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 MajorWesJanson wrote:
If GW is doing the rules for 40k now, they really need to look at the FW indexes and update them. Especially Titans of all sorts.

I really don't understand why the main GW team cannot handle the rule side of the 40K things for the FW. The FW indexes were an utter garbage fire, and even if that hadn't been the case, for consistency's sake it is the best if each game has its own dedicated team that handles all rules for that game. FW guys can do the rules for HH and the specialist games.

zedmeister wrote:It is highly unlikely they'd go Great Crusade. If they do, it'll take someone with Alan Bligh's talent to really pull it off and they'd most likely focus on the most apocalyptic war - the Rangdan Xenocide. They wouldn't do Murder as that is, frankly, a backwater in comparison.

Agreed. Plus the xenos involved in the Rangdan xenocide seem to be reappearing in 40k, and would make an excellent new major xenos threat.

Alpharius wrote:That would be The Scourging, which while interesting, still doesn't hold a candle to the great good fun that a Great Crusade setting would give us!

But odds are we will see The Scourging, but not the Great Crusade, sadly...

The Scouring is a more realistic option I think because the xenos counterattack during the Scouring- they take advantage of the fractured ruins of the Imperium to regroup and seize lost territory. Therefore, we get both loyalist vs traitor action and xenos threats. Any xenos that survived the Great Crusade with enough strength to attack again following the Heresy are also the only xenos really worth caring about in a GC setting- they are the major players like Eldar, Orks, Khrave etc. As mentioned above, all the Megarachnids and Laer of the Galaxy are pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things- they only have relevence within the specific stories told in the HH books. FW will never make xenos models for species confined to a single world, nor should they.

So we get aspects of both the Heresy and the GC in the Scouring, with the added bonus that any new xenos are likely still floating around in 40k and could make entirely new factions, rather than being simply exterminated in the GC.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
The great crusade won't take off because there is no scope for traitor legions, and people like traitor legions.

On the contrary. It would allow such battles as luna wolves and ba together which was common etc

tneva82 wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
The great crusade won't take off because there is no scope for traitor legions, and people like traitor legions.

On the contrary. It would allow such battles as luna wolves and ba together which was common etc

Not fighting against each other though. It is repeatedly mentioned how unthinkable the idea of Astartes vs Astartes is in the early HH books, and how it was such a shock to the loyalists. Therefore Astartes fighting must've been exceedingly rare beforehand.

Anyway, you could easily have a loyalist SoH detachment who have returned to Luna Wolves colours fighting alongside BA troops in the HH. There is more scope for that kind of thing during the Heresy, not less.

Unification Wars or bust. I think it'd be far more interesting and creative than either the Crusade or Scouring settings.

 gorgon wrote:
Unification Wars or bust. I think it'd be far more interesting and creative than either the Crusade or Scouring settings.

yeah the uni wars could be an interesting one to explore. lots of human factions, techno barbarians, thunder warriors etc. parts would be cross compatible from all the current ranges. and you could still have evil/chaos forces with the Ursh stuff.

I think the Scourging is way more likely than the Unification Wars.

But man, I would love to see a Thunder Warrior fight a Space Marine.

tneva82 wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
The great crusade won't take off because there is no scope for traitor legions, and people like traitor legions.

On the contrary. It would allow such battles as luna wolves and ba together which was common etc

against whom? random aliens? isolated human settlements which stand no chance against astartes? lets be honest, the great crusade is just background filler in which to cultivate the Heresy story. the opponents faced are irrelevant filler, except the Orks, which, although a mainstay of the wider 40k universe, still only a footnote in the heresy stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red_Five wrote:
I think the Scourging is way more likely than the Unification Wars.

But man, I would love to see a Thunder Warrior fight a Space Marine.

it only happens once (or possibly twice if you count outcast dead) in the lore.

Pre or post heresy I think there is still a lot of stuff to be explored and as long as I dont have to read about primaris or any of the terrible current 40k storylines I am happy !

 Crimson wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
If GW is doing the rules for 40k now, they really need to look at the FW indexes and update them. Especially Titans of all sorts.

I really don't understand why the main GW team cannot handle the rule side of the 40K things for the FW. The FW indexes were an utter garbage fire, and even if that hadn't been the case, for consistency's sake it is the best if each game has its own dedicated team that handles all rules for that game. FW guys can do the rules for HH and the specialist games.

I think historically its been because the main studio and FW didn't communicate. The main studio releases are kept tightly under wraps - heck FW team didn't even know AoS was going to hit until it pretty much landed. GW's internal protections against leaks sometimes don't work in their favour.

Plus there's likely been a legacy issue; FW was often seen as quite an independent entity within the GW framework. Off to the side doing their own thing. I think Kirby allowed that to continue whilst I think Rountree is bringing them more into the mainstream fold.

 Crimson wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
If GW is doing the rules for 40k now, they really need to look at the FW indexes and update them. Especially Titans of all sorts.

I really don't understand why the main GW team cannot handle the rule side of the 40K things for the FW. The FW indexes were an utter garbage fire, and even if that hadn't been the case, for consistency's sake it is the best if each game has its own dedicated team that handles all rules for that game. FW guys can do the rules for HH and the specialist games.

Well, they are now.

 Peregrine wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It seems so bizarre that GW would be "protecting" 40K from... themselves. Why are FW treated like an adversary or competitor?

Because GW.

I like how people blame GW when vast majority of nonsense is coming squarely from FW side. Who is sitting on finished Cyraxus? Not GW. Who "forgot" plastic custodes exist and made up their uglier, fluff-breaking versions of almost every custode unit while doing utmost to deny plastics rules? All while ignoring both custode art (which is nearly identical to plastics and looks nothing like resin...) while making both named custode HQs look utterly comical and ill-fitting in supposedly 'progressive' M30? Not GW. Who frakking started spouting nonsense about 30K BA (namely, that their iconic unit and their second in command who only oh, was acting Emperor for a bit apparently don't exist) just to avoid selling plastic minis? Not GW. Who peed all over late Alan Bligh's plan to move to 8th edition just to show middle finger to GW despite said move almost killing HH? Take one guess. Etc, etc. I have no idea why people defend FW when the amount of lies, lack of communication, and blame shifting (remember totally-special-pattern, not-upside-down bolters?) over last 2 years point finger squarely in one direction...

tneva82 wrote:

 Looky Likey wrote:
This felt like GW trying to keep 40k balanced (as funny as the reality of that is) and avoiding GW having to manage the FW rules writing process for 40k units.

To be fair, FW doesn't have a large enough team needed to produce enough models for HH and 40k and Specalist Games at the same time.

Yeah that's rather funny goal seeing GW is the one doing most unbalancing to the game. The less GW gets involved with 40k the better it is for balance.

Yup, and that's exactly why most of broken pay-to-win gak is found squarely on FW side, because GW is bad at balancing. Oh wait

Maybe you should actually read something FW put out recently, because they can't even balance game based solely on MEQ minis, FW books look like they were not only never proofread, but put together by illiterate Malaysian child over weekend (looking at you, FW Index...) with half of the rules either missing or being copy-pasted from past editions, point costs are broken across the board, either making units completely unusable or OP as gak, really, compared to that GW is whole segmentums ahead in quality and execution. Not even 7th edition was as bad as some gems produced by FW recently, with only material and availability barriers stopping resin spam making even 7th edition Eldar look like a weak joke. Why, already forgot how every single Chaos HQ was from FW or how FW thought 4 pts Elysians with native deep strike should also get regimental traits for free before GW was forced for the first time ever to step in and hit the nonsense with nerf bat?

If gw says at last minute to fw redo every rule no wonder it's nmt good. But look at hh game that beats crap out of 8th in terms of logic, fun and especially balance. Bb, necro. Both lightyears ahead 8th. At is even better.

Main studio is incompetent junk that doesn't even want balance. Pay to win? Always gw speciality. Fw units are more of err on side of caution.
Fw isn't perfect but at least they try balance. Gw intentionally doesn't as imbalance ups profits.

Fw interested in quality, gw from exploiting balance for profit and game balance can go to hell

The Lord of the Rings trilogy was adapted from 3 books into 3 movies; a lot of stuff was cut but they “hit the high points”. The Hobbit was adapted from 1 book into 3 movies. The former is a great piece of fantasy film, the latter became a joke among even die-hard fans of the setting.
Forgeworld’s should be striving to emulate The Lord of the Rings with it’s Heresy rules, and leave Legolas’ adventures in Mordor to the Black Library.

 greyknight12 wrote:
The Lord of the Rings trilogy was adapted from 3 books into 3 movies; a lot of stuff was cut but they “hit the high points”. The Hobbit was adapted from 1 book into 3 movies. The former is a great piece of fantasy film, the latter became a joke among even die-hard fans of the setting.
Forgeworld’s should be striving to emulate The Lord of the Rings with it’s Heresy rules, and leave Legolas’ adventures in Mordor to the Black Library.

This is sadly true, but hilarious(both Hobbit & LOTR).

The Hobbit being stretched into 3 movies was ridiculous. I could've bought maybe just 2 movies.

If you want a discrete narrative, you should really go read the BL novels. We are playing a game. The game is expanded and deepened by the (mostly) annual release of a big campaign book. Just because you know the narrative of the game has an end point does not mean you should be racing to get to that point.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Hobbit being stretched into 3 movies was ridiculous. I could've bought maybe just 2 movies.

It was ridiculous to split the book into 3 films but it worked out for the studio - the movies made 2.93 billion dollars. To be fair to Peter Jackson, he came on board way late in the process. Jackson spent years setting LotR trilogy up, where as he barely had a few months for the Hobbit trilogy. Beyond that, the actor's guild strike was also a huge problem that almost saw the production leave New Zealand, which is something Jackson was desperately fighting against.Had he been given the year or more he wanted to revise the script and set up the production, I am 100% sure all three films would have been at least as good as the weakest of the LotR movies.

 ingtaer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Just give two of them a snip

Why? The more topknots you have, the more powerful you are.

Is that why his sword got one as well? (yes, I know its a tassel)

Top knots are the new skulls.

And skulls are the old spikes.

And spikes are the new chains.

And chains are the old fleur d'liles.

 Crimson wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
If GW is doing the rules for 40k now, they really need to look at the FW indexes and update them. Especially Titans of all sorts.

I really don't understand why the main GW team cannot handle the rule side of the 40K things for the FW. The FW indexes were an utter garbage fire, and even if that hadn't been the case, for consistency's sake it is the best if each game has its own dedicated team that handles all rules for that game. FW guys can do the rules for HH and the specialist games.

At this point fw index armies for 40k are better off using an adapted Version of their previous list then the gakpile we have now that claims to be a index but in truth is just a pile of used toilet paper.

If gw did the rules for forge world we would end up with vastly over costed units in comparison to the standard 40k ones.... Oh wait, nevermind.

 Formosa wrote:
If gw did the rules for forge world we would end up with vastly over costed units in comparison to the standard 40k ones.... Oh wait, nevermind.

CA came knocking and demands a spike tax on your greater daemons.

They also got you for tax evasion.

 Alpharius wrote:
I would LOVE for them to do some Great Crusade books.

Back when the Primarchs and their Legions were all...er...good guys, and it would be a great way to introduce Xenos into 30K.

It would be awesome I tell ya, awesome!

Especially some Legion lists prior to the discovery of the Primarchs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedmeister wrote:
It is highly unlikely they'd go Great Crusade. If they do, it'll take someone with Alan Bligh's talent to really pull it off and they'd most likely focus on the most apocalyptic war - the Rangdan Xenocide. They wouldn't do Murder as that is, frankly, a backwater in comparison.

For something of that magnitude would it be better in epic scale to do it justice?

Most 40k FW index stuff looks like they are provided just for the sake of providing rules. However no one seems especially interested to see the point costs at any playable level, most are ridiculously overcosted.

But back on the general topic:
The supposed plan of 15-20-25 books for Horus Heresy is just silly, and I in general like 30k/HH more than 8th. To me this sounds more like a plan for some tv-show which basically is continued as long as level of profits generated is above certain minimum level, i.e. they will milk the setting as long as they can. So the final siege will probably be horrible rush job in the end, or alternatively we never see it because the setting is axed.

Ghorgul wrote:
Most 40k FW index stuff looks like they are provided just for the sake of providing rules. However no one seems especially interested to see the point costs at any playable level, most are ridiculously overcosted.

But back on the general topic:
The supposed plan of 15-20-25 books for Horus Heresy is just silly, and I in general like 30k/HH more than 8th. To me this sounds more like a plan for some tv-show which basically is continued as long as level of profits generated is above certain minimum level, i.e. they will milk the setting as long as they can. So the final siege will probably be horrible rush job in the end, or alternatively we never see it because the setting is axed.

Honestly I wouldn't mind them doing so many books IF they did it correctly. In my view correctly means focusing on the major events first, then use the additional books as side stories/campaign supplements. For example, my ideal layout would be:

This year release the Blood Angel/White Scar book, and at the end of this year release the Dark Angel/Dark Mechanicum books (my understanding is that originally the two books were combined, so a good chunk of the work should be done and thus this plan should be viable).

Then next Year (2020) release a Siege of Terra book. This way it coincides with the series, as releasing it as book number 20 or something will just kill hype.

After that I'd envision the extra black books as things like the Siege of Vraks- important in the fluff but not crucial to the story so waiting years upon years wouldn't be a problem. Heck one or more black book(s) could add xenos as an expansion, as it's only logical xenos would still be around and sometimes get in the way of both forces.

Heck one idea I'd love is some special event campaign like the Steel Confessors one, make some planet and have the players decide who controls it, and have this either coincide with or make a black book from the results.

R0bcrt wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:
Most 40k FW index stuff looks like they are provided just for the sake of providing rules. However no one seems especially interested to see the point costs at any playable level, most are ridiculously overcosted.

But back on the general topic:
The supposed plan of 15-20-25 books for Horus Heresy is just silly, and I in general like 30k/HH more than 8th. To me this sounds more like a plan for some tv-show which basically is continued as long as level of profits generated is above certain minimum level, i.e. they will milk the setting as long as they can. So the final siege will probably be horrible rush job in the end, or alternatively we never see it because the setting is axed.

Honestly I wouldn't mind them doing so many books IF they did it correctly. In my view correctly means focusing on the major events first, then use the additional books as side stories/campaign supplements.

I have to say that this seems like a much more viable plan, if FW was to do this. And it's not like the black books haven't jumped all around the timeline. They still wouldn't get to 20 books (assuming books similar in size, content and quality to the existing black books), but that way you're not asking customers to wait for a decade or two before reaching the conclusion of the series.

As lovely as the black books are I do feel the format has become a bit of a millstone around 30ks neck. The softback versions of the earlier books might help. But even then how much of book one's rules content is relevant to the current game? Already book seven has large sections that are getting outright replaced. IMO they should pivot the black books into being background focused with the rules content just covering campaigns, missions. environment rules and other universal stuff. Keep the army lists and core rules in the smaller format red books(or even Index style softbacks) that can be updated at a quicker pace and at less cost to gamers.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
As lovely as the black books are I do feel the format has become a bit of a millstone around 30ks neck. The softback versions of the earlier books might help. But even then how much of book one's rules content is relevant to the current game? Already book seven has large sections that are getting outright replaced. IMO they should pivot the black books into being background focused with the rules content just covering campaigns, missions. environment rules and other universal stuff. Keep the army lists and core rules in the smaller format red books(or even Index style softbacks) that can be updated at a quicker pace and at less cost to gamers.

The presence of new rules is a strong motivator for people to actually buy the expensive black books. Removing them would hobble the sales quite a bit. I would kind of prefer it if the rules and the fluff were separated into two books, sold together (like what GW did with the Space Wolf and Tau campaigns), that way I do not have to lug my black book around with me.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NL/Hvarl-Redblade-2019



https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NL/Space-Wolves-Legion-Deathsworn-Pack-2019

Those Deathsworn, awesome sauce.

 Ratius wrote:
Those Deathsworn, awesome sauce.

Aye, much better than the god awful Varagyr and the invert bolter Grey Slayers! Even the paint job is alright.