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 Sqorgar wrote:
I get it. Change is bad. Yeargh! Change! So frustrating!
.

No, but people purposefully misinterpreting valid concerns rather than engagement in adult conversation is.

"Valid concerns" my arse, this is ridiculous. CB has done the exact opposite of EVERY. SINGLE. OTHER. COMPANY.

Please, tell explain to me me how my all my Warmachine MKII units that were amazing and now suddenly in MKIII are utterly useless, that is is somehow better than ACA in N3 getting put on hiatus. Please tell me how my 8th edition 40K Wulfen who doubled in price and are less effective are better than ACA and MMRF. ACA and MRRF who have literally gotten rules UPGRADES before being retired. feth you, feth your saltiness, feth your self entitled ridiculousness, nothing's been Squatted and everything remains viable.

ACA and MRRF being retired aren't a great option, but they'r e a pretty amazing option compared to what EVERY. SINGLE. OTHER. GAMES. COMPANY. DOES.

It's a problem that every even mildly growing company is eventually going to face. For a miniature companies this is a more complex problem as various lines are intertwined to the product as a whole.

There are technical steps that can alleviate the problem and some were mentioned, but sooner or later, due to the game mechanics being changed or new profiles being a result of a new mindset, the older factions are going to feal it.

There will be products that are lower performing, saying that it's fine to remove them is a rather narrow way of looking at it. SAA for instance was part of the PanO, although neglected by CB, it has a decent number of player, if those charts are to be believed. Proportionally SAA might still form a larger entity than say MAF, QK or Shasvasti. Why not remove them, if sacrifices need to be made?

Nobody wants to see what they enjoy being cut off, neither is really productive to go along of "it's your turn to bear the cross". If sacrifices need to be made, please, don't try to sugar coat it how better for the rest is going to be.

For CB that is producer of its own miniature games IP they've found themselves in an uncomfortable situation. It doesn't help that they've decided to expand their own IP with the board game, that like its main game, is also bound to find itself in a similar problem as her parent game. Over time more characters will be introduced, certain character will be sold less, others more, the sum of them forming either a net win or a loss.

CB is likely going to start pondering what's so great about the Aristea! products that are their high runners and likely focus on their aesthetics and game mechanics and try to copy them. Certain products will also likely be removed or find themselves sharing a spot with their main game.

Round goes the wheel...

What Kalamdea said.

Squating is not what is happening. If you like the now oop sectorials you should have the models. If you do you can still play them. If you don't have the models you have a last chance to get them if you were putting it off.
If you don't have tge models and were not planning on getting them then why tge feth do you care, or are you crying thst a toy you've been ignoring is being put away?

Sure, not many people will play a oop sectorial. Not many people play them now though, that's the point. The suggestion that people will suddenly stop playing models they own already becuase they can't buy stuff they already have (even though they still have rules) in rather baffling.

 Kalamadea wrote:
Please, tell explain to me me how my all my Warmachine MKII units that were amazing and now suddenly in MKIII are utterly useless, that is is somehow better than ACA in N3 getting put on hiatus. Please tell me how my 8th edition 40K Wulfen who doubled in price and are less effective are better than ACA and MMRF. .

Should I want to buy those models, I can still buy them. New players can see the models, choose they want to play them regardless of rules and buy them. Want to play an army that got updated last year? Nope sorry

The removal of SAA isn't the issue, it's the possibility that they could take out any sectorial on a whim. When they did it to Merovingia, it was bad but they were an old range. We were led to believe it was because updates were too time consuming and weren't on the cards for that reason. SAA is almost entirely up to date models, and pretty recent updates, but they got pulled because they had 10 less players than MO at Interplanetario. 10 people. In terms of sales that really isn't much of a difference, and in terms of gaining new players the new sculpts are more appealing than the ancient NCA and MO lines (obviously with the exception of the limited new models).

CB are gaining a lot from the new sectorials, but they're still haemorrhaging players with these continued stupid decisions. With this latest announcement my group is dead, because it's abundantly clear that more and more CB don't give a damn about the player, only the customer

 Kalamadea wrote:
"Valid concerns" my arse, this is ridiculous. CB has done the exact opposite of EVERY. SINGLE. OTHER. COMPANY.

Please, tell explain to me me how my all my Warmachine MKII units that were amazing and now suddenly in MKIII are utterly useless, that is is somehow better than ACA in N3 getting put on hiatus. Please tell me how my 8th edition 40K Wulfen who doubled in price and are less effective are better than ACA and MMRF. ACA and MRRF who have literally gotten rules UPGRADES before being retired. feth you, feth your saltiness, feth your self entitled ridiculousness, nothing's been Squatted and everything remains viable.

ACA and MRRF being retired aren't a great option, but they'r e a pretty amazing option compared to what EVERY. SINGLE. OTHER. GAMES. COMPANY. DOES.

We're not talking about other games here, only Infinity. What GW or Privateer does doesn't really matter to people's reactions to what CB does.

Those things sound rather sucky, sorry your stuff got screwed but just because someone else does something similar or worse doesn't matter to this discussion. Also using one companies bad behavior to justify or excuses another companies bad behavior is kind of lame as they're all something that shouldn't be acceptable.

Don't you guys ever get tired of the constant outrage?

Games that go on a long time change. They have to. It has happened to every single one of them, and yup, it will continue to happen to every single one of them. Edition changes, products going out of print or being dropped, nerfs, rebalances, point changes, and so on. These things don't have to be the end of the world, and yet every time... you'd think that miniature games catered exclusively to Chicken Littles.

Yall need to accept that change happens. You won't always like it, but you need to at least understand that it is coming. Your cheese will be moved. A lot. Constantly. No matter what.

Sometimes you need a little bit of controlled fire to remove all the dry underbrush so that you don't end up with an out of control blaze destroying half of California later. Don't confuse the two. Losing SAA is a controlled fire. It is for the health and well being of the forest.

Be thankful for what you have, appreciate what you had, and look forward to what you will have.

I guess you can hate what you have, resent what you had, and look upon the future with suspicion and contempt - but I really don't think that's healthy.

 Sqorgar wrote:
Be thankful for what you have, appreciate what you had, and look forward to what you will have.

Or sell your stuff on eBay to buy all that cool new Kill Team stuff.

It's not outrage, it's a legitimate concern that CB really doesn't know how to handle thing. N# was supposed to fix everything, it didn't. They could have gracefully retired old SKUs (I meant sectorial) and made them direct only to appease their real customers retailers. Of course they could have sorted out there dizzy array of SKUs long before this, but... The JSA rebellion wasn't handled well from a player end customer stand point. We won't talk about the prerelease Aristeia card. And when ever someone complains to CB it is their cavalier attitude and flippant responses that make some wonder if this is a real business or just some bros out for the lulz.

CB has a history of brushing off legit concerns and saying trust us, we know what we are doing. History says otherwise.

N3 fixed quite a bit. Expecting it to fix everything was unrealistic. The Exrah units should have been given legacy profiles and classified as mercs. HSN3 added too much bloat.

The news about ASA however... I do want to see the official announcement about ASA. AS long as the sectorial remains viable, and playable in all situations, like ITS, I won't have a problem.

CB would do well to suggest "official" proxies too. Fusiliers for Regulars ( since they are a sort of fusilier anyway) with blue/green paint scheme instead of blue/light blue) and so forth.

 Sqorgar wrote:
I get it. Change is bad. Yeargh! Change! So frustrating!

I'm just having a hard time mustering up the outrage over something so predictable. SAA isn't that popular and it hasn't gotten nearly the support that most of the other sectorials haven't gotten. If you had to drop a sectorial from Infinity, it's the one to drop. Hell, I forgot it even existed for a while there. And so did you, and you know it.

No, the one to drop was NCA or Military Orders if sticking strictly in PanO.

SAA got a new Sectorial starter set in 2016 or 2017. They also got a brand new Bagh-Mari box and HMG---both of which are slated to retire.
NCA's starter set is a garbage hodgepodge of old stock(Aquila Guard with Multi Rifle, Hexa with Spitfire, Swiss Guard with ML) and the only way to get the non-Fusilier Core Link for the Sectorial(Bolts).
Military Order starter is just old.


YOU might not have remembered that they existed for a while, but a lot of other people didn't. Shock Army was frequently discussed over on the official forums as a good look at how a PanO Sectorial could be different while still retaining the core features of PanO. It was also frequently hailed as the 'best' PanO Sectorial because "it's like you're not even playing PanO!".
YOU might not have remembered that they existed for a while, but a lot of other people did and lamented the fact that the starter set was so wonky. It's 5 SWC for the box when the points total is 136. In case you don't believe me:

That put a lot of people off from the box, since it required two boxes to really be useful--and then you end up with dupes of some models you don't really ever need dupes of. Arguably a lot of people that were interested just went for Bagh-Mari box+HMG then got the standard PanO starter(since it includes the 'basic' Akali instead of a Hacker) and used the Fusiliers as Regulars, since it also gave them an ORC for the Duo that was a big deal for SAA.

CB is probably going to make some other changes to game in the near future. Just a warning. Don't want you to be blind sided again.

This isn't a change to the game though. This is them removing product from sale because of their own ineptitude when it comes to releasing stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Harvest wrote:
N3 fixed quite a bit. Expecting it to fix everything was unrealistic. The Exrah units should have been given legacy profiles and classified as mercs. HSN3 added too much bloat.

The news about ASA however... I do want to see the official announcement about ASA. AS long as the sectorial remains viable, and playable in all situations, like ITS, I won't have a problem.

CB would do well to suggest "official" proxies too. Fusiliers for Regulars ( since they are a sort of fusilier anyway) with blue/green paint scheme instead of blue/light blue) and so forth.

Simply put, Regulars suffer from Catachan syndrome. They were hyped up too much as their own thing when they could have been just variation uniforms or gear.

Regulars never really needed their own box or to be the main component in a SAA starter. They needed a few blisters at best, or maybe a single box with a few of their unique profiles. If they'd been given the same 'look' as normal Fusiliers? Then the normal PanO starter all of a sudden becomes even more appealing to SAA players.

Rygnan wrote:Should I want to buy those models, I can still buy them. New players can see the models, choose they want to play them regardless of rules and buy them. Want to play an army that got updated last year? Nope sorry

You haven't though. Considering that CB has thier own sales data, I'd bet not many new players were buying them either. With the new stuff they've brought out and all the other things in Infinity I don't think it's an actual problem.

CB are gaining a lot from the new sectorials, but they're still haemorrhaging players with these continued stupid decisions. With this latest announcement my group is dead, because it's abundantly clear that more and more CB don't give a damn about the player, only the customer

Seriously!? No one has or is losing anything orher than an option they didn't care about till it got retired.

Sqorgar wrote:Don't you guys ever get tired of the constant outrage?

Games that go on a long time change. They have to. It has happened to every single one of them, and yup, it will continue to happen to every single one of them. Edition changes, products going out of print or being dropped, nerfs, rebalances, point changes, and so on. These things don't have to be the end of the world, and yet every time... you'd think that miniature games catered exclusively to Chicken Littles.

I feel like negative Infinity players should go play some 40k, either they'll get some perspective or thier hunger for outrage will be much better met and echoed.

Chairman Aeon wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
Be thankful for what you have, appreciate what you had, and look forward to what you will have.

Or sell your stuff on eBay to buy all that cool new Kill Team stuff.

It's not outrage, it's a legitimate concern that CB really doesn't know how to handle thing. N# was supposed to fix everything, it didn't. They could have gracefully retired old SKUs (I meant sectorial) and made them direct only to appease their real customers retailers. Of course they could have sorted out there dizzy array of SKUs long before this, but... The JSA rebellion wasn't handled well from a player end customer stand point. We won't talk about the prerelease Aristeia card. And when ever someone complains to CB it is their cavalier attitude and flippant responses that make some wonder if this is a real business or just some bros out for the lulz.

CB has a history of brushing off legit concerns and saying trust us, we know what we are doing. History says otherwise.

Sure, go do that. The GW approach of ignoring things and letting power creep past it till no one plays it before retiring models is much better.
I doubt it's as easy to run a games company as some people here seem to think. How the feth do you know what tge best way is for them to run thier company? How the feth do you know thier capabilities or constraints?

The way they are retiring these lines seems graceful and sensible to me. As far as I can tell CB consider data, rather than what some negative people on the intermet when making decisions.
Not to mention that CB obviously want to keep things changing, but are considerate enough not to make mini's unplayable (recently). If you don't like it historical rulesets and mini's stay the same for decades at a time, try that instead.

They look at the ITS files and they claim to have sales data...but they can't, as they don't interface directly with every single retailer out there.

Additionally talking about "power creep" is lol. USARF is a new Sectorial and is being basically replaced by TAK. StarCo is doing the same thing to Bakunin and Corregidor. Druze makes QK look lackluster--and the list goes on and on and on.

Infinity is THE game for power creep. They don't tend to put new skills onto old stuff. Not until another edition drops.

 Sqorgar wrote:
Don't you guys ever get tired of the constant outrage?

Sure. It's why I'm pretty much done with CB for the time being. They cause the outrage and revel in it. And it's not just this one thing it's stuff that's been going on for quite sometime building up. Some recent stuff is:

They sign a contract for a 3rd party for an RPG where CB has to do approvals on everything and take months to review anything so the books are years behind.

Uprising. I wasn't even bothered as much as others as I'm a JSA player and I wanted them to braek from YJ but CB handeled poorly then made fun of those that had legiditame complaints about the figures they bough no longer being useable with Carlos on Facebook and in videos saying stuff like "if you're mad no wait till you see what we do next as Uprising was nothing. We really want to make people mad next time." That kind of crap is annoying and is one of the reasons I've stopped paying attention. Either apologize if you think you handeled wrong or don't say anything all. Bating people and turning a blind eye to valid complaints is dumb. Even saying something like "sorry, we realize this sucks for some Yu-Jing players but we realy needed to do this." would have been better then their main spokesperson basically laughing at their customers.

Now a complete dropping of an Army that has a bunch of new figures. You just can't trust now that if you're investing in a sectorial that it will ever get finished. If they just released everything for an army at over 2-3 months that would be one thing but CB likes to take a year or two to complete the models for what's in a book. And I'm sure Carlos will start making fun of people that have this complaint because that's CB's MO for that past while.

 Kanluwen wrote:
They look at the ITS files and they claim to have sales data...but they can't, as they don't interface directly with every single retailer out there.

Additionally talking about "power creep" is lol. USARF is a new Sectorial and is being basically replaced by TAK. StarCo is doing the same thing to Bakunin and Corregidor. Druze makes QK look lackluster--and the list goes on and on and on.

Infinity is THE game for power creep. They don't tend to put new skills onto old stuff. Not until another edition drops.

They do have absolute sales data as they make the stuff in the first place, sure some of it is sale to retailers and distributors which will hang around in warehouses & stores and never make it into consumers hands but that's going to be a minority (if only because distributors & stores won't reorder stuff that hasn't moved)

It doesn't matter how much people claim to want something, if it doesn't move from the shelves of the stores or direct from CB they're lying (or the price is too high, but that's a different issues and unless CB is playing with their margins on some lines but not others not really relevant)

 Kanluwen wrote:
Infinity is THE game for power creep. They don't tend to put new skills onto old stuff. Not until another edition drops.

That's just not true. New stuff is not the same as being more powerful.
The older sectorials can still compete. It's far from the newest codex being stronger, nor can one predict the winner of a game just from the matchup.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They look at the ITS files and they claim to have sales data...but they can't, as they don't interface directly with every single retailer out there.

Additionally talking about "power creep" is lol. USARF is a new Sectorial and is being basically replaced by TAK. StarCo is doing the same thing to Bakunin and Corregidor. Druze makes QK look lackluster--and the list goes on and on and on.

Infinity is THE game for power creep. They don't tend to put new skills onto old stuff. Not until another edition drops.

They do have absolute sales data as they make the stuff in the first place, sure some of it is sale to retailers and distributors which will hang around in warehouses & stores and never make it into consumers hands but that's going to be a minority (if only because distributors & stores won't reorder stuff that hasn't moved)

It doesn't matter how much people claim to want something, if it doesn't move from the shelves of the stores or direct from CB they're lying (or the price is too high, but that's a different issues and unless CB is playing with their margins on some lines but not others not really relevant)

In which case there are way better ways to frame your actions.

Instead of saying "We are no longer going to make X products ever again", say something like "We are going to cease regular production of X products. We may occasionally produce X products for limited runs at unspecified times."

Its not so much the message, but how it was framed and delivered, plus the general attitude problem they have sometimes. Same thing PP did when Mk3 was released. Acted all high and mighty, ignoring player concerns and then when the players concerns turned out to be valid(ALA: Skorne) they fell flat but never actually apologized.

Corvus Belli is still very much a tiny fish in a big pond. They cannot afford to piss of their customers. And that is exactly what they did in this case.

 DarkBlack wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Infinity is THE game for power creep. They don't tend to put new skills onto old stuff. Not until another edition drops.

That's just not true. New stuff is not the same as being more powerful.
The older sectorials can still compete. It's far from the newest codex being stronger, nor can one predict the winner of a game just from the matchup.

Competing is not the same as having the options. It literally is "the newest codex being stronger", and I can pretty confidently tell you that yes you can predict the winner of a game just from the matchup in these circumstances.

OrlandotheTechnicolored wrote:They do have absolute sales data as they make the stuff in the first place, sure some of it is sale to retailers and distributors which will hang around in warehouses & stores and never make it into consumers hands but that's going to be a minority (if only because distributors & stores won't reorder stuff that hasn't moved)

This is a fallacious argument. You're not factoring in that Corvus Belli can and does artificially limit the volume of production on items and they do encourage split boxing by retailers and third-parties.

It doesn't matter how much people claim to want something, if it doesn't move from the shelves of the stores or direct from CB they're lying (or the price is too high, but that's a different issues and unless CB is playing with their margins on some lines but not others not really relevant)

This isn't true. Shae-Konnit is an example of this as he makes a killing from split boxes, to a point where he won't sell certain items from boxes until the other stuff moves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

In which case there are way better ways to frame your actions.

Instead of saying "We are no longer going to make X products ever again", say something like "We are going to cease regular production of X products. We may occasionally produce X products for limited runs at unspecified times."

Its not so much the message, but how it was framed and delivered, plus the general attitude problem they have sometimes. Same thing PP did when Mk3 was released. Acted all high and mighty, ignoring player concerns and then when the players concerns turned out to be valid(ALA: Skorne) they fell flat but never actually apologized.

Corvus Belli is still very much a tiny fish in a big pond. They cannot afford to piss of their customers. And that is exactly what they did in this case.

The stupidest part is that they're trying to frame it as a production/SKU thing. I said from the outset with Shock Army that it should have been given a big army pack ala USARF or now the JSA. I genuinely feel they need to accept that some armies are going to cause SKU bloat and production issues by their very nature of requiring large numbers of models and profiles.

But nope. I clearly am just a disgruntled customer who can't be pleased. Not someone who gave a frig about the game from fairly early on and tried to be a productive commentator who then got burned by misleading information. Not that at all!

Can anyone provide some solid numbers on players using sectorials to back all this speculation up?

It seems like a lot of people complaining about a sub-faction they don’t even play, profiles they never use in Vanilla, and models that were never great at release getting discontinued.

I’m still not really convinced. The sectorial is fully fleshed out with N3 standard releases. They are not coming out of army builder. The models will be obtainable for some time. (You can still get MRRF stuff).

Don’t get me wrong, ASA is my preferred PanO sectorial. But, For a game that’s almost always tight urban combat, a bunch of jungle fighters like ASA felt out of place...

The only numbers we have are the one's CB has shared based off of ITS lists.

season 9



season 8

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The only numbers we have are the one's CB has shared based off of ITS lists.

season 9

Spoiler:

So according to this it was way more popular then JSA pre-uprising and that was known to be one of the best selling factions. So who knows really how played vs purchased correlate.


season 8

Spoiler:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Instead of saying "We are no longer going to make X products ever again"

That was never said.

To clear misinformation, there is rotating production, sectorials whose units leave production get a minor update, as far as gameplay go, to remain relevant with current meta and will get a proper review further down the line when they get reintroduced to production, maybe with resculpts (the current word is a couple of years, we will have to wait and see for that).

So
Sectorial units gets out of production
For current player this means:

Some quality of life improvements for their chosen sectorial

A proper revision further down the line

New miniatures and maybe units further down the line

For new players it does mean that there might be a scarcity of some units for a while but

The window of that seems to be small

The proxy rules are quite generous for new players to proxy and play the sectorial or its units while it is been reintroduced

There is a clear indication that a sectorial is not been worked on at the moment

Personally I am in favour of this rotational format, makes clear when a sectorial is not worked on and gives a minor revisions to old sectorials making them relevant with the current meta while they are been revised and, if the two years format is true, its not such a big gap that SKU are kept out of production.

Can the rotational production be done differently? probably? can it be tweaked? probably? do any of us have real data on the subject? no, we will have to wait and see, only information I have and see so far is FRRM veteran players be happy about it and FRRM been used again in the tournaments.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Instead of saying "We are no longer going to make X products ever again"

That was never said.

To clear misinformation, there is rotating production, sectorials whose units leave production get a minor update, as far as gameplay go, to remain relevant with current meta and will get a proper review further down the line when they get reintroduced to production, maybe with resculpts (the current word is a couple of years, we will have to wait and see for that).

So
Sectorial units gets out of production
For current player this means:

Some quality of life improvements for their chosen sectorial

A proper revision further down the line

New miniatures and maybe units further down the line

For new players it does mean that there might be a scarcity of some units for a while but

The window of that seems to be small

The proxy rules are quite generous for new players to proxy and play the sectorial or its units while it is been reintroduced

There is a clear indication that a sectorial is not been worked on at the moment

Personally I am in favour of this rotational format, makes clear when a sectorial is not worked on and gives a minor revisions to old sectorials making them relevant with the current meta while they are been revised and, if the two years format is true, its not such a big gap that SKU are kept out of production.

Can the rotational production be done differently? probably? can it be tweaked? probably? do any of us have real data on the subject? no, we will have to wait and see, only information I have and see so far is FRRM veteran players be happy about it and FRRM been used again in the tournaments.

Agreed. I don’t see cause for all the rage.
This was done already with Shas & after some time now, they will be back next year.

This will all be forgotten when Varuna, Shas, & IA drop.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Instead of saying "We are no longer going to make X products ever again"

That was never said.

To clear misinformation, there is rotating production, sectorials whose units leave production get a minor update, as far as gameplay go, to remain relevant with current meta and will get a proper review further down the line when they get reintroduced to production, maybe with resculpts (the current word is a couple of years, we will have to wait and see for that).

So
Sectorial units gets out of production
For current player this means:

Some quality of life improvements for their chosen sectorial

A proper revision further down the line

New miniatures and maybe units further down the line

For new players it does mean that there might be a scarcity of some units for a while but

The window of that seems to be small

The proxy rules are quite generous for new players to proxy and play the sectorial or its units while it is been reintroduced

There is a clear indication that a sectorial is not been worked on at the moment

Personally I am in favour of this rotational format, makes clear when a sectorial is not worked on and gives a minor revisions to old sectorials making them relevant with the current meta while they are been revised and, if the two years format is true, its not such a big gap that SKU are kept out of production.

Can the rotational production be done differently? probably? can it be tweaked? probably? do any of us have real data on the subject? no, we will have to wait and see, only information I have and see so far is FRRM veteran players be happy about it and FRRM been used again in the tournaments.

Fair enough if that is what is actually happening, but it needs to be communicated effectively.

A one armed chimp banging on a typewriter could have communicated that more effectively and better than what actually happened. An unfortunate trend with Corvus Belli(and other game companies too) is bad communication and antagonistic view of their customers.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Competing is not the same as having the options.

Competing is not the same as having options indeed; older stuff don't have the newly designed and exciting options, but can still compete. That was my point.

It literally is "the newest codex being stronger", and I can pretty confidently tell you that yes you can predict the winner of a game just from the matchup in these circumstances.

bs. Demonstrate or feth off.
Infinity is balanced quite well.

In which case there are way better ways to frame your actions.

Instead of saying "We are no longer going to make X products ever again", say something like "We are going to cease regular production of X products. We may occasionally produce X products for limited runs at unspecified times."

Unless it's mot viable for them to do that. That woukd be a lie and you would be whining about them bullshitting us.
Also, that not how it's framed anyway; it's been left open to update eventually.

PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Instead of saying "We are no longer going to make X products ever again"

That was never said.

Nothing official has been said. CB once again is not even trying to get ahead of a story and being stupid because they have "their timeframe" and just pretending nothing is going on. All we have is retailers being told these are going out of production/distribution.

Bladerunner2019 wrote:This was done already with Shas & after some time now, they will be back next year.

This will all be forgotten when Varuna, Shas, & IA drop.

So 5 year rotations? TBH Shas and MRRF are bad examples for this instance as they both were "suspended" rules wise (meaning mostly staying at N2 profiles) but the models didn't dissapear until 4+ years later for MRRF and Shas I don't think have ever gone away--at leats not all as there's a repack release for next month and I know many are avalibe in stores still. So MRRF wasn't really a shock when they discouniued the line as CB hand't done anything with it in years. What got people that I saw, at least, upset with that was CB killing them all off in the fluff. That's also got ASA people worried too, if CB kills that army off in the fluff too it's never coming back just like MRRF.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Instead of saying "We are no longer going to make X products ever again"

That was never said.

To clear misinformation, there is rotating production, sectorials whose units leave production get a minor update, as far as gameplay go, to remain relevant with current meta and will get a proper review further down the line when they get reintroduced to production, maybe with resculpts (the current word is a couple of years, we will have to wait and see for that).

So
Sectorial units gets out of production
For current player this means:

Some quality of life improvements for their chosen sectorial

A proper revision further down the line

New miniatures and maybe units further down the line

For new players it does mean that there might be a scarcity of some units for a while but

The window of that seems to be small

The proxy rules are quite generous for new players to proxy and play the sectorial or its units while it is been reintroduced

There is a clear indication that a sectorial is not been worked on at the moment

Personally I am in favour of this rotational format, makes clear when a sectorial is not worked on and gives a minor revisions to old sectorials making them relevant with the current meta while they are been revised and, if the two years format is true, its not such a big gap that SKU are kept out of production.

Can the rotational production be done differently? probably? can it be tweaked? probably? do any of us have real data on the subject? no, we will have to wait and see, only information I have and see so far is FRRM veteran players be happy about it and FRRM been used again in the tournaments.

This is what we were told about FRRM, which was an ancient line and badly needing resculpts. ASA did get resculpts, in 2016, and they're still being pulled over the oldest starters in the game. It's now a poor argument and doesn't hold, which is becoming the norm for CB (saying something to defend one bad move, then contradicting it or doing worse later)

On balancing, there are a lot of units that are strictly worse than others. Especially across factions, though I’ve been told that’s not a fair comparison.

CB is sort of in control of their own self fulfilling prophecy here. If a faction has overcosted, underpowered units or boring fire teams, then they won’t sell well. If they don’t have any new models this year, they won’t sell well. Because of that, they’ll be sent on vacation or even retired when CB could have updated their profiles or changed up their fireteams.

I would not at all be surprised if at the next big show they said “Tohaa isn’t popular enough anymore to warrant adding new units, so we’re going to retire part of the line instead” even though by the data quoted above they are the most popular faction and because of that data they took a whole year off? CB will present the data to justify whatever decision they make, regardless if that same reasoning contradicts another decision.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The only numbers we have are the one's CB has shared based off of ITS lists.

Spoiler:

season 9



season 8

As a note, we don't know whether or not this is lists that actually get taken in ITS events or just lists saved in Army. They have that information. This is a thing that they've admitted to having in the past and claimed that it drives their decisions as to what profiles actually see models.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Instead of saying "We are no longer going to make X products ever again"

That was never said.

Nothing official has been said. CB once again is not even trying to get ahead of a story and being stupid because they have "their timeframe" and just pretending nothing is going on. All we have is retailers being told these are going out of production/distribution.

Bladerunner2019 wrote:This was done already with Shas & after some time now, they will be back next year.

This will all be forgotten when Varuna, Shas, & IA drop.

So 5 year rotations? TBH Shas and MRRF are bad examples for this instance as they both were "suspended" rules wise (meaning mostly staying at N2 profiles) but the models didn't dissapear until 4+ years later for MRRF and Shas I don't think have ever gone away--at leats not all as there's a repack release for next month and I know many are avalibe in stores still. So MRRF wasn't really a shock when they discouniued the line as CB hand't done anything with it in years. What got people that I saw, at least, upset with that was CB killing them all off in the fluff. That's also got ASA people worried too, if CB kills that army off in the fluff too it's never coming back just like MRRF.

Nobody said they’re getting killed off in the fluff. They may not be specifically mentioned that much for a while. But Shas, MRRF, & now ASA will still be a part of the universe.
Unless they intend to advance the story & destroy Acontecimento outright I don’t see what you’re getting at.

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

Nobody said they’re getting killed off in the fluff. They may not be specifically mentioned that much for a while. But Shas, MRRF, & now ASA will still be a part of the universe.
Unless they intend to advance the story & destroy Acontecimento outright I don’t see what you’re getting at.

Shasvastii are in the process of getting redone. They were starting after Interplanetario...this has been known since Adepticon/GenCon.

FRRM was literally the only other army shelved alongside Shasvastii. Shasvastii are getting redone and FRRM are getting permashelved. Now Shock Army is getting the same treatment.