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 Bobthehero wrote:
Deepstrike for 5ppm? That's ridiculous

How is this ridiculous? Deep strike is incredibly valuable for a squad that spams effective plasma and is decently durable.

A 5 man assault squad with deep strike costs 70 points. They have chainswords and bolt pistols.

I have to bring a Trygon, or a sporocyst to deep strike my guys. It would be cheaper and more effective if i could just pay 5ppm.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, I prefer mech-Scions all the way, but theres nearly 0 reasons to use them. Just deepstrike where you want them to be.

So reduce Scions by 2 ppm and make deepstrike a 2ppm upgrade. You can mech, I can airborne.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, I prefer mech-Scions all the way, but theres nearly 0 reasons to use them. Just deepstrike where you want them to be.

So reduce Scions by 2 ppm and make deepstrike a 2ppm upgrade. You can mech, I can airborne.

The cost of the deepstrike upgrade can vary based in balance, of course. But yeah I think Scions should have deepstrike as an upgrade, if you want to deepstrike them or run them in transports.

I don't disagree wirh that, I disagree with the 5ppm cost.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I don't disagree wirh that, I disagree with the 5ppm cost.

Well everyone else pays more than 2ppm, so i don't know how you're coming up with that number.

On a bit of a tangent here with the special weapons, but does anybody else feel that Plasma and Melta costs should be swapped? In most cases, it feels like taking a Melta is the worse choice, and yet it is the more expensive option. At anything above 12", Plasma is completely better, and below 12" it can fire twice to make up for Melta's d6 damage. Basically the only situation I can think of where Melta wins is if you are within 6" of an enemy unit with a good number of wounds.

I think I mentioned before, but with a Scion Deep Strike (say add 3 points) cost increase, I'd also kind of like to see a small discount on 3+ special weapons (say subtract 3 points), to add some variation between Veterans, Foot/Mech Scions, and Deep Strike Scions. If melta was 7/10 and Plasma was 9/14 points, and Deep Strike was 3 points on scions, you'd have: Veteran with Plasma - 20 points, Scion with Plasma - 23 points, Deep Strike Plasma Scion - 26 points, vs the current - Vet with Plasma 19 points, Scion with Plasma 22 Points. That way Plasma, the abused weapon type, gets a nerf, while Melta, the gun that to me at least feels worse in most ways, gets a buff and might see more use.

Dandelion wrote:

If I had the choice, I would scrap all that for IG orders in a heartbeat.
-FRFSRF: double your basic weapon shots (stupid good, only Guilliman's aura is better and he's like 400 pts)
-Move, Move, Move: Unit can potentially move a total of 19" on average in the turn. (stupid good again, very useful for objectives, no one else has this)
-Get back in the fight: withdraw and still fire (again, very useful)
etc...

-Balanced by the fact that IG has one of the worst basic weapons in the game. A similar order would be totally OP with bolters or similar weapons.
-Balanced by the fact that IG squads aren't great in close combat, so it's only used for tactical redeployment and grabbing objectives (admittedly very useful), not really used to be almost in the enemy deployment zone by turn 1. A similar order would be totally OP given to a good CC unit, or any unit in an army that relies on getting in close as soon as possible.
-Balanced by the fact that an IG squad has limited firepower to begin with, and if it has been in close combat already it has probably suffered losses.

IG gets all these rad buffs because the units that can receive said buffs aren't that powerful to begin with.


Regarding soup; there used to be rules for taking Inquisition and stuff as allies in a Guard or Space Marine army, or vise versa. You could do away with the current soup and reintroduce something like that, which made more sense and was more fun, IMHO.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, I prefer mech-Scions all the way, but theres nearly 0 reasons to use them. Just deepstrike where you want them to be.

So reduce Scions by 2 ppm and make deepstrike a 2ppm upgrade. You can mech, I can airborne.

I would say that currently Scions are to cheap for what they do (as is most of the Guard codex, as I have repeatedly said) and this is coming from someone who plans to use a whole bunch of Scions in a competitive list.

78 points for 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol on 3+ BS deepstriking models is insanely good value.

What of Chimera? They need a little love as well, though whether that should come in the form of a price cut or a small buff elsewhere is beyond me.

Chimeras are probably appropriately priced, or close to it. The problem is that a 30pt HQ character can reliably make up to two squads move 12+2d6", and a 20pt Elite character can make one move that way. Not only is that amazing, but it also helps cheaply fill up a Brigade for CP harvesting. Against that, who needs Chimeras? They can't move as far, and they make it harder to fill a Brigade.

kurhanik wrote:
On a bit of a tangent here with the special weapons, but does anybody else feel that Plasma and Melta costs should be swapped? In most cases, it feels like taking a Melta is the worse choice, and yet it is the more expensive option. At anything above 12", Plasma is completely better, and below 12" it can fire twice to make up for Melta's d6 damage. Basically the only situation I can think of where Melta wins is if you are within 6" of an enemy unit with a good number of wounds.

I think I mentioned before, but with a Scion Deep Strike (say add 3 points) cost increase, I'd also kind of like to see a small discount on 3+ special weapons (say subtract 3 points), to add some variation between Veterans, Foot/Mech Scions, and Deep Strike Scions. If melta was 7/10 and Plasma was 9/14 points, and Deep Strike was 3 points on scions, you'd have: Veteran with Plasma - 20 points, Scion with Plasma - 23 points, Deep Strike Plasma Scion - 26 points, vs the current - Vet with Plasma 19 points, Scion with Plasma 22 Points. That way Plasma, the abused weapon type, gets a nerf, while Melta, the gun that to me at least feels worse in most ways, gets a buff and might see more use.

Yeah, this was my objetive with my sugerence. To give them more appropiated costs for their uselfulness, and not make foot scions and veterans pay for the crimes of Deepstriking plasma scions.

Ordana wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, I prefer mech-Scions all the way, but theres nearly 0 reasons to use them. Just deepstrike where you want them to be.

So reduce Scions by 2 ppm and make deepstrike a 2ppm upgrade. You can mech, I can airborne.

I would say that currently Scions are to cheap for what they do (as is most of the Guard codex, as I have repeatedly said) and this is coming from someone who plans to use a whole bunch of Scions in a competitive list.

78 points for 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol on 3+ BS deepstriking models is insanely good value.

Its solely in the Plasma form that they overperform really. Their base guns cannot rapid fire in their Deep Strike range, Melta cannot use its special rules in that range, and Volley Guns are heavy so they suffer a -1 to hit when using Deep Strike. Plasma meanwhile is in its sweet spot at that range.

Its why basically my #1 suggestion to nudge Scions is to swap Plasma and Melta prices to better reflect their utility. Yes, Plasma Scions would get nerfed, but on the flip side Melta Scions would have a reason to exist.

Panzergraf wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

If I had the choice, I would scrap all that for IG orders in a heartbeat.
-FRFSRF: double your basic weapon shots (stupid good, only Guilliman's aura is better and he's like 400 pts)
-Move, Move, Move: Unit can potentially move a total of 19" on average in the turn. (stupid good again, very useful for objectives, no one else has this)
-Get back in the fight: withdraw and still fire (again, very useful)
etc...

-Balanced by the fact that IG has one of the worst basic weapons in the game. A similar order would be totally OP with bolters or similar weapons.
-Balanced by the fact that IG squads aren't great in close combat, so it's only used for tactical redeployment and grabbing objectives (admittedly very useful), not really used to be almost in the enemy deployment zone by turn 1. A similar order would be totally OP given to a good CC unit, or any unit in an army that relies on getting in close as soon as possible.
-Balanced by the fact that an IG squad has limited firepower to begin with, and if it has been in close combat already it has probably suffered losses.

IG gets all these rad buffs because the units that can receive said buffs aren't that powerful to begin with.


Regarding soup; there used to be rules for taking Inquisition and stuff as allies in a Guard or Space Marine army, or vise versa. You could do away with the current soup and reintroduce something like that, which made more sense and was more fun, IMHO.

IG do NOT have the worst basic weapons in the game. They outrange almost everyone (and tie for longest if Voystron Guardsman), they output equal or more amounts of firepower within 12"/15", and can further double their firepower with a cheap order.

A Guardsman is the best basic infantry handsdown - even at 5ppm, they're still the gold standard.

With orders, they become the most mobile, most shooty, and most versatile basic trooper. They're not amazing in melee, but neither is a lot of other basic troopers; at worst, they tie.

2guardsman = 8ppm
WS/BS4+, S3, T3, W1+1, A1+1, SV5+
Lasgun: 24", Rapid Fire 1+1, S3
Orders, Regiment

1 Eldar Guardian = 8ppm
WS/BS3+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV5+
Shuriken Catapult, 12", Assault 2, S4, Wound rolls of 6+ are resolved with AP-3 instead of AP-0
Battle Focus, Craftworld

2Termagaunt = 8ppm
WS/BS4+, S3, T3, W1+1, A1+1, SV6+
Fleshborer: 12", Assault 1+1, S4
Hail of Living Ammunition, Hive Fleet, [Instinctive Behaviour]

1 Tau Firewarrior = 8ppm
WS5+, BS4+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV4+
Pulse Rifle: 30", Rapid Fire 1, S5
For the Greater Good

1 Ork Shoota Boy = 6ppm
WS3+, BS5+, S4, T4, W1, A2, SV6+
Shoota: 18", Assault 2, S4
Mob Rule

 Marmatag wrote:
There should be no morale immunity for conscripts, nor guardsmen. The Commissar shooting someone for an optional reroll is the best method in my opinion. From a lore standpoint, their ability cannot be better than "AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR," this morale ability should be the baseline by which humans take morale checks.

Why? Care to point out why a guy with a gun behind you can't be as effective than feeling less fear? It does not matter how you mitigate the fear issues, by making your men feel less, or by making them fear desertion of their post more than they do enemy. Both were tried historically, and both work (alcohol/drugs/propaganda for 'feel no fear' bit) equally well.

Especially seeing ATSKNF would still be far better all things being equal as it's A) free, B ) doesn't kill your models to work, C) SM have higher LD naturally. Do tell, when was the last time you lost any SM models to morale? How does that not show them being superior to baseline humans already?

Funnily enough, Commissars were more effective than ATSKNF for a lot of editions (just compare 5th edition's IG rerollable LD10 paired with stubborn with SM LD8 plus 'can't be swept' and tell me with a straight face SM were better) and no one minded. It's only now the 'ranged sweep' was added to the game it suddenly became an issue. Sure, maybe Commissars needed a nerf, say price raise to match their effectiveness, and also to reflect their rarity in the setting, but as of now, they are completely pointless, a shame for such an iconic 40K unit.

 Marmatag wrote:
Pre-nerf, Guard were a better horde army that Orks, and Tyranids. That right there should tell you something his HORRIBLY wrong.

You guys are absolutely understating how broken things were prior to this nerf.

Yeah, the 'pay another squad cost to kill some models to somewhat mitigate morale damage' was far better than innately being LD30 or plainly immune to morale, for free

There's hyperbole and then there's being completely wrong.

I am not opposed to Guard Infantry going up a 1 point to be 5 ppm, but all these changes have made it not worth picking up the Guard Codex. I still haven't bought my book because it feels like half the information in it is wrong now, and I don't want to pay $40 for wrong information.

At least my Blood Angels Codex is up to date (for now). Has there been any word of the Rulebook and Codexes being reprinted at a later date that incorporates all the changes?

That I could live with. Although personally I like to use Valkyries to allow Scions to use most of their weapons in an optimal fashion. For a turn at least...

kurhanik wrote:

Ordana wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, I prefer mech-Scions all the way, but theres nearly 0 reasons to use them. Just deepstrike where you want them to be.

So reduce Scions by 2 ppm and make deepstrike a 2ppm upgrade. You can mech, I can airborne.

I would say that currently Scions are to cheap for what they do (as is most of the Guard codex, as I have repeatedly said) and this is coming from someone who plans to use a whole bunch of Scions in a competitive list.

78 points for 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol on 3+ BS deepstriking models is insanely good value.

Its solely in the Plasma form that they overperform really. Their base guns cannot rapid fire in their Deep Strike range, Melta cannot use its special rules in that range, and Volley Guns are heavy so they suffer a -1 to hit when using Deep Strike. Plasma meanwhile is in its sweet spot at that range.

Its why basically my #1 suggestion to nudge Scions is to swap Plasma and Melta prices to better reflect their utility. Yes, Plasma Scions would get nerfed, but on the flip side Melta Scions would have a reason to exist.

Yeah I can see that. Sadly GW isnt that good at math so they haven't figured out how Melta's are not really better then Plasma.

Dandelion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sure, he adds one shot.
Or he adds a Markerlight counter(which a Stratagem can multiply to 3).
Or he brings Markerlight Drones.
Or Shield Drones.
Or just Gun Drones.

The Fireblade brings something aside from just his Aura.

1) an extra shot for 40 pts (the same cost as your entire infantry squad)

He adds a single shot in and of himself. That's what Daedalus was saying--although, realistically, it's going to be 2 extra shots at most range brackets since 15" is a silly amount of range for Rapid Fire.

You're also ignoring that 40 points is the same points cost as a Company Commander or a Tempestor Prime(the Scion equivalent of a Platoon Commander, but as an HQ choice).

2) reroll ones and advance and fire IF he didn't shoot (also costs CP) and not guaranteed. Would only increase hits by 8%.

Reroll Ones, Destroyer+Seeker Missiles hitting at BS, Advance and Fire for every Tau Empire unit firing at the targeted unit.
Additionally, my bad, the Stratagem adds D3+1(which means a minimum of 2 with a maximum of 4) Markerlight Counters.

3-5) Costs extra points and can be taken in their own squads without a Fireblade anyway.

Use up FA slots otherwise.

If I had the choice, I would scrap all that for IG orders in a heartbeat.
-FRFSRF: double your basic weapon shots (stupid good, only Guilliman's aura is better and he's like 400 pts)

It doubles your basic weapon shots for 9/10 models in an Infantry Squad. It loses its effectiveness if you have a HWT and/or Special Weapon in the squad since FRFSRF doesn't apply to them.

-Move, Move, Move: Unit can potentially move a total of 19" on average in the turn. (stupid good again, very useful for objectives, no one else has this)
-Get back in the fight: withdraw and still fire (again, very useful)
etc...

None of which can stack.

You understand this, right? You cannot, outside of a specific Relic and rolling 4+s, issue multiple Orders to a single unit. It's pointless to say how great all the Orders are because there will NEVER be a situation where you have more than two active at a time.

And for a total of 10 pts you can triple the range of the effect. (two vox-casters). No one else gets that.

And what's carrying the Vox-Caster?
An Infantry Squad, Scion Squad, Veteran Squad, or a Command Squad--or burning a CP while mounted in a Chimera(a thing that Chimeras are still paying for, pointswise, BTW).

In any regards, you do actually have Warlord Traits right now that boost up Aura ranges--and Tyranids have the Sporocyst which boosts up Synapse Range.

IG orders are FAR superior to any basic aura in the game because they are versatile and powerful. The number of orders per commander is negligible compared to their points cost. I honestly wish all commander auras had been based off of IG orders in how they function, their limits, and the options given. As opposed to reroll 1s all day.

The "numbers of orders per commander" is absolutely important to consider. Platoon Commanders(20pt Elite choice) issue 1 Order/turn. Company Commanders(30 pt HQ choice) issue 2 Orders/turn. The "Master of Command" Warlord Trait grants an additional Order for your Warlord(assuming they have Voice of Command/Tank Orders) or Creed are the only way to issue 3 Orders/turn.

That's 5 point Guardsmen vs 7 point Fire Warriors. Considering that people are ok with Fire Warriors at 8 pts, it means that even at 5ppm, guard infantry is still undercosted.

Most people aren't okay with Fire Warriors at 8 points, just like they weren't okay with Rangers or Vanguard at around that point bracket.

Also, that extra 6" doesn't help much when the Fireblade's ability only works at 15", whereas FRFSRF works up to 24".

FRFSRF also only applies to a single squad while the Fireblade's ability applies to every squad within 6" of him.
And you can boost that range up to 18 inches with a Drone...meaning that you're 6" shy of the Lasguns' maximum range with your freaking Rapid Fire range.

That's an extra 9" of outshooting Tau.

That's an extra 9" of outshooting the Tau while probably having no bonus armor save thanks to Markerlights being able to remove the bonus for being in cover.

Even so, at 30" 10 FW are only going to kill 2 Guardsmen a turn, that's 5 turns to kill one squad. They'd never make their points back in a game at that rate. That's hardly threatening.

Now figure out how many Guardsmen are going to be lost to a Morale Test.

The Tau probably aren't going to lose anyone since they come with the Bonding Knife Ritual, meaning that any Morale Test roll of a 6 is automatically passed.

kurhanik wrote:


Vanquishers for example are kind of garbage, but if they are buffed to true tank killers, then they'd be too strong without a big points increase. What would be a good middle ground where they are actually good at their job while also not becoming an auto-take?

S9 AP-4, done. Not amazing, still actually slightly worse than a battlecannon against T6/7, but more functional against against heavy armor (Knights, other Russ tanks, Land Raiders, etc) for its cost.

Alteratively, AP-4 and reroll failed wounds against units with the "Vehicle" keyword, makes it even more effective against tanks of all kinds than just straight S9, but not as effecient against monsters and heavy infantry as say, something like a Lascannon predator.

Either would work well for the vehicle at its current cost and relative to contemporaries like the Predator and Fire Prism.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:


Chimeras are probably appropriately priced, or close to it.
The problem is that a 30pt HQ character can reliably make up to two squads move 12+2d6", and a 20pt Elite character can make one move that way. Not only is that amazing, but it also helps cheaply fill up a Brigade for CP harvesting. Against that, who needs Chimeras? They can't move as far, and they make it harder to fill a Brigade.

It's not just that, almost a hundred points for a transport that typically is carrying a unit that costs much as less, particularly when a Chimera is sporting nothing more impressive than a couple of heavy bolters that are usually going to be hitting on 5's, is why they sit on shelves this edition. Even if there were no character based mobility options, the Chimera just isn't an attractive choice. It'a too expensive for the firepower and mobility it brings to such weeny units.

 Vaktathi wrote:
S9 AP-4, done. Not amazing, still actually slightly worse than a battlecannon against T6/7, but more functional against against heavy armor (Knights, other Russ tanks, Land Raiders, etc) for its cost.

Alteratively, AP-4 and reroll failed wounds against units with the "Vehicle" keyword, makes it even more effective against tanks of all kinds than just straight S9, but not as effecient against monsters and heavy infantry as say, something like a Lascannon predator.

Either would work well for the vehicle at its current cost and relative to contemporaries like the Predator and Fire Prism.

But that might make it good at its job, and any IG thing being as good as space marines at something is by definition OP. Just be glad your vanquisher hasn't been balanced to STR 4 like it should be.

More whataboutspacemarineism

 Vaktathi wrote:

kurhanik wrote:


Vanquishers for example are kind of garbage, but if they are buffed to true tank killers, then they'd be too strong without a big points increase. What would be a good middle ground where they are actually good at their job while also not becoming an auto-take?

S9 AP-4, done. Not amazing, still actually slightly worse than a battlecannon against T6/7, but more functional against against heavy armor (Knights, other Russ tanks, Land Raiders, etc) for its cost.

Alteratively, AP-4 and reroll failed wounds against units with the "Vehicle" keyword, makes it even more effective against tanks of all kinds than just straight S9, but not as effecient against monsters and heavy infantry as say, something like a Lascannon predator.

It's literally been called a monster/vehicle hunter. It not getting benefits versus monsters is like sniper weapons that can't target characters.

Bonus Strength vs Monsters/Vehicles could be a thing to do--or some weirdness floating around. Also wouldn't hurt to give it forward deployment or an 'ambush' ability where it gets negative To Hit modifiers if it doesn't move for multiple turns?

Either would work well for the vehicle at its current cost and relative to contemporaries like the Predator and Fire Prism.

I wouldn't really call those its contemporaries...the Vanquisher is kind of weirdly by itself IMO as to what it is supposed to do.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:


Chimeras are probably appropriately priced, or close to it.
The problem is that a 30pt HQ character can reliably make up to two squads move 12+2d6", and a 20pt Elite character can make one move that way. Not only is that amazing, but it also helps cheaply fill up a Brigade for CP harvesting. Against that, who needs Chimeras? They can't move as far, and they make it harder to fill a Brigade.

It's not just that, almost a hundred points for a transport that typically is carrying a unit that costs much as less, particularly when a Chimera is sporting nothing more impressive than a couple of heavy bolters that are usually going to be hitting on 5's, is why they sit on shelves this edition. Even if there were no character based mobility options, the Chimera just isn't an attractive choice. It'a too expensive for the firepower and mobility it brings to such weeny units.

Giving it back "Mobile Command Vehicle" would get me to bring mine back, as would the HBs being rolled into the main points cost.

Also could be given some rules where it counts as having a Vox-Caster not just for an Officer issuing Orders but also for units receiving them? I'd given some thought awhile ago and playtested as well them giving Guardsmen of the same <Regiment> the ability to double the number of shots they have with whatever weapon they have while they're in range to represent the Chimera carrying extra ammo supplies for those onboard.

It'd need some tweaking with FRFSRF, but it'd make a generic Infantry Squad actually interesting to field with autocannons or missile launchers and plasma guns IMO.

fe40k wrote:

Panzergraf wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

If I had the choice, I would scrap all that for IG orders in a heartbeat.
-FRFSRF: double your basic weapon shots (stupid good, only Guilliman's aura is better and he's like 400 pts)
-Move, Move, Move: Unit can potentially move a total of 19" on average in the turn. (stupid good again, very useful for objectives, no one else has this)
-Get back in the fight: withdraw and still fire (again, very useful)
etc...

-Balanced by the fact that IG has one of the worst basic weapons in the game. A similar order would be totally OP with bolters or similar weapons.
-Balanced by the fact that IG squads aren't great in close combat, so it's only used for tactical redeployment and grabbing objectives (admittedly very useful), not really used to be almost in the enemy deployment zone by turn 1. A similar order would be totally OP given to a good CC unit, or any unit in an army that relies on getting in close as soon as possible.
-Balanced by the fact that an IG squad has limited firepower to begin with, and if it has been in close combat already it has probably suffered losses.

IG gets all these rad buffs because the units that can receive said buffs aren't that powerful to begin with.


Regarding soup; there used to be rules for taking Inquisition and stuff as allies in a Guard or Space Marine army, or vise versa. You could do away with the current soup and reintroduce something like that, which made more sense and was more fun, IMHO.

IG do NOT have the worst basic weapons in the game. They outrange almost everyone (and tie for longest if Voystron Guardsman), they output equal or more amounts of firepower within 12"/15", and can further double their firepower with a cheap order.

A Guardsman is the best basic infantry handsdown - even at 5ppm, they're still the gold standard.

With orders, they become the most mobile, most shooty, and most versatile basic trooper. They're not amazing in melee, but neither is a lot of other basic troopers; at worst, they tie.

2guardsman = 8ppm
WS/BS4+, S3, T3, W1+1, A1+1, SV5+
Lasgun: 24", Rapid Fire 1+1, S3
Orders, Regiment

1 Eldar Guardian = 8ppm
WS/BS3+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV5+
Shuriken Catapult, 12", Assault 2, S4, Wound rolls of 6+ are resolved with AP-3 instead of AP-0
Battle Focus, Craftworld

2Termagaunt = 8ppm
WS/BS4+, S3, T3, W1+1, A1+1, SV6+
Fleshborer: 12", Assault 1+1, S4
Hail of Living Ammunition, Hive Fleet, [Instinctive Behaviour]

1 Tau Firewarrior = 8ppm
WS5+, BS4+, S3, T3, W1, A1, SV4+
Pulse Rifle: 30", Rapid Fire 1, S5
For the Greater Good

1 Ork Shoota Boy = 6ppm
WS3+, BS5+, S4, T4, W1, A2, SV6+
Shoota: 18", Assault 2, S4
Mob Rule

1 Skitarii Ranger = 7ppm
WS4+, BS3+, S3, T3, W1, A1/2, SV4+/6++
Galvanic Rifle: 30", Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP-1 on 6+ wound roll
Canticles, Forge World

I see you forgot something

Bobthehero wrote:That I could live with. Although personally I like to use Valkyries to allow Scions to use most of their weapons in an optimal fashion. For a turn at least...

Ordana wrote:

kurhanik wrote:

Ordana wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, I prefer mech-Scions all the way, but theres nearly 0 reasons to use them. Just deepstrike where you want them to be.

So reduce Scions by 2 ppm and make deepstrike a 2ppm upgrade. You can mech, I can airborne.

I would say that currently Scions are to cheap for what they do (as is most of the Guard codex, as I have repeatedly said) and this is coming from someone who plans to use a whole bunch of Scions in a competitive list.

78 points for 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol on 3+ BS deepstriking models is insanely good value.

Its solely in the Plasma form that they overperform really. Their base guns cannot rapid fire in their Deep Strike range, Melta cannot use its special rules in that range, and Volley Guns are heavy so they suffer a -1 to hit when using Deep Strike. Plasma meanwhile is in its sweet spot at that range.

Its why basically my #1 suggestion to nudge Scions is to swap Plasma and Melta prices to better reflect their utility. Yes, Plasma Scions would get nerfed, but on the flip side Melta Scions would have a reason to exist.

Yeah I can see that. Sadly GW isnt that good at math so they haven't figured out how Melta's are not really better then Plasma.

As I said in my other post, I'd personally also couple that price swap with a 3 point discount and a 3 point Deep Strike cost on Scions (also making it an optional rule). That way Plasma Veteran is cheaper than Plasma Scions is cheaper than Plasma Deep Strike Scion, without having to buff or nerf much anything. Though it would mean that Deep Striking Scions would be more expensive with Volley Guns, their base weapons, and Flamers....so maybe it wouldn't work as perfectly as I thought....

Vaktathi wrote:

kurhanik wrote:


Vanquishers for example are kind of garbage, but if they are buffed to true tank killers, then they'd be too strong without a big points increase. What would be a good middle ground where they are actually good at their job while also not becoming an auto-take?

S9 AP-4, done. Not amazing, still actually slightly worse than a battlecannon against T6/7, but more functional against against heavy armor (Knights, other Russ tanks, Land Raiders, etc) for its cost.

Alteratively, AP-4 and reroll failed wounds against units with the "Vehicle" keyword, makes it even more effective against tanks of all kinds than just straight S9, but not as effecient against monsters and heavy infantry as say, something like a Lascannon predator.

Either would work well for the vehicle at its current cost and relative to contemporaries like the Predator and Fire Prism.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:


Chimeras are probably appropriately priced, or close to it.
The problem is that a 30pt HQ character can reliably make up to two squads move 12+2d6", and a 20pt Elite character can make one move that way. Not only is that amazing, but it also helps cheaply fill up a Brigade for CP harvesting. Against that, who needs Chimeras? They can't move as far, and they make it harder to fill a Brigade.

It's not just that, almost a hundred points for a transport that typically is carrying a unit that costs much as less, particularly when a Chimera is sporting nothing more impressive than a couple of heavy bolters that are usually going to be hitting on 5's, is why they sit on shelves this edition. Even if there were no character based mobility options, the Chimera just isn't an attractive choice. It'a too expensive for the firepower and mobility it brings to such weeny units.

Huh, that could probably work to help the Vanquisher. At least it will have a purpose again.

 Vaktathi wrote:

kurhanik wrote:


Vanquishers for example are kind of garbage, but if they are buffed to true tank killers, then they'd be too strong without a big points increase. What would be a good middle ground where they are actually good at their job while also not becoming an auto-take?

S9 AP-4, done. Not amazing, still actually slightly worse than a battlecannon against T6/7, but more functional against against heavy armor (Knights, other Russ tanks, Land Raiders, etc) for its cost.

Alteratively, AP-4 and reroll failed wounds against units with the "Vehicle" keyword, makes it even more effective against tanks of all kinds than just straight S9, but not as effecient against monsters and heavy infantry as say, something like a Lascannon predator.

Even making it S16 AP-4 wouldn't make it too extreme. Average of 1.9 damage VS another Russ, but having an easy time of actually wounding if it hits. Or make it S8 that doubles to S16 when firing at Vehicles, or just something that at least makes it at least better VS tanks than the generic battle tank.

Panzergraf wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

If I had the choice, I would scrap all that for IG orders in a heartbeat.
-FRFSRF: double your basic weapon shots (stupid good, only Guilliman's aura is better and he's like 400 pts)
-Move, Move, Move: Unit can potentially move a total of 19" on average in the turn. (stupid good again, very useful for objectives, no one else has this)
-Get back in the fight: withdraw and still fire (again, very useful)
etc...

-Balanced by the fact that IG has one of the worst basic weapons in the game. A similar order would be totally OP with bolters or similar weapons.
-Balanced by the fact that IG squads aren't great in close combat, so it's only used for tactical redeployment and grabbing objectives (admittedly very useful), not really used to be almost in the enemy deployment zone by turn 1. A similar order would be totally OP given to a good CC unit, or any unit in an army that relies on getting in close as soon as possible.
-Balanced by the fact that an IG squad has limited firepower to begin with, and if it has been in close combat already it has probably suffered losses.

- Guard lasguns are already the most point efficient guns in the game as demonstrated in my post. FRFSRF is already OP.
- Neither are Tau or Tactical Marines. Besides, you are required to advance which means no charging. So you get to sit in rapid fire range for a whole turn. Deepstrike is already better than that, because you can try a charge.
- Again, IG squads are very point efficient. I don't like this order anyway because it cancels a core mechanic of the game.

Besides, Kanluwen was claiming that orders had drawbacks (squad limits and vox) and that those made up for how good the orders are. I disagreed on that point.

IG gets all these rad buffs because the units that can receive said buffs aren't that powerful to begin with.

Per model, sure, but per point that is false. 40 pts of Guard are way better than 40 points of literally anything else. On top of that Company Commanders are only 30 pts. You can easily spam them to make up for the order limits. Other commanders cost a lot more for less gained. So if I pay 40 pts for a Fireblade (a relatively cheap commander) and he can issue 2 orders, that's 20 pts per order. On the other hand IG Commanders effectively pay 15 pts per order which would make up for the fact that they are targeting cheaper units.

Let's assume Fireblades get FRFSRF to give to Fire Warriors.
10 FW, 1 Fireblade: 122 pts
20 Guard (2 vox), 1 commander: 120 pts
Rapid Fire:
FW: 40*.5*.666*.666= 8.87 (35.5 pts)
IS: 74*.5*.5*.5= 9.25 (74 pts)

IG squads are twice as point efficient as FW. And that's including the vox casters.

How about:
20 FW, 1 Fireblade: 202 pts
40 Guard (4 vox), 1 commander): 210 pts
Rapid fire:
FW: 80*.5*.666*.666= 17.7 (70 pts)
IS: 112*.5*.5*.5= 14 (112 pts)

So even with 2 unbuffed squads, Guard come out ahead (per point). You know what? Let's give the Fire Warriors FRFSRF and get rid of the IG commander.

20 FW, 1 Fireblade: 202 pts
40 Guard (w/ vox): 180 pts
Rapid Fire:
FW: 80*.5*.666*.666= 17.7 (70 pts)
IS: 76*.5*.5*.5= 9.5 (76 pts)

Guard are still ahead in points. Even after I took their orders away and gave them to the other side, they still win. Not only that, they started with 20 fewer points and they have useless vox-casters! I can only conclude that Guard Infantry is the one of the most powerful units in the game per point and that IG orders as they are would not be any more OP in any other faction then they are with Guard.

But I digress, my only point was that auras should have been handled like orders:
-For example: A fireblade can issue two orders per turn to units within 6". He chooses Volley Fire to increase attacks by 1.
This would discourage huddling 10 units around an HQ and open up the possibility of different orders (similar to Move! Move! Move!). They shouldn't be identical to Guard orders, they should just be issued the same way.

You need a command squad with a vox for the commander to issue orders via vox to the two squads.
Also, while commanders are only 30 points, they cost HQ slots and have very limited utility outside of issuing orders.
And Tau already have many ways of getting flexible firepower in their lists. The guard is by nature inflexible, save for a few elite choices.
Sure, Tactical Squads aren't CC beasts, but many other Space Marine units are.
You keep ignoring that factions are different and just compare (barely) comparable base infantry units. Your math is irrelevant.

Panzergraf wrote:
You need a command squad with a vox for the commander to issue orders via vox to the two squads.
Also, while commanders are only 30 points, they cost HQ slots and have very limited utility outside of issuing orders.
And Tau already have many ways of getting flexible firepower in their lists. The guard is by nature inflexible, save for a few elite choices.
Sure, Tactical Squads aren't CC beasts, but many other Space Marine units are.
You keep ignoring that factions are different and just compare (barely) comparable base infantry units. Your math is irrelevant.

Each base infantry unit is quite comparable to each other (even across different Factions) except for AM since that army throws any resemblance of balance and logic right in the water

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sure, he adds one shot.
Or he adds a Markerlight counter(which a Stratagem can multiply to 3).
Or he brings Markerlight Drones.
Or Shield Drones.
Or just Gun Drones.

The Fireblade brings something aside from just his Aura.

1) an extra shot for 40 pts (the same cost as your entire infantry squad)

He adds a single shot in and of himself. That's what Daedalus was saying--although, realistically, it's going to be 2 extra shots at most range brackets since 15" is a silly amount of range for Rapid Fire.

You're also ignoring that 40 points is the same points cost as a Company Commander or a Tempestor Prime(the Scion equivalent of a Platoon Commander, but as an HQ choice).

If 15" rapid fire is good, Steel Legion must be OP.

2) reroll ones and advance and fire IF he didn't shoot (also costs CP) and not guaranteed. Would only increase hits by 8%.

Reroll Ones, Destroyer+Seeker Missiles hitting at BS, Advance and Fire for every Tau Empire unit firing at the targeted unit.
Additionally, my bad, the Stratagem adds D3+1(which means a minimum of 2 with a maximum of 4) Markerlight Counters.

I'm sure you're single 40 pt squad is quivering with fear as I spend 1 CP and several 3+ BS seeker missiles on them.

3-5) Costs extra points and can be taken in their own squads without a Fireblade anyway.

Use up FA slots otherwise.

Never an issue.

If I had the choice, I would scrap all that for IG orders in a heartbeat.
-FRFSRF: double your basic weapon shots (stupid good, only Guilliman's aura is better and he's like 400 pts)

It doubles your basic weapon shots for 9/10 models in an Infantry Squad. It loses its effectiveness if you have a HWT and/or Special Weapon in the squad since FRFSRF doesn't apply to them.

-Move, Move, Move: Unit can potentially move a total of 19" on average in the turn. (stupid good again, very useful for objectives, no one else has this)
-Get back in the fight: withdraw and still fire (again, very useful)
etc...

None of which can stack.

You understand this, right? You cannot, outside of a specific Relic and rolling 4+s, issue multiple Orders to a single unit. It's pointless to say how great all the Orders are because there will NEVER be a situation where you have more than two active at a time.

Oh. I'm perfectly aware, my brother plays Guard and we switch armies from time to time. It seems though, that you misinterpreted my point. Aura abilities only do one thing. Volley fire requires FW to be within 15" to work. Orders, like move move move, give you options for when you are not trying to shoot something. And it's a pretty dang good one.

And for a total of 10 pts you can triple the range of the effect. (two vox-casters). No one else gets that.

And what's carrying the Vox-Caster?
An Infantry Squad, Scion Squad, Veteran Squad, or a Command Squad--or burning a CP while mounted in a Chimera(a thing that Chimeras are still paying for, pointswise, BTW).

In any regards, you do actually have Warlord Traits right now that boost up Aura ranges--and Tyranids have the Sporocyst which boosts up Synapse Range.

I imagine the squad he is standing next to that he can also order? It's not like the board is 10 ft long. He only needs to be in range of one vox.
Didn't know Tyranids had that, but voxes work on any commander so there's that.

IG orders are FAR superior to any basic aura in the game because they are versatile and powerful. The number of orders per commander is negligible compared to their points cost. I honestly wish all commander auras had been based off of IG orders in how they function, their limits, and the options given. As opposed to reroll 1s all day.

The "numbers of orders per commander" is absolutely important to consider. Platoon Commanders(20pt Elite choice) issue 1 Order/turn. Company Commanders(30 pt HQ choice) issue 2 Orders/turn. The "Master of Command" Warlord Trait grants an additional Order for your Warlord(assuming they have Voice of Command/Tank Orders) or Creed are the only way to issue 3 Orders/turn.

2 orders per turn would actually matter if your commanders were 100 pts. My Tau commander's aura only works once per game and he's 150 pts.

That's 5 point Guardsmen vs 7 point Fire Warriors. Considering that people are ok with Fire Warriors at 8 pts, it means that even at 5ppm, guard infantry is still undercosted.

Most people aren't okay with Fire Warriors at 8 points, just like they weren't okay with Rangers or Vanguard at around that point bracket.

ok, I'll take 7 point FW. But even so, the 5 ppm Guard would be on par with FW per point. That's balance mate. I'll even suggest pulse rifles go down to S4 and IG sergeants get lasguns to make it more even against any target.

Also, that extra 6" doesn't help much when the Fireblade's ability only works at 15", whereas FRFSRF works up to 24".

FRFSRF also only applies to a single squad while the Fireblade's ability applies to every squad within 6" of him.
And you can boost that range up to 18 inches with a Drone...meaning that you're 6" shy of the Lasguns' maximum range with your freaking Rapid Fire range.

That's an extra 9" of outshooting Tau.

That's an extra 9" of outshooting the Tau while probably having no bonus armor save thanks to Markerlights being able to remove the bonus for being in cover.

And Steel Legion can pay an opportunity cost and get Rapid Fire 18". How about Vostroyans? Also, Markerlights only work on a single enemy squad. Kinda like orders except it cost me at least 80 pts and maybe a CP and it's still not guaranteed. God forbid I move and fire my markerlights. And IG commanders are 30 pts and boost 2 squads. Hmm...

Even so, at 30" 10 FW are only going to kill 2 Guardsmen a turn, that's 5 turns to kill one squad. They'd never make their points back in a game at that rate. That's hardly threatening.

Now figure out how many Guardsmen are going to be lost to a Morale Test.

The Tau probably aren't going to lose anyone since they come with the Bonding Knife Ritual, meaning that any Morale Test roll of a 6 is automatically passed.

Really? 2 per turn is 1/6 chance of losing one guy. That's barely a guy per game. Throw in a banner for like 10 pts and you've foiled my plan. Or a commissar if you're that worried about it...

 Marmatag wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
I don't disagree wirh that, I disagree with the 5ppm cost.

Well everyone else pays more than 2ppm, so i don't know how you're coming up with that number.

Reivers pay 2ppm for the same ability.

Assault marines pay 3ppm for deep strike, 10” move, and fly.

Panzergraf wrote:
You need a command squad with a vox for the commander to issue orders via vox to the two squads.
Also, while commanders are only 30 points, they cost HQ slots and have very limited utility outside of issuing orders.
And Tau already have many ways of getting flexible firepower in their lists. The guard is by nature inflexible, save for a few elite choices.
Sure, Tactical Squads aren't CC beasts, but many other Space Marine units are.
You keep ignoring that factions are different and just compare (barely) comparable base infantry units. Your math is irrelevant.

1) No you don't. It just says a vox caster. It can be part of the squad itself. Besides we're assuming within 6" anyway otherwise the Fireblade can't do nuffin'.
2) Just make another battalion: 2 Commanders + 4 IS goes for 220 pts. Or just go full brigade+battalion. How many other factions can manage that?
3) Orders are very flexible already. Tau firepower is heavily overcosted: 300 pts for 3 fusion crisis...that's 70 guardsmen worth of points and then some. How about a 22 pt rail rifle that's equivalent to a 7 pt plasma gun?
4) Even so, they wouldn't be able to charge that turn because move move move forces an advance. The best case scenario is they hit you by turn 2. They can also deepstrike and get the same result.
5) Infantry Squads and Strike Teams are as comparable as you get. Fire Warriors are just Guardsmen in better armor with a better gun. They fulfill the EXACT same role.

Anyway your point was that Guard orders would be OP on other units. I proved that FRFSRF is not OP when given to Tau. The math is more relevant than your lazy dismissal. (did you even read the math?)

 argonak wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
I don't disagree wirh that, I disagree with the 5ppm cost.

Well everyone else pays more than 2ppm, so i don't know how you're coming up with that number.

Reivers pay 2ppm for the same ability.

Assault marines pay 3ppm for deep strike, 10” move, and fly.

Deepstrike is situational, you can't price it the same for every unit because it is not equivalent. It totally depends of weapons options, statlines, etc... (But yeah you are correct, Marmatag was wrong in his assertion)