP unit now has access to do more damage then their price tag.
And there we go. The problem we keep coming back to is the COST of the smiter, not smite itself.
TIL "first cast 1/3 odds, second cast 1/6 odds, if you have more horror squads than 2 you're out of luck" is "pretty good odds".
Keep in mind here that pound for pound a completely unbuffed 10 conscripts deals more damage with their lasguns to terminators than brimstones do with their 1/6 power smite.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Can anyone who thinks "Smite" is the problem rather than "cheap Psykers" explain why?
Smite is just like shooting but with some slightly different rules. Its like saying "drop plasma is the problem, not the fact its cheap".
Paying 45/46 points for a full-fat smite is top tier to the point of breaking the meta. If all such psykers were increased to 70-80 points they would go from "auto-take, good against everyone" to "effective against high points/wound models have to plan a bit to avoid chaff."
Tyel wrote: Can anyone who thinks "Smite" is the problem rather than "cheap Psykers" explain why?
Smite is just like shooting but with some slightly different rules. Its like saying "drop plasma is the problem, not the fact its cheap".
Paying 45/46 points for a full-fat smite is top tier to the point of breaking the meta. If all such psykers were increased to 70-80 points they would go from "auto-take, good against everyone" to "effective against high points/wound models have to plan a bit to avoid chaff."
You could definitely do it either way. I think after a nerf to Spiritseers and Primaris psykers you'd be 90% of the way there. My suggestion is primarily based on "if you want to do it this way, then you should at least be exempting those that need exemption from the blanket rule".
I would be perfectly happy to see the spiritseer and primaris psyker go to 70points instead.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the beta rules idea is a fine, and a good thing, but if we are talking about if the current set of beta rules are good, the smite nerf is a kick in the balls to a lot of armies.
Horrors are pure garbo now, T sons and G knights got rocked in the nuts because of this.
I think the easier fix is just to remove all rules nerfing smite for these armies. With the -1 change they aren't really needed. This frees up your other psykers to cast other powers while your base squads cast smite. Now if you are running 6 squads of say pink horrors they probably aren't all going to get to cast the power, but 6 squads casting 1 damage smite is likely worse than say 4 casting regular smite. You could also get lucky and get an 11 on your final casting. I think doing this adds more decision making about which squad is in position to be your first choice for smite etc.
While an easier change. I think ti would prove to be too powerful. Even tho you only get a few good smites off. Considering you also have a command reroll. PLus units that have bonuses to casting, or rerolls, or strategems to boost powers etc. You can use your extremely cheap brimstones to cast 1-3 smites with pretty good odds, then have a buffed psycher cast another, then say magnus. Just an example. But main point is simply the fact that your extremely CHEAP unit now has access to do more damage then their price tag.
So your brims (which need fixing even beyond smite) could cast smite 3 times (the third at WC7 which is a little better than 50-50), which other buffed psyker you using? Because he needs an 8 to cast, then magnus needs a 9 (which for him is a 7), so while not impossible you are talking about spending what 600 points to do this? Better hope you don't fail any of these, or get shut down because the -1 still happens.
I think the easier fix is just to remove all rules nerfing smite for these armies. With the -1 change they aren't really needed. This frees up your other psykers to cast other powers while your base squads cast smite. Now if you are running 6 squads of say pink horrors they probably aren't all going to get to cast the power, but 6 squads casting 1 damage smite is likely worse than say 4 casting regular smite. You could also get lucky and get an 11 on your final casting. I think doing this adds more decision making about which squad is in position to be your first choice for smite etc.
While an easier change. I think ti would prove to be too powerful. Even tho you only get a few good smites off. Considering you also have a command reroll. PLus units that have bonuses to casting, or rerolls, or strategems to boost powers etc. You can use your extremely cheap brimstones to cast 1-3 smites with pretty good odds, then have a buffed psycher cast another, then say magnus. Just an example. But main point is simply the fact that your extremely CHEAP unit now has access to do more damage then their price tag.
So your brims (which need fixing even beyond smite) could cast smite 3 times (the third at WC7 which is a little better than 50-50), which other buffed psyker you using? Because he needs an 8 to cast, then magnus needs a 9 (which for him is a 7), so while not impossible you are talking about spending what 600 points to do this? Better hope you don't fail any of these, or get shut down because the -1 still happens.
Horrors cast on a single D6, and you can't roll a 7 on a D6.
Tyel wrote: Can anyone who thinks "Smite" is the problem rather than "cheap Psykers" explain why?
Smite is just like shooting but with some slightly different rules. Its like saying "drop plasma is the problem, not the fact its cheap".
Paying 45/46 points for a full-fat smite is top tier to the point of breaking the meta. If all such psykers were increased to 70-80 points they would go from "auto-take, good against everyone" to "effective against high points/wound models have to plan a bit to avoid chaff."
You could definitely do it either way. I think after a nerf to Spiritseers and Primaris psykers you'd be 90% of the way there. My suggestion is primarily based on "if you want to do it this way, then you should at least be exempting those that need exemption from the blanket rule".
I would be perfectly happy to see the spiritseer and primaris psyker go to 70points instead.
Smite is also a problem because it's accessible to every psyker. Some psykers could be cheap buffers, but they have to be expensive to account for their smite capabilities.
I would prefer if spiritseers got a weaker smite rather than a higher point cost, because I want to use them as buffers, not as MW spammers.
Smite was supposed to be the fallback power you use when you don't have anything else to cast, not a go-to power.
My ideal fix would be to have a different casting value for each psyker, instead of a flat 5+ for everyone. That way you can fine tune the average number of wounds a given psyker puts out, without having to use a bazillion special rules to nerf them. That way smite still scales pretty well with game size, and you can easily design pskyers that are good at casting standard powers, but suck at smiting.
Mortal Wounds should be a very small pool of reliable damage to deal with very well protected targets or kill off wounded units. It's not great that some armies suffer because of that change, but it means these armies were designed with wrong mindset from the start.
Why should every attacking psychic power work with mortal wounds in some way at all? Add some regular powers like auto-hits with decent AP.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 13:51:04
"I like the beta rules changes, but for one detail to the smite rule: it adversely affects units like Thousand Sons aspiring sorcerors, grey knights, wyrdvane psyker squads and other units with reduced-power smites.
If you do use those units, which in the case of Pink Horrors, Aspiring Sorcerors and Grey Knights you have no choice if you play that army, you would never use the reduced power version of their smite.
For instance, let's say I play Thousand Sons and I have a battalion detachment with Ahriman and two Sorcerors. Since their smites deal more damage, I will always try with them first, then I get to my rubric squad. They'd need to roll an 8 - a 44% chance - to get a single mortal wound, and they have a 6% chance of getting a perils of the warp and causing the squad to take 2D3 mortal wounds instantly. Not a bet I'd take!
I think the new rule needs to simply be released alongside an errata changing "smite with different name" powers to be their own thing. For example:
For example, change the Warlock datasheet to read:
"The warlock has access to the Destructor power
Destructor: ML5. The closest enemy unit within 9" suffers a single mortal wound. If this model's unit consists of 4-6 models, the closest enemy unit instead suffers D3 mortal wounds. If this model's unit consists of 7-10 models, the closest enemy unit instead suffers D6 mortal wounds. In Matched Play, the Psychic Focus rule does not apply to attempts to cast Destructor."
and so on for Cleansing Flame, Flickering Fires, Telepathic Assault, etc.This would enable all the benefits of the new beta rule at trimming down lists with half a dozen primaris psykers, but also give a reason to take the competing units that are passed up (i.e. wyrdvane psykers) because basic smite is so much better than what they can do."
Thoughts? It's a bit wordier than I'd like, and I considered cutting out the section with the Aspiring sorceror, but I felt like framing it up in an example displaying the impact on the kind of casual play GW encourages might be helpful, because I'm sure they receive many suggestions from people who (at least they suspect) want the change to be made so they can make some kind of cheesy spam list. I wanted to show what it would do to just a basic battalion of thousand sons with a few sorcerors and a few rubric squads.
I think the easier fix is just to remove all rules nerfing smite for these armies. With the -1 change they aren't really needed. This frees up your other psykers to cast other powers while your base squads cast smite. Now if you are running 6 squads of say pink horrors they probably aren't all going to get to cast the power, but 6 squads casting 1 damage smite is likely worse than say 4 casting regular smite. You could also get lucky and get an 11 on your final casting. I think doing this adds more decision making about which squad is in position to be your first choice for smite etc.
But, when it comes to most of these armies, Smite is almost always the spell you want to be casting on your biggest dudes, and remember by that sixth cast of 1-damage smite you've got nearly equivalent odds of the cast succeeding and getting a perils of the warp (you'd need an 11 to cast)
Also remember that my "other psykers" (all my HQs if I play Tzeentch daemons) have exactly three spells between them to choose from, one of which is essentially Smite but at WC9. Yeah...that's...awesome...no, I think I'd rather cast regular smite with that HQ?
If I field one single lord of change, he can have the entire roster of tzeentch powers and cast them all by himself, leaving all my heralds, daemon princes, other lords of change, and horror squads with Smite.
You know until you get a codex with 6 powers, like everyone else, we should not be balancing the game around indices because they won't be the norm going forward. If your other powers suck that is a problem with those powers not with the ability to cast smite. As for casting on an 11, sure you likely won't do it unless it is important., but you won't be casting 1 damage smite, you'll be casting regular smite which was my point. If smite is the power you want your big dudes casting that is a problem with the balance of your other powers because smite should not be the best choice of all of your possible powers.
Part of the issue with all of this is that regular base squads should never have been made into psykers, it has never functioned well in the game. In the end I would rather see all those squads get real smite, because it means less dice rolls getting made for little to no effect.
I think the easier fix is just to remove all rules nerfing smite for these armies. With the -1 change they aren't really needed. This frees up your other psykers to cast other powers while your base squads cast smite. Now if you are running 6 squads of say pink horrors they probably aren't all going to get to cast the power, but 6 squads casting 1 damage smite is likely worse than say 4 casting regular smite. You could also get lucky and get an 11 on your final casting. I think doing this adds more decision making about which squad is in position to be your first choice for smite etc.
While an easier change. I think ti would prove to be too powerful. Even tho you only get a few good smites off. Considering you also have a command reroll. PLus units that have bonuses to casting, or rerolls, or strategems to boost powers etc. You can use your extremely cheap brimstones to cast 1-3 smites with pretty good odds, then have a buffed psycher cast another, then say magnus. Just an example. But main point is simply the fact that your extremely CHEAP unit now has access to do more damage then their price tag.
So your brims (which need fixing even beyond smite) could cast smite 3 times (the third at WC7 which is a little better than 50-50), which other buffed psyker you using? Because he needs an 8 to cast, then magnus needs a 9 (which for him is a 7), so while not impossible you are talking about spending what 600 points to do this? Better hope you don't fail any of these, or get shut down because the -1 still happens.
Horrors cast on a single D6, and you can't roll a 7 on a D6.
Again not if they just changed every unit to have normal smite rules.
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Tyel wrote: Can anyone who thinks "Smite" is the problem rather than "cheap Psykers" explain why?
Smite is just like shooting but with some slightly different rules. Its like saying "drop plasma is the problem, not the fact its cheap".
Paying 45/46 points for a full-fat smite is top tier to the point of breaking the meta. If all such psykers were increased to 70-80 points they would go from "auto-take, good against everyone" to "effective against high points/wound models have to plan a bit to avoid chaff."
The issue with smite is that cheap psykers have it so you could fix it by removing it as the default option for those units. The problem with blanket increases is that it punishes those units if they serve a purpose other than smite.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 13:46:48
I think the easier fix is just to remove all rules nerfing smite for these armies. With the -1 change they aren't really needed. This frees up your other psykers to cast other powers while your base squads cast smite. Now if you are running 6 squads of say pink horrors they probably aren't all going to get to cast the power, but 6 squads casting 1 damage smite is likely worse than say 4 casting regular smite. You could also get lucky and get an 11 on your final casting. I think doing this adds more decision making about which squad is in position to be your first choice for smite etc.
While an easier change. I think ti would prove to be too powerful. Even tho you only get a few good smites off. Considering you also have a command reroll. PLus units that have bonuses to casting, or rerolls, or strategems to boost powers etc. You can use your extremely cheap brimstones to cast 1-3 smites with pretty good odds, then have a buffed psycher cast another, then say magnus. Just an example. But main point is simply the fact that your extremely CHEAP unit now has access to do more damage then their price tag.
So your brims (which need fixing even beyond smite) could cast smite 3 times (the third at WC7 which is a little better than 50-50), which other buffed psyker you using? Because he needs an 8 to cast, then magnus needs a 9 (which for him is a 7), so while not impossible you are talking about spending what 600 points to do this? Better hope you don't fail any of these, or get shut down because the -1 still happens.
Horrors cast on a single D6, and you can't roll a 7 on a D6.
Again not if they just changed every unit to have normal smite rules.
Ah sorry, I thought with your original suggestion you only meant to change 1 mortal wound back to D3. Looking back though it should have been obvious that you meant to drop the D6 thing too.
I really do wish a sizeable chunk of the cry-babies on Dakka would just remove GW from their lives. They will literally complain about everything, anything, all the time. Go away.
The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed.
Tyel wrote: Can anyone who thinks "Smite" is the problem rather than "cheap Psykers" explain why?
Smite is just like shooting but with some slightly different rules. Its like saying "drop plasma is the problem, not the fact its cheap".
Paying 45/46 points for a full-fat smite is top tier to the point of breaking the meta. If all such psykers were increased to 70-80 points they would go from "auto-take, good against everyone" to "effective against high points/wound models have to plan a bit to avoid chaff."
Because you are only valuing those cheap psykers as Smite Batteries and nothing else, when they can be totally fuctional as cheap support psykers. Thats why cheap spykers shouldn't have full smite, or have smite adressed in other ways like this "beta rule":
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
I think the easier fix is just to remove all rules nerfing smite for these armies. With the -1 change they aren't really needed. This frees up your other psykers to cast other powers while your base squads cast smite. Now if you are running 6 squads of say pink horrors they probably aren't all going to get to cast the power, but 6 squads casting 1 damage smite is likely worse than say 4 casting regular smite. You could also get lucky and get an 11 on your final casting. I think doing this adds more decision making about which squad is in position to be your first choice for smite etc.
While an easier change. I think ti would prove to be too powerful. Even tho you only get a few good smites off. Considering you also have a command reroll. PLus units that have bonuses to casting, or rerolls, or strategems to boost powers etc. You can use your extremely cheap brimstones to cast 1-3 smites with pretty good odds, then have a buffed psycher cast another, then say magnus. Just an example. But main point is simply the fact that your extremely CHEAP unit now has access to do more damage then their price tag.
So your brims (which need fixing even beyond smite) could cast smite 3 times (the third at WC7 which is a little better than 50-50), which other buffed psyker you using? Because he needs an 8 to cast, then magnus needs a 9 (which for him is a 7), so while not impossible you are talking about spending what 600 points to do this? Better hope you don't fail any of these, or get shut down because the -1 still happens.
You do know they cast on a single D6, right? Even for tzeentch, getting a 7 on a single die is tricky. Under the new rule, only two squads of horrors in the entire army could attempt smite.
If your suggestion is to just give them full power smite, that would work fine, just like exempting mini-smites would be fine, or leaving them alone and points adjusting the few real offenders would be fine.
My overall point is that as written the current beta rule is a poor fix. If you're arguing that it wouldn't be a bad fix if they made some other adjustments to it...then we agree?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 14:31:27
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I think the easier fix is just to remove all rules nerfing smite for these armies. With the -1 change they aren't really needed. This frees up your other psykers to cast other powers while your base squads cast smite. Now if you are running 6 squads of say pink horrors they probably aren't all going to get to cast the power, but 6 squads casting 1 damage smite is likely worse than say 4 casting regular smite. You could also get lucky and get an 11 on your final casting. I think doing this adds more decision making about which squad is in position to be your first choice for smite etc.
While an easier change. I think ti would prove to be too powerful. Even tho you only get a few good smites off. Considering you also have a command reroll. PLus units that have bonuses to casting, or rerolls, or strategems to boost powers etc. You can use your extremely cheap brimstones to cast 1-3 smites with pretty good odds, then have a buffed psycher cast another, then say magnus. Just an example. But main point is simply the fact that your extremely CHEAP unit now has access to do more damage then their price tag.
So your brims (which need fixing even beyond smite) could cast smite 3 times (the third at WC7 which is a little better than 50-50), which other buffed psyker you using? Because he needs an 8 to cast, then magnus needs a 9 (which for him is a 7), so while not impossible you are talking about spending what 600 points to do this? Better hope you don't fail any of these, or get shut down because the -1 still happens.
You do know they cast on a single D6, right? Even for tzeentch, getting a 7 on a single die is tricky. Under the new rule, only two squads of horrors in the entire army could attempt smite.
As I pointed out to another poster, if your remove all the rules nerfing smite they don't cast on 1D6 anymore. They would cast normal smite just like every other psyker.
My issue with the beta rules is two fold, first they are driven by abuse in the match play way to play but the changes are coming down the pipe for all. Second, the smite adjustment does not address the real issue, which is mortal wounds are very powerful and while uncommon in the indexes are now far too common.
So, to answer the OPs question: Character rules should have been a two fold adjustment, first characters should be able to be targets if the closest viable (no units out of LoS or in HtH stopping me from shooting the dude in the open) and the adjustment they proposed.
And a smite nerf that keeps psychic heavy forces viable: "Smite has a warp charge of 5. If manifested, the closest visible enemy unit within 18" of the psyker suffers d3 wounds with D1 and AP-2. If the result of the psychic test was more than 10, the target suffers d3 mortal wounds."
This allows any force to attempt psychic damage output from repeated telekinetic effects, which are effective against unarmored troops, but for heavy armor or invul saves will still stop the majority of the damage. Except on those rare occasions when the damage is just super and then the rare and exceptional mortal wound that cannot be stopped happens.
This also makes psykers with the +(x) to the psychic test even more powerful as they will have greater potential to get the rarer mortal wounds.
Kernbanks
definitely not a monogamer, you got it I'll play it.
I understand why smite spamming armies would be upset about this change, but if this becomes a permanent rule it would not stop me from starting up a TSON army.
I don't think people understand just how powerful MWs are. The wounds can’t be saved against, and spamming 10+ MW a round is just insane. We have a local Tzeentch player who steamrolls her opponents half the time, and its a one trick pony. Hell, I picked up some assassins just for the purpose of countering her spam. I won’t shed a tear over someone having their easy mode button taken away, but if you can bring up some reasonable other ideas they should be entertained.
Between that and the fact the casters who can only roll a single D6 do have the benefit of not being able to trigger perils of the warp? So what if your troops can only cast it twice instead of the 5-6 times you are hoping for. Cast it twice before your characters who roll two dice cast. You still can pull off 3-4 smites in a turn. This change will force you to rely on more than just smiting everything into the ground. I think this makes a lot of sense, and I am looking forward to seeing what the play testing results show.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 18:25:27
Karthicus wrote: I understand why smite spamming armies would be upset about this change, but if this becomes a permanent rule it would not stop me from starting up a TSON army.
I don't think people understand just how powerful MWs are. The wounds can’t be saved against, and spamming 10+ MW a round is just insane. We have a local Tzeentch player who steamrolls her opponents half the time, and its a one trick pony. Hell, I picked up some assassins just for the purpose of countering her spam. I won’t shed a tear over someone having their easy mode button taken away, but if you can bring up some reasonable other ideas they should be entertained.
Between that and the fact the casters who can only roll a single D6 do have the benefit of not being able to trigger perils of the warp? So what if your troops can only cast it twice instead of the 5-6 times you are hoping for. Cast it twice before your characters who roll two dice cast. You still can pull off 3-4 smites in a turn. This change will force you to rely on more than just smiting everything into the ground. I think this makes a lot of sense, and I am looking forward to seeing what the play testing results show.
You know how many mortal wounds you cause if you cast Smite with horrors 6 times as you describe?
2.
1/3 chance base of one single mortal wound. which, again, as I've said, works out to less damage, at a shorter range, less reliably, than the basic autoguns/lasguns/shootas of comparably cheap shooty infantry, even against optimal targets for MWs like Terminators. Just because you have to roll more dice and get a save does not mean a thing does less damage to you. 10+ mortal wounds per turn? That's insane! You could almost kill a RHINO with that awesome firepower! And it's an enormous 18" range and ONLY has the drawback of having to target the closest target to the firer and has a 6% chance of causing mortal wounds to you every time you fire it.
I cant help but feel like the people bitching and moaning about MWs are the type that view weapons like the Leman Russ Vanquisher as just fine/possibly overpowered. "WOW! It's like a melta gun that shoots ACROSS THE TABLE? that's SO GOOD!"
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I swear a lot of the stories I hear about smite spam are either from masters of tactical engagement or sub par players.
From my personal experience, an experienced player will shield their valuable models and concentrate their fire on the offending Psykers. You can absolutely force your opponent through the positioning of your models to use smite on your less valuable models.
If you choose to take no expendable units, then it's a risk you took while army building that didn't pay off in that matchup.
If your problem is with mortal wounds as a concept you are likely S.O.L.
Superheavies didn't go anywhere.
Flyers didn't go anywhere.
Formations/Detachments didn't go anywhere.
Mortal Wounds are likely to stay as well.
What do folks think of changing Smite to have major/minor (or renaming the lesser version as mentioned before) versions of the power. Minor does the same damage, but is only regular wounds*, major does Mortal Wounds but follows the beta rules on increasing difficulty. Some units can only cast minor (the current mini-smite characters), others can choose which (most characters).
*GK gets a special rule that when the target is a Daemon their Minor smite causes MW.
Xenomancers wrote: If they are about to release beta rules....WTF rules are we using now lol.
Think of it more like the public beta of the next major patch, which is really what it is.
Video game companies often do the same thing, and if they don't then it's likely tested privately instead.
That's a pretty good point. Normally video game companies release reasoning for each change they make in a patch so you can get an idea of what they are doing.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: If they are about to release beta rules....WTF rules are we using now lol.
Think of it more like the public beta of the next major patch, which is really what it is. Video game companies often do the same thing, and if they don't then it's likely tested privately instead.
That's a pretty good point. Normally video game companies release reasoning for each change they make in a patch so you can get an idea of what they are doing.
I have no idea what videogame companies you are talking about. All the games I play just release a patch into the sea of piranhas they call a "community", and then that patch is ripped apart and simultaneously both too much and too little to fix the problem while not addressing other problems that aren't problems at all, obviously. They sometimes include Patch Notes which explain what changed, but never why.
They don't touch "reasoning" with a 10-foot pole, for obvious reasons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 19:15:07
Karthicus wrote: I understand why smite spamming armies would be upset about this change, but if this becomes a permanent rule it would not stop me from starting up a TSON army.
I don't think people understand just how powerful MWs are. The wounds can’t be saved against, and spamming 10+ MW a round is just insane. We have a local Tzeentch player who steamrolls her opponents half the time, and its a one trick pony. Hell, I picked up some assassins just for the purpose of countering her spam. I won’t shed a tear over someone having their easy mode button taken away, but if you can bring up some reasonable other ideas they should be entertained.
Between that and the fact the casters who can only roll a single D6 do have the benefit of not being able to trigger perils of the warp? So what if your troops can only cast it twice instead of the 5-6 times you are hoping for. Cast it twice before your characters who roll two dice cast. You still can pull off 3-4 smites in a turn. This change will force you to rely on more than just smiting everything into the ground. I think this makes a lot of sense, and I am looking forward to seeing what the play testing results show.
You know how many mortal wounds you cause if you cast Smite with horrors 6 times as you describe?
2.
1/3 chance base of one single mortal wound. which, again, as I've said, works out to less damage, at a shorter range, less reliably, than the basic autoguns/lasguns/shootas of comparably cheap shooty infantry, even against optimal targets for MWs like Terminators. Just because you have to roll more dice and get a save does not mean a thing does less damage to you. 10+ mortal wounds per turn? That's insane! You could almost kill a RHINO with that awesome firepower! And it's an enormous 18" range and ONLY has the drawback of having to target the closest target to the firer and has a 6% chance of causing mortal wounds to you every time you fire it.
I cant help but feel like the people bitching and moaning about MWs are the type that view weapons like the Leman Russ Vanquisher as just fine/possibly overpowered. "WOW! It's like a melta gun that shoots ACROSS THE TABLE? that's SO GOOD!"
Yes, I am well aware of the fact the beta rules would limit your spam list to only 2 smite attempts from D6 casters. Good.
Oh man! It's so unfair that you only get to do 2 MW per turn instead of 10+... GW how could you?!?! /Sarcasm
The amount of hyperbole you are throwing out is astonishing. My example is enough firepower to take out any dedicated transport, dread, or stormtalon/hawk. That's pretty potent dude. On top of that you can throw it at units that are locked up in melee?
adamsouza wrote:I swear a lot of the stories I hear about smite spam are either from masters of tactical engagement or sub par players.
From my personal experience, an experienced player will shield their valuable models and concentrate their fire on the offending Psykers. You can absolutely force your opponent through the positioning of your models to use smite on your less valuable models.
If you choose to take no expendable units, then it's a risk you took while army building that didn't pay off in that matchup.
If your problem is with mortal wounds as a concept you are likely S.O.L.
Superheavies didn't go anywhere.
Flyers didn't go anywhere.
Formations/Detachments didn't go anywhere.
Mortal Wounds are likely to stay as well.
You can blame this on sub par players all you want, but the fact that GW is currently trying to have some changes play tested should speak to the fact perhaps it's a little unbalanced.
I have no problem with MW in the game, or as a concept. In fact I think its a cool mechanic to have in the game. I agree that you need to adjust your tactics, and be mindful to shield units from things like Smite, but that doesn't take away how powerful it is, and how quickly it can dominate a game.
I think this was a really good starting point. Let the testing play out and see what happens once they have collected that information. Perhaps GW will make some tweaks or include some changes for GK and TSON armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 19:20:08
If my opponent does 10 wounds to me in a phase, I thank my lucky stars that either their dice were cold, mine were hot, or they brought an awful awful army.
I don't think I have ever suffered 10 wounds in a phase and been like "wow, that feels OP, how do you beat this army?"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 19:20:17
Well... my opponents typically do about 10-15 mortal wounds to me in return. And then on top of that the rest of their army also contributes another 20 or so.
And those are lists where we are restraining ourselves and not being tfg.
In a list where you are following "the meta" and have a bunch of cheap blob units, 30-40 wounds infliicted on you is pretty minor.
If you are not running "the meta", 30-40 wounds can and does take you down below 50% in a turn.
Whether that is good or bad of course is subjective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 19:36:38
