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Caederes wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Whirlwind actually compares fairly well to the Basilisk, barring the differences in the statlines. Having a static 2 damage is nothing to sneeze at.

It's Ultramarines that are balanced around him buffing them. Nobody else really benefits significantly from him, outside of his buff that some people claim was making Guard broken as well.

Strength 9. AP-2. I'm sorry but how can you not see how much better the Basilisk is based on those two stats alone?


I missed the part where Salamanders/Black Templars/Raven Guard/Imperial Fists/White Scars/Crimson Fists/Iron Hands had access to a Guilliman-equivalent model. How often do you see those Chapters competitively, and how often do you see a Space Marine army without Guilliman? Space Marines need buffs to their codex full-stop, nerf Guilliman into the ground as well and almost everyone will be happy as larry.

Basilisk are -3 AP in the Codex.

tneva82 wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 kronk wrote:
How certain are we that guard are getting bumped to 5 ppm, anyway?

I want them to publish the FAQ with them reduced to 3 ppm with a quick correctly within 24 hours just to taste those glorious 24 hours of panic and rage.

That would indeed be hilarious. This and a five point drop on Dark Reapers. Witness the rage

GW being GW both are quite plausible. Just imagine how sales of those models would skyrocket.

Not really, GW right now doesn't have the production capability to bank on something like that.

Caederes wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Whirlwind actually compares fairly well to the Basilisk, barring the differences in the statlines. Having a static 2 damage is nothing to sneeze at.

It's Ultramarines that are balanced around him buffing them. Nobody else really benefits significantly from him, outside of his buff that some people claim was making Guard broken as well.

Strength 9. AP-2. I'm sorry but how can you not see how much better the Basilisk is based on those two stats alone?

I'm not arguing that those stat differences are bad, but can you not see how much better the Whirlwind can be based on the fact that it is going to be hitting a smidge more--or possibly far more often if someone takes advantage of the Datalink Telemetry Stratagem and has a few Land Speeders, since it makes them autohit?

Right now, the Basilisk has an advantage in that it's S9 vs S7 AP-3 vs AP-1 over a Whirlwind and a difference of 4pts(although realistically, the difference is going to be a bit wider since people will take Heavy Flamers if they're concerned about protecting the Basilisk--and the kit only includes a Heavy Flamer)...but what happens if the Basilisk gets a minimum range enforced on it again? If it has to pay for Indirect Fire as an upgrade like it used to?

There are a ton of ways to deal with the 'problem' of indirect fire weapons that aren't just "nerfs them!" that players like Martel want. They've already shown they aren't afraid to do a fairly hefty errata to a published material as they did with the Commissar gutting.

I missed the part where Salamanders/Black Templars/Raven Guard/Imperial Fists/White Scars/Crimson Fists/Iron Hands had access to a Guilliman-equivalent model. How often do you see those Chapters competitively, and how often do you see a Space Marine army without Guilliman? Space Marines need buffs to their codex full-stop, nerf Guilliman into the ground as well and almost everyone will be happy as larry.

Which was kind of my point...I figured you would have realized that.

It's like people saying Guard are overpowered or that Guardsmen need to be 5ppm because of soup. The codex isn't at fault here, it's the fact that people can cherrypick and that tournament lists are going to be numbercrunched to hell and back again.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'm not arguing that those stat differences are bad, but can you not see how much better the Whirlwind can be based on the fact that it is going to be hitting a smidge more--or possibly far more often if someone takes advantage of the Datalink Telemetry Stratagem and has a few Land Speeders, since it makes them autohit?

Dude. Don't shift the goal posts. Suddenly adding 90+ point model that has to survive to be within 12" on the target AND spend 1 CP isn't going to do you any favors in this argument.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'm not arguing that those stat differences are bad, but can you not see how much better the Whirlwind can be based on the fact that it is going to be hitting a smidge more--or possibly far more often if someone takes advantage of the Datalink Telemetry Stratagem and has a few Land Speeders, since it makes them autohit?

Dude. Don't shift the goal posts. Suddenly adding 90+ point model that has to survive to be within 12" on the target AND spend 1 CP isn't going to do you any favors in this argument.

80 points.
70 points base for a Land Speeder(which has a point lower Toughness value than a Basilisk, BTW) and 10 points for a Heavy Bolter.

Since we seem to go into every comparison of Guard units with them being surrounded by 80+ infantrymen that make it impossible to assault through, why can't I add a Land Speeder(or Land Speeder Storm for that matter--I just looked at the keywords on the Stratagem and it just says "Land Speeder"--which the LSS has, while amusingly Land Speeders themselves only have "Land Speeders" as a keyword...) into the mix for this example?

So for double the points of single Guard Infantry Squad, Whirlwinds can get the ability to autohit.

Does anyone know if they'll buff the Vanquisher, and maybe Chimera too, while they're at it?

They should. The chimera has been getting its balls busted since 5th.

 Kanluwen wrote:

80 points.
70 points base for a Land Speeder(which has a point lower Toughness value than a Basilisk, BTW) and 10 points for a Heavy Bolter.

Since we seem to go into every comparison of Guard units with them being surrounded by 80+ infantrymen that make it impossible to assault through, why can't I add a Land Speeder(or Land Speeder Storm for that matter--I just looked at the keywords on the Stratagem and it just says "Land Speeder"--which the LSS has, while amusingly Land Speeders themselves only have "Land Speeders" as a keyword...) into the mix for this example?

So for double the points of single Guard Infantry Squad, Whirlwinds can get the ability to autohit.

*sigh* dude...

WW
4 * 1 * .666 * .5 * 2 = 2.6

BSK
4.5 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 2.5

That's with AUTO HITS that you just spent 1CP on for ONE turn on ONE model and totally exposed the Landspeeder and you barely get ahead of the Basilisk.
And the WW will suck wind (heh heh) against T7+.

Panzergraf wrote:
Does anyone know if they'll buff the Vanquisher, and maybe Chimera too, while they're at it?

Just a supposition, but i don't think that they will.

They will probably use the intermediate FAQs to intervene on glaring problems of the game (like reapers) and to fix those models that no amount of point changes could fix (like IMHO spore mines).

Reducing point cost of underused models is something that they will do with the various CA.

Daedalus81 wrote:

That's with AUTO HITS that you just spent 1CP on for ONE turn on ONE model and totally exposed the Landspeeder and you barely get ahead of the Basilisk.

Thanks to "Fly", Land Speeders can potentially be able to draw LOS without being totally exposed.

And the WW will suck wind (heh heh) against T7+.

Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, Whirlwinds should suck against T7+?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

That's with AUTO HITS that you just spent 1CP on for ONE turn on ONE model and totally exposed the Landspeeder and you barely get ahead of the Basilisk.

Thanks to "Fly", Land Speeders can potentially be able to draw LOS without being totally exposed.

And the WW will suck wind (heh heh) against T7+.

Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, Whirlwinds should suck against T7+?

You just zoomed right past the point and kept going.

Maybe they should suck and in relative terms they'll suck WAY worse than a Basilisk will against the same target.

Someone explain how anyone could ever argue that a weapon with better S, much better AP, better range and on average more shots is equivalent to a worse weapon because of a 1 point difference in BS. Because that's among the most ridiculous comparisons I've ever seen.

Hey we're at 21 pages. I guess this rumor got confirmed then, somewhere?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If not, then, like, I guess the thread should be renamed to "The Imperial Guard complaint bin" or something right? So that random talk about basilisks and whirlwinds is actually RELEVANT to the topic at hand?

Daedalus81 wrote:

You just zoomed right past the point and kept going.

Maybe they should suck and in relative terms they'll suck WAY worse than a Basilisk will against the same target.

Sorry, did you actually have a point? Because basically all you did was accuse me of shifting goalposts(which is something that is ALWAYS done in any discussion about Guard--"It doesn't matter that Infantry Squads can't really kill anything by themselves! They're only there to bubblewrap <Insert Whined About Imperial Unit of the Month Here>!") and talk about just the Strength and AP of the weapon whilst ignoring that it will hit slightly more often(thanks to being a Marine vehicle) and trying to insinuate that bad rolls don't happen when I pointed out that a flat damage value might be preferable to a d3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Someone explain how anyone could ever argue that a weapon with better S, much better AP, better range and on average more shots is equivalent to a worse weapon because of a 1 point difference in BS. Because that's among the most ridiculous comparisons I've ever seen.

If you can't understand why a 1 point difference in BS is fairly nice for something that is cheaper than the other, you've lost sight of the point.

Also: Who gives a crap about 240" range? Seriously, how many tables have you ever played upon where that would be realistically used?

The amount of mental gimnastic you are doing to try to arguee that a Whirlwind is actually better (Or equal, lol) than a Basilisk is just insane Kanluwen.

You're overestimating the effects of BS 3+ vs. 4+ while neglecting how much better AP-3 and S9 is compared to S7 AP-1. The Whirlwind is better against T3 or lower targets with 6+ or worse saves (so... Grots and Daemon infantry). The Basilisk is better against MEQ, equivalent against GEQ and Boy-equivalents, better against vehicles, better against monstrous creatures. It's just plain better against more relevant targets.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Also: Who gives a crap about 240" range? Seriously, how many tables have you ever played upon where that would be realistically used?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sorry, did you actually have a point? Because basically all you did was accuse me of shifting goalposts(which is something that is ALWAYS done in any discussion about Guard--"It doesn't matter that Infantry Squads can't really kill anything by themselves! They're only there to bubblewrap <Insert Whined About Imperial Unit of the Month Here>!") and talk about just the Strength and AP of the weapon whilst ignoring that it will hit slightly more often(thanks to being a Marine vehicle) and trying to insinuate that bad rolls don't happen when I pointed out that a flat damage value might be preferable to a d3.

I seriously have to question your ability to separate yourself from your talking points to step aside and process the information given to you.

Basilisks are better than WW. Fact. Demonstrated by math. And not by some small margin that raises probable doubt.

Here it is fully stated.

Basilisk vs WW
GEQ - 1.9 vs 1.8 MEQ - 1.6 vs 0.9 TEQ - 2.5 vs 1.2 Pred - 2.5 vs 1.3 Russ - 2.5 vs 0.9

Then you attempt to hand wave that the WW is as GOOD AS the Basilisk, because a LS can make it auto hit while ignoring that:

1) That affects ONE model at a time
2) Costs 1 CP for one turn of shooting

If you gave me the option of WW & LS or Basilisk & IS i'll take the latter every single time.

If you think 1BS changes the picture enough to make a difference after being presented with this info - you have lost sight of reason for dogmatic defense of your side.

Guys, there's been 21 pages of heated discussion based on a rumour from "someone who might know something".

Let's wait and see if it's true before we make these assumptions? For all we know if there are changes they may also include buffs. Shouldn't discussion around Basilisks and the like be in another thread?

 Galas wrote:


Basilisk are -3 AP in the Codex.

Oh wow, even better than I thought!

Sorry Kan, but comparing a Whirlwind to a Basilisk was a bad move, it just exposed that the two units should not be priced anywhere near each other.

Caederes wrote:

 Galas wrote:


Basilisk are -3 AP in the Codex.

Oh wow, even better than I thought!

Sorry Kan, but comparing a Whirlwind to a Basilisk was a bad move, it just exposed that the two units should not be priced anywhere near each other.

The question being is the Basilisk undercosted or the WW overcosted? I'm sure we could spend a long time analyzing that, but we're way off on a tangent.

If IS go to 5 points then perhaps having a more effective backfield is appropriate - I don't know. March will be a crazy month with codexes and the FAQ hitting.

Also don't forget the indirect buff that Basilisks receive from Doctrines. Being able to reroll the number of shots etc

On one hand I feel sorry for IG players. They suffered mostly during the last few editions with an "ok" codex and now they are top tier and receive 7th ED invisible scatbike hatred. But don't pretend that most of their units are not hugely cost effective and easily spammed.

Leafblower IG is definitely back with a vengeance this edition.

Caederes wrote:

 Galas wrote:


Basilisk are -3 AP in the Codex.

Oh wow, even better than I thought!

Sorry Kan, but comparing a Whirlwind to a Basilisk was a bad move, it just exposed that the two units should not be priced anywhere near each other.

Seeing as how the Griffon(the closest comparative piece to the Whirlwind in fluff and in-game stats) no longer exists, you make due with what you have.

Whirlwind isn't meant to be able to put down fortifications or superheavies; Basilisks are.
Whirlwinds have always, in the fluff and rules, been more of an anti-infantry piece.

Want a closer comparison based off the fluff rather than looking at stats? Wyverns--a unit that saw a 10 ppm increase, while Whirlwinds saw a 5ppm decrease.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Also don't forget the indirect buff that Basilisks receive from Doctrines. Being able to reroll the number of shots etc

Not all Doctrines grant the same benefits. Right now Basilisks benefit the most from Catachans' Doctrines for whatever reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Galas wrote:


Basilisk are -3 AP in the Codex.

Oh wow, even better than I thought!

Sorry Kan, but comparing a Whirlwind to a Basilisk was a bad move, it just exposed that the two units should not be priced anywhere near each other.

The question being is the Basilisk undercosted or the WW overcosted? I'm sure we could spend a long time analyzing that, but we're way off on a tangent.

You could probably 'fix'(not that it needs it) many Space Marine vehicles by simply removing the initial points cost of their weapons. Whirlwinds are paying for their Vengeance Launcher and then they pay again to upgrade it.

If IS go to 5 points then perhaps having a more effective backfield is appropriate - I don't know. March will be a crazy month with codexes and the FAQ hitting.

If Infantry Squads go to 50 points base, I expect some big damned improvements to them to justify the 1 point of BS(and actual points...) difference that will exist between them and Veteran Guardsmen or the 4 points of difference between them and Scions.

Sergeants getting Lasguns, at the very least, needs to happen. Don't give me that malarkey about being unable to do it from the kits, because you can.
Free Vox-Casters would also be amenable, or Sergeants being able to issue an Order to their own squad without the squad being unable to accept Orders from Officers would be as well.

And yet due to game design, Basilisks are much more efficient anti-infantry (barring chaff hordes) then what Whirlwinds could ever be.

True that not all doctrines are a direct buff for the basilisk, but the fact that they gain a Doctrine at all is a very big advantage over a whirlwind and for free. Cadia and Catachan are the two most common doctrines you'll see anyway so either you reroll to hit, or reroll the shots.

Basilisks are better at killing infantry. They have more shots and are way better at killing anything other than 6+ save models.

It's okay to make mistakes. But i would recommend bowing out of this discussion. There is no universe where the Whirlwind is superior to a Basilisk, unless you're using it to shoot T3, 6+ monsters. In which case, a more appropriate comparison would be the Wyvern, which would kick the Whirlwind's ass so hard it would be funny.

And I'm not advocating the Whirlwind be made better. This game needs far less castling in a corner and dropping bombs without giving 2 gaks about the movement phase.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
And yet due to game design, Basilisks are much more efficient anti-infantry then what Whirlwinds could ever be.

For now. There's been a rumor that they're looking into ways of shifting up Blast weapons to be a bit less anti-charactery.

True that not all doctrines are a direct buff for the basilisk, but the fact that they gain a Doctrine at all is a very big advantage over a whirlwind and for free. Cadia and Catachan are the two most common doctrines you'll see anyway so either you reroll to hit, or reroll the shots.

You reroll 1s to Hit when stationary with Cadians. Granted that Basilisks won't be moving often, but the same effect can be had by bringing a Master of Ordnance of the same <Regiment> , parking him within 6" of the Basilisk and having the Basilisk firing at anything outside of 36"...but even then you're better off just using the "Aerial Spotter" stratagem for 2CP and getting to reroll all failed Hit rolls.
Catachan doctrine is 'always on'.

Also worth noting that Basilisks(and the other artillery platforms as well) cannot receive Tank Orders or regular Orders.

The argument of Whirlwinds not gaining Chapter Tactics is a fair one, however if it were to be the case then Whirlwinds might swing ahead since they'd be able to benefit from -1 to be hit from Raven Guard or the Ultramarine tactics, etc.

I know this is totally offtopic but I love how the wyvern looks. Like a tank out of Metal Slug.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
And yet due to game design, Basilisks are much more efficient anti-infantry then what Whirlwinds could ever be.

For now. There's been a rumor that they're looking into ways of shifting up Blast weapons to be a bit less anti-charactery.

I haven't seen anything official to indicate this. Until such a change is confirmed it's pure conjecture. I'm talking about the Basilisk now, not what it could be in 12 months.

You reroll 1s to Hit when stationary with Cadians. Granted that Basilisks won't be moving often, but the same effect can be had by bringing a Master of Ordnance of the same <Regiment> , parking him within 6" of the Basilisk and having the Basilisk firing at anything outside of 36"...but even then you're better off just using the "Aerial Spotter" stratagem for 2CP and getting to reroll all failed Hit rolls.
Catachan doctrine is 'always on'.

Yep, sorry should have clarified reroll hit rolls of 1, that's what I meant. It's still a buff that a whirlwind needs a captain investment to receive - again another free benefit - noticing a trend here?

The argument of Whirlwinds not gaining Chapter Tactics is a fair one, however if it were to be the case then Whirlwinds might swing ahead since they'd be able to benefit from -1 to be hit from Raven Guard or the Ultramarine tactics, etc.

To be fair, it's a problem that affects many other armies, not just IG. Either army tactics should apply to Infantry/Walkers for all armies, or should apply to the whole army for all armies.

 Kanluwen wrote:

If Infantry Squads go to 50 points base, I expect some big damned improvements to them to justify the 1 point of BS(and actual points...) difference that will exist between them and Veteran Guardsmen or the 4 points of difference between them and Scions.

Sergeants getting Lasguns, at the very least, needs to happen. Don't give me that malarkey about being unable to do it from the kits, because you can.
Free Vox-Casters would also be amenable, or Sergeants being able to issue an Order to their own squad without the squad being unable to accept Orders from Officers would be as well.

It baffles me that you think IS aren't good. They are as good if not better than most infantry in the game at shooting (including Tau) and they are the most durable per point.
They are already worth at least 5 ppm, that's the whole point. On top of that, they have the option to double their shooting output for a mere 20 pts. A Tau fireblade costs 40 pts and only increases shots by 1 at half range. Also, +1 BS for vets is not really worth an extra 2 points in the first place, it's barely worth a whole point (+33.3% shooting output vs +25% cost). And yes, sergeants should get lasguns as an option (not sure why it's hasn't happened yet). And I disagree about orders.

It puts them nicely between conscripts and veterans so that there is a meaningful (but small) price difference. And in regards to scions, they get +1 BS and +1 sv, so that's 2 points at most, then they get deepstrike for 2 points. Boom, 9 pts, and another for the lasgun, making them twice the cost of a Guardsmen.

 Marmatag wrote:
. There is no universe where the Whirlwind is superior to a Basilisk, unless you're using it to shoot T3, 6+ monsters. In which case, a more appropriate comparison would be the Wyvern, which would kick the Whirlwind's ass so hard it would be funny.

Which in turn is outclassed horribly by mortars. Who uses wyverns anyway?