March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf

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**Galas**

Kanluwen wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
I think guards being 5ppm is a fair price.

Guardsman 5ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6/5+

Termagant 4ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/5/6+

Increasing the cost on the model by 1 point seems correct for having a better ld and a better save.

Not when you factor in Neophyte Hybrids:
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/7(8)/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+
Or the initial points cost of Conscripts:
6/5/5/3/3/1/1/4/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+

Going up above LD6 seems to be valued at 1ppm(not factoring in a Sergeant model) while it requires you to go from a 5+ to a 4+ in Armor or BS, with WS only coming into play if you have a CCW OR if you are S4+ as Infantry, to cost a point.

You want Guardsmen at 5ppm, you're giving me something in exchange. End of goddamned story. Either I'm getting a 4+ armor save, LD7/8, or a Vox-Caster is included in the unit's point cost.

You keep saying that but the reality is that you compare 4ppm guardsmen with any kind of cheap infantry and they are much superior to all of them. Point per point infantry squads are superior to any unit in the game that cost 9 points or less (Maybe Daemon infantry is comparable after their Codex, I can't say for sure). Only Ork Boyz's are comparable, because they are very good in meele, but at the moment you factor how easy is to kill ork boyzs that cost 50% more with their 6+ save, Guardsmen comes ahead.

And you can't give prices to stat increases out of context of the unit. Going from +1 in WS doesn't cost the same for a Terminator than for a Grot.
I'll give you that it would be better to make this kind of changes after everybody has a codex. Then balance can be more fine tuned. But even then you don't need for everybody to have a Codex to know that dark reapers are busted.

**Unit1126PLL**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:

Guard has a Codex and Cult doesn't. RE-OPEN STORY.

And they could get point changes, too. It's really not worth considering right now.

And those point changes could be up or down. So we should probably consider the status quo, if we're just talking about model stats.

Also, when it comes to synergy, who pays? The models being synergized or the models that are the locus of the synergy? I thought Psykers paid to be Psychic, not the armies that included Psykers paying because they might get buffed by the psyker...

**KurtAngle2**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
I think guards being 5ppm is a fair price.

Guardsman 5ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6/5+

Termagant 4ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/5/6+

Increasing the cost on the model by 1 point seems correct for having a better ld and a better save.

Not when you factor in Neophyte Hybrids:
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/7(8)/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+
Or the initial points cost of Conscripts:
6/5/5/3/3/1/1/4/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+

Going up above LD6 seems to be valued at 1ppm(not factoring in a Sergeant model) while it requires you to go from a 5+ to a 4+ in Armor or BS, with WS only coming into play if you have a CCW OR if you are S4+ as Infantry, to cost a point.

You want Guardsmen at 5ppm, you're giving me something in exchange. End of goddamned story. Either I'm getting a 4+ armor save, LD7/8, or a Vox-Caster is included in the unit's point cost.

You get fuckton of sinergies and Cult doesn't. END OF STORY

Guard has a Codex and Cult doesn't. RE-OPEN STORY.

No. Cult will NEVER EVER get something like Orders/Regimental Tactics/Imperium sinergy and that does not rely on being in a Index as of now

**Marmatag**

Guardsmen also come with a rapid fire 24" gun, termagants have a 12" fleshborer. Wargear has to be considered, too. As well as upgrade options... call me when i can put a mortar on termagants.

**Lance845**

Kanluwen wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
I think guards being 5ppm is a fair price.

Guardsman 5ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6/5+

Termagant 4ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/5/6+

Increasing the cost on the model by 1 point seems correct for having a better ld and a better save.

Not when you factor in Neophyte Hybrids:
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/7(8)/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+
Or the initial points cost of Conscripts:
6/5/5/3/3/1/1/4/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+

Going up above LD6 seems to be valued at 1ppm(not factoring in a Sergeant model) while it requires you to go from a 5+ to a 4+ in Armor or BS, with WS only coming into play if you have a CCW OR if you are S4+ as Infantry, to cost a point.

You want Guardsmen at 5ppm, you're giving me something in exchange. End of goddamned story. Either I'm getting a 4+ armor save, LD7/8, or a Vox-Caster is included in the unit's point cost.

The initial point costs of conscripts doesn't matter. You have the current point costs of conscripts. ALSO, you get a a ld 7. Your sergeant comes with it for the same cost and increases the entire units ld by extension. finally, it's super cool that your sitting on the internet making demands and claiming "End of goddamned story" but your shouting into the wind. It's not the end of the story and your going to get what GW gives you and if you don't like it you can always quit.

**Kanluwen**

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
I think guards being 5ppm is a fair price.

Guardsman 5ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6/5+

Termagant 4ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/5/6+

Increasing the cost on the model by 1 point seems correct for having a better ld and a better save.

Not when you factor in Neophyte Hybrids:
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/7(8)/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+
Or the initial points cost of Conscripts:
6/5/5/3/3/1/1/4/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+

Going up above LD6 seems to be valued at 1ppm(not factoring in a Sergeant model) while it requires you to go from a 5+ to a 4+ in Armor or BS, with WS only coming into play if you have a CCW OR if you are S4+ as Infantry, to cost a point.

You want Guardsmen at 5ppm, you're giving me something in exchange. End of goddamned story. Either I'm getting a 4+ armor save, LD7/8, or a Vox-Caster is included in the unit's point cost.

You get fuckton of sinergies and Cult doesn't. END OF STORY

Acolyte Iconward's Nexus of Devotion--Roll a D6 each time a friendly Genestealer Cults Infantry model within 6" of this model loses a wound; on a 6 the Wound is ignored.
Sacred Cult Banner: Reroll failed Morale Tests in that same 6".
Magus makes it so each friendly GSC unit within 6" of them get to deny one psychic power that targets them during that phase as if they were themselves a Psyker.
Patriarch: Autopass Morale tests within 6".
Primus: Add 1 to all hit rolls in the Fight phase for GSC units within 6".
And the whole time that is happening, any GSC character within 3" of any friendly Genestealer Cult Infantry units get to allocate wounds to them on a 4+(slaying the model present).

So yeah, I can issue Orders to my Guardsmen...while you have passive auras that grant you things instead. I'd also highly suggest you go read Chapter Approved's stuff for GSCs because it seems like they're on track to be a fairly nice army assuming they don't get nerfed to be in line with Guard.

**Maxim C. Gatling**

Daedalus81 wrote:
[spoiler]
Maxim C. Gatling wrote:

It's a nice thought but then you need to rework all the aura abilities and the costs of those models along with the edge cases that work, because they have layered saves. And then deal with the inevitable griping of how GW is making a cash grab to force you to buy the D10s.

I wouldn't mind such a thing, but I just don't see it happening very easily.

I thought that would be the case, but I don't think so. (with just those changes I suggested). You see, the % comes out roughly the same. Now, if you start doing stuff like saying "I want Movie Marines" and adjusting their stats outside those boundaries I suggested, then yes, you would have to adjust the points values.

My point is, it can be done and done fairly easily. You wouldn't have to change everything to d10. Or at least not right away. Special Abilities could use the exact same mechanics they do now. In fact, I think that if they did this (they won't!) but if they did...they should only change the core mechanics for one edition and then ease the rest into d10's. Or not. There's no reason why you can't mix d6 and d10. Everyone who plays has a bucket of d6's already and almost everyone who games has at least a handful of d10. D10 are cheap (unless you insist on getting GW branded d10's which are out of production, but super-cool with an Inquisition symbol for the '1' pip...)

You know what? I'm going to go so far as to say they shouldn't make it all d10. I don't think one person on this forum would disagree with me when I say I hate it when GW changes the rules just to force you to buy all-new stuff.

It's a lovely pipe-dream though.

**KurtAngle2**

Kanluwen wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
I think guards being 5ppm is a fair price.

Guardsman 5ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6/5+

Termagant 4ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/5/6+

Increasing the cost on the model by 1 point seems correct for having a better ld and a better save.

Not when you factor in Neophyte Hybrids:
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/7(8)/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+
Or the initial points cost of Conscripts:
6/5/5/3/3/1/1/4/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+

Going up above LD6 seems to be valued at 1ppm(not factoring in a Sergeant model) while it requires you to go from a 5+ to a 4+ in Armor or BS, with WS only coming into play if you have a CCW OR if you are S4+ as Infantry, to cost a point.

You want Guardsmen at 5ppm, you're giving me something in exchange. End of goddamned story. Either I'm getting a 4+ armor save, LD7/8, or a Vox-Caster is included in the unit's point cost.

You get fuckton of sinergies and Cult doesn't. END OF STORY

Acolyte Iconward's Nexus of Devotion--Roll a D6 each time a friendly Genestealer Cults Infantry model within 6" of this model loses a wound; on a 6 the Wound is ignored.
Sacred Cult Banner: Reroll failed Morale Tests in that same 6".
Magus makes it so each friendly GSC unit within 6" of them get to deny one psychic power that targets them during that phase as if they were themselves a Psyker.
Patriarch: Autopass Morale tests within 6".
Primus: Add 1 to all hit rolls in the Fight phase for GSC units within 6".
And the whole time that is happening, any GSC character within 3" of any friendly Genestealer Cult Infantry units get to allocate wounds to them on a 4+(slaying the model present).

So yeah, I can issue Orders to my Guardsmen...while you have passive auras that grant you things instead. I'd also highly suggest you go read Chapter Approved's stuff for GSCs because it seems like they're on track to be a fairly nice army assuming they don't get nerfed to be in line with Guard.

Are you really comparing the number of buffs GSC gets to Astra Militarum/Imperium ones? AHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHA

**Kanluwen**

Galas wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
I think guards being 5ppm is a fair price.

Guardsman 5ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6/5+

Termagant 4ppm
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/5/6+

Increasing the cost on the model by 1 point seems correct for having a better ld and a better save.

Not when you factor in Neophyte Hybrids:
6/4/4/3/3/1/1/7(8)/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+
Or the initial points cost of Conscripts:
6/5/5/3/3/1/1/4/5+ vs 6/4/4/3/3/1/1/6(7)/5+

Going up above LD6 seems to be valued at 1ppm(not factoring in a Sergeant model) while it requires you to go from a 5+ to a 4+ in Armor or BS, with WS only coming into play if you have a CCW OR if you are S4+ as Infantry, to cost a point.

You want Guardsmen at 5ppm, you're giving me something in exchange. End of goddamned story. Either I'm getting a 4+ armor save, LD7/8, or a Vox-Caster is included in the unit's point cost.

You keep saying that but the reality is that you compare 4ppm guardsmen with any kind of cheap infantry and they are much superior to all of them. Point per point infantry squads are superior to any unit in the game that cost 9 points or less (Maybe Daemon infantry is comparable after their Codex, I can't say for sure). Only Ork Boyz's are comparable, because they are very good in meele, but at the moment you factor how easy is to kill ork boyzs that cost 50% more with their 6+ save, Guardsmen comes ahead.

Sorry, you can't compare Index to Codex ones. That's what people keep telling me.

Also, way to set weirdly specific limitations. How many armies out there have units "that cost 9 points or less"?

And you can't give prices to stat increases out of context of the unit. Going from +1 in WS doesn't cost the same for a Terminator than for a Grot.

I literally did the math earlier in this thread, based around the initial point values given for the Guard stuff. I absolutely can give prices to the stat increases because my math actually added up when I showed it in comparison to Tactical Marines(which have remained unchanged).

**Lance845**

Once again, initial point values have no value. Point values are in constant flux now. We can expect changes to them at least 3 times a year at this point.

What a unit cost 8 months ago is meaningless to the balance in costs today.

**Unit1126PLL**

Actually, Sororitas are 9 points per model, we can use them.

+1 BS, +2 save, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Shield of Faith, Act of Faith, synergize with Celestine, Synergize with Ministorum Priests, Synergize with the rest of the Imperium stuff people are so upset about...

**Daedalus81**

Kanluwen wrote:

Sorry, you can't compare Index to Codex ones. That's what people keep telling me.

Also, way to set weirdly specific limitations. How many armies out there have units "that cost 9 points or less"?

Cultists.

6 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3 / 1 / 1 / 6 / 6+
6 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3 / 1 / 1 / 7 / 5+

Options for ONE Heavy Stubber or Flamer in 10 instead of TWO heavies in 10 PLUS a PG.
No ML, LC, HB, AC, Mortar, PG, or MG.
No orders.
Limited benefits available via army trait.
A few good stratagems.
Support characters far more expensive.

**Polonius**

I'm not overly upset about infantry going to 5ppm. For most IG players, myself included, that's 60 points out of list. I'm not mad about it, although the constant stream of nerfs is a bit demoralizing.

My only hope is that GW looks at the points increases for both Infantry Squads and Conscripts, and brings back summary execution in it's original form.

I'll also point out to anybody listening that pointing out how good IG are with FRF!SRF! is always misleading, because it requires a character to give that order. Assuming you run company commanders (and why wouldn't you, bring the need to fill out cheap brigades) you're paying another 15 points for that order, and an otherwise not very useful character.

**Asmodai**

Audustum wrote:
I believe, when the Indices first came out, there were reports that the play testers played very differently to us. Specifically, that their meta evolved past hordes fairly quickly, while ours has not.

This could be because some nerf or change GW made in the meantime broke our natural progression or it could be because they were in a bubble. Who knows.

Didn't the playtest version have Chapter/Regiment traits work on the army level rather than the detachment level?

That alone would pretty much explain why the "Obligatory Minimal Guard Battalion" wasn't omnipresent in their games.

**Galas**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Actually, Sororitas are 9 points per model, we can use them.

+1 BS, +2 save, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Shield of Faith, Act of Faith, synergize with Celestine, Synergize with Ministorum Priests, Synergize with the rest of the Imperium stuff people are so upset about...

And they are a very good unit. Now compare point per point how they compare with a 4ppm Infantrymen. You can apply all those sinergies if you want. Guardsmen will come ahead because 2W with 5+ in two models is better than one model with 1W and 3+. The same goes for 24" Rapid Fire 1 S4 vs 18" Rapid Fire 1 S3 X2, even with the BS3+ vs BS4+.

From 7th to 8th edition, Guardsmen have become MUCH more resilient. S5 (Heavy bolters, Heavy flamers) no longers wound them in 2+. No longers leave them without a save (They have a 6+ agaisnt those weapons. This is a good thing of course, for models to actually have saves, but thats something that should be masured). And they droped from 5ppm to 4ppm.
At the same time the new wounding mechanics greatly helps their offensive outpot. Their 5+ save in a 4ppm model is something only 3-4 units in the game have.

As others have said, its better to get used to point changes 2-3 times a year. Thats a good thing. I doubt IG will be the only ones nerfed this FAQ, and I doubt they ONLY will be nerfed. Probably some of the weakest IG units will be buffed.

**Kanluwen**

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Are you really comparing the number of buffs GSC gets to Astra Militarum/Imperium ones? AHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHA

Do you even know how the Guard book works?

Serious question. Because 6" is the same bubble that is required for me to issue an Order. I have a finite number of Orders per Officer(barring a Cadian Officer who can, on a 4+, add a second unit to their Order), and each unit can only benefit once from an Order barring a Relic that allows for two Orders to the same unit on a 4+.
For your GSC, you get to tag as many models/units(the wording varies for GSC abilities) as you can fit in that 6".

I can get a 6+ Invulnerable Save with Celestine and her Geminae in 6" of Astra Militarum units, I can get ignoring Morale from Inquisitors or Custodes Vexilia within 6", I can get rerolls on Hit rolls of 1 and failed Morale tests along with +1 to Advance and Charge rolls for things in 12" of Guilliman...that's about all I can come up with off the top of my head.
But just so we're clear? That requires:
2 HQs, 1 LOW, and 1 Elite.

**KurtAngle2**

Kanluwen wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:

Are you really comparing the number of buffs GSC gets to Astra Militarum/Imperium ones? AHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHA

Do you even know how the Guard book works?

Serious question. Because 6" is the same bubble that is required for me to issue an Order. I have a finite number of Orders per Officer(barring a Cadian Officer who can, on a 4+, add a second unit to their Order), and each unit can only benefit once from an Order barring a Relic that allows for two Orders to the same unit on a 4+.
For your GSC, you get to tag as many models/units(the wording varies for GSC abilities) as you can fit in that 6".

I can get a 6+ Invulnerable Save with Celestine and her Geminae in 6" of Astra Militarum units, I can get ignoring Morale from Inquisitors or Custodes Vexilia within 6", I can get rerolls on Hit rolls of 1 and failed Morale tests along with +1 to Advance and Charge rolls for things in 12" of Guilliman...that's about all I can come up with off the top of my head.
But just so we're clear? That requires:
2 HQs, 1 LOW, and 1 Elite.

Except all your "single target" buffs are much more powerful since they increase the damage output of guard BY ALOT instead of giving really situational buffs (only Patriarch/Primus ones are arguably good but remember that you're paying 73/150 pts for giving THAT BUFF, not fething 30 point)

**Unit1126PLL**

Galas wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Actually, Sororitas are 9 points per model, we can use them.

+1 BS, +2 save, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Shield of Faith, Act of Faith, synergize with Celestine, Synergize with Ministorum Priests, Synergize with the rest of the Imperium stuff people are so upset about...

And they are a very good unit. Now compare point per point how they compare with a 4ppm Infantrymen. You can apply all those sinergies if you want. Guardsmen will come ahead because 2W with 5+ in two models is better than one model with 1W and 3+. The same goes for 24" Rapid Fire 1 S4 vs 18" Rapid Fire 1 S3 X2, even with the BS3+ vs BS4+.

From 7th to 8th edition, Guardsmen have become MUCH more resilient. S5 (Heavy bolters, Heavy flamers) no longers wound them in 2+. No longers leave them without a save (They have a 6+ agaisnt those weapons. This is a good thing of course, for models to actually have saves, but thats something that should be masured). And they droped from 5ppm to 4ppm.
At the same time the new wounding mechanics greatly helps their offensive outpot. Their 5+ save in a 4ppm model is something only 3-4 units in the game have.

Well, we can do the math versus a single Tactical Marine or versus eachother.

Tactical Marine shot by two guardsmen in rapid fire:
4 shots, 2 hits, 0.67 wounds, 0.22 past saves
Tactical Marine shot by an SOB in rapid fire:
2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.67 wounds, 0.22 past saves.

Identical.

Tactical marine shooting at two guardsmen in rapid fire:
2 shots, 1.33 hits, .89 wounds, .59 past saves.
Tactical Marine shooting at an SOB in rapid fire:
2 shots, 1.33 hits, .89 wounds, .3 past saves.

Also identical, given that the guard have twice as many models and they suffer twice as much wounds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KurtAngle2 wrote:Except all your "single target" buffs are much more powerful since they increase the damage output of guard BY ALOT instead of giving really situational buffs (only Patriarch/Primus ones are arguably good but remember that you're paying 73/150 pts for giving THAT BUFF, not fething 30 point)

Unit1126PLL wrote:And it already feels like a MOBA forum, what with people complaining that single-target one-tick abilities are more powerful than easily-used AOE abilities that are always on.

**Ordana**

I said it when the index came out.
I said it when the codex came out.
The entire army is(was) basically undercosted.

gakky infantry models like guardsman becomes a lot more durable in 8th edition, both in isolation and when compared to others (like marines)

**Unit1126PLL**

Ordana wrote:
I said it when the index came out.
I said it when the codex came out.
The entire army is(was) basically undercosted.

gakky infantry models like guardsman becomes a lot more durable in 8th edition, both in isolation and when compared to others (like marines)

Weird. Their durability per point (at least against boltguns) is strangely identical to Adepta Sororitas, or at least roughly identical given that guardsmen aren't 4.5 points.

**Quickjager**

I'm waiting for mortar team nerfs, I see every TOURNAMENT GK list taking a smattering of them and I know I'm not insane in recognizing their point efficiency and range.

**Kanluwen**

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Except all your "single target" buffs are much more powerful since they increase the damage output of guard BY ALOT instead of giving really situational buffs (only Patriarch/Primus ones are arguably good but remember that you're paying 73/150 pts for giving THAT BUFF, not fething 30 point)

You pay 73/150 points for those buffs--but you also get a 4+ chance to shunt wounds over onto your GEQ models in 3".

Those "single target buffs" are also caveated. FRFSRF only applies to Lasguns and Hellguns, Take Aim only does reroll hit rolls of 1(unless you're Cadians--in which case if you get Take Aim AND have stayed still that turn, it's reroll all Hits), and Bring It Down is reroll Wound rolls of 1.

How in the feth is that "increasing the damage output of guard BY ALOT instead of giving really situational buffs"?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:
I'm waiting for mortar team nerfs, I see every TOURNAMENT GK list taking a smattering of them and I know I'm not insane in recognizing their point efficiency and range.

I'd just like to see Mortars get shuffled into being a Heavy Weapons Team only option. I'd be 100% okay with that. There'd be no ablative Guardsmen for that.

**pismakron**

Ordana wrote:
I said it when the index came out.
I said it when the codex came out.
The entire army is(was) basically undercosted.

That is simply not true. Le Man Russ tanks were not very good with the index, and Chimeras still have a hard time getting their points back.

**LunarSol**

Guard are definitely worth 5 ppm at their current stats. They're just not worth that at BS 5+

**KurtAngle2**

Kanluwen wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:

Except all your "single target" buffs are much more powerful since they increase the damage output of guard BY ALOT instead of giving really situational buffs (only Patriarch/Primus ones are arguably good but remember that you're paying 73/150 pts for giving THAT BUFF, not fething 30 point)

You pay 73/150 points for those buffs--but you also get a 4+ chance to shunt wounds over onto your GEQ models in 3".

Those "single target buffs" are also caveated. FRFSRF only applies to Lasguns and Hellguns, Take Aim only does reroll hit rolls of 1(unless you're Cadians--in which case if you get Take Aim AND have stayed still that turn, it's reroll all Hits), and Bring It Down is reroll Wound rolls of 1.

How in the feth is that "increasing the damage output of guard BY ALOT instead of giving really situational buffs"?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:
I'm waiting for mortar team nerfs, I see every TOURNAMENT GK list taking a smattering of them and I know I'm not insane in recognizing their point efficiency and range.

I'd just like to see Mortars get shuffled into being a Heavy Weapons Team only option. I'd be 100% okay with that. There'd be no ablative Guardsmen for that.

Do you realise he's untargetable and that rule does not generally apply unless he's in CQC?

**Unit1126PLL**

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:

Except all your "single target" buffs are much more powerful since they increase the damage output of guard BY ALOT instead of giving really situational buffs (only Patriarch/Primus ones are arguably good but remember that you're paying 73/150 pts for giving THAT BUFF, not fething 30 point)

You pay 73/150 points for those buffs--but you also get a 4+ chance to shunt wounds over onto your GEQ models in 3".

Those "single target buffs" are also caveated. FRFSRF only applies to Lasguns and Hellguns, Take Aim only does reroll hit rolls of 1(unless you're Cadians--in which case if you get Take Aim AND have stayed still that turn, it's reroll all Hits), and Bring It Down is reroll Wound rolls of 1.

How in the feth is that "increasing the damage output of guard BY ALOT instead of giving really situational buffs"?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:
I'm waiting for mortar team nerfs, I see every TOURNAMENT GK list taking a smattering of them and I know I'm not insane in recognizing their point efficiency and range.

I'd just like to see Mortars get shuffled into being a Heavy Weapons Team only option. I'd be 100% okay with that. There'd be no ablative Guardsmen for that.

Do you realise he's untargetable and that rule does not generally apply unless he's in CQC?

Today I learned that not only do snipers not exist but also that maneuvering to target enemy characters is also impossible. And that rules which can apply against snipers and clever tactical maneuvering actually only work in CC.

weird.

**Kanluwen**

LunarSol wrote:
Guard are definitely worth 5 ppm at their current stats. They're just not worth that at BS 5+

I disagree.

GW, with CA, decided that a 6/4/3/3/3/1/1/6/4+ with a 6+ Invulnerable Save and an army-wide Aura is worth 7ppm(Skitarii Rangers) and 8ppm when they get a Mortal Wound aura(Vanguard) and with a sliding scale of 5-10 models while taking 2 Specials at the minimum or 3 at the maxium.
Going from 5+ to 4+ is 'valued' at 1ppm. Going from BS 4 to 3 is 'valued' at 2ppm.

You want Guard at 5ppm, you're giving me something in return. Not when Rangers are spammable at 7ppm and Vanguard at 8ppm.

**Galas**

Kanluwen wrote:
LunarSol wrote:
Guard are definitely worth 5 ppm at their current stats. They're just not worth that at BS 5+

I disagree.

GW, with CA, decided that a 6/4/3/3/3/1/1/6/4+ with a 6+ Invulnerable Save and an army-wide Aura is worth 7ppm(Skitarii Rangers) and 8ppm when they get a Mortal Wound aura(Vanguard) and with a sliding scale of 5-10 models while taking 2 Specials at the minimum or 3 at the maxium.
Going from 5+ to 4+ is 'valued' at 1ppm. Going from BS 4 to 3 is 'valued' at 2ppm.

You want Guard at 5ppm, you're giving me something in return. Not when Rangers are spammable at 7ppm and Vanguard at 8ppm.

You have a functional Codex wheres Adeptus Mechanicus does not. Isn't that enough?

**Quickjager**

Kanluwen wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:

Except all your "single target" buffs are much more powerful since they increase the damage output of guard BY ALOT instead of giving really situational buffs (only Patriarch/Primus ones are arguably good but remember that you're paying 73/150 pts for giving THAT BUFF, not fething 30 point)

You pay 73/150 points for those buffs--but you also get a 4+ chance to shunt wounds over onto your GEQ models in 3".

Those "single target buffs" are also caveated. FRFSRF only applies to Lasguns and Hellguns, Take Aim only does reroll hit rolls of 1(unless you're Cadians--in which case if you get Take Aim AND have stayed still that turn, it's reroll all Hits), and Bring It Down is reroll Wound rolls of 1.

How in the feth is that "increasing the damage output of guard BY ALOT instead of giving really situational buffs"?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:
I'm waiting for mortar team nerfs, I see every TOURNAMENT GK list taking a smattering of them and I know I'm not insane in recognizing their point efficiency and range.

I'd just like to see Mortars get shuffled into being a Heavy Weapons Team only option. I'd be 100% okay with that. There'd be no ablative Guardsmen for that.

That be pretty reasonable.

**Unit1126PLL**

Galas wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
LunarSol wrote:
Guard are definitely worth 5 ppm at their current stats. They're just not worth that at BS 5+

I disagree.

GW, with CA, decided that a 6/4/3/3/3/1/1/6/4+ with a 6+ Invulnerable Save and an army-wide Aura is worth 7ppm(Skitarii Rangers) and 8ppm when they get a Mortal Wound aura(Vanguard) and with a sliding scale of 5-10 models while taking 2 Specials at the minimum or 3 at the maxium.
Going from 5+ to 4+ is 'valued' at 1ppm. Going from BS 4 to 3 is 'valued' at 2ppm.

You want Guard at 5ppm, you're giving me something in return. Not when Rangers are spammable at 7ppm and Vanguard at 8ppm.

You have a functional Codex wheres Adeptus Mechanicus does not. Isn't that enough?

Surely that means the problem is that Adeptus Mechanicus needs fixing, and not Guard, yes? Or would you rather Guard match them in having a non-functional codex?