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Dandelion wrote:

It baffles me that you think IS aren't good. They are as good if not better than most infantry in the game at shooting (including Tau) and they are the most durable per point.
They are already worth at least 5 ppm, that's the whole point. On top of that, they have the option to double their shooting output for a mere 20 pts. A Tau fireblade costs 40 pts and only increases shots by 1 at half range.

The issue with the comparison between a Tau Fireblade and a Platoon/Company Commander is that the Fireblade can meaningfully contribute to the shooting phase while all the Officer can do is issue Orders to single units or plink out a few shots with their Laspistol or whatever ranged weapon you might throw on them from the ranged weapons armory.
A Fireblade has a 4+ save and comes equipped with a Pulse Rifle, Markerlight, and can bring along two Drones while having a 6" aura associated with Volley Fire.
A Guard Officer has a 5+/5++ and a Laspistol and has a 6" radius for issuing Orders or has to be within 3" of a unit with a Vox-Caster and issuing an Order to a unit with a Vox-Caster for the range to get up to 18". You can throw a Boltgun on him for some longer range or a Plasma Pistol or whatever...but it's not that helpful in most regards.

It's the same issue with the Buffmander, essentially. What's supposed to be a meaningful character is able to be fielded as a relatively low points investiture buffbot.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The issue with the comparison between a Tau Fireblade and a Platoon/Company Commander is that the Fireblade can meaningfully contribute to the shooting phase while all the Officer can do is issue Orders to single units or plink out a few shots with their Laspistol or whatever ranged weapon you might throw on them from the ranged weapons armory.
A Fireblade has a 4+ save and comes equipped with a Pulse Rifle, Markerlight, and can bring along two Drones while having a 6" aura associated with Volley Fire.
A Guard Officer has a 5+/5++ and a Laspistol and has a 6" radius for issuing Orders or has to be within 3" of a unit with a Vox-Caster and issuing an Order to a unit with a Vox-Caster for the range to get up to 18". You can throw a Boltgun on him for some longer range or a Plasma Pistol or whatever...but it's not that helpful in most regards.

It's the same issue with the Buffmander, essentially. What's supposed to be a meaningful character is able to be fielded as a relatively low points investiture buffbot.

I think often you post good ideas, but you're not going to win this. There are other things Tau can get to improve their shooting, but those things also cost points and rely on hitting first.

Commander + 20 IS = 100 points
Fireblade + a Strike Team of 8 = 103 points

Long Range IS - 40 * .5 * .5 * .5 = 5 //over half the Tau. Tau - 9 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 2 Short Range IS - all the tau are dead Tau - 27 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 6
So, really the commander not having a lasgun is absurdly pointless.

Even if we carried it further..

Fireblade covering 16 fire warriors : 167 points
Commander covering two squads of 10 plus another 16 IS without orders : 164 points

Long Range IS - 56 * .5 * .5 * .5 = 7 Tau - 17 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 3.8 Short Range IS - 112 * .5 * .5 * .5 = 14 Tau - 51 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 11

So eventually Tau will catch up in short range with more models buffed by a single Fireblade, but then they need to move for THREE turns to get in range and that's assuming you don't move at all.

At the current 4 points per model........

Nothing at T3 can outshoot flashlight spam.

Nothing at T4 is efficient enough to outlast flashlight spam.

guardsmen infantry loose handily to Primaris marines, but they wont just take infantry and Primaris loose to any kinds of heavy weapon fire.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The issue with the comparison between a Tau Fireblade and a Platoon/Company Commander is that the Fireblade can meaningfully contribute to the shooting phase while all the Officer can do is issue Orders to single units or plink out a few shots with their Laspistol or whatever ranged weapon you might throw on them from the ranged weapons armory.
A Fireblade has a 4+ save and comes equipped with a Pulse Rifle, Markerlight, and can bring along two Drones while having a 6" aura associated with Volley Fire.
A Guard Officer has a 5+/5++ and a Laspistol and has a 6" radius for issuing Orders or has to be within 3" of a unit with a Vox-Caster and issuing an Order to a unit with a Vox-Caster for the range to get up to 18". You can throw a Boltgun on him for some longer range or a Plasma Pistol or whatever...but it's not that helpful in most regards.

It's the same issue with the Buffmander, essentially. What's supposed to be a meaningful character is able to be fielded as a relatively low points investiture buffbot.

I think often you post good ideas, but you're not going to win this. There are other things Tau can get to improve their shooting, but those things also cost points and rely on hitting first.

Commander + 20 IS = 100 points
Fireblade + a Strike Team of 8 = 103 points

Long Range IS - 40 * .5 * .5 * .5 = 5 //over half the Tau. Tau - 9 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 2 Short Range IS - all the tau are dead Tau - 27 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 6

These numbers don't work. It would be 38 Lasguns firing--Sergeants don't have them and cannot be affected by FRFSRF since it's Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns only.
Also, are you using a Platoon Commander or a Company Commander? 2 Infantry Squads, base, would be 80 pts--Company Commanders(the only way to issue 2 Orders) are 30 points. Don't answer--I know you used the Platoon Commander, meaning that only one of those squads is going to be outputting 20 shots at 24", the other is outputting 10 shots.
Additionally, does this factor in that Tau can potentially start in long range while Guard can't?

There's a 6" difference in Lasguns and Pulse Rifles. Vostroyans can balance it out, but Tau can still eke ahead if they have a bare minimum Pathfinder Team with a Pulse Accelerator Drone in 3" of them(granting an additional 6" of range for their Pulse Rifles--meaning it's a whopping 36" basic weapon that Rapid Fires at 18 inches or less).
Yes, yes, yes it's 'more points' or 'shifting the goalposts' but given that you're trying to massage the data to be the 'perfect storm' of Guardsmen functioning...

So, really the commander not having a lasgun is absurdly pointless.

The point that you're missing is that the Commander is literally just there to provide Orders and to unlock Command Squads in Matched Play.

Even if we carried it further..

Fireblade covering 16 fire warriors : 167 points
Commander covering two squads of 10 plus another 16 IS without orders : 164 points

Long Range IS - 56 * .5 * .5 * .5 = 7 Tau - 17 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 3.8 Short Range IS - 112 * .5 * .5 * .5 = 14 Tau - 51 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 11

So eventually Tau will catch up in short range with more models buffed by a single Fireblade, but then they need to move for THREE turns to get in range and that's assuming you don't move at all.

"Short range", for Tau, being 15"(18" if you have a PAD in 3" of the units) versus 12" for Guard.

You also need to factor in that the 'auras' are the same range unless the Guard have Vox-Casters in play, which cost points and require the Officer to be in 3" of the Vox-Casters.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The issue with the comparison between a Tau Fireblade and a Platoon/Company Commander is that the Fireblade can meaningfully contribute to the shooting phase while all the Officer can do is issue Orders to single units or plink out a few shots with their Laspistol or whatever ranged weapon you might throw on them from the ranged weapons armory.
A Fireblade has a 4+ save and comes equipped with a Pulse Rifle, Markerlight, and can bring along two Drones while having a 6" aura associated with Volley Fire.
A Guard Officer has a 5+/5++ and a Laspistol and has a 6" radius for issuing Orders or has to be within 3" of a unit with a Vox-Caster and issuing an Order to a unit with a Vox-Caster for the range to get up to 18". You can throw a Boltgun on him for some longer range or a Plasma Pistol or whatever...but it's not that helpful in most regards.

It's the same issue with the Buffmander, essentially. What's supposed to be a meaningful character is able to be fielded as a relatively low points investiture buffbot.

I think often you post good ideas, but you're not going to win this. There are other things Tau can get to improve their shooting, but those things also cost points and rely on hitting first.

Commander + 20 IS = 100 points
Fireblade + a Strike Team of 8 = 103 points

Long Range IS - 40 * .5 * .5 * .5 = 5 //over half the Tau. Tau - 9 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 2 Short Range IS - all the tau are dead Tau - 27 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 6
So, really the commander not having a lasgun is absurdly pointless.

Even if we carried it further..

Fireblade covering 16 fire warriors : 167 points
Commander covering two squads of 10 plus another 16 IS without orders : 164 points

Long Range IS - 56 * .5 * .5 * .5 = 7 Tau - 17 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 3.8 Short Range IS - 112 * .5 * .5 * .5 = 14 Tau - 51 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 11

So eventually Tau will catch up in short range with more models buffed by a single Fireblade, but then they need to move for THREE turns to get in range and that's assuming you don't move at all.

Don't forget the points difference: 14 dead Tau is 112 pts while 11 dead Guard is 44 pts. So Guard are still over twice as efficient as Tau in this scenario.

Let's compare Infantry to Gun Drones (the most efficient shooting the Tau have, the one that Tau players think should go up by 2 points):
11 Drones +1 Fireblade= 130 pts
20 Guard + Commander = 130 pts

Assuming within 9":
IS- 75*.5*.333*.5= 6.25 (50 pts) Tau- 66*.333*.666*.666+ 3*.833*.666*.666= 11 (44 pts)

I included the Firablade and Commander's shots. Guard still win per point in the conditions most favorable to Tau.

Edit: it turns out Company commanders are 30 pts and not 40. so 20 Guard + commander is 120 pts. (including vox-casters)

Idk guys. At the onset of 8th my best friends and I played a lot of games. He played combined arms Tau and I played guard. Our games were absolute slug matches. The first couple games his infantry wrecked mine since he had those drones that increased range. But then I realized I just sit back and let heavy weapons do my work and make him come to me. Before that my infantry against his fire warriors were epic fire fights with huge losses on both sides. I don't think your math supports what I've seen in my experience.

The problem with comparing fire Warriors to guard is that I'm pretty sure fire warriors are way too expensive. They seem to pay a premium for their S5 weapons which, in my opinion, is basically a worthless upgrade in this edition. Plus T3 guard don't care about S5 weapons because they might as well just be S4.

The codex changed all that since our Russes weren't just bricks anymore. If Tau get appropriate points decreases and get some weapons that are over S7 or have better AP they'll be solid again.

 Colonel Cross wrote:

The problem with comparing fire Warriors to guard is that I'm pretty sure fire warriors are way too expensive. They seem to pay a premium for their S5 weapons which, in my opinion, is basically a worthless upgrade in this edition. Plus T3 guard don't care about S5 weapons because they might as well just be S4.

I'd honestly be fine if Pulse weapons went down to S4 and Fire Warriors dropped a point.

I'd compare fire warriors to skitarri. How would that look?

Edit: just checked them out on battlescribe. Firewarriors look awful in comparison to Rangers haha. From The Greater Good Tau ability to their statline to their weapon. They need some help.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Idk guys. At the onset of 8th my best friends and I played a lot of games. He played combined arms Tau and I played guard. Our games were absolute slug matches. The first couple games his infantry wrecked mine since he had those drones that increased range. But then I realized I just sit back and let heavy weapons do my work and make him come to me. Before that my infantry against his fire warriors were epic fire fights with huge losses on both sides. I don't think your math supports what I've seen in my experience.

The problem with comparing fire Warriors to guard is that I'm pretty sure fire warriors are way too expensive. They seem to pay a premium for their S5 weapons which, in my opinion, is basically a worthless upgrade in this edition. Plus T3 guard don't care about S5 weapons because they might as well just be S4.

The codex changed all that since our Russes weren't just bricks anymore. If Tau get appropriate points decreases and get some weapons that are over S7 or have better AP they'll be solid again.

The bolded part is why anecdotal evidence isn't proof. If people on this forum are so interested in defending their side that they rely on personal anecdotes to inform their idea of balance no wonder we can't have nice things.

It's like that guy bringing in a snowball to the senate floor to "disprove" global warming. My god this post boils down to "My personal experiences are more valid than math."

 Kanluwen wrote:

These numbers don't work. It would be 38 Lasguns firing--Sergeants don't have them and cannot be affected by FRFSRF since it's Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns only.
Also, are you using a Platoon Commander or a Company Commander? 2 Infantry Squads, base, would be 80 pts--Company Commanders(the only way to issue 2 Orders) are 30 points. Don't answer--I know you used the Platoon Commander, meaning that only one of those squads is going to be outputting 20 shots at 24", the other is outputting 10 shots.

20 IS so 40 shots. Sure, ok, a goof on the commander there. The Tau get an extra model, which changes practically nothing.

Additionally, does this factor in that Tau can potentially start in long range while Guard can't?

Sure - look at the numbers. Tau are not cranking out the damage to make the IS worry at all.

There's a 6" difference in Lasguns and Pulse Rifles. Vostroyans can balance it out, but Tau can still eke ahead if they have a bare minimum Pathfinder Team with a Pulse Accelerator Drone in 3" of them(granting an additional 6" of range for their Pulse Rifles--meaning it's a whopping 36" basic weapon that Rapid Fires at 18 inches or less).
Yes, yes, yes it's 'more points' or 'shifting the goalposts' but given that you're trying to massage the data to be the 'perfect storm' of Guardsmen functioning...

You mean the drone you can target and blow up with a spiffy LOS weapon and the pathfinder team that takes up a FA slot? There's also only so much table. You can't sit your fire warriors on the back edge and expect them to have good line of sight through all the terrain in front of them.

The point that you're missing is that the Commander is literally just there to provide Orders and to unlock Command Squads in Matched Play.

And the point you're missing is that is what the Fireblade is there just for an aura. Adding ONE shot does basically nothing to adjust the overall calculus.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Idk guys. At the onset of 8th my best friends and I played a lot of games. He played combined arms Tau and I played guard. Our games were absolute slug matches. The first couple games his infantry wrecked mine since he had those drones that increased range. But then I realized I just sit back and let heavy weapons do my work and make him come to me. Before that my infantry against his fire warriors were epic fire fights with huge losses on both sides. I don't think your math supports what I've seen in my experience.

The problem with comparing fire Warriors to guard is that I'm pretty sure fire warriors are way too expensive. They seem to pay a premium for their S5 weapons which, in my opinion, is basically a worthless upgrade in this edition. Plus T3 guard don't care about S5 weapons because they might as well just be S4.

The codex changed all that since our Russes weren't just bricks anymore. If Tau get appropriate points decreases and get some weapons that are over S7 or have better AP they'll be solid again.

Worthless against guardsmen. Because T3 got a buff in 8th ed. S5 is money against marines and DG.

I would expect that Tau will be significantly more powerful when they get their codex. They have never had a poor codex release, so if history is anything to go by, they should end up much better than their current Index list.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I'd compare fire warriors to skitarri. How would that look?

Edit: just checked them out on battlescribe. Firewarriors look awful in comparison to Rangers haha. From The Greater Good Tau ability to their statline to their weapon. They need some help.

Fire warriors are actually quite good in 8th. I fight 96 of them frequently and its a very hard battle. A lot depends on access to the sweet, sweet -1 to hit ability.

bananathug wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Idk guys. At the onset of 8th my best friends and I played a lot of games. He played combined arms Tau and I played guard. Our games were absolute slug matches. The first couple games his infantry wrecked mine since he had those drones that increased range. But then I realized I just sit back and let heavy weapons do my work and make him come to me. Before that my infantry against his fire warriors were epic fire fights with huge losses on both sides. I don't think your math supports what I've seen in my experience.

The problem with comparing fire Warriors to guard is that I'm pretty sure fire warriors are way too expensive. They seem to pay a premium for their S5 weapons which, in my opinion, is basically a worthless upgrade in this edition. Plus T3 guard don't care about S5 weapons because they might as well just be S4.

The codex changed all that since our Russes weren't just bricks anymore. If Tau get appropriate points decreases and get some weapons that are over S7 or have better AP they'll be solid again.

The bolded part is why anecdotal evidence isn't proof. If people on this forum are so interested in defending their side that they rely on personal anecdotes to inform their idea of balance no wonder we can't have nice things.

It's like that guy bringing in a snowball to the senate floor to "disprove" global warming. My god this post boils down to "My personal experiences are more valid than math."

Hardly. The point is, there's far more options and things going on the tabletop than what these exceptionally small sample size math problems would have one to believe. But please, ignore my final thoughts in that quote.

Martel732 wrote:
Worthless against guardsmen. Because T3 got a buff in 8th ed. S5 is money against marines and DG.

Martel732 wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I'd compare fire warriors to skitarri. How would that look?

Edit: just checked them out on battlescribe. Firewarriors look awful in comparison to Rangers haha. From The Greater Good Tau ability to their statline to their weapon. They need some help.

Fire warriors are actually quite good in 8th. I fight 96 of them frequently and its a very hard battle. A lot depends on access to the sweet, sweet -1 to hit ability.

I was merely continuing the comparison of firewarriors vs guardsmen, as that seems to be the flavor of the day today.

Lol 96 of them? I used my friends Tau army to play against his Primaris and the firewarriors did absolutely nothing.

4ppm guardsman are insane, they certainly deserve 5ppm AT LEAST;

But for the sake of arguments:

2guardsman = 8ppm
WS/BS4+, S3, T3, W1+1, A1+1, SV5+
Lasgun: 24", Rapid Fire 1+1, S3
Orders, Regiment

1 Eldar Guardian = 8ppm
WS/BS3+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV5+
Shuriken Catapult, 12", Assault 2, S4, Wound rolls of 6+ are resolved with AP-3 instead of AP-0
Battle Focus, Craftworld

2Termagaunt = 8ppm
WS/BS4+, S3, T3, W1+1, A1+1, SV6+
Fleshborer: 12", Assault 1+1, S4
Hail of Living Ammunition, Hive Fleet, [Instinctive Behaviour]

1 Tau Firewarrior = 8ppm
WS5+, BS4+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV4+
Pulse Rifle: 30", Rapid Fire 1, S5
For the Greater Good

1 Ork Shoota Boy = 6ppm
WS3+, BS5+, S4, T4, W1, A2, SV6+
Shoota: 18", Assault 2, S4
Mob Rule

--

Pound for pound, IG Guardsman win out - they might not have superior stats, but their durability is almost double everyone elses, have a 5+ save (further increasing saves), and have the Lasgun - which outranges all the other guns except pulse rifles [but can tie with that even if they're Voystron Guardsman], and has double the firepower of any other gun within 12".

Termagaunts are initially close in comparison; but 12" less range and a 6+ save makes them far worse.

I'm not going to go into the fact that IG have access to cheap Orders; doubling their already superior firepower (making them 2-4x as good as any other gun within 12"/15"), or allowing them to move in/around/out of any situation.

Yes, every army has buffs; but pound for pound, their basic trooper is the superior one. Even adding in buffs, the price:effect:value ratios rule supreme.

Then add in the best tanks, artillery, ability to soup it up....

Guardsman need to be 5ppm.

Firewarriors actually cut primaris to pieces unless they are ravenguard. I don't think your friends are getting the most out of their models.

Yeah maybe if you have 96 of them! I think my buddy only had 25. Regardless, I was chucking handfuls of dice and the game was very 1 sided. In favor of the Primaris.

fe40k wrote:
1 Ork Shoota Boy = 6ppm
WS3+, BS4+, S4, T4, W1, A2, SV6+
Shoota: 18", Assault 2, S4
Mob Rule

Quick correction, Ork Boyz are BS5+.

Agree on all your points though.

I've never lost to a primaris list, btw. That includes games with index ba. Tau have a lot of 2 damage weapons on top of str 5 everywhere. This does not invoke faith in your anecdotes.

I'll be honest, I went back and looked at the Guard codex some more and while there were strong things in there all I got out of it was how to make a Catachan army that stabs things to death with their knives.

FRFSRF > Charge > try and sweep the rest?

I don't know, I feel like there is a lot of interesting stuff in the book outside of the core that people aren't looking at because it's not the easiest way to win, or because it doesn't fit the Cadian gunline (which is the most vanilla, but arguably strongest, build you can have, especially with CP recovery warlords).

fe40k wrote:
4ppm guardsman are insane, they certainly deserve 5ppm AT LEAST;

But for the sake of arguments:

2guardsman = 8ppm
WS/BS4+, S3, T3, W1+1, A1+1, SV5+
Lasgun: 24", Rapid Fire 1+1, S3
Orders, Regiment

1 Eldar Guardian = 8ppm
WS/BS3+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV5+
Shuriken Catapult, 12", Assault 2, S4
Battle Focus, Craftworld

2Termagaunt = 8ppm
WS/BS4+, S3, T3, W1+1, A1+1, SV6+
Fleshborer: 12", Assault 1, S4
Hail of Living Ammunition, Hive Fleet, [Instinctive Behaviour]

1 Tau Firewarrior = 8ppm
WS5+, BS4+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV4+
Pulse Rifle: 30", Rapid Fire 1, S5
For the Greater Good

1 Ork Shoota Boy = 6ppm
WS3+, BS4+, S4, T4, W1, A2, SV6+
Shoota: 18", Assault 2, S4
Mob Rule

Reading it like that, I never realized how point efficient Skitarii are.

1 Skitarii Ranger = 7ppm
WS 4+, BS3+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV4+, 6++
Galvanic Rifle: 30'', Rapid Fire 1, S4 (6's to hit -1 AP)
Canticles, Forgeworld

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'll be honest, I went back and looked at the Guard codex some more and while there were strong things in there all I got out of it was how to make a Catachan army that stabs things to death with their knives.

FRFSRF > Charge > try and sweep the rest?

I don't know, I feel like there is a lot of interesting stuff in the book outside of the core that people aren't looking at because it's not the easiest way to win, or because it doesn't fit the Cadian gunline (which is the most vanilla, but arguably strongest, build you can have, especially with CP recovery warlords).

Oh god yes. I think about funky combos in that book all the time too, but most people just stand around and shoot as much as possible. The army is so damn flexible and players waste the potential.

 Valentine009 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
4ppm guardsman are insane, they certainly deserve 5ppm AT LEAST;

But for the sake of arguments:

2guardsman = 8ppm
WS/BS4+, S3, T3, W1+1, A1+1, SV5+
Lasgun: 24", Rapid Fire 1+1, S3
Orders, Regiment

1 Eldar Guardian = 8ppm
WS/BS3+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV5+
Shuriken Catapult, 12", Assault 2, S4
Battle Focus, Craftworld

2Termagaunt = 8ppm
WS/BS4+, S3, T3, W1+1, A1+1, SV6+
Fleshborer: 12", Assault 1, S4
Hail of Living Ammunition, Hive Fleet, [Instinctive Behaviour]

1 Tau Firewarrior = 8ppm
WS5+, BS4+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV4+
Pulse Rifle: 30", Rapid Fire 1, S5
For the Greater Good

1 Ork Shoota Boy = 6ppm
WS3+, BS4+, S4, T4, W1, A2, SV6+
Shoota: 18", Assault 2, S4
Mob Rule

Reading it like that, I never realized how point efficient Skitarii are.

1 Skitarii Ranger = 7ppm
WS 4+, BS3+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV4+, 6++
Galvanic Rifle: 30'', Rapid Fire 1, S4 (6's to hit -1 AP)
Canticles, Forgeworld

Skitarii Rangers are really a good unit. They are just better FireWarriors, and I think FireWarriors at 8ppm are fair. I really believe Rangers should be 8ppm or even 9ppm like SoB. I don't know why they make them cheaper in CA. The problem with Adeptus Mechanicus is not with their basic infantry, is with the lack of tactical options for the army, transports, and other units being very overpriced, etc... the only thing should be changed about Rangers is the rules for their special weapons to make them more competitive and fairly priced.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'll be honest, I went back and looked at the Guard codex some more and while there were strong things in there all I got out of it was how to make a Catachan army that stabs things to death with their knives.

FRFSRF > Charge > try and sweep the rest?

I don't know, I feel like there is a lot of interesting stuff in the book outside of the core that people aren't looking at because it's not the easiest way to win, or because it doesn't fit the Cadian gunline (which is the most vanilla, but arguably strongest, build you can have, especially with CP recovery warlords).

Oh god yes. I think about funky combos in that book all the time too, but most people just stand around and shoot as much as possible. The army is so damn flexible and players waste the potential.

Wasted potential is pretty common I've found. I don't want to poke any Squig Nests, but let's be honest, your average player looking for an edge will grab the first thing that looks strong rather than looking to make a strong combination of their own.

I've noticed that Catachan basically doesn't care about Vox like some armies do. It's kind of the Officer Spam army since you'll get bonuses to leadership that way while staying in Order range. So that could be saved points for other stuff.

Actually it feels like the perfect army to run massed Hellhounds. Rerolling number of shots is strong when you auto-hit (take track guards so you can threaten an insanely large bubble up until you finally die) they have a strong synergy with Catachan's strategem.

Then again I'm probably used to playing Sisters and trying to light my opponent on fire all the time anyways.

I don't know if this actually goes into the decision making process, but it may be because AdMech is especially dependent on command points to make thier army useful. As a result cheap infantry + cheap HQs (with the new Enginseer), are way more important for them than other factions, especially because you want to load up your heavy support slots with as much points as possible.

Martel732 wrote:I've never lost to a primaris list, btw. That includes games with index ba. Tau have a lot of 2 damage weapons on top of str 5 everywhere. This does not invoke faith in your anecdotes.

Well I do play guard and said I was using my friends Tau force to play against his Primaris force ... Literally gave you my impression from using them and thought the Tau suck. I was also talking only about firewarriors. Why are you always so fething salty about everything? Lol. Get a grip homie.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'll be honest, I went back and looked at the Guard codex some more and while there were strong things in there all I got out of it was how to make a Catachan army that stabs things to death with their knives.

FRFSRF > Charge > try and sweep the rest?

I don't know, I feel like there is a lot of interesting stuff in the book outside of the core that people aren't looking at because it's not the easiest way to win, or because it doesn't fit the Cadian gunline (which is the most vanilla, but arguably strongest, build you can have, especially with CP recovery warlords).

Oh god yes. I think about funky combos in that book all the time too, but most people just stand around and shoot as much as possible. The army is so damn flexible and players waste the potential.

I love to use the mamorth Tuskblade with Straken and a priest around. That's some serious damage that is totally unexpected from guard. Only things that keep it from being great is that Chimeras kinda suck and the officers are squishy as hell.

 Valentine009 wrote:
I don't know if this actually goes into the decision making process, but it may be because AdMech is especially dependent on command points to make thier army useful. As a result cheap infantry + cheap HQs (with the new Enginseer), are way more important for them than other factions, especially because you want to load up your heavy support slots with as much points as possible.

I feel like the Rangers might have also been given a price cut because they lack the bonus rule Vanguard have (which makes Vanguard more likely to get up the table and do stuff since they can fight back better, or if they're Graia, shoot people in the face while in melee), and they don't have the range or power of the Destroyers. They're good, but when compared to the other two options they're meh at best. Only one that seems to be worse is the Breachers, but that has to do with those being a unit that have to be shooting AND melee while not being fast or having good transport options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Colonel Cross wrote:

Martel732 wrote:I've never lost to a primaris list, btw. That includes games with index ba. Tau have a lot of 2 damage weapons on top of str 5 everywhere. This does not invoke faith in your anecdotes.

Well I do play guard and said I was using my friends Tau force to play against his Primaris force ... Literally gave you my impression from using them and thought the Tau suck. I was also talking only about firewarriors. Why are you always so fething salty about everything? Lol. Get a grip homie.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'll be honest, I went back and looked at the Guard codex some more and while there were strong things in there all I got out of it was how to make a Catachan army that stabs things to death with their knives.

FRFSRF > Charge > try and sweep the rest?

I don't know, I feel like there is a lot of interesting stuff in the book outside of the core that people aren't looking at because it's not the easiest way to win, or because it doesn't fit the Cadian gunline (which is the most vanilla, but arguably strongest, build you can have, especially with CP recovery warlords).

Oh god yes. I think about funky combos in that book all the time too, but most people just stand around and shoot as much as possible. The army is so damn flexible and players waste the potential.

I love to use the mamorth Tuskblade with Straken and a priest around. That's some serious damage that is totally unexpected from guard. Only things that keep it from being great is that Chimeras kinda suck and the officers are squishy as hell.

The generic power sword is pretty decent too (though the damage is more swingy at 1d3). Powerfists look good on Catachan as well (S8 on a T3 model is hilarious).

And yes, Chimeras aren't great, but I think since I'm used to vehicles dying horribly after dropping stuff off I wouldn't feel too bad about losing them late in the game.

Officers are definitely squishy though, but for such a cheap model I can live with that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'll be honest, I went back and looked at the Guard codex some more and while there were strong things in there all I got out of it was how to make a Catachan army that stabs things to death with their knives.

FRFSRF > Charge > try and sweep the rest?

I don't know, I feel like there is a lot of interesting stuff in the book outside of the core that people aren't looking at because it's not the easiest way to win, or because it doesn't fit the Cadian gunline (which is the most vanilla, but arguably strongest, build you can have, especially with CP recovery warlords).

The problem with a lot of those other concepts isn't just that theyre not optimal, its that often they just dont work even passingly well. Yeah, you can make funky thematic combos like Ogryn supported Catachan CC lists, but they're going to lead to a lot of games with a predecided outcome in favor of your opponent. Some people are ok with that, but thats not generally going to be a major selling point of any army. IG has had the flexibility to do a lot of these things in most editions, you could make such a force in older editoons as well; but theyve never been very good. Hell, my Stormtrooper army ive been trying to make work since 4E, consisting of chimera mounted stormtroopers, hasn't ever really worked for squat except when proxied as a Mechvets force in 5E, and certainly wouldnt be much fun in 8E.

It also doesnt help that, as you noted, while some units in the codex are very good indeed, there's still a lot of units that either dont fit into doctrine oriented forces well, but there also lots that are just plain bad (e.g. Vanquisher, Eradicator, Deathstrike, Ogryns, Chimeras, Bane Wolfs, etc) and the units that are legitimately good also generally happen to be the ones that synergize best with the two dominant doctrines (catachan and cadian).

Because ig players are pissing me off in 8th. That's why im salty.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

fe40k wrote:
1 Ork Shoota Boy = 6ppm
WS3+, BS4+, S4, T4, W1, A2, SV6+
Shoota: 18", Assault 2, S4
Mob Rule

Quick correction, Ork Boyz are BS5+.

Agree on all your points though.

I was trying to type this up sneakily in a meeting - I meant to go back and correct that, but I guess I got distracted, haha.

Edited.