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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You absolutely can bring a necron model with an eldar or tau army.

You can't in Matched Play, but Matched Play is silly in a lot of other ways too, and you can't assume that 'miniature releases' only are targeted at Matched Play styles.

You play many games with mixed Necron and Eldar army? You play many Narrative or Open games? I don't know anyone, personally.

Regardless, my point is to explain the reasoning behind the dissatisfied feeling of those Tau, Necron and DEldar players.

 jeff white wrote:

Disappointed, in humanity generally and especially bizniz people, but not miserable.
Perfectly happy to point out the obvious to those blinded by the rose colored glasses.

Please, oh wise one, tell us more things so that we may grovel at your feet for scraps of your True Wisdom for we are truly Blind!

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
In my opinion, Tau should either have mobility or good shooting, but not both.

There is nothing more frustrating than playing against Tau. You will never catch them. If by some miracle you do, they'll just fly out of combat.

I really don't like Tau, at all. They're just not fun to play against.

The problem as it is now is that Tau don't really have good anything. They're a heavily dedicated shooting army with no melee, that can't win most fire fights, and their mobility is nearly non-existent after the loss of jump-shoot-jump. All jetpack models are now worse jump pack ones.

Although I can't help but find it amusing that you don't find it fun to play against. That's what I'm hearing now, and people are destroying my army without too much effort, unless I rely on the crutches that are commanders and drones. I've been playing Tau since fifth edition and not once before eighth have I ever have someone complaining about my army. But in eighth I basically have two options, win first turn through commanders hitting as much of the enemy line as possible... Or lose hard if I use any strategy aside from alpha strike. I want to play the game, not be shoehorned into one winning strategy with effectively one list.

Tau are a few stratagems, the equivalent of chapter tactics, away from being fantastic. I can almost guarantee you'll get a stratagem that allows you to deep strike and move, and another that allows you to jump-shoot-jump. Commanders are already amazing, Y'Varha is already amazing, drones are amazing. You just need some synergy and a few more viable units to make a complete army. Tau are not as bad off as people say.

 Marmatag wrote:


Tau are a few stratagems, the equivalent of chapter tactics, away from being fantastic. I can almost guarantee you'll get a stratagem that allows you to deep strike and move, and another that allows you to jump-shoot-jump. Commanders are already amazing, Y'Varha is already amazing, drones are amazing. You just need some synergy and a few more viable units to make a complete army. Tau are not as bad off as people say.

To honor your avatar, Hahahahahah. Oh you're serious. Let me laugh harder, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Ultimately i agree, a few "chapter tactics" a few point shuffles, an altered marker light table/seeker missiles (basically our only source of mortal wounds, though with Custodes having no source of mortal wounds, we may not get them) could help. our plasma if nothing really needs to not be double nerfed.

Tau are a few stratagems from being "tournament fantastic". They are abhorrent from a internal balance perspective.

I'll hope for a Tyranid style codex.

And for shooting armies I always tought:

Long range, High Number of Shoots, Low mobility, High Strenght of shooting: Imperial Guard.
Short Range, High Number of Shots, High Mobility, Low Streenght of Shooting: Craftworld Eldar.
Medium/Long Range, Medium Number of Shoots, Medium Mobility, Medium Strenght of Shooting: Tau Empire.

With Imperial Guard being the more horde, Tau the medium, and Eldar being elite. Of course that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to be played in different ways like a mechanized veteran Guard List or a high movile, short range Tau Suit list. But I believe the core principles in general of the factions should be those I have said, IMHO.

 Marmatag wrote:

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
In my opinion, Tau should either have mobility or good shooting, but not both.

There is nothing more frustrating than playing against Tau. You will never catch them. If by some miracle you do, they'll just fly out of combat.

I really don't like Tau, at all. They're just not fun to play against.

The problem as it is now is that Tau don't really have good anything. They're a heavily dedicated shooting army with no melee, that can't win most fire fights, and their mobility is nearly non-existent after the loss of jump-shoot-jump. All jetpack models are now worse jump pack ones.

Although I can't help but find it amusing that you don't find it fun to play against. That's what I'm hearing now, and people are destroying my army without too much effort, unless I rely on the crutches that are commanders and drones. I've been playing Tau since fifth edition and not once before eighth have I ever have someone complaining about my army. But in eighth I basically have two options, win first turn through commanders hitting as much of the enemy line as possible... Or lose hard if I use any strategy aside from alpha strike. I want to play the game, not be shoehorned into one winning strategy with effectively one list.

Tau are a few stratagems, the equivalent of chapter tactics, away from being fantastic. I can almost guarantee you'll get a stratagem that allows you to deep strike and move, and another that allows you to jump-shoot-jump. Commanders are already amazing, Y'Varha is already amazing, drones are amazing. You just need some synergy and a few more viable units to make a complete army. Tau are not as bad off as people say.

Strong disagree. I don't play Tau, but play against them often (my b/f plays them) and, even with him bringing a few commanders, it's to the point where I have to try and make the games even so it's at least sporting. Feelsbadman.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Strong disagree. I don't play Tau, but play against them often (my b/f plays them) and, even with him bringing a few commanders, it's to the point where I have to try and make the games even so it's at least sporting. Feelsbadman.

What're you bringing?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They are getting similar level of support to several imperial armies. But oh yeah they are xenos so they deserve special attention.

There are imperial armies who would be jealous of necron release support. Including ones with already codex.

That's a fair point and less a strawman.

The difference is that Dark Eldar can't just ally with Necrons if they like the look of the new Cryptek model unlike all of the Imperium armies. That's the issue, if I want to run the sexy new Primaris with my IG, I can within the rules. Xenos don't have this luxury.

Not sure which Imperial armies would be jealous of the single Necron model? Grey Knights maybe?

All Marines have had Primaris and lieutenants for specific Angels.

IG had Marbo of all things.

AdMech get their mini Knight.

Custodes are all new.

What army do you think would be jealous of the single, monopose, new xeno model.

Ah yes post-codex release means it's same as getting with codex. Lol.

Also mini knight is actually for knight army rather than ad mech and LOT AFTER codex. So dark eldars not getting model while ad mech then got mini knight? Well let's see on december then. After all ad mech didn't get model with codex either.

Stratagems and chapter tactics make or break a codex.

Those of you thinking Tyranids got a top to bottom remodel are wrong. A few units and guns got changed, but not by much. The twin devourer with brainleech worms was a big change, as was the 5++ to a 4++ for flying hive tyrant.

But our true strength lies in stratagems and Hive Fleet tactics. Most of the units in my army were completely unchanged in the codex in regards to their statline.

Consider:

If Grey Knights codex had done this:

Chatper Tactic: Psybolt Ammunition. Increase the strength by 1, and ap by -1, for Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, Psycannons, Heavy Psycannon, Psilencers, and Gatling Psilencers.

Give them a stratagem, cast a power - other than smite - twice this turn.
Another stratagem: Use when a GK unit shoots. Any wound roll of 6 also deals a mortal wound.
Yet another: Use in the psychic phase. In place of casting psychic powers, a GK unit may immediately pile in and fight.
Here's another: Deep strike mastery: 3cp - a Grey Knights unit may immediately move after deep striking.

Additionally, alter rites of banishment such that Grey Knight smite deals D3 mortal wounds instead of 1.

Warlord Trait: Master of the Warp. Your warlord rolls 1 dice to deny psychic powers and always denies on a 4+.

None of these change points, and the statline of the models is essentially unchanged.

Would the army be strong?

Deadawake1347 wrote:
I'm normally not one for Doom and gloom, but the Tau codex announcement actually has me rather worried. I'm probably reading far too much into it, but it seems very much like they're addressing concerns from outside rather than inside.

By which I mean the "good news, everyone" announcement is that commander spam will be addressed. Not that Tau are getting a solid look over to make sure things work right, not that they'll be making commanders act like... Actual commanders instead of suicidal assassins. It seemed very much like assuring non Tau players that they won't have to worry about it anymore, rather than assuring Tau players they can actually play something else at higher levels.

Because, there's two big ways to "address commander spam", increase the effectiveness of the rest of the army so that they're not entirely reliant on the crutch that commanders have become, or reduce the effectiveness of commanders so that they're not taken... I fear that if they do the later without at least doing a bit of both, that there won't be any reason to play Tau at all. I mean, they're already a highly specialized shooting army that can be outgunned by several other factions.

But... Here's hoping I'm just paranoid and reading far too much into the statement.

This is the problem with them seemingly listening exclusively to the tournament crowd and thinking that is the outside world.

 Marmatag wrote:
Stratagems and chapter tactics make or break a codex.

Those of you thinking Tyranids got a top to bottom remodel are wrong. A few units and guns got changed, but not by much. The twin devourer with brainleech worms was a big change, as was the 5++ to a 4++ for flying hive tyrant.

But our true strength lies in stratagems and Hive Fleet tactics. Most of the units in my army were completely unchanged in the codex in regards to their statline.

Consider:

If Grey Knights codex had done this:

Chatper Tactic: Psybolt Ammunition. Increase the strength by 1, and ap by -1, for Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, Psycannons, Heavy Psycannon, Psilencers, and Gatling Psilencers.

Give them a stratagem, cast a power - other than smite - twice this turn.

Additionally, alter rites of banishment such that Grey Knight smite deals D3 mortal wounds instead of 1.

Warlord Trait: Master of the Warp. Your warlord rolls 1 dice to deny psychic powers and always denies on a 4+.

Would the army be strong?

I vote no, still would be too easy to drown their 20 models in surviving fire

No concept of balance, spoiled by 7th. <-- most of the Tau community.

We're not asking for 7th ed riptides to be our army. We want internal balance (a reason to bring any unit, even if not quite as mathematically good, just not so wildly inferior it may as well have been squatted), and preferably a competitive codex near SM, CSM and Tyranids.

tneva82 wrote:
Ah yes post-codex release means it's same as getting with codex. Lol.

Also mini knight is actually for knight army rather than ad mech and LOT AFTER codex. So dark eldars not getting model while ad mech then got mini knight? Well let's see on december then. After all ad mech didn't get model with codex either.

The only person bringing the codex into this discussion is you. It is irrelevant whether the models were released with the codex, before or after. It has absolutely no bearing.

Please tell me about these Imperial armies that are "jealous" of the single model that's been released for a xenos faction? I'm really interested to know. I suspect you have no answer though, because there isn't really one, because your argument is nonexistent.

Do you really want me to count the new Imperial models, then do the new Chaos models, then the new Xenos ones? So you can see clearly why some people are annoyed?

 Marmatag wrote:
No concept of balance, spoiled by 7th. <-- most of the Tau community.

You get annoyed when in SM related threads people talks about how "Space marine players this and that", and how they were spoiled and now that the army requires skill to play the complaint. Don't do that to others, please, you are better than that.

That, and marines historically do require skill to play because low model counts are super unforgiving.

Tau need some love for sure, but they also need some restrictions on commander spam. Or for the commander to not be magically 2+ to hit, which is 2 better than the average Tau.

Wait, 'figure from a long-lost past'....?

Are they finally getting around to bringing Vect back?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Wait, 'figure from a long-lost past'....?

Are they finally getting around to bringing Vect back?

It was about Morathi for AoS.

 Galas wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
No concept of balance, spoiled by 7th. <-- most of the Tau community.

You get annoyed when in SM related threads people talks about how "Space marine players this and that", and how they were spoiled and now that the army requires skill to play the complaint. Don't do that to others, please, you are better than that.

(Advance warning: They only stopped the endless refrain of "Eldar players have no concept of balance" at me when I called the mods on them. Engaging directly doesn't work well if you're trying to get them to stop.)

 pumaman1 wrote:
We're not asking for 7th ed riptides to be our army. We want internal balance (a reason to bring any unit, even if not quite as mathematically good, just not so wildly inferior it may as well have been squatted), and preferably a competitive codex near SM, CSM and Tyranids.

All high wound, 2+ save models are expensive in 8th. Perhaps too much so, but that's the design philosophy today. I wouldn't expect huge drops on the riptide.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Wait, 'figure from a long-lost past'....?

Are they finally getting around to bringing Vect back?

It was about Morathi for AoS.

Darn. I might have pulled my Eldar back out if it was Vect.

 pumaman1 wrote:
We're not asking for 7th ed riptides to be our army. We want internal balance (a reason to bring any unit, even if not quite as mathematically good, just not so wildly inferior it may as well have been squatted), and preferably a competitive codex near SM, CSM and Tyranids.

Exactly. Crisis suits and broadsides, specifically, need some loving imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
That, and marines historically do require skill to play because low model counts are super unforgiving.

I don't know, that Skyhammer mess that permeated last edition had a pretty decent model count. Or all of the free razorbacks/rhinos...

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
We're not asking for 7th ed riptides to be our army. We want internal balance (a reason to bring any unit, even if not quite as mathematically good, just not so wildly inferior it may as well have been squatted), and preferably a competitive codex near SM, CSM and Tyranids.

Exactly. Crisis suits and broadsides, specifically, need some loving imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
That, and marines historically do require skill to play because low model counts are super unforgiving.

I don't know, that Skyhammer mess that permeated last edition had a pretty decent model count. Or all of the free razorbacks/rhinos...

Yeah, they do.

Martel732 wrote:
That, and marines historically do require skill to play because low model counts are super unforgiving.

Tau need some love for sure, but they also need some restrictions on commander spam. Or for the commander to not be magically 2+ to hit, which is 2 better than the average Tau.

While I feel like the commanders of an army who's sole focus is shooting should be able to boast a 2+, I couldn't agree more with the notion that they should bring some kind of ability to the table that indicates them calling the shots and not just being great suicide drops. If that means price hikes or restrictions on wargear that's fine.

That aside I'm pretty excited to see the new codex on the way and can't wait for some insights/previews. Maybe this wave of dex's will shake up the local meta a bit!

Maybe commanders get 3+ to hit, but gear options that boost their shooting or help squads a choice.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe commanders get 3+ to hit, but gear options that boost their shooting or help squads a choice.

I would be very happy if the Commander was a 3+ to hit, and gave +1 to hit for friendly units (possibly just suits or whatever) within 6".

Help offaet that sweet, sweet Tau BS of 4+ a bit, and than you would have to run the Commanders WITH something. Be less of an obvious high damage suicide drop unit.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe commanders get 3+ to hit, but gear options that boost their shooting or help squads a choice.

Like maybe an advanced targeting system improves by by 1 (and costs for it) instead of 1 better ap.. as you know... its targets in a better more advanced way.. Not a structural analyzer like darkstrider, which would make more sense to be ap-1 (or -1 T on marked by Darkstrider himself still)

Huzzah, some Xenos love at last!

Now just do the damn Orks please GW.....

 Ratius wrote:
Huzzah, some Xenos love at last!

Now just do the damn Orks please GW.....

2nded, BUT would you accept a 1 month delay if they did SoB First?

I hope Tau won't be one-dimensionally focused on shooting with the new codex. Because that is often what makes them boring to play against. One-dimensional factions are not fun.
I was secretly hoping for some new Kroot or other auxiliary units. I still want to get an army made up of many different Kroot units supported by some big battlesuits and fire warriors one day.

Also really excited for what the DE dex is going to bring.