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Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Prove it. I can prove they're not. Neophyte Hybrids are the same statline as a Guardsman but with LD7/8(Guardsmen are 6/7 when their Sergeant is alive). Neophytes are 5ppm.

They don't have a codex yet. Bad comparison.

Guardsmen didn't change in points or stats from the Index to Codex; perfectly reasonable comparison.

Punishers are S5 AP0 D1 with a 24" range.

It's a fricking Boltgun with Heavy 20 that, if staying below a certain Movement Value, gets to fire its turret weapon twice. If a Punisher is OP then christ, what you must think of Tactical Marine spam!

Slow down there.

LRBT with PGC is 150. 40 S5 shots, 20 hits, 13 wounds vs MEQ.

150 points is 12 marines at best. Even if they were in double tap range...they come in way less...24 shots, 16 hits, 8 wounds

Both those units have the same number of wounds. One has T8 though.

Marines are BS3+ while a LRBT is 4+ degrading over time.
Also a LRBT with 'just' a PGC isn't 150. It's 122 for a LRBT and 20 for a PGC. That's 142 plus you're required to have a Hull Mounted Weapon, which is a HB, Lascannon, or HF.
To get to that 150, it factors in the 8pts for the HB which doesn't benefit from Grinding Advance.


How about we split the difference and compare them to a Strike Team of Fire Warriors equipped with Pulse Carbines(Assault 2 18" with S5 AP0 D1)?
A full 12 model Strike Team Squad costs you 96points before adding in any gubbins and it fires 24 shots at 18" with BS4+. The 18" puts you about equivalent with a LRBT that takes advantage of Grinding Advance at full Wounds(half or less of 10" move being 5 or less; 24-5=19").

 Kanluwen wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Guardsman are 5ppm models, full stop.

Prove it. I can prove they're not. Neophyte Hybrids are the same statline as a Guardsman but with LD7/8(Guardsmen are 6/7 when their Sergeant is alive). Neophytes are 5ppm.

Punisher Heavy40 tanks are not ok either - in fact, there's a fair number of other Guard things that are also a bit over the top.

Punishers are S5 AP0 D1 with a 24" range.

It's a fricking Boltgun with Heavy 20 that, if staying below a certain Movement Value, gets to fire its turret weapon twice. If a Punisher is OP then christ, what you must think of Tactical Marine spam!

Is Guard the only faction that has overperforming/underpriced units? No. They're also not the only faction going to get nerfed.

Until we see Dark Reapers or Guilliman or Assault Cannon Razorbacks or Mortarion or Magnus get MEANINGFUL nerfs? Yeah. We kinda are.
Guilliman went up 25 points...14.4% of his initial points cost.
A Primaris Psyker went from 28 to 38ppm.

Just because XYZ is nerfed multiple times in a row does NOT mean it's not warrented - sometimes it really is.

By that same vein, sometimes XYZ is nerfed multiple times in a row because someone thinks it's the problem--but it isn't.

Seriously, try to look at this game through a non-imperial/non-biased lens; some things ARE overperforming, or underpriced - faction is irrelevant with these facts. It's not the end of the world if your army gets nerfed - it feels like it sucks, but if it's better for the game's health; so be it. I'd rather have them attempt to make a balanced game than cater to everyone's emotional whims.

Then I expect Dark Reapers to get nerfed into the fething GROUND. They should get nerfed so fething hard they come out of the other side of the planet. They should get nerfed so hard they never show back up in a list until 10th edition.

I mean, if we want to talk about things that are "overperforming and underpriced"...that's where you fething start to look.

Jesus. I think once we are at the point we are calling for an edition and a half worth of nerfing to make up for the last 3 months of feelbad moments we are beyond the point of rational discussion. Enjoy playing what is arguably the 1st/2nd most powerful faction in the game, despite those horrendously overpriced 5ppm troops though. I hope you can still find enjoyment in the rest of 8th.

The problem isn't guard in guard only armies. It's guard in every imperial army that wants a cheap battalion.

Others have said it but it bears repeating. 30-60 more points in a soup list makes you reconsider bringing those 30-60 guardsmen to make that cheap battalion (MSU guard would be 50 points a pop vs 55 points for scouts) at 40 vs 55 it was a no brainier at 50 vs 55 I'm not so sure it's an auto include (says the guy who has 30 scouts and has held off on the compulsion to buy a guard battalion so my bias may be showing).

I'm also betting they do something about cheap ass mortars as well. I'm guessing units that showed up in every soup list are on the chopping block and those seem like the biggest outliers to me (not a lot of soup lists focus around LRBTs or Shadowswords although can knights please get some love because vs the tanks they are completely over-priced and I really need an excuse to buy one or two)

 Galas wrote:
Guys, they nerfed Brimstones increasing their price 50%. They survived.

And then they moved their 4++ to a 6++. And Chaos players said "yeah, that's fair".

God, can you imagine the screaming if they gave guardsmen 6+ armor?

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Guys, they nerfed Brimstones increasing their price 50%. They survived.

And then they moved their 4++ to a 6++. And Chaos players said "yeah, that's fair".

God, can you imagine the screaming if they gave guardsmen 6+ armor?

Actually I'd be fine with that. I'd rather nerf their offensive output than defensive capabilities (Str 2 lasguns would be fun and fluffy, I think), but it's better than a points increase.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I'm not actually upset that GW is trying to balance the game. I'm a bit upset that they're crowdsourcing the balance to the community, though.

You're making an assumption here, which allows you to easily wash your hands of any possible problems simply because you disagree with the change.

What assumption am I making? Would you argue that GW is not balancing things based on community input?

We have no way of knowing their decision process, but I can almost guarantee it isn't "Community suggests rule/point change => GW does it".

There might also be some survivorship bias and clearly many in the community disagreed with CA changes.

As it stands this is just a scapegoat.

I'd reeee a lot harder if lasguns were made S2 than if flak armor was made a 6+ save.

I don't think you understand: brimstones points went up and their invuln got nerfed. And they're still generally considered a good unit to take if you want easy CP and sheer body count.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I'm not actually upset that GW is trying to balance the game. I'm a bit upset that they're crowdsourcing the balance to the community, though.

You're making an assumption here, which allows you to easily wash your hands of any possible problems simply because you disagree with the change.

What assumption am I making? Would you argue that GW is not balancing things based on community input?

We have no way of knowing their decision process, but I can almost guarantee it isn't "Community suggests rule/point change => GW does it".

There might also be some survivorship bias and clearly many in the community disagreed with CA changes.

As it stands this is just a scapegoat.

We have no way of knowing it? I'm fairly certain they've made a huge point about how in 8th edition they're taking "community input" and yadda yadda in several Warhammer Community articles and the Facebook page. If that's untrue, then maybe I fabricated it all in my head, but I swear they mentioned somewheres that they were taking input from the community when making decisions.

Arachnofiend wrote:I don't think you understand: brimstones points went up and their invuln got nerfed. And they're still generally considered a good unit to take if you want easy CP and sheer body count.

That's fine. What if you didn't want easy CP and to up your body count, and instead wanted your army to be good?

I mean, sheer body count is one of the ways to make your army good in 8th. Thus guardsmen being too strong for their cost.

In a world where Conscripts are 4ppm, Infantry have to be more expensive.

Conscripts should never have been 3ppm, the same cost as Grots for an infinitely better unit. Particularly at their main function, shielding expensive, killy stuff.

5ppm is fine.

The nerfs to Guard are getting blown way, waaay out of proportion and I suspect (though I have no evidence to back this up), the only nerf that was probably too far (Commissars) will be corrected in time, just as GW are correcting Infantry now.

1) 5 ppm for Guard infantry is very fair. They are still some of the best troops out there.

2) The commissar was way overnerfed. This will need to be corrected in some way.

3) Guard still has arguably the best tanks in the game and the most points-efficient psyker in the game. Unit for unit Guard will remain at the absolute top.

4) Guard as a whole is not at the absolute top. There are some things that Guard players are really struggling with.

5) Tournament games where objectives can be scored on every round requires movement, and the resulting penalties to shooting hurts guard a lot more than it hurts other armies.

6) The current meta of stacking unit-specific negative hit modifiers on top of army-wide negative hit modifiers is extremely damaging to Guard. You see a LOT of Alaitoc and Alpha Legion at tournaments, and there is very little Guard can do about it. A single -1 to hit pretty much forces non-Tallarn Guard list to remain stationary.

The Changeling has already been nerfed, and now The Alaitoc, Alpha Legion and Ravenguard chapter tactics needs a good nerf too.

Imperial Guard players keep banging the drum like theres some conspirancy agaisnt them, when Chaos has received as many nerfs as Imperial Guard, but they didn't received as many buffs as them from Index to Codex.

Guys, things are gonna get nerf, others are gonna get buff. If we are gonna have forum tantrums like these every FAQ this are gonna get repetitive very fast. This will end like MOBA forums with "OMG THEY KILLED X HERO" whenever they touch it in any patch.

pismakron wrote:
1) 5 ppm for Guard infantry is very fair. They are still some of the best troops out there.

2) The commissar was way overnerfed. This will need to be corrected in some way.

3) Guard still has arguably the best tanks in the game and the most points-efficient psyker in the game. Unit for unit Guard will remain at the absolute top.

4) Guard as a whole is not at the absolute top. There are some things that Guard players are really struggling with.

5) Tournament games where objectives can be scored on every round requires movement, and the resulting penalties to shooting hurts guard a lot more than it hurts other armies.

6) The current meta of stacking unit-specific negative hit modifiers on top of army-wide negative hit modifiers is extremely damaging to Guard. You see a LOT of Alaitoc and Alpha Legion at tournaments, and there is very little Guard can do about it. A single -1 to hit pretty much forces non-Tallarn Guard list to remain stationary.

The Changeling has already been nerfed, and now The Alaitoc, Alpha Legion and Ravenguard chapter tactics needs a good nerf too.

/thread.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Prove it. I can prove they're not. Neophyte Hybrids are the same statline as a Guardsman but with LD7/8(Guardsmen are 6/7 when their Sergeant is alive). Neophytes are 5ppm.

They don't have a codex yet. Bad comparison.

Guardsmen didn't change in points or stats from the Index to Codex; perfectly reasonable comparison.

That still doesn't necessarily mean that GSC will or will not have changes. It's fully unknown to us currently. And there are other factors to consider.

Marines are BS3+ while a LRBT is 4+ degrading over time.
Also a LRBT with 'just' a PGC isn't 150. It's 122 for a LRBT and 20 for a PGC. That's 142 plus you're required to have a Hull Mounted Weapon, which is a HB, Lascannon, or HF.
To get to that 150, it factors in the 8pts for the HB which doesn't benefit from Grinding Advance.

Right and my math didn't even factor in the HB, but accounted for the BS difference. And that was IF they were in RF range.

How about we split the difference and compare them to a Strike Team of Fire Warriors equipped with Pulse Carbines(Assault 2 18" with S5 AP0 D1)?
A full 12 model Strike Team Squad costs you 96points before adding in any gubbins and it fires 24 shots at 18" with BS4+. The 18" puts you about equivalent with a LRBT that takes advantage of Grinding Advance at full Wounds(half or less of 10" move being 5 or less; 24-5=19").

Wut?

PGC becomes a 29.9" gun with grinding advance.

Even a straight 19 of them with 38 shots won't match up.

fe40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Guardsman are 5ppm models, full stop.

Prove it. I can prove they're not. Neophyte Hybrids are the same statline as a Guardsman but with LD7/8(Guardsmen are 6/7 when their Sergeant is alive). Neophytes are 5ppm.

Grots are S2/T2/BS4+/SV6+/LD4, at 3ppm. For 1ppm, you get +1S, +1T, +1SV, +6/7LD, plus 12" Range//+1 shot on the Guardsman Lasgun; that's before access to orders or regiments. Don't underestimate how much stronger having a 5+ makes your units, especially at such a cheap PPM.

But there's something to be said about Grots in general; they're probably overpriced to begin with - I'd probably drop them to 2PPM, and shift the 10/30 point cost onto the Runtherd unit; that leaves them as a cheapo screening unit, that dies in droves (T/LD) to anything that looks it's way as well as morale kills, but allows them to have more staying power if the Ork player takes a Runtherd (at cost).

Look, 4ppm for SV5+, BS4+, Lasgun, orders/regiments; it's a fantastic value. I'll come back with more comparisons later.

Look, 3ppm for a unit that is strictly intended as a meatshield.

Now if you want to argue that Conscripts should have been built like that to justify their 3ppm? I'm fine with that.

Punisher Heavy40 tanks are not ok either - in fact, there's a fair number of other Guard things that are also a bit over the top.

Punishers are S5 AP0 D1 with a 24" range.

It's a fricking Boltgun with Heavy 20 that, if staying below a certain Movement Value, gets to fire its turret weapon twice. If a Punisher is OP then christ, what you must think of Tactical Marine spam!

Heavy 20/40 on a T8 chassis with BS4+, that can be improved/buffed (regiments, tank commander, orders); all for pretty cheap. It murders any infantry squad it comes across, and at no real cost, each turn. Plus, it requires the enemies precious anti-tank resources to really deal with it which diverts fire away from more important units.

I wouldn't say that 150 points "is no real cost". Additionally, Regimental rules don't always apply the same way. Tank Commanders are a dedicated HQ choice and Orders cannot be given to a LRBT except by a Tank Commander which has 3 Tank Orders that it can give, issuing 1 order per turn per Tank Commander to a single tank within 6" of the Tank Commander.
Pask gets to issue 2x Tank Orders per turn, rather than 1.

The only Tank Order that is really applicable is "Gunners, Kill On Sight!" allowing you to reroll Hit Rolls of 1s.

What other factions get that amount of firepower, for that amount of points? This is a legitimate question - I'm curious. Maybe Tyranid Termagaunts?

A 12 man Strike Team is able to output 24 shots a turn for 96 points when equipped with Pulse Carbines at 18".
A 12 man Strike Team is able to output 24 shots a turn at 96 points when equipped with Pulse Rifles at 15" or less.
Put a Fireblade into the mix(39 points) and they get to do an additional shooting attack with their weapon while within 6" of the Fireblade if the target is within half of their weapons' range.

That means that a 12 man Strike Team is outputting 48 shots a turn for 139 points at 9" for Pulse Carbines and 48 shots a turn for Pulse Rifles at 15" or less.
The Fireblade also adds in a Markerlight Counter potentially for whatever the target unit is firing at.

I'm sure there are more possible options that's just one I know for sure since I've been working on a Tau list lately.

 Galas wrote:
Imperial Guard players keep banging the drum like theres some conspirancy agaisnt them, when Chaos has received as many nerfs as Imperial Guard, but they didn't received as many buffs as them from Index to Codex.

Guys, things are gonna get nerf, others are gonna get buff. If we are gonna have forum tantrums like these every FAQ this are gonna get repetitive very fast. This will end like MOBA forums with "OMG THEY KILLED X HERO" whenever they touch it in any patch.

Haha, I already said I don't have much of a problem with it. But this is a discussion forum, so I am discussing.

And it already feels like a MOBA forum, what with people complaining that single-target one-tick abilities are more powerful than easily-used AOE abilities that are always on.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Guys, they nerfed Brimstones increasing their price 50%. They survived.

And then they moved their 4++ to a 6++. And Chaos players said "yeah, that's fair".

God, can you imagine the screaming if they gave guardsmen 6+ armor?

Actually I'd be fine with that. I'd rather nerf their offensive output than defensive capabilities (Str 2 lasguns would be fun and fluffy, I think), but it's better than a points increase.

You can stop talking now, thanks. Not everyone wants to run Superheavies.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Guys, they nerfed Brimstones increasing their price 50%. They survived.

And then they moved their 4++ to a 6++. And Chaos players said "yeah, that's fair".

God, can you imagine the screaming if they gave guardsmen 6+ armor?

Actually I'd be fine with that. I'd rather nerf their offensive output than defensive capabilities (Str 2 lasguns would be fun and fluffy, I think), but it's better than a points increase.

You can stop talking now, thanks. Not everyone wants to run Superheavies.

Why not? They're awesome.

EDIT:
Just kidding, of course. I know people's opinions can be different, yadda yadda. Mine's different from yours, that's not a reason to tell me to shut up.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Guys, they nerfed Brimstones increasing their price 50%. They survived.

And then they moved their 4++ to a 6++. And Chaos players said "yeah, that's fair".

God, can you imagine the screaming if they gave guardsmen 6+ armor?

Actually I'd be fine with that. I'd rather nerf their offensive output than defensive capabilities (Str 2 lasguns would be fun and fluffy, I think), but it's better than a points increase.

You can stop talking now, thanks. Not everyone wants to run Superheavies.

Why not? They're awesome.

EDIT:
Just kidding, of course. I know people's opinions can be different, yadda yadda. Mine's different from yours, that's not a reason to tell me to shut up.

Saying you'd be fine with S2 Lasguns is like me saying I'd be fine with S6 Volcano Cannons.

It's a fething joke that won't affect me in any realistic way. The only acceptable way for Lasguns to get knocked down from their pathetic S3 is for them to get an AP of -1 or a range increase to 30".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Guys, they nerfed Brimstones increasing their price 50%. They survived.

And then they moved their 4++ to a 6++. And Chaos players said "yeah, that's fair".

God, can you imagine the screaming if they gave guardsmen 6+ armor?

Actually I'd be fine with that. I'd rather nerf their offensive output than defensive capabilities (Str 2 lasguns would be fun and fluffy, I think), but it's better than a points increase.

You can stop talking now, thanks. Not everyone wants to run Superheavies.

Why not? They're awesome.

EDIT:
Just kidding, of course. I know people's opinions can be different, yadda yadda. Mine's different from yours, that's not a reason to tell me to shut up.

Saying you'd be fine with S2 Lasguns is like me saying I'd be fine with S6 Volcano Cannons.

It's a fething joke that won't affect me in any realistic way. The only acceptable way for Lasguns to get knocked down from their pathetic S3 is for them to get an AP of -1 or a range increase to 30".

I mean, strength 6 is a little extreme. Strength 10 is more reasonable, or even strength 8. I don't really like strength 16 as it sits, because it so vastly overshadows the other variants.

So... I agree?

S2 would basically be more of a buff for Marines (only getting wounded on 6s) than anything. I mean basic guard shooting would do half as many wounds against T4/T5 and frankly that's just silly.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
S2 would basically be more of a buff for Marines (only getting wounded on 6s) than anything. I mean basic guard shooting would do half as many wounds against T4/T5 and frankly that's just silly.

That was actually my thought process. Marines need a buff, and guard are too good. You can hit two birds with one stone with strength 2 lasguns, while still allowing them to wound everything in the game (something they've never been able to do before) and actually self-nerf, because a Strength 2 AP0 weapon is still fairly good against other guard (compared to against t4 or above infantry).

It's also an indirect buff to Orks.

Actually S2 lasgun would be a big nerf to guard since it's at one of the sweet spots where its shots are more point efficient at killing base guardsmen (even at 4ppm) then SM at 13 ppm. About 81% as efficient in a vacuum to be precise.

Marines are dead. Don't cry for them. The basic marine statline is unbalanceable.
LONG LIVE OUR NEW PRIMARIS OVERLORDS. They are actually balanceable.

Theres no point in bringing basic marines in balance conversations just like theres no point in talking about grey knights. They are a disaster from a design standpoint. They need a rewrite from the ground up. And they have received one: Primaris.

Unit1126PLL wrote:actually self-nerf, because a Strength 2 AP0 weapon is still fairly good against other guard (compared to against t4 or above infantry).

Earth127 wrote:Actually S2 lasgun would be a big nerf to guard since it's at one of the sweet spots where its shots are more point efficient at killing base guardsmen (even at 4ppm) then SM at 13 ppm. About 81% as efficient in a vacuum to be precise.

 BlackLobster wrote:
I really don't understand the problem with "soup" armies. Whether it be Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari, they are extremely in keeping with the fluff. If those players want to play them and break elements of the game... well fine, you don't have to play against them.

Plus, it's nothing new. Allies ran rampart in 7th editions.

 Galas wrote:
Marines are dead. Don't cry for them. The basic marine statline is unbalanceable.
LONG LIVE OUR NEW PRIMARIS OVERLORDS. They are actually balanceable.

Theres no point in bringing basic marines in balance conversations just like theres no point in talking about grey knights. They are a disaster from a design standpoint. They need a rewrite from the ground up. And they have received one: Primaris.

As bait-tastic as this post seems, it's basially not wrong. Primaris DO fix basically everything about Marines. Mainly by giving the units focus. Focusing on shooting OR assault goes a looooong way towards making Marines more playable, especially in the current edition. They need more melee units though.

There are no GK primaris marines (yet).

Since most people are saying that the point increase to guardsmen is really designed to effect soup players rather than guard players why not just say that guardsmen cost +1ppm if the warlord in your army isn't AM and/or if they are in a detachment with non AM models?

That way soup players may be effected but mono AM players aren't.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Instead, however, people that haven't adapted (for whatever reason, I get that some people simply can't) to the new edition and new books are allowed to dictate policy so long as they scream loud enough. It's easier to nerf guardsmen by 25% (by upping their cost) than it is to discover the unique and interesting ways that the tourney players (who no doubt had to kick some Astra Militarum ass to win LVO) have figured out to cope with the problem.

Is that really the case, though? It seems perhaps to be accurate, but how do we know exactly what feedback and in what context GW bases their decisions on? If they directly observe large tournaments like LVO and such, does whining really have anything to do with it, or is it based on what actually plays out on the tabletop?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
There are no GK primaris marines (yet).

Since most people are saying that the point increase to guardsmen is really designed to effect soup players rather than guard players why not just say that guardsmen cost +1ppm if the warlord in your army isn't AM and/or if they are in a detachment with non AM models?

That way soup players may be effected but mono AM players aren't.

It's easier to just outright bump their points then force weird stipulations people will just find ways around.