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2017/12/29 01:27:41
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Breng77 wrote: Arachnofiend wrote:I think what Breng means is that against the vast majority of opponents the 2 was a failed to-hit anyways. You have to get at least a 3 on 2d6-drop-highest to expect significant value out of the ability, which isn't great odds.
Right the ability is you roll 2d6 drop the highest, and then you opponents hit rolls of the lower value auto fail.
20/36 times that lower number will be a 1 or a 2 so 55% of the time against most opponents it does absolutely nothing.
You say that like there are not other Abilities that do not do nothing a reasonable percentage of the time.
Cadian's get to reroll 1's if they don't move, so it does nothing if they move and works 16% of the time when they don't. It must be a useless ability.
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2017/12/29 01:40:31
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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You say that as if my original response wasn't made to someone saying it was basically -1 to hit most of the time. Which it isn't. Further the Cadian ability is significantly better. I'm not saying this ability is horrible it just isn't especially powerful which was the original claim. It is a marginal durability buff. Let's put it this way. No one ever called the 4++ in close combat only storm shield OP. This is significantly worse than that.
Also dark angels get the cadian ability and no one is claiming it is broken like this thread claims for this ability. I stand by my assertion it is easily the third best locus of the 4. Automatically Appended Next Post: WindstormSCR wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:I mean, so are saving throws, going by your logic.
What is the difference between "you rolled a 3, your attack misses" and "I rolled a 3, your attack soes nothing"?
Well, to put it in context, at least with other hit penalties several armies have methods of adding to hit rolls as well, so my definition of interaction here is that there is at least something that can be done to mitigate it.
I'm of the opinion that anything that messes with attacks prior to the save roll isn't good design, because it creates several meta twisting problems all to itself. That means giving factions armywide -1 to hit, this thing, and yes, even conceal, nightshroud, and some of the unit abilities in the Craftworlds codex. If every army had equal options for shooting and melee, making 'just shoot them' the answer might be fine. But across the spectrum of factions that is far from the case. 7th had a problem with invulnerables and FnP. 8th is developing a problem with hit modifiers.
Availability of good AP is not even across all factions thus saves must be a problem too.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 01:45:40
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2017/12/29 01:59:25
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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That ability is excessively complicated. It's understandable, but I don't see why it couldn't just have been "-1 to hit in CQC."
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Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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2017/12/29 02:16:27
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Because that would be significantly more powerful than what it currently is. The closest easy fix would be "roll a D6 on a 5+ units within 6" are -1 to hit in the fight phase." If the changling remains unchanged -1 to hit in the fight phase would make brimstone screens a super hard counter to assault armies.
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2017/12/29 02:19:46
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:That ability is excessively complicated. It's understandable, but I don't see why it couldn't just have been "-1 to hit in CQC."
To be fair, the Tzeentch loci being excessively complicated is quite fluffy.
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2017/12/29 02:26:29
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
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Arachnofiend wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:That ability is excessively complicated. It's understandable, but I don't see why it couldn't just have been "-1 to hit in CQC."
To be fair, the Tzeentch loci being excessively complicated is quite fluffy.
Just double-down and make every strategem require a basic concept of calculus and only work on certain days of the year.
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"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.
6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted |
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2017/12/29 02:37:12
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Fixture of Dakka
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2017/12/29 03:30:10
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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GW just increased my desire to start a slaanesh army.
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2017/12/29 04:10:51
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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BlaxicanX wrote:I mean, so are saving throws, going by your logic.
What is the difference between "you rolled a 3, your attack misses" and "I rolled a 3, your attack soes nothing"?
Well this one is certainly clumber and slowing game down. Which is why I don't like it. GW was sprouting all this nonsense of fastening 8th ed but all knew they would just saddle it with game slowing rerolls by bucketloads and weird bespoken rules(like this) to slow it down. The only real speeding up was turning alpha strike up to 11 that there's often no need to even move models for one army or play past turn 1!
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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2017/12/29 12:59:29
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:That ability is excessively complicated. It's understandable, but I don't see why it couldn't just have been "-1 to hit in CQC."
Because the ability was specifically tuned to NOT create a situation where your guys are effectively invincible.
Think about it, the odds of ignoring a 6 to hit are 1/36
the odds of ignoring a 5 to hit are 3/36
a 4, 5/36
a 3, 7/36
The remaining 20/36 results get you the almost always useless 2 and 1 result.
it intentionally scales down in usefulness with other "nyah nyah can't hit me" style abilities, so that you don't see units becoming nigh impossible to hurt like we did with screamer stars last edition.
I don't think this is doubling down on bad design at all, it's certainly a better design than say an invulnerable save.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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2017/12/29 14:07:42
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Right, it's effectiveness is actually inversely proportional to negative hit modifiers. Having a -1 to hit actually makes it more likely this ability will have no effect. It also effects better melee units more often than marginal ones. Against a model that hits on a 2+ it is often a -1 to hit, against a model that hits on a 5+ it almost never is. So it is good for your tar pit units, but creating a deathstars to beat up weaker units and be invincible is unlikely.
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2017/12/29 14:33:32
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Exactly.
Its by far the worst of the four actually.
Its a marginal difference, at CC only, that works SOME of the time, and only in defensive measures not actually helping you make kills.
The other three gets you into combat quicker (where you want to be), or make you deadlier when you actually get there-and are all far more reliable.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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2017/12/29 15:14:27
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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BoomWolf wrote:Exactly.
Its by far the worst of the four actually.
Its a marginal difference, at CC only, that works SOME of the time, and only in defensive measures not actually helping you make kills.
The other three gets you into combat quicker (where you want to be), or make you deadlier when you actually get there-and are all far more reliable.
It is worth noting that the slaanesh one at least has some Skornergy built into it as well - steeds and seekers of slaanesh get that ability by default, so it's only useful for their footy units and chariots (though it is very nice on the chariots).
The Khorne one is going to be especially nice if daemons get some of their more universal deepstrike capabilities back through stratagems.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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2017/12/30 00:15:28
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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You are assuming steeds and seekers do not change.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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2017/12/30 01:12:34
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Northridge, CA
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Everyone is pretty much assuming everything at this point.
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2017/12/30 06:20:27
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Pious Palatine
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alextroy wrote:Breng77 wrote: Arachnofiend wrote:I think what Breng means is that against the vast majority of opponents the 2 was a failed to-hit anyways. You have to get at least a 3 on 2d6-drop-highest to expect significant value out of the ability, which isn't great odds.
Right the ability is you roll 2d6 drop the highest, and then you opponents hit rolls of the lower value auto fail.
20/36 times that lower number will be a 1 or a 2 so 55% of the time against most opponents it does absolutely nothing.
You say that like there are not other Abilities that do not do nothing a reasonable percentage of the time.
Cadian's get to reroll 1's if they don't move, so it does nothing if they move and works 16% of the time when they don't. It must be a useless ability.
SoB get to deny on 1D6, which means they can stop 1 out of every 54 smites (when you do stop something with it though it can immediately break the game in you favor but that's neither here nor there)
And as many people have said, it's actually not great and it's about dam time a daemon codex comes out that doesn't completely destroy the game system (demons destroyed 6th and was the last bullet to the head of 7th, destroyed Sigmar, Destroyed WHFB back in the day, etc.)
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2017/12/30 07:22:47
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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I dunno. If you get a six as a result that's gonna stop a lot of rules that do extra things on 6s to hit
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2017/12/30 07:31:39
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Norn Queen
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I think getting anxious about special rules in a vacuum is a waste of everyones time. Each codex has seen units changed, special rules changed, and all kinds of modifications. Worrying about how this will stack with models we haven't seen yet is nonsensical.
Wait for the whole picture. And then when you have a freak out about the codex remember a FAQ and Errata is 2 weeks away.
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These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
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2017/12/30 09:07:45
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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fraser1191 wrote:I dunno. If you get a six as a result that's gonna stop a lot of rules that do extra things on 6s to hit
Problem is, you only have 1/36 chance to even get to nullfi 6s, and many of the 6+ triggers don't actually matter when fighting the tzeentch swarm (multiple wounds or increasing AP for example, do nothing against horrors.)
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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2017/12/30 09:13:20
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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BoomWolf wrote: fraser1191 wrote:I dunno. If you get a six as a result that's gonna stop a lot of rules that do extra things on 6s to hit
Problem is, you only have 1/36 chance to even get to nullfi 6s, and many of the 6+ triggers don't actually matter when fighting the tzeentch swarm (multiple wounds or increasing AP for example, do nothing against horrors.)
Those are to wound triggers. The most common 6+ to hit trigger is stuff like tesla that gives you multiple hits which is very much relevant against horrors.
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2017/12/30 09:28:37
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Right, my bad. Though tesla is not CC, and its CC only.
Still, only 1/36 of getting that result anyway, you are just as likely to get a 1,1 and the effect fizzles, and more likely to get a 1,2/2,2 who usually means nothing at all as well against all but the most elite stuff (who want to avoid your tarpit like the plague anyways)
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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2017/12/30 11:14:18
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver
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Arachnofiend wrote:Those are to wound triggers. The most common 6+ to hit trigger is stuff like tesla that gives you multiple hits which is very much relevant against horrors.
Except Tesla is a ranged ability.
The only thing I can think of that triggers on a 6+ to hit is the Adeptus Mechanicus Dragoons' lance weapon. Maybe Tyranids get some too, I didn't get to read their codex.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 11:14:59
Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons |
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2017/12/30 12:01:44
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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fraser1191 wrote:I dunno. If you get a six as a result that's gonna stop a lot of rules that do extra things on 6s to hit
As I already pointed out -1 to hit already does this. This does it a highly rare amount of times.
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2017/12/30 16:46:44
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Highly rare? It's nearly a 1/3 chance-11/36 to be exact.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2017/12/30 18:17:44
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Against what? Chance of rolling 1 or 2 on 2dice is pretty darn high. Units that hit on 4p odds are even worse. 25% chance to get effect.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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2017/12/30 18:49:54
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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I think you got how this ability works a lot wrong.
You roll two dice and take the LOWEST, not the highest to be effected.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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2017/12/30 19:01:36
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The odds of blocking a 6 are 1/36. Pretty unlikely.
It will however go off 16/36 against WS 3+ - 4 times in 9, or 45% of the time. So fairly frequently if you have multiple squads.
And 25/36 against WS 2+.
Really I don't like it because horrors are already annoying as chaff and I don't see why they have to be even better at it. I know some people feel they have been nerfed a lot - but they are one of the few units I would like to see disappear from this edition (or be completely re-imagined).
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2017/12/30 21:09:15
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Gargantuan Gargant
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Roll 2d6 and discard the highest. Ignore the result of the remaining die. You would have to roll 2 6's to ignore rolls of 6.
I believe your math is wrong.
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2017/12/30 21:57:24
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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adamsouza wrote:
Roll 2d6 and discard the highest. Ignore the result of the remaining die. You would have to roll 2 6's to ignore rolls of 6.
I believe your math is wrong.
Yup. The way I read it, was that you kept BOTH dice.
So that's my bad. The rule is confusing.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2017/12/30 22:05:47
Subject: Chaos Daemon Faction Focus: doubling down on bad design?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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well here is my prediction, no steeds, no mounts etc. unless there is a model for it, that also means that skulltaker will lose mounts (again), all the stupid charts to roll on will remain for some reason OR they will water it all down to 6 relics, 2 warlord traits will be good and total of 6 psy powers will be good, out of 18.
I am just going off the previous codexs here
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