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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 18:16:10
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Vaktathi wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:I'll be honest, I went back and looked at the Guard codex some more and while there were strong things in there all I got out of it was how to make a Catachan army that stabs things to death with their knives.
FRFSRF > Charge > try and sweep the rest?
I don't know, I feel like there is a lot of interesting stuff in the book outside of the core that people aren't looking at because it's not the easiest way to win, or because it doesn't fit the Cadian gunline (which is the most vanilla, but arguably strongest, build you can have, especially with CP recovery warlords).
The problem with a lot of those other concepts isn't just that theyre not optimal, its that often they just dont work even passingly well. Yeah, you can make funky thematic combos like Ogryn supported Catachan CC lists, but they're going to lead to a lot of games with a predecided outcome in favor of your opponent. Some people are ok with that, but thats not generally going to be a major selling point of any army. IG has had the flexibility to do a lot of these things in most editions, you could make such a force in older editoons as well; but theyve never been very good. Hell, my Stormtrooper army ive been trying to make work since 4E, consisting of chimera mounted stormtroopers, hasn't ever really worked for squat except when proxied as a Mechvets force in 5E, and certainly wouldnt be much fun in 8E.
It also doesnt help that, as you noted, while some units in the codex are very good indeed, there's still a lot of units that either dont fit into doctrine oriented forces well, but there also lots that are just plain bad (e.g. Vanquisher, Eradicator, Deathstrike, Ogryns, Chimeras, Bane Wolfs, etc) and the units that are legitimately good also generally happen to be the ones that synergize best with the two dominant doctrines (catachan and cadian).
I wasn't looking at Ogryn honestly, but more a Mech Guard style army that gets close and tries to sweep things they shoot. Well that or just running so many Infantry Squads on foot my opponent literally can't kill them all in a normal game.
I like Doctrines just like I like Chapter Tactics because they can help make armies fluffier by giving bonuses to playing a certain way. That said, there are definitely less interesting ways to play the same rules (go all tanks and run Catachan for example).
And I'd say Vostroyans are a good gunline if only because basically everything in their army can reach out and touch the opponent easier. Good models too if you can handle metal that is. They're not Cadia tier (only because of the lack of free rerolls for not moving) but they're still good.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 18:18:42
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I know the whole AdMech thing is off topic, but what Skitarii really need is transports of some kind. With the loss of Scout, they're even less quick than before.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 18:22:37
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I know the whole AdMech thing is off topic, but what Skitarii really need is transports of some kind. With the loss of Scout, they're even less quick than before.
Lorewise the Dunecrawler is based off of an ancient transport design, so I could see it getting an alternate kit for a transport variant in the future.
And yeah, since Rangers lose their extra movement bonuses they're definitely not as interesting to most people I think. I've only seen them as a way to run the Arquebus and not really anything else.
That aside, they really could be 7 or 8 points when compared to the game overall. They're kind of a 7.5ppm unit so it's kind of close either way.
Regardless, pushing regular guard to 5ppm still works for me (makes Conscripts better by making them the cheaper option again, and makes Vets feel less like a major investment over regular Guard. Basically it helps internal codex balance a bit).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 18:39:44
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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ClockworkZion wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I know the whole AdMech thing is off topic, but what Skitarii really need is transports of some kind. With the loss of Scout, they're even less quick than before.
Lorewise the Dunecrawler is based off of an ancient transport design, so I could see it getting an alternate kit for a transport variant in the future.
And yeah, since Rangers lose their extra movement bonuses they're definitely not as interesting to most people I think. I've only seen them as a way to run the Arquebus and not really anything else.
That aside, they really could be 7 or 8 points when compared to the game overall. They're kind of a 7.5ppm unit so it's kind of close either way.
Regardless, pushing regular guard to 5ppm still works for me (makes Conscripts better by making them the cheaper option again, and makes Vets feel less like a major investment over regular Guard. Basically it helps internal codex balance a bit).
I personally think Conscripts need to go back to 3 points (they were already hit enough in the codex), Infantry squads be 5 points, and Vets go back to Troops and being 6.5 per model instead of 7 (you're not able to buy extra dudes anyway, so does the decimal value matter?)
Or were Vets 6 points? If they are thay can stay at that point cost if they're moved to Troops. It's ridiculous that they're not troops but Scions are.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 18:42:02
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I know the whole AdMech thing is off topic, but what Skitarii really need is transports of some kind. With the loss of Scout, they're even less quick than before.
Lorewise the Dunecrawler is based off of an ancient transport design, so I could see it getting an alternate kit for a transport variant in the future.
And yeah, since Rangers lose their extra movement bonuses they're definitely not as interesting to most people I think. I've only seen them as a way to run the Arquebus and not really anything else.
That aside, they really could be 7 or 8 points when compared to the game overall. They're kind of a 7.5ppm unit so it's kind of close either way.
Regardless, pushing regular guard to 5ppm still works for me (makes Conscripts better by making them the cheaper option again, and makes Vets feel less like a major investment over regular Guard. Basically it helps internal codex balance a bit).
I personally think Conscripts need to go back to 3 points (they were already hit enough in the codex), Infantry squads be 5 points, and Vets go back to Troops and being 6.5 per model instead of 7 (you're not able to buy extra dudes anyway, so does the decimal value matter?)
Or were Vets 6 points? If they are thay can stay at that point cost if they're moved to Troops. It's ridiculous that they're not troops but Scions are.
I don't like the idea of pushing Conscripts back down in points. 40 for 10 feels right to me. And no half points please. It's fiddly and annoying.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 18:47:59
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I'm of the opinion that while the ppm for Conscripts can be adjusted vs standard Guard, the real problem is unnerfing Commissars.
Let them have their original BLAM back, it's not a big deal on a 10 man Guard unit. Just make Conscripts able to use the Commie's Ld, but be immune to BLAM.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 18:49:53
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Valentine009 wrote:
Reading it like that, I never realized how point efficient Skitarii are.
1 Skitarii Ranger = 7ppm
WS 4+, BS3+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV4+, 6++
Galvanic Rifle: 30'', Rapid Fire 1, S4 (6's to hit -1 AP)
Canticles, Forgeworld
They are a really good unit but they suffer heavily when you beyond the basic models.
For example in my planned Custodes army I run a Guard battalion detachment of 329 points.
(2 Tempestor Prime's, 3x5 Scions with 2 plasma guns and 1 plasma pistol)
There is no ~300 point version I can make with the Admech (or any other Imperial codex) that is even remotely as efficient as that Scion package. And that is before I add in the CP recyclotron of Grand Stratagist + Kurov's Aquilla.
Rangers are great for their cost but they have to foot slog and you pay a premium for everything else good in the book.
And yet with Guard you get pretty much everything at top dollar for what it does.
Automatically Appended Next Post: frightnight wrote:I'm of the opinion that while the ppm for Conscripts can be adjusted vs standard Guard, the real problem is unnerfing Commissars.
Let them have their original BLAM back, it's not a big deal on a 10 man Guard unit. Just make Conscripts able to use the Commie's Ld, but be immune to BLAM.
No, 3-4 squads of moral immune models is most definitely a problem for the cheap cheap price of a Commissar.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/09 18:52:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 18:55:55
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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ClockworkZion wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I know the whole AdMech thing is off topic, but what Skitarii really need is transports of some kind. With the loss of Scout, they're even less quick than before.
Lorewise the Dunecrawler is based off of an ancient transport design, so I could see it getting an alternate kit for a transport variant in the future.
And yeah, since Rangers lose their extra movement bonuses they're definitely not as interesting to most people I think. I've only seen them as a way to run the Arquebus and not really anything else.
That aside, they really could be 7 or 8 points when compared to the game overall. They're kind of a 7.5ppm unit so it's kind of close either way.
Regardless, pushing regular guard to 5ppm still works for me (makes Conscripts better by making them the cheaper option again, and makes Vets feel less like a major investment over regular Guard. Basically it helps internal codex balance a bit).
I personally think Conscripts need to go back to 3 points (they were already hit enough in the codex), Infantry squads be 5 points, and Vets go back to Troops and being 6.5 per model instead of 7 (you're not able to buy extra dudes anyway, so does the decimal value matter?)
Or were Vets 6 points? If they are thay can stay at that point cost if they're moved to Troops. It's ridiculous that they're not troops but Scions are.
I don't like the idea of pushing Conscripts back down in points. 40 for 10 feels right to me. And no half points please. It's fiddly and annoying.
Half points work if you can't add or subtract the number of dudes in a squad.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:03:22
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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I don't have a book on hand, but are Veterans locked into set unit sizes?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:10:43
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Daedalus81 wrote: Kanluwen wrote:
These numbers don't work. It would be 38 Lasguns firing--Sergeants don't have them and cannot be affected by FRFSRF since it's Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns only.
Also, are you using a Platoon Commander or a Company Commander? 2 Infantry Squads, base, would be 80 pts--Company Commanders(the only way to issue 2 Orders) are 30 points. Don't answer--I know you used the Platoon Commander, meaning that only one of those squads is going to be outputting 20 shots at 24", the other is outputting 10 shots.
20 IS so 40 shots. Sure, ok, a goof on the commander there. The Tau get an extra model, which changes practically nothing.
You seem to be missing the point. In order to get 20 Lasgun shots, you need to have at minimum 3 Infantry Squads(9 models in a squad can have Lasguns, Sergeants can never benefit from FRFSRF) OR be a Conscript Squad(which means that you're at BS5+ with LD4).
Additionally, does this factor in that Tau can potentially start in long range while Guard can't?
Sure - look at the numbers. Tau are not cranking out the damage to make the IS worry at all.
You're just pointing at numbers right now. 6" is a fairly big difference in range when we're talking about the difference between just starting deployment vs actually playing the game.
There's a 6" difference in Lasguns and Pulse Rifles. Vostroyans can balance it out, but Tau can still eke ahead if they have a bare minimum Pathfinder Team with a Pulse Accelerator Drone in 3" of them(granting an additional 6" of range for their Pulse Rifles--meaning it's a whopping 36" basic weapon that Rapid Fires at 18 inches or less).
Yes, yes, yes it's 'more points' or 'shifting the goalposts' but given that you're trying to massage the data to be the 'perfect storm' of Guardsmen functioning...
You mean the drone you can target and blow up with a spiffy LOS weapon and the pathfinder team that takes up a FA slot? There's also only so much table. You can't sit your fire warriors on the back edge and expect them to have good line of sight through all the terrain in front of them.
You can if the terrain is a Tidewall, just sayin'.
The point that you're missing is that the Commander is literally just there to provide Orders and to unlock Command Squads in Matched Play.
And the point you're missing is that is what the Fireblade is there just for an aura. Adding ONE shot does basically nothing to adjust the overall calculus.
Sure, he adds one shot.
Or he adds a Markerlight counter(which a Stratagem can multiply to 3).
Or he brings Markerlight Drones.
Or Shield Drones.
Or just Gun Drones.
The Fireblade brings something aside from just his Aura. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes.
The only Guard units that can be fielded in variable sizes are:
Vehicles(barring Deathstrikes, Manticores, Dedicated Transports, and Superheavies). If you take Sentinels, they cannot be Vehicle Squadroned out like the rest.
Conscripts(20 to 30 models)
Scions(Start at 5, up to 10)
Auxiliary Units(Ogryn, Ratlings, Crusaders, and Wyrdvane Psykers. Servitors are fixed unit sizes of 4.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 19:14:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:15:05
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Ordana wrote:
frightnight wrote:I'm of the opinion that while the ppm for Conscripts can be adjusted vs standard Guard, the real problem is unnerfing Commissars.
Let them have their original BLAM back, it's not a big deal on a 10 man Guard unit. Just make Conscripts able to use the Commie's Ld, but be immune to BLAM.
No, 3-4 squads of moral immune models is most definitely a problem for the cheap cheap price of a Commissar.
I'm thinking if you can't just straight up murder those T3 5+ save guys into ineffectiveness there might be other issues at hand. And I play Night Lords, so I want lots of morale checks...
But maybe make BLAM only once a round?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 19:15:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:18:06
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Clousseau
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Just make a commissar 400 points and bring back his old ability.
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:20:33
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I know the whole AdMech thing is off topic, but what Skitarii really need is transports of some kind. With the loss of Scout, they're even less quick than before.
Skitarii got screwed in a lot more ways than just the loss of Scout.
Rangers lost their Precision Shots on Galvanic Rifles(it wasn't a thing that you could super rely upon--but it made a difference when it worked). Ballistarii had it as well on their Cognis weapons.
Transauranic Arquebi lost their effectiveness versus vehicles(Armourbane allowed for you to do 2D6 cumulative versus tanks).
The Sicarian, in general, need to be revisited. Infiltrators lost their negative Aura that helped them a bit and Ruststalkers lost their tricksy grenades(and the Transsonic rules but meh).
If I had my way? Galvanic Rifles would get a stratagem allowing for them to have Sniper for a turn to let Rangers go character hunting. Ballistarii would get Sniper, period, on their profiles.
Arquebi would get to roll an additional D6 when rolling to Wound or they'd get the kinda 'beam' weapon rules we've seen before.
Sicarian just need something to feel useful.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:20:35
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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If I recall, both Vets and Infantry are locked at 10 dudes.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:21:35
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Marmatag wrote:Just make a commissar 400 points and bring back his old ability.
Pft. You don't even have to do that.
Make it so that Commissars are locked, 1 for every Company Commander taken. Taking a Lord Commissar unlocks 2.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:25:17
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Insectum7 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Insectum7 wrote:And Orks don't get Space Marines, because they're Orks. Mind-boggling concept, I know.
You're deliberately being obtuse at this point. Orks can get units with similar roles, and you can compare efficiency. This is NOT rocket science to figure out. Mind-boggling concept, I know. Nope. Theres no reason for armies to even have comparable units. Tau don't get assault terminators, marines don't get heavy artillery, and IG don't get greater daemons. Welcome to the faction diversity of 40k.
Hazard Suits going into melee (which did happen, but they became stupid expensive at the end of it) are the best comparison to Terminators and what they're meant to be (I like you tried to separate them as though that mattered. Good one!) Which is an elite shock close quarters shock trooper, I see no hammers on the Hazard suits. Or Powerfists for that matter. The units are different as designed, and this is a feature not a bug. You can wan't Terminators to be something they aren't, but even the shooty ones are "mixed role" with heavily dedicated CC armament and ability. Slayer-Fan123 wrote:and Marines have plenty of artillery. What makes it "heavy" to you? The artillery is going to be categorized by price and the target it beat goes after. I'm not sure you can get many on your side for this one. The Whirlwind is definitely "light" artillery, topping out at S7 AP1-, while the Guard get S 9 and 10 with -2 and -3 save mods. The difference is pretty clear. Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Greater Daemon isn't a category so I don't know what you really want. Distraction perhaps? The better comparison there would be doing Greater Daemons vs other Monstrous Creatures in other armies. Good job being disingenuous again though. Uh huh. And do IG get Monstrous Creatures? They sure don't. They get big tanks, Chaos gets big asaulty/psychic-ey monstrous creatures. Armies get their own things with their own emphasis. Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I didn't miss the point. Insectum keeps saying "hurrdurr they're not the same unit so you can't compare" when they're the same exact role so you CAN compare. It's seriously not a hard concept to grasp if he'd put a modicum of effort into using his head. So your argument is that Hive Guard are the exact same as Manticores then? Because they aren't. You're just looking at the ability to indirect fire (with only one of their weapon choices) and pinning it down to that. Loosely they're both firepower oriented but the Hive Guard can pop out of tunnels with Assault guns as well, fight in hand to hand, etc. They are different. (If you're going to say Hazard Suits = Terminators, I could just as easily say Hive Guard = Terminators, by your logic.) Not to mention that Tyranids and IG tend to fight completely differently as well, and similar units in different armies can be worth different amounts because of the greater context in which they are deployed. This is the old "What's the value of a Drop Pod since you can put so many different units in them?" As a Pod is clearly worth more to units loaded up with Special and Heavy Weapons over units armed with merely Bolters or CC weapons, but it's cost remains the same. None of this even touches, "Tactics/Doctrines", Stratagems etc. A full Hive Guard unit can fire twice in a round with a Stratagem, and that's some good ***t. So sure, you can compare units across codexes, but it requires more nuance than unit-x-to-unit-y-math-go!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 19:29:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:26:28
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Kanluwen wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I know the whole AdMech thing is off topic, but what Skitarii really need is transports of some kind. With the loss of Scout, they're even less quick than before.
Skitarii got screwed in a lot more ways than just the loss of Scout.
Rangers lost their Precision Shots on Galvanic Rifles(it wasn't a thing that you could super rely upon--but it made a difference when it worked). Ballistarii had it as well on their Cognis weapons.
Transauranic Arquebi lost their effectiveness versus vehicles(Armourbane allowed for you to do 2D6 cumulative versus tanks).
The Sicarian, in general, need to be revisited. Infiltrators lost their negative Aura that helped them a bit and Ruststalkers lost their tricksy grenades(and the Transsonic rules but meh).
If I had my way? Galvanic Rifles would get a stratagem allowing for them to have Sniper for a turn to let Rangers go character hunting. Ballistarii would get Sniper, period, on their profiles.
Arquebi would get to roll an additional D6 when rolling to Wound or they'd get the kinda 'beam' weapon rules we've seen before.
Sicarian just need something to feel useful.
The Arq is a lot better than it was, but granted not by much. You never had a reason to buy it over the Arc Rifle when you already had ways to get close.
Otherwise I AM in agreement with you. I had a ball of a time in 7th allying in Scions to steal their stupid trucks, and I would run my Vanguard up with those and the Rangers just behind with the Arqs (I bought them modeled as such, otherwise Arc Rifles were strictly the better choice), and then my Scions ready for their Suicide drops.
I wouldn't have needed to ally in anything if I just had one transport option. Even if it were the current Chimera I WOULD make a way for the army to work.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:33:25
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Clousseau
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Kanluwen wrote: Marmatag wrote:Just make a commissar 400 points and bring back his old ability.
Pft. You don't even have to do that.
Make it so that Commissars are locked, 1 for every Company Commander taken. Taking a Lord Commissar unlocks 2.
Not good enough. Sorry. Pre-commissar nerf Guard were ridiculously unbeatable. The same netlist was dominating every event, finishing with multiple copies of it in the top 5 all going undefeated. Pass. 100% pass.
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:46:37
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Vaktathi wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:I'll be honest, I went back and looked at the Guard codex some more and while there were strong things in there all I got out of it was how to make a Catachan army that stabs things to death with their knives.
FRFSRF > Charge > try and sweep the rest?
I don't know, I feel like there is a lot of interesting stuff in the book outside of the core that people aren't looking at because it's not the easiest way to win, or because it doesn't fit the Cadian gunline (which is the most vanilla, but arguably strongest, build you can have, especially with CP recovery warlords).
The problem with a lot of those other concepts isn't just that theyre not optimal, its that often they just dont work even passingly well. Yeah, you can make funky thematic combos like Ogryn supported Catachan CC lists, but they're going to lead to a lot of games with a predecided outcome in favor of your opponent. Some people are ok with that, but thats not generally going to be a major selling point of any army. IG has had the flexibility to do a lot of these things in most editions, you could make such a force in older editoons as well; but theyve never been very good. Hell, my Stormtrooper army ive been trying to make work since 4E, consisting of chimera mounted stormtroopers, hasn't ever really worked for squat except when proxied as a Mechvets force in 5E, and certainly wouldnt be much fun in 8E.
It also doesnt help that, as you noted, while some units in the codex are very good indeed, there's still a lot of units that either dont fit into doctrine oriented forces well, but there also lots that are just plain bad (e.g. Vanquisher, Eradicator, Deathstrike, Ogryns, Chimeras, Bane Wolfs, etc) and the units that are legitimately good also generally happen to be the ones that synergize best with the two dominant doctrines (catachan and cadian).
I don't think enough people have taken it from concept to table for that to be true. If I were made of money I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Case in point (not a thoughtful list, but something that shows a derided unit - even in posts above - can be very successful):
https://spikeybits.com/2018/02/why-the-15-hellhound-ringer-army-is-my-hero.html
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:47:34
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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I think the reason the current Commissar looks bad is because people want the one that was completely better they had before.
Regardless of the reason of why, if a certain combo dominates with no reasonable counters being available then that combo needs to be nerfed. Unnerfing it because something stronger comes along isn't the solution, the solution is to fix that thing that is stronger and bring everything down to the same level (or bring things up if they're too weak and never see the table).
By extension, just because something doesn't get fixed the first time (cost of Infantry squads which really should be more than they are and that's speaking even as someone who has become interested in running a Guard army for the first time since ever) doesn't mean it shouldn't be corrected when the imbalance is spotted later.
The Guard are still really good even after the thought of bumping Infantry squads up 10 points/unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:50:13
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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Methinks we are vastly overvaluing the Commissar, especially outside the Conscript application. Given the subsequent changes to Conscripts and other things, as well as multiple subsequent codex releases, I hardly think we'd see Commissars radically alter anything if changed back, and the Commissar never had anything near the utility on things like 10man infantry squads that they did on Conscripts.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 19:50:59
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:53:02
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Daedalus81 wrote: Vaktathi wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:I'll be honest, I went back and looked at the Guard codex some more and while there were strong things in there all I got out of it was how to make a Catachan army that stabs things to death with their knives.
FRFSRF > Charge > try and sweep the rest?
I don't know, I feel like there is a lot of interesting stuff in the book outside of the core that people aren't looking at because it's not the easiest way to win, or because it doesn't fit the Cadian gunline (which is the most vanilla, but arguably strongest, build you can have, especially with CP recovery warlords).
The problem with a lot of those other concepts isn't just that theyre not optimal, its that often they just dont work even passingly well. Yeah, you can make funky thematic combos like Ogryn supported Catachan CC lists, but they're going to lead to a lot of games with a predecided outcome in favor of your opponent. Some people are ok with that, but thats not generally going to be a major selling point of any army. IG has had the flexibility to do a lot of these things in most editions, you could make such a force in older editoons as well; but theyve never been very good. Hell, my Stormtrooper army ive been trying to make work since 4E, consisting of chimera mounted stormtroopers, hasn't ever really worked for squat except when proxied as a Mechvets force in 5E, and certainly wouldnt be much fun in 8E.
It also doesnt help that, as you noted, while some units in the codex are very good indeed, there's still a lot of units that either dont fit into doctrine oriented forces well, but there also lots that are just plain bad (e.g. Vanquisher, Eradicator, Deathstrike, Ogryns, Chimeras, Bane Wolfs, etc) and the units that are legitimately good also generally happen to be the ones that synergize best with the two dominant doctrines (catachan and cadian).
I don't think enough people have taken it from concept to table for that to be true. If I were made of money I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Case in point (not a thoughtful list, but something that shows a derided unit - even in posts above - can be very successful):
https://spikeybits.com/2018/02/why-the-15-hellhound-ringer-army-is-my-hero.html
15 Hellhounds is silly for sure, but they are a solid choice in Guard regardless of which Doctrine you run.
And yes, it definitely is a thing that the army ideas people dream up don't always see the table. Thankfully I'm getting a tax return this month which will go towards my plastic crack addiction so at least I'll be putting my craziness into reality.
Seriously, why take a rule that makes your dudes better at punching things if you're not going to punch things? I'm still fiddling with how to build the army, but punching things is going to be a thing. Actually now I kind of want to do some math to see if Catachan melee wounds more than their shooting (before factoring in special weapons).... Automatically Appended Next Post: Vaktathi wrote:Methinks we are vastly overvaluing the Commissar, especially outside the Conscript application. Given the subsequent changes to Conscripts and other things, as well as multiple subsequent codex releases, I hardly think we'd see Commissars radically alter anything if changed back, and the Commissar never had anything near the utility on things like 10man infantry squads that they did on Conscripts.
Perhaps, but I think that it's more likely that we won't see a rollback on changes if there is a problem but rather something else done if the Commissar is truly worthless in their current form.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 19:54:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 19:55:46
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Dakka Veteran
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Vaktathi wrote:Methinks we are vastly overvaluing the Commissar, especially outside the Conscript application. Given the subsequent changes to Conscripts and other things, as well as multiple subsequent codex releases, I hardly think we'd see Commissars radically alter anything if changed back, and the Commissar never had anything near the utility on things like 10man infantry squads that they did on Conscripts.
Morale immunity was the problem; and it will be a problem just as much now as it was back then.
Morale is designed to kill large squads of cheap models - if you can't Morale kill them, then you have no opportunity of getting through them in a reasonable time frame. THAT was the real problem (along with the massive dice rolling output when under orders).
It was simply too much - and would be nowadays as well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 20:03:23
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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I never used conscripts but I did run pre Nerf Commissars. You folks do realize that the Commissar without upgraded weapons was 3/4 the cost of an infantry squad? I used to run 2 of them in my 2k infantry list. But since I stopped using them I managed to get more infantry with another plasma gun or two. Commissars aren't missed and if you brought them back to index level, I doubt we'd see many return to the table top. (Although who knows, conscripts would probably come back, especially if guardsmen go up to 5ppm)
And punchy Catachan lists can work. Just only against non CC dedicated armies.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 20:07:06
5k Imperial Guard
2k Ad Mech |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 20:09:34
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Colonel Cross wrote:I never used conscripts but I did run pre Nerf Commissars. You folks do realize that the Commissar without upgraded weapons was 3/4 the cost of an infantry squad? I used to run 2 of them in my 2k infantry list. But since I stopped using them I managed to get more infantry with another plasma gun or two. Commissars aren't missed and if you brought them back to index level, I doubt we'd see many return to the table top.
And punchy Catachan lists can work. Just only against non CC dedicated armies.
To be fair, I was thinking punchy Catachan would be like more fragile punchy Marines: mostly shooty with okay melee options. Basically I wouldn't expect them to wipe something like Genestealers (that's what the artillery is for  ).
Commissars were an issue in the competitive scene. While people wants to pretend that it doesn't effect their more casual metas there are always going to be issues with people latching onto strong netlist combos (especially veteran players who can just shuffle their collection around a little to make it work without spending more money) and using them to try and steam roll people.
Basically just because the problem is bigger in the tournament scene doesn't mean it's not a problem. Anytime the game can be abused like that should be addressed, regardless of source.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 20:11:21
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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fe40k wrote: An Actual Englishman wrote:fe40k wrote:1 Ork Shoota Boy = 6ppm
WS3+, BS4+, S4, T4, W1, A2, SV6+
Shoota: 18", Assault 2, S4
Mob Rule
Quick correction, Ork Boyz are BS5+.
Agree on all your points though.
I was trying to type this up sneakily in a meeting - I meant to go back and correct that, but I guess I got distracted, haha.
Edited.
Get back to work!
Apologies for the pedantry, I've made enough typos in my time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 20:20:22
Subject: Re:March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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I, for one, would like to see Soup lists go away. I started playing in 3rd edition, so I have a long acquaintance of lists being from one codex. From 3rd through 5th edition, the game has - theoretically - been one of asymmetrical symmetry - one where no two armies had exactly the same units, but where they were all at least roughly equal to each other in terms of being able to win games.
Now yes, in practice, that has never really been the case - probably came closest in 5th ed, but that worthy goal was never completely reached. However, that was due to GW's neglect of the meta. Take the 5th ed rules with the attention GW is currently paying, and I think we'd stand a chance of seeing the asymmetrical symmetry work.
Being able to throw units from multiple dexes into one list throws a major wrench into the works. Armies are supposed to have some strengths and weaknesses. If a player who plays Army A can cover its weaknesses by including in his lists units from Army B, then Army A might as well not have those weaknesses in the first place.
At the very least, there ought to be some incentive to playing mono-faction, mono-detachment lists, and a cost to playing multii-faction and/or multi-detachment. Currently, there is neither, which effectively punishes players for playing mono-faction and for filling out a single detachment rather than taking multiple detachments to farm Command Points.
Also, from an aesthetic standpoint, all the factions are designed to have a particular look, so the units' appearances harmonize with each other and look good on the tabletop. This has been GW's real strength through the editions, but having multi-faction lists dilutes the appearance of armies on the table, as their units have conflicting aesthetics.
Finally, enabling Soup lists is just not fair to players who don't play the multi-dex factions that can pull units from mulitple sources.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 20:28:03
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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I started in 2nd and quite after 3.5. I'm back now and I was thinking that going back to the min/max percentages that were in 2nd ed.might solve some problems with soup. IIRC, you were allowed to take allies with a max of 25% of your points. You mostly had maximums for models types except for Troops which required you to have 25% of you points in them.
It wouldn't get rid of soup but it would cut down on the amount of ingerdients. You could limit allies to key words in 8th so that the ally had to have at least 1 key word match to your main force. Of course CPs would have to be totally reworked but that's another issue.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 20:28:13
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Honestly I rather hate the term "soup". It made sense when everything was being thrown into a single pot (detachment) with the indicies but now you're getting a full meal made of separate dishes (detachments).
Basically it's no different than the allied armies of 6th and 7th in execution so I don't see the point of calling "soup" anymore.
That said, there are a LOT of fluffy reasons to mix armies, but yes, we definitely lack some rewards for monocodex (relics don't count since you can just buy into some by spending CP for your allied armies). I don't want to see them go away, but there definitely needs to be a way to balance this more so people don't immediately latch onto building multiple detachments out of multiple books as the strongest method.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/09 20:29:13
Subject: March FAQ - Upcoming Guard Nerf
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Clousseau
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Colonel Cross wrote:I never used conscripts but I did run pre Nerf Commissars. You folks do realize that the Commissar without upgraded weapons was 3/4 the cost of an infantry squad? I used to run 2 of them in my 2k infantry list. But since I stopped using them I managed to get more infantry with another plasma gun or two. Commissars aren't missed and if you brought them back to index level, I doubt we'd see many return to the table top. (Although who knows, conscripts would probably come back, especially if guardsmen go up to 5ppm) And punchy Catachan lists can work. Just only against non CC dedicated armies. I appreciate your position. You weren't using Commissars in the same way competitive players were, and it's clear from your posts that you do not consider yourself a competitive player. So it makes sense you'd be frustrated with the nerf, taking the beer and pretzels approach to the game. Hopefully you can understand that the unit was being used to create serious balance issues for the rest of us. Units are balanced around how they are played in a broad sense. In other words, the needs of the many > the needs of the few.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/09 20:29:54
Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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